Life/Spirit force

Cpt_pineapple
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Life/Spirit force

I have yet another question:

 

Does an atheist, who for example, doesn't believe in Gods, but still believes in a "life/spirit force" or a "force create from mass consciousnes" "defy reality checks" much like a fundamentalist Christian or Muslim?

 

 

 

 

 

 


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Meditation.

I meditate a lot.  It helps to relieve stress and to keep me focused on my goals.  I can't imagine life without meditation.

Liberate your mind. Fuck religion.


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Luminon wrote:And now

Luminon wrote:
And now something really hard - let all thoughts cease.

I'm not sure this is as hard as you seem to think -- many people achieve this all day long.

"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers


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nigelTheBold wrote:Luminon

nigelTheBold wrote:

Luminon wrote:
And now something really hard - let all thoughts cease.

I'm not sure this is as hard as you seem to think -- many people achieve this all day long.

Well, maybe in India. But usually there is a ceaseless stream of thoughts in the background, this is why Descartes thought it to be the prerequisite for being. But this is actually pathologic. If there is a problem ahead of me, then I should start thinking, solve it, and then stop thinking. This is how it should be. Leaving a hot iron plugged in the socket in a house results in catastrophe, and so it may be with a brain running idly. Did you ever see an insane person? Let's say, a dirty, smelly homeless man, babbling to himself. I did, there is no shortage of them in my city, but the main difference between their and our mind is, that they say aloud what they think. We so-called normal people don't babble aloud, only mentally. We call it being lost in thoughts.

 

The state without thinking, but with total concentration is blissful. People achieve it in extreme sports, some also when they drive, dance or have sex. But all these activities require something, a bungee rope, a car or a horny girlfriend. But with meditation there is a chance to keep this state much longer and much deeper. Eventually, after many years of meditation (or lifetimes, better said) this blissful state becomes permanent and such an "enlightened" person can do whatever people do, (and much more) without being distracted.

ClockCat wrote:

How do you know other animals don't meditate? Please provide proof.

I'll try... The urge to meditate signifies a relatively advanced person, in term of development of consciousness. Specially here in western countries, where it's not a tradition. Less conscious people don't need to meditate, and animals (which are less evolved than humans) therefore don't meditate as well. Dreaming or relaxation is not a meditation, quite opposite.


 

 

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nigelTheBold wrote:Luminon

nigelTheBold wrote:

Luminon wrote:
And now something really hard - let all thoughts cease.

I'm not sure this is as hard as you seem to think -- many people achieve this all day long.

I'm with you on this. I meditate all day, everyday and my brain activity does not stop even when I go to sleep.

People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.


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Every conscious movement is

Every conscious movement is 'mind over matter'. No 'woo' involved.

A particular thought, which is a manifestation of a particular pattern of neuron firing, causes nerve impulses to be sent to the appropriate muscles and move some part of the body.

Our mental states have all sorts of effects on our body, due to all the nerve connections between the brain and every part of our body, some accessible by 'conscious' processes, most controlled by processes in the brain not directly involved in consciousness.

It is the idea of mind causing physical effects on objects not connected with our body, and without any sort of physical action by us, that is the domain of magicians.

 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

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:3

BobSpence1 wrote:

Every conscious movement is 'mind over matter'. No 'woo' involved.

A particular thought, which is a manifestation of a particular pattern of neuron firing, causes nerve impulses to be sent to the appropriate muscles and move some part of the body.

Our mental states have all sorts of effects on our body, due to all the nerve connections between the brain and every part of our body, some accessible by 'conscious' processes, most controlled by processes in the brain not directly involved in consciousness.

It is the idea of mind causing physical effects on objects not connected with our body, and without any sort of physical action by us, that is the domain of magicians.

 

 

 

http://www.livescience.com/health/050317_brain_interface.html

 

Wireless transmitters that allow you to control technology?

Theism is why we can't have nice things.


