Pascal's Wager Doesn't Suck (or "What if you're STILL wrong?")

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Pascal's Wager Doesn't Suck (or "What if you're STILL wrong?")

Hello my atheist friends ,

 

First off please don't take any offense to the subject line, I was just trying to use a little bit of humor (since of course, pascal's wager has been called by the laymen "What if you're wrong?", as we all know).

 

I'm posting this new thread only because I really don't feel like responding to a thread 10 pages later..

 

Muslims believe that both Jews and Christians will not be punished by hell:

 

From the Qu'ran

Those who believe in the Qur'an,
and those who follow the Jewish (Scriptures),
and the Christians and tha Sabians, -
any who believe in Allah and the Last Day,
and work righteousness,
shall have their reward with their Lord
on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
-- Sura 2:62

 

Jews don't believe in an afterlife at all, they believe that once you die, that's it..

From the OT:

All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return. Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?"

Ecclesiates 3:21

All eastern religions I know of do not believe in a heaven or hell, they believe in reincarnation.

 

The ancient Greeks and Romans believed in a Hades, but when you die, no matter how you've acted, you go there anyway..

 

So, the Christian religion is the only religion that preaches that we've screwed ourselves up and need to be saved from sin, so I think I'm going to play it safe on this one.

 

Regarding the rest of your bible quotes questioning the morality of God, it seems to me like you're only reading certain portions on the Bible that support your argument (without knowing the full background), which sounds to me to be a bit more of an emotional argument than a rational one (you don't understand why he does certain things, and they paint a bad picture of God, therefore they must not be true).


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which then you get to break

which then you get to break it down to which sect of christanity is the correct one because each one of them believes their teachings, and religion dogma for each sect it right. I mean after all if your celebrate your birthday and the Jehova witnesses are right, your going to hell. If the catholics are right we are all going to purgatory then maybe hell or heaven, etc, etc, etc, etc.


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that's why I go straight off

that's why I go straight off of what's written in the Bible..


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thedjjudah wrote:that's why

thedjjudah wrote:

that's why I go straight off of what's written in the Bible..

Which bible version and which sect really. Mormons have their own bible, Do you take the Thomas Pain version as well?


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latincanuck wrote: I mean

latincanuck wrote:

 I mean after all if your celebrate your birthday and the Jehova witnesses are right, your going to hell.

sorry, just had to jump in and say jw's don't believe in hell.  they just believe you won't be resurrected into paradise.  carry on.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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Your assuming the one who

Your assuming the one who says they have a gun does and you assume the ones that don't say anything don't have guns.  How is that safe?

What about the god who doesn't want you to believe so it didn't make a book and believing will make it angry with you and punish you?

Sounds made up...
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Even if, against all logic

Even if, against all logic and reason, a God of some sort exists, there is no way to know with any confidence what such a being's actual motives would be. The Holy books are just hopeful guesses, or the Books could even be a practical joke played by a Deity who will reward those who have the intelligence to see thru the absurdities...

Any claims to have any real idea as to how a Deity would react to the Pascal's Wager situation are totally without foundation.

 

 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

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Welcome to the

Welcome to the forum.

Pascal's Wager still stucks.

It is an appeal to consequences. Furthermore, it is a false dichotomy, but not just because of other major religions; you still have a infinite number of possible unproposed afterlife scenarios to consider. Not to mention, just like every other theist who uses the argument, you've assumed that the atheist can't get into heaven.

See here.

Pascal's Wager Version 2.0

Don't forget all the non sequiturs either.

How many non sequiturs can you count in Pascal's Wager?

Quote:
Regarding the rest of your bible quotes questioning the morality of God, it seems to me like you're only reading certain portions on the Bible that support your argument
  

If you think a verse was quote mined, you need to show how it was quote mined.

Edit: Oh yeah, don't forget. There are numerous different Christian denominations. No matter what you believe, there will always be a couple of them that think you're going to hell. So, feeling lucky?

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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thedjjudah wrote:Hello my

thedjjudah wrote:

Hello my atheist friends ,

Hello. Welcome to the boards!

thedjjudah wrote:
Regarding the rest of your bible quotes questioning the morality of God, it seems to me like you're only reading certain portions on the Bible that support your argument (without knowing the full background), which sounds to me to be a bit more of an emotional argument than a rational one (you don't understand why he does certain things, and they paint a bad picture of God, therefore they must not be true).

The argument from evil isn't so much a convincing argument against existence as it is a way of showing basic theology as being a little confused.

God doesn't exist in the conventional sense, like we do, or like our desks and chairs do, and if that's how you see existence, then God doesn't exist. It's not as complicated as an argument from morality or Pascal's wager, etc.

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fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence


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Hey.. sorry it took me a

Hey.. sorry it took me a while to respond. I just got out of class.

latincanuck wrote:

Which bible version and which sect really. Mormons have their own bible, Do you take the Thomas Pain version as well?

No, I do not take the Thomas Paine version of the Bible.

The fact is that a few Christian sects (Mormons and Catholics included) DO add something to their Bible, so your point there is valid.

I will admit that this does make trying to find the "right" interpretation of the Bible difficult. That is why I go off of the "Bible".

 (by "Bible", I mean the standard book for Christian living that is not affliated with any particular sect, and what is accepted by the majority as the unedited book, excluding therefore the book of Mormon, the Apocrypha, etc).

