Question for theists, what exactly was god doing before he created the universe???
Offline Lets assume your right for the sake of discussion and the universe was created by a god that has always been. What exactly was god doing for an eternity surrounded by nothingless before he spontaneously decided "Im bored". Im mean it doesnt matter how long ago he created the universe, he still would have existed for eternity before it. Just sitting around (wait not sitting he hadn't created chairs yet) doing nothing FOREVER. Furthermore down the train of thought, if something has always been is it possible for it at anytime to spontaneously create something. As far i can think (which could certainly be a further distance) i can't logically understand how something infinite could ever co-exist with something non-infinite, the day would have never come for him to create something.
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Anyone??? Anyone who really understands (perhaps educated) in space time, infiniti, etc... Or ofcoarse what theists think god was doing before he created the universe???
*Crickets make cricket sounds*
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Well, speaking as a cosmology geek, I can point out that the question cannot be sensibly asked. Follow me on this:
If nothing existed before the universe, then god could not have existed. On the other hand, if god existed, then it follows that more than nothing existed. So what is god anyway?
If he caused the universe, then we have to go with a teleological definition. Here is where it starts to get hairy. The teleological god is infinite and thus it follows that the infinite exists. Since the universe is a subset of the infinite, then the universe must have existed before god made it. So what did god actually make in the act of creation? Apparently, nothing.
I am sure that bobspence will be along presently to make a huge post that covers the same ground but in more words. And as usual, he will make more sense than I do but even so...
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How did God pass the time before the creation of the universe ? Well he had a huge collection of porno magazines and he spent all of his free time in the bathroom with the door locked.
I have no problem admitting this, I don't get it!!!
A is subset to B, how does A=universe and B=god in the hypothetical situation that god created the universe??? If god is infinit, how is the universe subset to that infiniti. Im sure this is just way above my head and knowledge and just can't wrap my head around it. Remember i was assuming god exists for the purpose of discussion and was asking "Can something that has always existed spontaneously create something, or would that day never come." To be honest i dont really understand your post, but im no great intellect, can anyone try to explain what gene is saying.
Well, a<b and b=infinite. if infinite is required for a and b exists, then a exists. Always did and always will.
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"Lets assume your right for the sake of discussion and the universe was created by a god that has always been. What exactly was god doing for an eternity surrounded by nothingless before he spontaneously decided "Im bored"."
Two quick points that may help:
(1) Time is a property of the physical universe, so the question is meaningless. There was no 'before' the creation of the universe. (This wasn't something theologians scrambled to add to Christian doctrine after Einstein, but was argued for by Augustine in the late fourth century or early fifth century.)
(2) Once you understand (1), you can see that when Christians say God is eternal, they don't mean 'eternity' in the sense of time that has never ended nor began, but in the sense of existing 'outside' time.
Re: the infinity argument, God is not numerically infinite (i.e. the concept of infinity is not understood quantitatively when predicated of God), but rather is said to be infinite in the sense that his superlative properties are without limits. Hence, the argument is premised on mistaking a qualitative conception of infinity for a quantitative one.
Edejardin
As edejardin stated, time, as far as we know, is a property of our universe, so it's meaningless to ask what God would do to "pass the time." Instead of imagining God as existing for all-time, it would be more accurate, in terms of what is usually being proposed, to imagine God as transcending time entirely.
Unfortunately, for us, the concept of "transcending time" is also rather meaningless.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
It is fun to watch theists back peddle. If you did that any faster you'd beat Danica PatricK in the Indy.
All you have done here is pretend that we can't see that you are still trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.
Don't pretend your myth is any better than Dungeons and Dragons or claims of Thor or Allah.
This psuedo philosophical bullsthit will not constitute spirit sperm or human flesh surviving rigor mortis and female adults do not pop magically out of men's ribs.
I hope you dont think by your avoidance of the fantastic claims in your response we have somehow forgotten the bullshit claims written by unscientific people.
Nothing in modern science, not even quantum mechanics, will support superstition by any name, past or present.
What happened before the universe is no more magical than what will happen after the extinction of our species or this planet for that matter. I DON'T KNOW is fine until we get new information.
But just like you cannot turn dirt into gold, whatever went into the universe as an ingredient should not involve letting your brains fall out and insert naked assertions in as a gap answer. Allah is no more the creator of the universe than a pink unicorn.
Cognition IS NOT required for motion. Material in space moves without thinking. Clouds dont think to themselves, "I am going to drop rain here" So why would anything, even if unknown be anything magical?
If you can accept rain and earthquakes and meteors as being a result of nature and not of cognition, why would what we don't know about what happened before the big bang be anything magical? Why wouldn't it simply be unknown?