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ClockCat wrote:BobSpence1

ClockCat wrote:

BobSpence1 wrote:

Every conscious movement is 'mind over matter'. No 'woo' involved.

A particular thought, which is a manifestation of a particular pattern of neuron firing, causes nerve impulses to be sent to the appropriate muscles and move some part of the body.

Our mental states have all sorts of effects on our body, due to all the nerve connections between the brain and every part of our body, some accessible by 'conscious' processes, most controlled by processes in the brain not directly involved in consciousness.

It is the idea of mind causing physical effects on objects not connected with our body, and without any sort of physical action by us, that is the domain of magicians.

 

 

http://www.livescience.com/health/050317_brain_interface.html

 

Wireless transmitters that allow you to control technology?

Ha Ha!

Of course, depends whether you classify radio transmission as a 'physical' connection - it is certainly a part of 'physics', as distinct from the 'esoteric'.

But yes, that is remote 'mind over matter', but I suspect not in the sense someone like Luminon would be considering....

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

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nigelTheBold

nigelTheBold wrote:

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

I have yet another question:

Does an atheist, who for example, doesn't believe in Gods, but still believes in a "life/spirit force" or a "force create from mass consciousnes" "defy reality checks" much like a fundamentalist Christian or Muslim?

Not at all! Life force can be measured. Just do a blood count of midichlorians, and you're all set.

A'hem. That is only a determination of ones connection to the Force, not a measurement of how much of the Force resides within a being, which is equal across all life. A mosquito and a blue whale are equal in the Force.

"Ok let me steer this question a little...Do any of you believe that if you put positive energy into the world, the world will give you back positive energy? Do you believe what goes around comes around?"

Yes, though not in any kind of mystical way. People are a bit less likely to screw you over when you're nice to them.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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Brian37 wrote:So? What your

Brian37 wrote:

So? What your are saying is "My naked assertion doesn't make demands. My naked assertion can make anyone feel happy without being offended."

There is no "larger entity". Please do not conflate separate componants of the universe from the atom to the gama ray being equal to a "force". Luke Skywaker nor Darth Vader are responsible for the warm fuzzies humans like to claim are real than they are when we don't feel so good.

How about "shit happens", both things that benefit us and things that dont?

Actually, I don't even make a naked assertion. I don't assert it to be true, I just consider the idea now and again, so chill. (I'm suprised you managed to hold back your oft-used "fart a lamborghini" response.)

-Triften


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Cpt_pineapple wrote: What

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

 

What about Meditation?

I don't know a lot about meditation but I don't know of any reason to think that there's anything paranormal happening when someone meditates.

 

Cpt_pineapple wrote:
Mind over Matter? Such as "thinking away pain" for example,

I've used my mind to remove pain from time to time.  I find that, for me, it works best with certain kinds of headaches.  I have to be in a very quiet place where I can be comfortable and undisturbed.  Then I close my eyes and focus on the pain.  In my imagination, it's as if the pain is somewhere inside me and my conscious moves toward it.  When I find the pain, I enfold it and feel it fully.  Then, when I am the pain and the pain is me (remember, I'm imagining all this), I calm it, quiet it, and it is gone while I remain. 

It's a neat trick but it takes some practice.  I don't think there's anything "weird" happening there.  I think it's just a matter of finding ways of controlling one's body more effectively.

 

Cpt_pineapple wrote:
or over coming overwhelming odds again and again.

I'd need something more specific in order to comment on that.

 

 

 

 

Reality is the graveyard of the gods.


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I believe in a life force,

I believe in a life force, it's called electrodynamics


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fishpaste wrote:I believe in

fishpaste wrote:

I believe in a life force, it's called electrodynamics

That is not unique to 'life' of course.

And doesn't remotely correspond to the ideas of "Life Force" referred to in the OP.

FWIW it was a core subject of my training as an Electrical Engineer.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

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BobSpence1 wrote:fishpaste

BobSpence1 wrote:

fishpaste wrote:

I believe in a life force, it's called electrodynamics

That is not unique to 'life' of course.

And doesn't remotely correspond to the ideas of "Life Force" referred to in the OP.

FWIW it was a core subject of my training as an Electrical Engineer.

 

You have to learn quantum electrodynamics to be an electrical engineer? Christ they don't play around these days.

 

In a sense I think it does quite relate. Pretty much everything that's made out of anything corresponds to it's rules, and understanding any even mildly "spiritual phenomena" will inevitably end up in a discussion about electrodynamics and how the brain interacts with reality on the quantum scale. Essentially, it's the "force" that ties us to to the world and unifies everything within it. One could argue this applies to chromodynamics or quantum gravity as well, but I don't think it's as related given our brains operate and process information via electrodynamics rather then gravitational "impulses".


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fishpaste wrote:BobSpence1

fishpaste wrote:

BobSpence1 wrote:

fishpaste wrote:

I believe in a life force, it's called electrodynamics

That is not unique to 'life' of course.

And doesn't remotely correspond to the ideas of "Life Force" referred to in the OP.

FWIW it was a core subject of my training as an Electrical Engineer.

 

You have to learn quantum electrodynamics to be an electrical engineer? Christ they don't play around these days.

Not really, it was basically classical electrodynamics, not quantum electrodynamics. They are two branches of the subject.

In a sense I think it does quite relate. Pretty much everything that's made out of anything corresponds to it's rules, and understanding any even mildly "spiritual phenomena" will inevitably end up in a discussion about electrodynamics and how the brain interacts with reality on the quantum scale. Essentially, it's the "force" that ties us to to the world and unifies everything within it. One could argue this applies to chromodynamics or quantum gravity as well, but I don't think it's as related given our brains operate and process information via electrodynamics rather then gravitational "impulses".

Quantum level phenomena are not really necessary to understand the processes in the brain. If anything, quantum phenomena are more relevant to computers, since semiconductors quite specifically rely on quantum-scale effects.

But actually, whether the brain or a computer, the high-level behaviour is a function of the way the bits are connected and organised, not so much what particular low-level physics they rely on for their functioning.

And the world is not all that 'unified'. Most of the Universe is totally beyond our reach, retreating from us at greater than the speed of light due to the accelerating expansion of space-time.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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BobSpence1 wrote:fishpaste

BobSpence1 wrote:

fishpaste wrote:

BobSpence1 wrote:

fishpaste wrote:

I believe in a life force, it's called electrodynamics

That is not unique to 'life' of course.

And doesn't remotely correspond to the ideas of "Life Force" referred to in the OP.

FWIW it was a core subject of my training as an Electrical Engineer.

 

You have to learn quantum electrodynamics to be an electrical engineer? Christ they don't play around these days.

Not really, it was basically classical electrodynamics, not quantum electrodynamics. They are two branches of the subject.

Quote:

In a sense I think it does quite relate. Pretty much everything that's made out of anything corresponds to it's rules, and understanding any even mildly "spiritual phenomena" will inevitably end up in a discussion about electrodynamics and how the brain interacts with reality on the quantum scale. Essentially, it's the "force" that ties us to to the world and unifies everything within it. One could argue this applies to chromodynamics or quantum gravity as well, but I don't think it's as related given our brains operate and process information via electrodynamics rather then gravitational "impulses".

Quantum level phenomena are not really necessary to understand the processes in the brain. If anything, quantum phenomena are more relevant to computers, since semiconductors quite specifically rely on quantum-scale effects.

But actually, whether the brain or a computer, the high-level behaviour is a function of the way the bits are connected and organised, not so much what particular low-level physics they rely on for their functioning.

And the world is not all that 'unified'. Most of the Universe is totally beyond our reach, retreating from us at greater than the speed of light due to the accelerating expansion of space-time.

 

Indeed, Synapses and pathways are what count, not particular potential differences or quantum dots, though the organization of these, and their operation are dependent upon the principles information obeys, and information is a crucial element to QED, and is bonded to it in all it's forms. "What is a thought?" and "What is love" and "Who am I?" and "How do all of these things work together?" are all at their very core, questions that deal with QED.

 

I'm not saying that once you learn QED you know how everything in the world works from Music theory to astronomy, I'm simply saying it's pretty much where everything comes from, which gives it that quality of being the pantheist's "god" figure if you're into that stuff. For me I just consider it a crucial piece of the puzzle, and something which will play a critical role if we are ever to find the grand unified theory (though you appear to be a cynic about that as well Sticking out tongue).


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fishpaste wrote:BobSpence1

fishpaste wrote:

BobSpence1 wrote:

fishpaste wrote:

BobSpence1 wrote:

fishpaste wrote:

I believe in a life force, it's called electrodynamics

That is not unique to 'life' of course.

And doesn't remotely correspond to the ideas of "Life Force" referred to in the OP.

FWIW it was a core subject of my training as an Electrical Engineer.

 

You have to learn quantum electrodynamics to be an electrical engineer? Christ they don't play around these days.

Not really, it was basically classical electrodynamics, not quantum electrodynamics. They are two branches of the subject.

Quote:

In a sense I think it does quite relate. Pretty much everything that's made out of anything corresponds to it's rules, and understanding any even mildly "spiritual phenomena" will inevitably end up in a discussion about electrodynamics and how the brain interacts with reality on the quantum scale. Essentially, it's the "force" that ties us to to the world and unifies everything within it. One could argue this applies to chromodynamics or quantum gravity as well, but I don't think it's as related given our brains operate and process information via electrodynamics rather then gravitational "impulses".

Quantum level phenomena are not really necessary to understand the processes in the brain. If anything, quantum phenomena are more relevant to computers, since semiconductors quite specifically rely on quantum-scale effects.

But actually, whether the brain or a computer, the high-level behaviour is a function of the way the bits are connected and organised, not so much what particular low-level physics they rely on for their functioning.

And the world is not all that 'unified'. Most of the Universe is totally beyond our reach, retreating from us at greater than the speed of light due to the accelerating expansion of space-time.

 

Indeed, Synapses and pathways are what count, not particular potential differences or quantum dots, though the organization of these, and their operation are dependent upon the principles information obeys, and information is a crucial element to QED, and is bonded to it in all it's forms. "What is a thought?" and "What is love" and "Who am I?" and "How do all of these things work together?" are all at their very core, questions that deal with QED.

 

I'm not saying that once you learn QED you know how everything in the world works from Music theory to astronomy, I'm simply saying it's pretty much where everything comes from, which gives it that quality of being the pantheist's "god" figure if you're into that stuff. For me I just consider it a crucial piece of the puzzle, and something which will play a critical role if we are ever to find the grand unified theory (though you appear to be a cynic about that as well Sticking out tongue).

I also did an extra subject, on Information Theory as part of my engineering degree...

The flow of information in the brain is no more dependent on QT than it is on the details of the mechanics of synapses etc.

The structure, the organisation, is what distinguishes the brain from insensate matter.

Quantum phenomena may indeed affect the precise behavior of the brain, just like it can affect any other complex process with sensitivity to small differences of energy, but I don't think there is any evidence that QT is a vital part of what makes it 'conscious'.

The main effect of Quantum phenomena is to introduce a degree on essentially random unpredictability into processes. Randomness seems to me to be the opposite of conscious decision-making.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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Is the whole really greater

Is the whole really greater then the sum of it's parts?

 

Physics doesn't think so, particularly in the case of Schroedie's adorable cat. It really is dead and alive, and there really are two of them in the box (or more appropriately, trillions of them), as a result of the nature of each and every one of sad cat's components acting on the quantum scale, you get the large effect of your observation effecting what state the cat is in when you open the box. It's much like quantum tunneling. Sure, two or three electrons disappearing means nothing, but what if quadrillions did at the same time? And is this not extremely probable given the strange attributes of lorentz attractors?

 

does chaos make randomness really "random"? Or does it mean random has an order? If I can tell you when random events are about to occur, doesn't that remove their "randomness"?


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fishpaste. wrote:Is the

fishpaste. wrote:

Is the whole really greater then the sum of it's parts?

 

Physics doesn't think so, particularly in the case of Schroedie's adorable cat. It really is dead and alive, and there really are two of them in the box (or more appropriately, trillions of them), as a result of the nature of each and every one of sad cat's components acting on the quantum scale, you get the large effect of your observation effecting what state the cat is in when you open the box. It's much like quantum tunneling. Sure, two or three electrons disappearing means nothing, but what if quadrillions did at the same time? And is this not extremely probable given the strange attributes of lorentz attractors?

 

does chaos make randomness really "random"? Or does it mean random has an order? If I can tell you when random events are about to occur, doesn't that remove their "randomness"?

Shroedinger's cat says nothing about the whole being more than the sum of its parts.

However the whole structure of science is based on the FACT that a closely connected structure of 'lower level' components almost always displays attributes and behaviours that simply are not even applicable to the components unconnected components.

Atoms have far more complex properties and behaviour that individual neutrons, protons and electrons. 

Water has a whole slew of properties that do not apply to hydrogen or oxygen gas.

You can't store genetic information on a loose collection of nucleic acids.

Try running Windows on a pile of semiconductors and bits of metal and plastic equivalent to what makes up your computer.

To not accept that a structured object has attributes and does things that simply don't apply to the unorganised components would be really stupid.

Randomness has no 'order'. The only 'orderly' thing in quantum randomness is the precisely defined constant probability of some event occurring within a specified period of time, with no way to tell in advance just when it is going to occur. The constant half-life of radioactive decay, ie the time it takes for half the atoms of the particular type in a given collection to decay is what allows radiometric dating to be so useful in determining the age of archeological finds (using carbon decay), or ancient rocks (using potassium-argon decay), and so on. If you can accurately tell when an event is going to occur, it is not random.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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Sapient wrote:Ok let me

Sapient wrote:

Ok let me steer this question a little...

Do any of you believe that if you put positive energy into the world, the world will give you back positive energy? 

I don't believe this, exactly, however I think of it as a, fairly clumsy, approximation to something which I do believe is a phenomenon of our existence.

In reality we make up our own realities, only a fraction of what is seen and experienced in any given instance is "attended" and consequently incorporated into the psyche. In short we pick and choose our world from many possible worlds, {This is a psychological function upon which we base our very identity, this activity is deeply deeply entrenched in modern man. Such a psyche is not equipped to judge whether it's reality is representative of anything but itself, but I digress a bit...} the world we choose [or the pieces of a world, if you prefer] is reflective of the identity doing the selecting, it's the nature of our physical structure to arrange our inner analogue of experience in patterns which direct consequent experience, the inner analogue of collective physical experience is the human identity, and the human identity is what is expressed by the human <-- this basically approximated in other terms says, what you put out you get back.

Sapient wrote:

Do you believe what goes around comes around?

You mean "cosmic scales of justice" ? I think mostly this idea comes down to wishful thinking. This universe has savagery all through it, it doesn't seem to entirely concur with us on the matter of what is just.

Sapient wrote:

Ok... furthermore, do you believe that it can make someone feel good to believe those things? 

I would say that's not the point. These are superstitions, simulacrum, they aren't for making you feel good, their purpose is to feel real.

Sapient wrote:

And if it does make them feel good to believe those things, do you see any harm in believing them?

I think all superstition is ultimately a bridge from one state of the psyche to another, so they're not innately harmful, as long as they don't outlive their use by date, I guess.

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