While I don't believe that every sect can be right (If we follow the rules of logic, we all know this is impossible) if you stop to examine the different texts, really the core concept is believing that Jesus died for sins and accepting him into your heart. If you do these things, you're safe.

iwbiek wrote:

sorry, just had to jump in and say jw's don't believe in hell.  they just believe you won't be resurrected into paradise.  carry on.

Valid..

Magus wrote:

Your assuming the one who says they have a gun does and you assume the ones that don't say anything don't have guns.  How is that safe?

What about the god who doesn't want you to believe so it didn't make a book and believing will make it angry with you and punish you?

Excellent Point. I will not argue with you that this point is not valid. However, if that is the case then all of us would be screwed by such a God anyway. Therefore it is to no advantage if I even would be able to figure out the existence of that God and believe in it anyway, since obviously we would consider such a being to be malevolent.

BobSpence1 wrote:

Even if, against all logic and reason, a God of some sort exists, there is no way to know with any confidence what such a being's actual motives would be. The Holy books are just hopeful guesses, or the Books could even be a practical joke played by a Deity who will reward those who have the intelligence to see thru the absurdities...

Any claims to have any real idea as to how a Deity would react to the Pascal's Wager situation are totally without foundation.

 

I will not deny that once the evidence that a God does exist is presented, it is a lot more of a challenge to single out the correct God. As Ray Comfort said in the public debate (I really don't like quoting his responses though, they were more appeals to the heart rather than logical, but that doesn't necessarily mean this point is moot), there have been things stated in the Bible that could not have possibly been known at that time by any other means other than divine inspiration (the fact that our planet,is in fact round, when scientists did not figure it out until Magellan sailed around the Earth in 1547).

 

Here are some Bible verses (yeah, I know, sorry..) that state things that hadn't been revealed by science until (most of the time) at least a millenium later.

Isaiah 40:22 - The earth is round.

Job 26:7  - The earth sits in space

Ecclesiates 1:6 - Describes how wind currents and the atmosphere works.

Romans 1:27 - Who are the people at highest risk for HIV/AIDS ? "Men who have sex with men" (BTW, I am NOT a bigot, I don't judge or hate anyone who is gay, I'm just saying that the bible already stated this 2 1/2 millenia before we as a scientific community realized it).

Just a few of those help me to believe that the God that I am choosing to believe in, is in fact the real God.

 

butterbattle wrote:

Welcome to the forum.

Pascal's Wager still stucks.

It is an appeal to consequences. Furthermore, it is a false dichotomy, but not just because of other major religions; you still have a infinite number of possible unproposed afterlife scenarios to consider. Not to mention, just like every other theist who uses the argument, you've assumed that the atheist can't get into heaven.

See here.

Pascal's Wager Version 2.0

 

I can see, as a logical individual, how you can come to that conclusion. Unfortunately, we also have an infinite number of proposed scenarios for THIS life (called choices, and their respective consequences), and we obviously exist. So that point is null.

butterbattle wrote:

 

Don't forget all the non sequiturs either.

How many non sequiturs can you count in Pascal's Wager?

Fair enough. But the points I've mentioned earlier still stand and, I feel, are major holes in your worldview that must be addressed.

butterbattle wrote:

Edit: Oh yeah, don't forget. There are numerous different Christian denominations. No matter what you believe, there will always be a couple of them that think you're going to hell. So, feeling lucky?

Wrong. See above. Whether I am a Orthodox Christian, Anglican, Catholic or Presbyterian the main belief is that I need to have Christ cover my sins. The differences are in the rituals, or their idea of the afterlife. ( See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_denomination&nbspEye-wink.

On top of all that, we will never know apart from God how the matter that started the Big Bang got there in the first place. You cannot believe that time infinitely runs in both directions, because we cannot possibly exist if that is the case (the point in time that we are in is in existence only relative to the points around it). And it is against science to believe that something came from nothing (see Louis Pasteur). If spontaneous generation is impossible for biological systems, then why would it be true for celestial systems?

 

 

 


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thedjjudah wrote:Magus

thedjjudah wrote:

Magus wrote:

Your assuming the one who says they have a gun does and you assume the ones that don't say anything don't have guns.  How is that safe?

What about the god who doesn't want you to believe so it didn't make a book and believing will make it angry with you and punish you?

Excellent Point. I will not argue with you that this point is not valid. However, if that is the case then all of us would be screwed by such a God anyway. Therefore it is to no advantage if I even would be able to figure out the existence of that God and believe in it anyway, since obviously we would consider such a being to be malevolent.


 

No, I wouldn't be punished because I don't believe in said god.   Why do you consider this being malevolent?

Sounds made up...
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Isaiah 40:22 refers to the

Isaiah 40:22 refers to the circle of the Earth, which does not describe a sphere, rather a flat, circular disk.

The Greeks believed the Earth was spherical 100's of years BC.

Eratosthenes in 250 BC made a surprisingly good estimate of the diameter of a spherical earth.

So that argument doesn't work.

Job 26:7 wrote:

He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.

The first part of that quote is not in any way accurate, the second part is more consistent with a flat earth with a sky above and emptiness below, rather than a spherical Earth with emptiness all around it, not just 'below' it.

Ecclesiates 1:6 wrote:

The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits.

More proof that they believed in a flat earth, since that would mean that the wind could not keep blowing in one direction, since it would just all blow off the edge. Whereas on a spherical Earth, the wind can keep blowing in one direction indefinitely around a sphere.

You should have provided the actual passages, not just your inaccurate interpretation of them.

EDIT: Genesis alone is proof that the writers of the Bible had no idea about the nature and origins of 'Life, the Universe, and Everything'.

 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

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thedjjudah wrote: Isaiah

thedjjudah wrote:

Isaiah 40:22 - The earth is round.

You really have to try hard to make it seem as though this:

       He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth,
       and its people are like grasshoppers.
       He stretches out the heavens like a canopy,
       and spreads them out like a tent to live in.

mean the Earth is round as in spherical.  The Earth is, in fact, an oblate spheroid.  It is certainly not a circle, to say nothing about any 'He's' being enthroned above it.

Quote:
Job 26:7  - The earth sits in space
The passage goes, 'He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.'  So, you're doing some fine interpreting of your own now to extrapolate that the passage describes the Earth sitting in orbit of the Sun in space.

Quote:
Ecclesiates 1:6 - Describes how wind currents and the atmosphere works.
Umm ...'The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits.' it isn't exactly something surprising.  Civilization had been around for some, oh, five thousand years prior to the writing of the bible.  Is it difficult to believe that people knew that wind followed a particular pattern with the seasons?  I mean, this is something that humans would have noticed.  Kind of like the day/night cycle or the tides or the cycle of the moon and ...need I go on?  It's merely describing a pattern.  It is not describing how wind currents and the atmosphere work (and it's probably not an accurate representation of the wind patterns of that region, either).  That is an incredibly dishonest interpretation to take and it is extremely laking for a book either inspired or written by god. 

We don't even fully understand the complexities of wind currents or the atmosphere and there is an entire science built up around it that would take a great deal of time to learn.  Entire university studies are devoted to atmospheric science.  A single sentence in the bible does not describe the workings of wind currents or the atmosphere.

Quote:
Romans 1:27 - Who are the people at highest risk for HIV/AIDS ? "Men who have sex with men" (BTW, I am NOT a bigot, I don't judge or hate anyone who is gay, I'm just saying that the bible already stated this 2 1/2 millenia before we as a scientific community realized it).
You're a bigot.  That's a ridiculous interpretation to take.  The people at the highest risk for HIV are Africans in areas where the disease is most prevalent.  Gay men are at an increased risk for infection due to a number of factors, the least of which is that they have sex with each other.  Further, the human variant of HIV didn't even exist until the 20th century.

Let's look at the passage, however, to find out what the bible does say about HIV.

'In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.'

Hmm ...nothing.  It doesn't mention HIV.  In fact, you must be interpreting 'and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.' as meaning that HIV is a penalty for being a gay man.

It's interesting that women and heterosexual people are infected to, isn't it?  It's also interesting that the HIV didn't exist in humans prior to the 20th century, right?

On what do you base your interpretations?  What would people have made about even the above passage before HIV?  What would that due penalty have been interpreted as and what makes you think that your interpretation of the passage as referring to HIV is correct?

Quote:
Just a few of those help me to believe that the God that I am choosing to believe in, is in fact the real God.
That's some lousy reasoning.

And pascal's wager is clearly bad logic and it's entirely a dead horse.  It's unfortunate that, again, we're beating it.  Further, even if it were good logic, it's entirely unconvincing as an argument.  What would ever possess me to believe in something only out of the fear of damnation, especially given the fact that I can't verify in this most certain existence that the possibility is true and especially when it would require me to relinquish my good conscience, intelligence and integrity.  What sort of evil being would want immoral, stupid and dishonest believers?  Frankly, I would take my chance and rather stand by my virtue.  It would be insulting, were the wager valid, to have someone impose it upon me as an argument to believe their story.  As it is, it's only annoying and I don't believe their story.

BigUniverse wrote,

"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."


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latincanuck wrote:thedjjudah

latincanuck wrote:

thedjjudah wrote:

that's why I go straight off of what's written in the Bible..

Which bible version and which sect really. Mormons have their own bible, Do you take the Thomas Pain version as well?

You meant to say Thomas Jefferson. The Jefferson Bible is the New Testament with all of the references to divinity and miracles removed. Thomas Paine was a founding father who was a deist (as perhaps was Jefferson) who claimed that the Bible was a book of lies. Thomas Paine wrote "The Age of Reason" and Thomas Jefferson removed all the miracles and divinity from the New Testament.

"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."
British General Charles Napier while in India


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thedjjudah wrote:I will not

thedjjudah wrote:
I will not deny that once the evidence that a God does exist is presented, it is a lot more of a challenge to single out the correct God. As Ray Comfort said in the public debate (I really don't like quoting his responses though, they were more appeals to the heart rather than logical, but that doesn't necessarily mean this point is moot), there have been things stated in the Bible that could not have possibly been known at that time by any other means other than divine inspiration (the fact that our planet,is in fact round, when scientists did not figure it out until Magellan sailed around the Earth in 1547).

The Greeks had figured out that the Earth was a sphere and they had a pretty good estimate of the radius (Eratosthenes ~240 BCE). I guess that means Zeus is the god who provides divine inspiration.

thedjjudah wrote:
Here are some Bible verses (yeah, I know, sorry..) that state things that hadn't been revealed by science until (most of the time) at least a millenium later.

Isaiah 40:22 - The earth is round.

This verse says the earth is a circle, and that heaven is like a tent above it. Flat-earthers couldn't have said it better. No hint of knowledge that the Earth is a sphere in this one. No, circles are not spheres.

thedjjudah wrote:
Job 26:7  - The earth sits in space

Who ever wrote Job must be confused, since Job 9:6 says (NASB):

Who shakes the earth out of its place,
And its pillars tremble

Which is it? Or is the earth suspended upon pillars of nothing?

thedjjudah wrote:
Ecclesiates 1:6 - Describes how wind currents and the atmosphere works.

If this is divinely inspired knowledge, all gods must exist. Especially weather gods. It doesn't take that much to notice how winds change over a year. Furthermore, it says absolutely nothing about how the atmosphere works.

thedjjudah wrote:
Romans 1:27 - Who are the people at highest risk for HIV/AIDS ? "Men who have sex with men" (BTW, I am NOT a bigot, I don't judge or hate anyone who is gay, I'm just saying that the bible already stated this 2 1/2 millenia before we as a scientific community realized it).

You win some sort of prize here for reading into a verse. It doesn't say anything about HIV/AIDS or any other decease for that matter.

 

In conclusion: epic fail. Please try again.


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Jormungander

Jormungander wrote:

latincanuck wrote:

thedjjudah wrote:

that's why I go straight off of what's written in the Bible..

Which bible version and which sect really. Mormons have their own bible, Do you take the Thomas Pain version as well?

You meant to say Thomas Jefferson. The Jefferson Bible is the New Testament with all of the references to divinity and miracles removed. Thomas Paine was a founding father who was a deist (as perhaps was Jefferson) who claimed that the Bible was a book of lies. Thomas Paine wrote "The Age of Reason" and Thomas Jefferson removed all the miracles and divinity from the New Testament.

My mistake your right, damn it working to hard and nothing thinking to much at that moment.


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When I mean which version I

When I mean which version I mean which out of the 100 or so English versions of the bible do you follow? I mean to say the bible does not tell me which version it is that you follow, is it the King James Version, the American translations 1931 version, The Aramaic bible version?  Common English New testament? Cotton Patch Version (CPV)? Dead Sea Scrolls bible (1997)? Dartmouth Bible? Geneva Bible? Holy Bible revised version? Inclusive version? Jerusalem bible? Lamsa Bible? New Evangelical Translation? New Life version? Original New Testament? Noli New Testament? Scholars version? Scriptures SISR version? Wiclif Translation? The William Tyndale translation? Young's Literal translation revised version? Or one of the other 80 or so one's I didn't include.


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thedjjudah wrote:I can see,

thedjjudah wrote:

I can see, as a logical individual, how you can come to that conclusion. Unfortunately, we also have an infinite number of proposed scenarios for THIS life (called choices, and their respective consequences), and we obviously exist. So that point is null.

The point is that if you are making a wager, you must entertain every possibility without consideration for their validity. It is a mere assumption that we only have to give credit to established belief systems. In other words, I could propose any hypothetical situation, and it would have to be included in the wager. For example, I could say that religion was actually a test from God to evaluate the rationality of his Creation and that only people who weren't religious would go to heaven. Obviously, this is not what I believe, but this vividly portrays the main flaw of Pascal's Wager: it's assumptions.

I don't even understand what you're trying to say with this response, seems like a complete non sequitur to me. Yes, we obviously exist in this life. So what? 

Edit: You haven't addressed my criticism that it's an appeal to consequences either.

thedjjudah wrote:
Wrong. See above. Whether I am a Orthodox Christian, Anglican, Catholic or Presbyterian the main belief is that I need to have Christ cover my sins.

It doesn't matter. No matter what you believe, somebody, somewhere, believes that after you die, you're going to be screwed, and that immediately makes the wager almost worthless.

Quote:
On top of all that, we will never know apart from God how the matter that started the Big Bang got there in the first place.

I don't currently know what caused the Big Bang. You can't say that we will never know.

We don't know that God caused the Big Bang. He is merely one explanation, not supported by any evidence. 

Quote:
You cannot believe that time infinitely runs in both directions, because we cannot possibly exist if that is the case (the point in time that we are in is in existence only relative to the points around it).

I don't know if it does.

Quote:
And it is against science to believe that something came from nothing (see Louis Pasteur).

I don't believe that either.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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thedjjudah wrote: (the fact

thedjjudah wrote:
 (the fact that our planet,is in fact round, when scientists did not figure it out until Magellan sailed around the Earth in 1547).

There are scientists who reached that conclusion more than a thousands years prior using astronomy and mathematics. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_Earth

thedjjudah wrote:

Isaiah 40:22 - The earth is round.

"It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:"

Vague metaphors, how nice.

It says the Earth is a circle, not "round." The Earth is not a circle.

The sky is not a like a tent or curtain because it's open space. It's not like a ceiling. If the verse was merely stating that it "covers" the Earth, that would be correct, but anybody can figure that out just by looking up.

Quote:
Job 26:7  - The earth sits in space

"He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing." 

This is hardly advanced scientific knowledge.  

The Bible also says that the Earth sits on pillars.

Quote:
Ecclesiates 1:6 - Describes how wind currents and the atmosphere works.

"The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits."

This is too vague to mean anything.

Quote:
Romans 1:27 - Who are the people at highest risk for HIV/AIDS ? "Men who have sex with men"

"And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet."

It doesn't say anything about HIV/AIDS. 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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butterbattle wrote:There are

butterbattle wrote:

There are scientists who reached that conclusion more than a thousands years prior using astronomy and mathematics.

Just to remind you, in case you forgot from school, the general consensus was until 1547 that the earth was flat..

And even if both the scientists and the writer of Job both reached that conclusion, your scientists had ,as you say, astronomy and mathematics. I sincerely doubt the writer of Job was as educated as that, so where did the infomation come from?

 

By the way, it is interesting to note that the Hebrews had NO word for sphere.. they would have said "circle". So my point is not disproven. Although I do admit that it is not proven, either. Just understand that that statement is invalid.

In regards to the other statements, they appear as though they could be logical, but they in reality are false premises.

 

In regard to Thomathy - thanks so much for assuming that I hate several of my friends and a 2 of my roommates. Just because I believe in the bible does not mean I hate anyone. In fact you seem to me to be much more of a judgemental *whatever word you feel like calling me* than me, because I was simply having an intellectual conversation, sure I may be accused of taking some things out of context, but it was not my intention, and furthermore atheists do it just all the time.

I never said that because the Bible says homosexuality is wrong that I judge others. Bet you didn't know that I supported Prop 8 , did you, because even though it's wrong I can't force you (or shouldn', regarding your own body) to follow my code of morality.

Thomathy wrote:

You really have to try hard to make it seem as though this:

       He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth,
       and its people are like grasshoppers.
       He stretches out the heavens like a canopy,
       and spreads them out like a tent to live in.

 

mean the Earth is round as in spherical.  

 

Almost as hard as for people to believe in science, ask a believer "what caused God", but not be able to see the absurd amount of faith it takes to believe that the components of the big bang magically appeared,  and furthermore, being willing to accept that they have no evidence, it's illogical, and then prance around as lovers of logic. Whereas Christians already at least believe that something can come from nothing by God, we at least admit we have faith. You do too, you just call it a different name..

 

Let me start over (you got me really pissed with the bigot comment)

 

The bible sometimes uses the word "heavens" as a term to describe the sky as well, as could be what this means.

 

BobSpence1 wrote:

More proof that they believed in a flat earth, since that would mean that the wind could not keep blowing in one direction, since it would just all blow off the edge. Whereas on a spherical Earth, the wind can keep blowing in one direction indefinitely around a sphere.

 

Can, theoretically, but doesn't, in reality, the winds literally are constantly changing direction.

 

BobSpence1 wrote:

You should have provided the actual passages, not just your inaccurate interpretation of them.

Yes, I should have, and next time I will, I apologize. I didn't feel like typing a whole lot or even copying and pasting.

 

[quote =Thomathy]

Civilization had been around for some, oh, five thousand years prior to the writing of the bible.  Is it difficult to believe that people knew that wind followed a particular pattern with the seasons?  I mean, this is something that humans would have noticed.  Kind of like the day/night cycle or the tides or the cycle of the moon and ...need I go on?  It's merely describing a pattern.  It is not describing how wind currents and the atmosphere work (and it's probably not an accurate representation of the wind patterns of that region, either).  That is an incredibly dishonest interpretation to take and it is extremely laking for a book either inspired or written by god. 

That to me, seems like an entirely speculative response, based on trying to find an explanation that contradicts mine, since we now know that that is how wind DOES move

butterbattle wrote:

 

And it is against science to believe that something came from nothing (see Louis Pasteur).

I don't believe that either.

Wait, so you guys can ask me "What caused God?" and at the same time are willing to admit that somethings have no cause? Please enlighten me.


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thedjjudah

thedjjudah wrote:

butterbattle wrote:

There are scientists who reached that conclusion more than a thousands years prior using astronomy and mathematics.

Just to remind you, in case you forgot from school, the general consensus was until 1547 that the earth was flat.

Bob just pointed out that the Ancient Greeks knew the earth was roughly spherical, and made calculations of its circumference. Anyone who could read Greek before 1547 knew the earth was round. (Where did 1547 come from? Usually people cite Columbus as knowing before that.)

thedjjudah wrote:
And even if both the scientists and the writer of Job both reached that conclusion, your scientists had ,as you say, astronomy and mathematics. I sincerely doubt the writer of Job was as educated as that, so where did the infomation come from?

The Egyptians (you'll find them mentioned in the bible) had astronomy and mathematics.

thedjjudah wrote:
Almost as hard as for people to believe in science, ask a believer "what caused God", but not be able to see the absurd amount of faith it takes to believe that the components of the big bang magically appeared,  and furthermore, being willing to accept that they have no evidence, it's illogical, and then prance around as lovers of logic.

Oh dear. The math involved in modeling the beginnings of the universe is a little mind-blowing. I don't suggest arguing about it until you've seen it. It's a model. It's not "something from nothing", it's a little more involved than that.

thedjjudah wrote:
Whereas Christians already at least believe that something can come from nothing by God, we at least admit we have faith. You do too, you just call it a different name.

That's not true. There's a difference between a mathematical model and "God goes poof".

thedjjudah wrote:
Wait, so you guys can ask me "What caused God?" and at the same time are willing to admit that somethings have no cause? Please enlighten me.

Two arguments there. Either you want to say that everything has a cause, and therefore, so does God (although, I personally would avoid this line of reasoning, as it implied exhaustive knowledge of "all things" ), or you can say that not everything has a cause, in which case, we're stuck with figuring out which things do and do not.

In the case of the universe, since time collapses with space during the beginning, "cause" gets a little fuzzy, since "before" and "after" are time dependent concepts.

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thedjjudah

thedjjudah wrote:

butterbattle wrote:

There are scientists who reached that conclusion more than a thousands years prior using astronomy and mathematics.

Just to remind you, in case you forgot from school, the general consensus was until 1547 that the earth was flat..

And even if both the scientists and the writer of Job both reached that conclusion, your scientists had ,as you say, astronomy and mathematics. I sincerely doubt the writer of Job was as educated as that, so where did the infomation come from?

And in case you forgot, the consensus was controlled by the religionists.

 

Quote:

By the way, it is interesting to note that the Hebrews had NO word for sphere.. they would have said "circle". So my point is not disproven. Although I do admit that it is not proven, either. Just understand that that statement is invalid.

In regards to the other statements, they appear as though they could be logical, but they in reality are false premises.

 So the omnipotent, omniscient being who inspired the book couldn't have added the word to the language of his chosen people?

Quote:

In regard to Thomathy - thanks so much for assuming that I hate several of my friends and a 2 of my roommates. Just because I believe in the bible does not mean I hate anyone. In fact you seem to me to be much more of a judgemental *whatever word you feel like calling me* than me, because I was simply having an intellectual conversation, sure I may be accused of taking some things out of context, but it was not my intention, and furthermore atheists do it just all the time.

I never said that because the Bible says homosexuality is wrong that I judge others. Bet you didn't know that I supported Prop 8 , did you, because even though it's wrong I can't force you (or shouldn', regarding your own body) to follow my code of morality.

So you believe in the Bible but don't follow Luke 14:26? I'm not even going to mess with the "Some of my best friends are..." stuff

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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thedjjudah wrote:Just to

thedjjudah wrote:

Just to remind you, in case you forgot from school, the general consensus was until 1547 that the earth was flat..

And even if both the scientists and the writer of Job both reached that conclusion, your scientists had ,as you say, astronomy and mathematics. I sincerely doubt the writer of Job was as educated as that, so where did the infomation come from?

 

By the way, it is interesting to note that the Hebrews had NO word for sphere.. they would have said "circle". So my point is not disproven. Although I do admit that it is not proven, either. Just understand that that statement is invalid.

In regards to the other statements, they appear as though they could be logical, but they in reality are false premises.

What school did you go to that taught you that crap that the world believed up until 1547 the earth was flat? The catholic church might have up until then but not the rest of the world

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_Earth

The concept of a spherical earth goes back as far as the 6th century BCE. However with the fall of Rome and the rise of christianity the flat earth concept comes back into power based on biblical teachings.

As well the concept of the earth in the Hebrew bible (Torah from which the Christian bible is based on) is more or less taken from early Egyptian and Mesopotamian thoughts about how the earth is a flat disk floating in the ocean, as per the Torah that the earth is surrounded by water above and below Genesis 1:6-8.

Quote:

Wait, so you guys can ask me "What caused God?" and at the same time are willing to admit that somethings have no cause? Please enlighten me.

We ask because in the end you attribute creation to god, a being of complexity while we go for the most natural and simplest route. You invoke a being, intelligent, complex etc, yet it does not need creation, but the simple things, energy for example (again using other creationists arguments as yours seems to be going that way) requires a creator. Why doesn't god need a creator but everything else does?


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 The Hebrew word Chuwg

 The Hebrew word Chuwg means a flat-circle like a coin. The Hebrew word for a sphere like a ball is Duwr. So the distinction could be made.

What word did they use in the passages in question? I haven't found out yet.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

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In Isaiah 40:22 it uses the

In Isaiah 40:22 it uses the word Chuwg (as per my jewish contact)


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thedjjudah wrote:Hello my

thedjjudah wrote:

Hello my atheist friends ,

 

First off please don't take any offense to the subject line, I was just trying to use a little bit of humor (since of course, pascal's wager has been called by the laymen "What if you're wrong?", as we all know).

 

I'm posting this new thread only because I really don't feel like responding to a thread 10 pages later..

 

Muslims believe that both Jews and Christians will not be punished by hell:

 

From the Qu'ran

Those who believe in the Qur'an,
and those who follow the Jewish (Scriptures),
and the Christians and tha Sabians, -
any who believe in Allah and the Last Day,
and work righteousness,
shall have their reward with their Lord
on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
-- Sura 2:62

 

Jews don't believe in an afterlife at all, they believe that once you die, that's it..

From the OT:

All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return. Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?"

Ecclesiates 3:21

All eastern religions I know of do not believe in a heaven or hell, they believe in reincarnation.

 

The ancient Greeks and Romans believed in a Hades, but when you die, no matter how you've acted, you go there anyway..

 

So, the Christian religion is the only religion that preaches that we've screwed ourselves up and need to be saved from sin, so I think I'm going to play it safe on this one.

 

Regarding the rest of your bible quotes questioning the morality of God, it seems to me like you're only reading certain portions on the Bible that support your argument (without knowing the full background), which sounds to me to be a bit more of an emotional argument than a rational one (you don't understand why he does certain things, and they paint a bad picture of God, therefore they must not be true).

How can you be sure that the real God (if such a god exists) is a god which has been mentioned by the peoples of the Earth? Afterall, the universe is a huge place. How do you know that the "real" god's name isn't "zzzywat" and has chosen a race of reptiles on the planet "zort" to be his chosen people that he sends into heaven? How can you be so sure that the "real" god really didn't invent Christianity to punish christians, while sending everyone else to heaven?

The problem is, if you are using Pascal's wager, you are conceding that there is no better reason to believe in a particular god other than statistics -- and since there are an infinite number of possible gods, many of which would punish you for not believing in them,  the statistics are not really in your favor.


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thedjjudah wrote:In regard

thedjjudah wrote:
In regard to Thomathy - thanks so much for assuming that I hate several of my friends and a 2 of my roommates.
I didn't assume you hate them.  I called you a bigot.  That's what your line of reasoning leads to; you being a bigot.  Do you need to read what you wrote again?

thedjjudah wrote:
Romans 1:27 - Who are the people at highest risk for HIV/AIDS ? "Men who have sex with men" (BTW, I am NOT a bigot, I don't judge or hate anyone who is gay, I'm just saying that the bible already stated this 2 1/2 millenia before we as a scientific community realized it).
It sure seems like you're a bigot and a liar for immediately claiming not to be.  If you weren't a bigot and if what you wrote couldn't be judged as being bigoted, why would you even throw up that denial?  I happen to be gay (just look at my picture) and you are a bigot by way of your belief.  Oh, I've no doubt that you struggle with the cognitive dissonance of having gay friends, whom I'm sure you love. but rather believe that they're damned by the bible.  If you don't believe that, how could you possibly arrive at the interpretation, which you claim is your own (since you claim to follow the bible, whatever that means), that the bible states that gay people are at a higher risk for contracting HIV?  You have some problems.

Quote:
Just because I believe in the bible does not mean I hate anyone.
I have not said that it does.

Quote:
In fact you seem to me to be much more of a judgemental *whatever word you feel like calling me* than me, because I was simply having an intellectual conversation, sure I may be accused of taking some things out of context, but it was not my intention, and furthermore atheists do it just all the time.
I rightfully called you a bigot.  You're going to have to present a counter-argument if you're going to continue with this 'intellectual conversation'.  Also, do not engage in sophistry, I will not participate in 'intellectual discussions' with you if you continue to employ logical fallacies such as tu quo que.  It makes it your argument no better and is no good reason upon which to base an argument to accuse your opponent of performing the same action you have (especially when they have, in fact, not).

Quote:
I never said that because the Bible says homosexuality is wrong that I judge others.
So you both believe that the bible says homosexuality is wrong and that your gay friends, whom I assume you love, are free of judgement by you?  You who has interpreted the bible yourself through your own reading of it?  you believe in a contradiction.  Again, cognitive dissonance.  You have some problems.

Quote:
Bet you didn't know that I supported Prop 8 , did you, because even though it's wrong I can't force you (or shouldn', regarding your own body) to follow my code of morality.
You supported Prop 8?  As in you supported a measure through which the state of California has amended their constitution to include a passage specifically stating that, 'Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California.'?  You're an asshole and that's entirely subjective.

thedjjudah wrote:
Thomathy wrote:

You really have to try hard to make it seem as though this:

       He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth,
       and its people are like grasshoppers.
       He stretches out the heavens like a canopy,
       and spreads them out like a tent to live in.

 

mean the Earth is round as in spherical.  

 

Almost as hard as for people to believe in science, ask a believer "what caused God", but not be able to see the absurd amount of faith it takes to believe that the components of the big bang magically appeared,

It did not magically appear.  You seem to be mistaken about the Big Bang.

thedjjudah wrote:
and furthermore, being willing to accept that they have no evidence, it's illogical, and then prance around as lovers of logic.
There is vat evidence for the Big Bang.  You really are very mistaken about the Big Bang.

thedjjudah wrote:
Whereas Christians already at least believe that something can come from nothing by God, we at least admit we have faith. You do too, you just call it a different name..
In fact, I have no faith of the sort you speak.  I don't believe that something can come from nothing.  It is true, you admit that you have faith.  This is good.  It means that you can stop trying to make the bible fit with reality.  You're faith should be enough.  Faith, after all, is belief despite (and perhaps in spite of) evidence.

thedjjudah wrote:
Let me start over (you got me really pissed with the bigot comment)
You're pissed?  Stop believing that your bible condemns homosexuality, then, you bigot.  Plenty of Christians have interpreted the bible as not condemning homosexuality.  And don't say you haven't said that.  I'll quote you, again, for posterity.

[thedjjudah]I never said that because the Bible says homosexuality is wrong that I judge others.

Yeah, in unequivocal terms the bible says that homosexuality is wrong.  Bigot.

thedjjudah wrote:
The bible sometimes uses the word "heavens" as a term to describe the sky as well, as could be what this means.
I very much doubt you know the language in which the bible is written.  Rather, perhaps you mean that the translation which you read sometimes uses the word heavens to describe the sky.  That could be.  Big deal.

 

thedjjudah wrote:
Thomathy wrote:
Civilization had been around for some, oh, five thousand years prior to the writing of the bible.  Is it difficult to believe that people knew that wind followed a particular pattern with the seasons?  I mean, this is something that humans would have noticed.  Kind of like the day/night cycle or the tides or the cycle of the moon and ...need I go on?  It's merely describing a pattern.  It is not describing how wind currents and the atmosphere work (and it's probably not an accurate representation of the wind patterns of that region, either).  That is an incredibly dishonest interpretation to take and it is extremely laking for a book either inspired or written by god.
That to me, seems like an entirely speculative response, based on trying to find an explanation that contradicts mine, since we now know that that is how wind DOES move
Well, no.  It's actually a pretty educated deduction and my reasoning is even well explained in the above quote.

Now, you're being dishonest.  See, I can quote what you wrote.

thedjjudah wrote:
Ecclesiates 1:6 - Describes how wind currents and the atmosphere works.
That passage does not describe how wind currents or the atmosphere works.  It describes a pattern.  How wind currents and the atmosphere work are far more complicated than a single sentence in the bible which describes the direction in which a wind blows.  Not incidentally either, is the fact that the major wind currents, the jet streams, circle the Earth East to West, which is exactly contrary to the passage even if it could be construed as describing the prevalent, global wind currents.

So, bigot (and I'll stop calling you a bigot when you learn to disavow yourself of you petty interpretation of the bible and free yourself of the indignant cognitive dissonance from which you suffer), how is it that you were going defend your interpretations (never mind the thoroughly dessicated corpse of that wager)?

BigUniverse wrote,

"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."


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If a supernatural force was

If a supernatural force was going to enlighten future generations with scientific knowledge hidden in its holy book, it did a very poor job of it.  Vague prophecy and allegorical poetry is all we get.

 

The great thing about Biblical belief though is that you give yourself the ability to pick and choose what is literal and what is poetic...then you can change the meaning of things to fit with whatever your belief of the day is.  If you tried to tell push your interpretation of the Bible around in Europe a few hundred years ago, they would have killed you, and if you tried to tell Jesus what your interpretation is, he probably would have kicked your ass and knocked you down some stairs.

It always struck me as amusing that the further away we get from the actual writing of the Bible, the better we learn to interpret it.  I always suspected it would be the other way around.  Unfortunately, that would put theists in conflict with modern morality, logic, reason and science, and so you get this never ending series of back peddles and reinterpretations.

 

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


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"So, the Christian religion

"So, the Christian religion is the only religion that preaches that we've screwed ourselves up and need to be saved from sin, so I think I'm going to play it safe on this one."

So only christians are so evil as to charge, convict, and sentence people upon birth. Good to know, I suppose.

"Regarding the rest of your bible quotes questioning the morality of God, it seems to me like you're only reading certain portions on the Bible that support your argument (without knowing the full background),"

Isn't it interesting how different people can interpret the same passage differently? If god existed, and commissioned the bible, you'd think maybe he'd have made it clear. That he'd give evidence and direction instead of poor writing, and no clarity.

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Owee. That's one harsh

Owee. That's one harsh ass-whuppin' y'all have given this nice young lad.

I'd like to add it's not just Christianity that has a "consequence from sin" clause. There are some sects of Buddhism (and other reincarnation beliefs) that hold the quality of your next life is dependent upon your actions in this life. It's not just your actions, of course, but your intent. That is, if you are good to brown-nose your way into heaven, your actions aren't as important as those who do good just because it's the right thing to do.

The claim that Christianity is the only gamble is a bit off here. And personally, I'd go with the reincarnationist Buddhists, as their philosophy makes far more sense than Christianity (with all its unsupportable rules, and internal contradictions).

I just wanted to make sure the OP wasn't proceeding from some false sense of specialness. (Also, there are other gods that required actions to enter heaven. The Norse gods were not kind. Christianity is not special in that regard. Or in any, near as I can tell. Except that it's a poly-theism disguised as a mono-theism. That appears to be unique.)

"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers


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thedjjudah wrote:And even if

 

thedjjudah wrote:
And even if both the scientists and the writer of Job both reached that conclusion, your scientists had ,as you say, astronomy and mathematics. I sincerely doubt the writer of Job was as educated as that, so where did the infomation come from?

What information?

We've already debunked every verse you've posted. 

 

thedjjudah wrote:

By the way, it is interesting to note that the Hebrews had NO word for sphere.. they would have said "circle". So my point is not disproven. Although I do admit that it is not proven, either. Just understand that that statement is invalid.

Then why couldn't the Bible describe it more clearly? Why didn't it say the Earth is like a ball or something?

Honestly, this is supposed to be the most perfect book in the universe. Is it seriously too much to ask for God to provide even one piece of convincing evidence? Instead, it has talking snakes and donkeys, people living inside of whales, the sun stopping in the sky, virgin births, stoning witches, etc. etc. etc. It never ends. I can show you five verses that are inaccurate for every one ambiguous verse that might hold some meaning if you twist logic into a pretzel.

thedjjudah wrote:
In regards to the other statements, they appear as though they could be logical, but they in reality are false premises.

Naked assertions aren't good enough.

How is Pascal's Wager not an appeal to consequences? How is not based on flawed assumptions?

 

thedjjudah wrote:
That to me, seems like an entirely speculative response, based on trying to find an explanation that contradicts mine, since we now know that that is how wind DOES move

Well, if God wanted us to know that the Bible was his word, why didn't he just describe how the wind moves? Instead, he wrote:

"The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits."

Yeah, that's sooooo scientific.

Also, FYI, the Bible should be more specific about what "wind" it's talking about, because the largest jet streams flow west-east, not north-south. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_stream

Oops.

thedjjudah wrote:
Wait, so you guys can ask me "What caused God?" and at the same time are willing to admit that somethings have no cause? Please enlighten me.

I don't believe that something can come from nothing.

I don't think the universe came from nothing. I don't know how the universe came to be.  

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare