The reasons I Believe in God! Part 1
Offline Okay, okay simmer down you atheistic wolves. I know your salivating at the mouth to tear me a new one...but hey It ain't like I've been reamed before....so any responses you make to dissect my stories will not contain a response from me because I need not justify my experiences...either you believe or you don't...and I'm not looking for compassion, sympathy or even some sort of analyzation of my stories. Just read if you want or don't but you'll never be able to justify your answer as luck or coincidence....
Why I believe in God
Let me start off by admitting my limitations as a writer or knowledge of certain subjects but bear with me as I try to the best of my ability or lack there of to explain why I believe in a God that I can't see, touch or describe yet I do but it isn't the way you would suspect. It is beyond human comprehension to grasp something without substance which is clearly why most atheists and agnostics think the way they do.
My whole life has been one of constant turmoil, a continual whirlwind of bovine fertilizer swirling about since before I was even born.
My name is an anagram for the reason I can't seem to hold a job! True! My name is John Kevin Badwey. Rearrange the letters and you have a question. Why A Job End Kevin? At 42 yrs of age I have been unable to sustain a job nolonger than four years and within my 42 years of societal nonexistence, I have held over 30 some odd jobs .
I lost a brother 2 years prior to my unfortunate entry into this spherical cesspool we call mother Earth. My sperm slinging dad if you want to call him that decided I was nolonger wanted as a son early on, so me and my mother moved to Texas from the idyllic land of ruby red slippers and yellow brick roads.
At a very early age, I was forced to commit oral sex on a neighbor in front of my friends. Could this have been the window to explore bisexuality as I got older or my eventual crossdressing that began around when I was nine? Possibly, however clothing has nothing to do with ones orientation but I do see how it could lead to other things. Like smoking a cigarette might lead into smoking reefers or experimenting with other addicting substances.
I had a couple of step dads that really had no interest in raising me to be a man. So I'm still learning.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-
In 6th grade I was the most picked on kid in school. Even the teachers hated me. I made straight F's and still was promoted to the 7th grade of where I spent the next 3 years. I know, insert your own, "Well that explains his stupidity" comments. Feel better bout yourselves...good! Glad I could be of service!
Through out the years, jobs coming and going. I dropped out of the 12th grade to get out of my obligation to join the Marine Corps (Semper Fi) because I wanted to pursue my music. During that summer of 87 my mother had her first asthmatic attack, as a result of having C.O.P.D., Asthma, Chronic Bronchitis and emphysema. If I hadn't have been there she would have died then while I was away at bootcamp but, because I was there, she survived 10 more long agonizing years!
During my life since 6th grade,I became an outcast among my own family because I befriended black people. In turn, I was the proverbial black sheep of the family, almost literally! My great grand daddy was in the clan and raised his family as bigots. My mother would not enforce that on me but rather let me discover on my own on whether I would want to associate with black people. As time progressed throughout my high school years I became part of the hip hop culture because I could relate to it's message like kids of the 50's could relate to rock n roll.
November 4th, 3am 1997 I made the decision to have the life support pulled and by 5am she was flat lined, mind you, that ,was the lonliest time I ever felt. I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy, not even on the Devil himself!
Since then I have held many jobs, and since 1999 respectively I have lived either in a car, van, truck, on the street, with friends, etc. I have slept in front of a Dumpster, on a park bench, in a concrete ditch, in a stairwell, an elevator presently but still I believe in God because He has sustained me. Without begging for handouts, people have provided food, laundry, etc. and I didn't ask for it.
Just recently my storage was 2 months behind and my lock had been cut. Everything I owned, my clothes, family pictures, artwork, songs, collectibles etc. would be going up for auction. (Listen) Just a little over a week ago...realizing I was going to lose everything, I began cutting my ties here. I was letting everyone know that If I lose my stuff I'd be leaving and starting my life anew somewhere else. Maybe live next to you Thomathy....haha that would be fun! Interesting, but fun. Maybe not so much for you though..haha.
A gentleman from a 12 step program I was attending only as a guest came to visit me at Starbucks with his wife. He gave me 38 dollars for food or whatever and even though I tried to refuse they insisted. I thought to myself I can goto the Chinese restauraunt I normally patronize and pay for the meal they let me eat for free just a few days earlier.
It was then I met a lady of color named Sharmyn. We had exchanged a casual glance but nothing more however it was enough for her to notice me I guess. As I sat looking out the window lost in thought, she appeared at my table and inquired if I was okay. Small talk here but the result was I told her for what its worth I'm okay for the situation I'm in. I was expecting to spend at least 14 dollars right off the bat for this lunch and the one prior which was 6.98 for a buffet. She took my ticket and paid for it. I told her she didn't have to do that but instead she insisted. I could of just walked out but I went ahead and paid what I owed for the previous meal. I thought that was kind of cool...now lets' fast forward.
When I found out from an email that my storage was up for auction I knew my life here was over and the only one to blame for it is me. I had been out of work for 9 months and now I'm going to lose everything. While I'm on the phone trying to get in touch with the storage lady guess who happens to show up out of the blue...you guessed it, Sharmyn! When she came in she asked me what's going on like what's up you know...and I told her I'm about to lose my storage and to make this long story short she paid it today. 135 dollars, she paid and this was strange to me because we are not close we just met and just a few days earlier at the 12 step class I told the people there..I'm not asking for handouts or sympathy ...I just want you to pray for a miracle that my storage is some how paid. . . . . .think about that and let the imagry of this sink in before you try to explain it away as luck, or subliminal begging or whatever...just think about it.
9 months, at least 5 different people have paid for my storage and I paying for one. No job, yet during these 9 months I have not starved, hungry but not starved. And my storage is still there, I would suggest to you something greater than I is taking care of me. And i have not begged for or asked people to do what they have done....is that ontomolocosmoloestimology... or whatever you call these things or perhaps my faith is sustaining me? Curious to your thought not oyur jump to atheistic or agnostic presumptions but actual silent pondering of what i just mentioned.
Why me you may ask and not some destitute starving child in Ethiopia. Don't they deserve mercy. Yes! far more than me I assure you but the difference may be I truly Believe, or that I pray or maybe others closer in their relationship to God prayed on my behalf but nonetheless I am blessed and and no man can fault me for believing in something that came to pass.
This is one story and although it may not be to your liking again I am only explaining why I continue to believe in something so complex that no man nor his science can explain and may never be able to. God is Love without Prejudice, the Subconscious causing the conscious to without thought provide a humane service to the world or feel the twist of guilt for not doing so. On the service you may justify it by saying that is human emotion and try to rationalize it but I submit to you that that my friend is God in you and you are fighting a battle that in the end you cannot win. I try but I lose every time.
I waited to share this story because I wasn't sure if my storage would be paid...yes I too lack faith sometimes and again God showed me I need to stop doing that....W O W
"They say the road to hell is paved with good intentions...I must be going to Heaven because I don't have any good intentions.".BADWAY
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OC, the only way that I can see why you think the way you do about Craig and Habermas is you have never watched or listened to their debates.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Since when? Could I present to you a story about how my life was in shambles, took up belief in the mighty snarfwidget, and my life instantly turned around... and have you believe that I presented valid evidence?
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In other words, you agree that the gospels are not without error. In that case, Dan Barker's Easter Challenge doesn't apply to you. It only applies to biblical inerrantists.
And you have repeatedly failed to understand that whether or not I can prove there is no God is irrelevant. You're the one who is making the positive claim. My primary reason for rejecting the claim that God exists is the lack of testable evidence for the existence of such a being.
Besides, proof is only for pure mathematics and distilleries. What we have to deal with is logical arguments and the available evidence.
It is often said that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence but that doesn't hold true in all cases. In the case of an activist God (i.e. a God that frequently intervenes in human affairs) such as the God described in the Bible, there should be plenty of evidence of its interventions. The lack of such testable evidence argues against the existence of such a being.
If I understand correctly, you're saying that you think atheists should be able to show that there is no possibility that God was in any way involved with the origin of molecules. If so, that's simply ridiculous and it's got nothing to do with what most atheists claim. I think that most people who consider the universe from a naturalistic perspective would be more likely to claim that there is no need to resort to the supernatural or the divine for the origin of matter, etc..
Reality is the graveyard of the gods.
The fact that I make an effort to practice rational thought is evidence that I value it.
Reality is the graveyard of the gods.
It is my view that all supposed rational grounds for believing in God are fatally flawed.
Personal testimony -- especially, as in this case, if it amounts to personal internal experience -- is not something that is in any way testable. It simply does not qualify as a sound reason to think that something is actually true.
[shrug] I'm not the one making the positive claim.
Reality is the graveyard of the gods.
Thanks. Had a listen to the Kurtz one. Didn't notice the old guy being made to look silly. Also, I remember your guy ganging up on Hitchens together with three other theists a while ago. He didn't make much of an impression there either.
Oh well, philosophers and theologists have to make a living, I suppose.
In a very, very, VERY strange way, sure.
So strange, in fact, as to not be one at all.
I think this deserves further comment.
Personal experience is a valid way for you to find out for yourself something about your inner state. For example, if your personal experience is that you are feeling happy and content, then you are justified in believing that you are feeling happy and content. However, if your personal experience is that little green men on Mars are communicating with you by means that you alone can detect, it no longer has to do only with your inner state you are not justified in believing it without testable external support for that belief.
We humans are easily fooled and we easily fool ourselves -- this is true even of some of the smartest among us*. Scientific methods of investigation have been specifically developed to compensate for the human propensity for self-deception (and also for the tendency of some to intentionally try to deceive others). That's why, when I speak of acceptable evidence, I use the phrase "testable evidence".
What one might consider to be a personal experience of God, if it is not testable, might convince the individual who experienced it but it is untestable and, therefore, should not be taken as valid evidence for anything. If I personally had such an experience, I would not consider it valid evidence for God unless there was some means by which I could subject it to proper scientific investigation and such investigation strongly supported the view that it was an experience of God (in my opinion, that's an extremely unlikely scenario, obviously).
So, no, I do not accept your claim that "[p]ersonal experience and testimony is a valid and justified basis for belief."
---
* For more on that, see Michael Shermer's Why People Believe Weird Things.
Reality is the graveyard of the gods.
Personally, I'm not impressed by formal debates, regardless of which side is said to have prevailed. In my view, the only thing a debate usually settles is the question of who is the more skilled debater and showman. Debates are sport. They're for entertainment, not for distinguishing between reality and nonsense.
Reality is the graveyard of the gods.
Very true.
And that one wasn't even entertaining. What a gyp.
Now that sounds interesting. Good book ?
Does badway really need 3 threads to talk about himself?
It kinda comes naturally to people who think they are important enough for the creator of the universe to take a personal interest in them.
BADWAY, i posted a topic invting you to have a discussion with Cory-T the anti-gay theist who thinks the T-rex amy have been a herbivore. I would really like to see what you have to say to eachother, i think it would make for great discussion. I would like to know what you think of him calling you "a perversion of the natural created order". Dont worry, hes not very good with words.
BADWAY, i have posted a topic inviting to a discussion with Cory-T the anti gay thiest who thinks the T-rex may have been a herbivore. I would love to see what you to have to say to eachother, and especially what you think of him calling you "a perversion of the natural created order" Dont worry hes not very good with words.
Since we evolved social behaviors I suspect. Human beings have been using testimony as an acceptable form of evidence certainly for all of recorded history.
This is simply personal testimony. Sapient seems to believe your testimony is bogus.
So you reject God based on your simple unsubstantiated opinion.
This is obviously false. There are many forms of testimony that are accepted in a court of law that are not testable and are not internal experience.
Yes, you are, you just stated above that you believe "rational grounds for believing in God are fatally flawed." This is a positive claim that you have determined the presented evidence for God as invalid.
Yes, I already agreed this was VERY strange.
This is a non sequitur.
Whenever it is not supported by experiment that is repeatable. I'm interested in ordinaryclay's contention that it's possible to consider
things beyond our five terrestrial senses and I'd be pleased if some actual proof was offered relating to events, happenings and realities existing in
the particular fantasy world ordinaryclay's truth inhabits. I'd also like to point out that emphatic statement and staunch belief are not proof.
P.S. Badway - that lipstick looks hot - give me a call sometime.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
Thank you.
These are big claims. In fact your claims are not testable so by your own criteria you should throw them out.
Furthermore the claim is not that little green men are communicating with you the claim is that God is communicating. There is a substantial difference.
Sure, but this says nothing about whether testimonial evidence or personal experience are valid forms of evidence. Maybe you are fooling yourself when you believe that the only form of evidence is testable evidence.
So any experience you had the day before today that you can not empirically verify you reject as not real. This is absurd. This form of verificationism has been discredited long ago.
Then you are viewing the debate in a shallow way. It is up to the listener to overcome our simplistic tendency to be taken in by showmanship. You need to be disciplined enough to listen to the substance and ignore the extraneous "glitter" and your problem is solved. Obviously, profound and valid thoughts have come from debates. An important human skill is the ability to not be taken in by social facades.
So you do not consider any of your own thoughts? This makes no sense to be honest. Maybe that mask is causing your brain temp to rise ... dunno for sure ... just sayin ...
Edit : Picked the Craig/Tooley debate. Bit of a frustrating read, actually. Lots of stuff I heard many times before, and when things get interesting, they both run out of rebuttals. And as for anyone being made to look silly, nope, still nothing.
OC, whether you accept this or not, the thought processes of all living creatures occur in the physical world inside that big
organ between your ears that consumes 25 per cent of all the energy that goes into your mouth.
Why christians insist on elevating what we are unable to explain yet to the level of the paranormal defies my comprehension.
Of course, this is something they have a long history of doing and it pleases me to know that at least one side of the debate is
working hard to further the cause of human knowledge.
It's far more likely you think using electrical and physical processes inside your brain, than it is that you exist as an invisible soul
and that your thoughts are formed by magic.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
Yeah, it's a classic and could be considered required reading for those who want to embrace rational skepticism. Shermer, as you may know, is head of the Skeptic Society and has a background in experimental psychology.
Reality is the graveyard of the gods.
Do you have a reading comprehension disorder? I wasn't giving the reason for my atheism. I was giving my opinion about rational arguments for belief in God. Try to read what I actually write instead of what you imagine that I might be thinking.
When I speak of evidence, I'm not interested in what would be acceptable in a court of law. Rather, I'm interested in what would be scientifically acceptable.
On the off chance that you're actually interested in understanding rather that in misrepresentation, my opinion regarding the flawed nature of supposedly rational arguments for belief in God is based on the fact that I've found that every such argument with which I've been presented so far has been fatally flawed -- and I'd be surprised if there are any significant arguments for the existence of God with which I am not already familiar.
Reality is the graveyard of the gods.
Values, like thoughts and feelings, are internal. They are not directly testable. Statements about one's internal state are categorically different from claims about things that are not limited to the personal/internal. So, you are making a category error by treating any claim I might make about my internal state the same way as testable claims.
If I claim to value rational thought, I think you can legitimately choose to accept or reject that claim (or suspend judgement). That said, if you were someone who has known me for a considerable length of time, you could infer from my behaviour and my words that I value reason. It's not directly testable but it is still possible to find supporting or disconfirming evidence. Still, such evidence is not conclusive, since not even one's spouse or best friend can claim to really know one's innermost thoughts.
If the God with which you claim to have personal experience exists only within you and nowhere else, then there's nothing for me to say about it. I can believe or disbelieve but it would be my opinion and no more. However, if you claim to have personal experience of a God whose existence extends beyond your thoughts and feelings and personal experience, then I think I am justified in asking for testable evidence that such a being exists.
Reality is the graveyard of the gods.
What's a mind cult?
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
Are you actually trying to understand what I am saying? Are you honestly interested in having a conversation about these things? I'm finding it difficult to believe that are. You appear to be more interested in playing word games.
Let me expand on what I said above so that it is more difficult for you to misunderstand it -- although I am beginning to suspect that you are intent on misunderstanding what I write no matter how clearly I word it.
If you are making a claim about your internal state, you are the only one who can observe and experience it directly. If you yourself cannot believe what you experience of yourself internally, then you can't believe anything. Please understand that here I'm not talking about you convincing anyone else about your internal state. Rather, I'm talking about you having the ability to be aware of your internal state which, by definition, is not something that others can test.
On the other hand, if you make a claim about something that is not confined to your internal state, then it is something that can be accessed by minds other than your own (unless you are going to claim the ability to sense that which others cannot). At that point, it becomes testable and others are justified in asking for testable evidence.
Are you familiar with the concept of the analogy?
The only form of evidence that is scientifically and rationally acceptable is testable evidence. If the evidence cannot be tested, then accepting or rejecting it becomes simply a matter or preference. If one cannot test it, then one is equally justified in rejecting or accepting it and, consequently, it is worthless.
No, that's not what I said. Stop making straw men Why are you so keen on word games and misrepresentation?
An "experience of God" is an experience that contradicts everything we know that is testable. It is categorically different from, say, the experience of having a cup of coffee in the morning. To compare the two kinds of experience is, again, an example of a category error.
There is no need for me to respond to this since it's a straw man.
Reality is the graveyard of the gods.
I have such abilities. However, when there are superior means of getting at the truth, I am not inclined to spend my time on inferior methods such as formal debates. If you like them, I urge you to enjoy them. As for me, I think I've got better things to do.
Reality is the graveyard of the gods.
FWIW, anyone who is at all impressed by Craig's reasoning would do well to understand that he bases his position primarily on faith, not reason.
See this page: http://www.jcnot4me.com/Items/contra_craig/contra_craig.htm#Comments%20on%20Craig%27s%20Book:%20Reasonable%20Faith
Reality is the graveyard of the gods.
You know it appears to me that after all the rigamaroo back and forth ,that it is clearly evident both sides have a hard time comprehending each other ones illogical rationalizations about either position as it relates to their own sense of reality. Atheist can't prove the origin of the universe with out scientific theoretical rhetoric and so they rely on trying to dissaprove the authenticity of a historical book written by men who without question are human and are capable of making errors however when one truly studies the ancient text especially in its original form of Latin, Hebrew, and Greek one would come away knowing that there is more in the text that compliment one another than contradict each other and that is a FACT.
On the other side, it is also true I can not explain to you the definition of a Being that is both omnipotent and omniscient because the overwhelming metaphysical characteristics and dynamics of such a being would be to complicated to understand because the parameters of such a Being our beyond our comprehension and current understanding by todays logical standards.
Someone here wrote that we might even find later on, that ,gravitation as we know it may not be accurate or something to that effect. If your open minded enough to contend that even by your own current logic it is possible that certain principles that you currently perceive is true and may be found out to be false later on,then one could also say that that also opens itself to the possibilty of something you currently hold as false ,later becoming a reality.
We Christians or even ,heres a new term I made up for those who are beleivers in God but question Jesus, Elohimians, are only trying to share that reality.
The world is full of questions and rhetoric so in conclusion, both sides may be true but neither can prove the other false with out theories, rhetoric, and innuendo.
My belief has been validated by experiences that defy coincidence and luck....and as you read my life story I'm not that lucky. That's why I stopped trying to buy lottery tickets.
"They say the road to hell is paved with good intentions...I must be going to Heaven because I don't have any good intentions.".BADWAY