WHAT WE DO KNOW, is that humans have always had a history of believing bullshit.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
It's my GUESS that because He is infinite, He most likely had created prior to our known existence...
at this current time in our recorded human history...
we are only acknowledging our existence as it relates primarily to us as those who may have been created prior to us would have done the same thing in their time and probably so after we are gone.
.Your very soul may have existed a trillion years ago as an ant and now you've moved up in the chain and will keep doing so until you get it right....
.GOD doesn't want to lose one soul so he going to keep giving you chances whether you like it or not..
How's that for a theory?
"They say the road to hell is paved with good intentions...I must be going to Heaven because I don't have any good intentions.".BADWAY
I don't know if Bob Spense is going to pipe in on my response. But we have discussed this many times.
His argument is would be "well Brian" scientists don't talk in terms of absolutes, but probability.
I agree that absolute zero cannot be reached.
So strictly from a semantic sense one could claim, "My pink unicorn IS a probibility because we cant know everything. BUT, how likely?"
I would say 0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001
What exactly, would I be risking by tossing such garbage asside even if "technically" because we talk in terms of likelihood?
If we are going to conflate not being able to reach absolute zero to a 50/50 proposition then all absurdities are possible.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Just as good as any other unsubstantiated untestable bullshit utterance.
I can fart a Lamborghini out of my ass. Lamborghinis exist. My ass exists and since you have never seen me do it, I can because you cant prove I cant.
I can make shit up too.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
I don't see you but do you exist....I haven't touched you or felt you, or seen you so how do I know your just not part of some computer program communicating with me.
Can you prove your real?
Responding back isn't proof!
Because I'm communicating with you lends you an air of credibility and that in itself is incredible seeing that we don't agree!
"They say the road to hell is paved with good intentions...I must be going to Heaven because I don't have any good intentions.".BADWAY
BigUniverse wrote,
"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."
If you really think this pseudo philosophical mental masturbation constitutes scientific method, you need help. You know damned well this is garbage.
If you think I am nothing more than a computer program please take your meds, and Elvis is dead fyi.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
This is where the theist falsely equates their ideas as being equal to scientific theory. Naked assertions will never constitute good use of logic. You start with a naked assertion anything that follows is just as hollow as the starting point. Garbage in, garbage out.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Just because you try and use big words now only goes to show your a computer response trying to sound like an educated human....
you hate the argument I proposed because you can't deny the logic behind it even if it APPEARS illogical!
but like I always say Thanks for playing!!!!
"They say the road to hell is paved with good intentions...I must be going to Heaven because I don't have any good intentions.".BADWAY
"It is fun to watch theists back peddle."
"Back peddle" is a relative term. From what precisely did I back peddle?
"All you have done here is pretend that we can't see that you are still trying to fit a square peg into a round hole."
Are you implying that I've contradicted myself? If so, precisely where and precisely how?
"Don't pretend your myth is any better than Dungeons and Dragons or claims of Thor or Allah."
This isn't even relevant, but I guarantee I can provide much stronger grounds for my beliefs than you could for, say, D&D or Thor.
"I hope you dont think by your avoidance of the fantastic claims in your response we have somehow forgotten the bullshit claims written by unscientific people."
What precisely have I avoided? You obviously know how to make charges; can you now please demonstrate that you have the ability to defend them?
"Nothing in modern science, not even quantum mechanics, will support superstition by any name, past or present."
That depends upon whether you understand consistency with X to be support for X. That aside, I'm not exactly as surprised as you suggest that methodological naturalism will not yield superstitious conclusions.
"What happened before the universe is no more magical than what will happen after the extinction of our species or this planet for that matter. I DON'T KNOW is fine until we get new information."
Um, I think you need to reread the question. If someone is asking what God did before he created the universe, he's asking how one can make sense of an eternal god who created a finite world, he's not asking for a scientific explanation of what happened before the Big Bang. So, if you have any real points to make now -- that is, points that are both relevant and, well, supported -- I'd be happy to see them.
Edejardin
Can we get a moderator to fix this stream. It is far too WIDE!!!!
"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."
VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"
If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?
You can't "prove" it. But, you can be certain enough for any practicable purpose. For one, you know that people chat with each other on online forums. Second, we know that, so far, there is no AI capable of consistently passing the turing test, even against uninformed humans. When the humans are told beforehand that one of the individuals they're communicating with is a machine, the AI is caught virtually every time. So, it's not as simple as whether something is proven or not proven; there is a giant gray area from certainty to uncertainty.
On another topic, the scientific method doesn't just deal with what we can see or touch. That would be a strawman of the scientific method. In fact, one of the main goals of science is to gain knowledge about things that we can't explore with only our senses. We use technology, evidence, and logic to form tentative conclusions.
Yeah, I think Brian messed it up with his zeros.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
OH SHIT THE THEISTS GOT ME! THERE IS A GOD!
This wide thread is a result of god smiting us cootie spreaders.
NO BODY PUTS GOD IN THE CORNER!
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog