Could faith save us in an emergency?

Rising Sun
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Could faith save us in an emergency?

Just wondering what all of you think about this scenario.  In a life or death situation, do you believe it is it possible that having faith in something beyond our puny ideas could save us if we were put into a situation that demanded trust in something behond ourselves?  Could this belief have anything to do with the end result which is survival? 


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Rising Sun wrote:Just

Rising Sun wrote:

Just wondering what all of you think about this scenario.  In a life or death situation, do you believe it is it possible that having faith in something beyond our puny ideas could save us if we were put into a situation that demanded trust in something behond ourselves?  Could this belief have anything to do with the end result which is survival? 

I'm not sure what you mean.  Are you intentionally equivocating between different uses of the word faith?  In one instance you seem to be using it mean belief without evidence and at the next moment you are using it to mean trust (albeit in a vague thing).

Judging from what I think you do mean, you're talking about if having belief without evidence (faith) in an ambiguous something beyond our 'puny ideas' and ourselves could potentially save us in an undescribed life or death scenario.  I can't answer that question.  You haven't described any scenario in which anyone can judge whether having faith in something could possibly aid in survival.  Care to be a bit more specific and also to decide in which sense you mean to use faith?

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Faith in what exactly?

Faith in what exactly?

 

Seriously, if you mean the faith that living for another day is worthwhile then I suppose so. However, if you had something more specific in mind, then you need to consider what that is. Just for shits and giggles, let's say that there is an after life and you spent all of your spiritual bucks on meeting saint peter at the gates of heaven.

 

Now you actually get there and it turns out that it was Mumbo Jumbo, god of the Congo that was the guy you should have been dealing with all of your life. Depending on how things work up there, that could potentially be a big oopsie.

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 I can't think of any such

 I can't think of any such situation.  Suppose there is no "something beyond ourselves" in a life or death situation.  If we trust in it, it will fail us by virtue of not existing.  If blind luck saves us, it would have saved us anyway, so the trust was irrelevant.

Suppose there is something that saves us in a life or death situation, be it a sudden rush of adrenaline that gives us a second wind, or the sheer determination to see our loved ones again, or the random intervention of a stranger we've never met.  None of these situations are "beyond our puny ideas."  Well, maybe some people can't imagine them, but I've got a pretty good imagination, and all the tests say I'm very smart.  I have no problem conceiving of lots of ways people could be saved in life or death situations.

Perhaps you're getting at something like a placebo effect.  Maybe faith in "something beyond our puny ideas" gives someone a "false hope" that motivates them to rise up on their own and overcome a situation they might otherwise have succumbed to without their false belief.  I'm sure that happens, but it's certainly not restricted to religion or "something beyond ourselves."  People have done great acts because of communism, utopianism, futurism, new-age-ism, and dozens of other beliefs that are all wrong, but still motivated an individual to something he might not otherwise have done.  This isn't magic.  It's just part of being human.  Humans with strong motivators do more and accomplish more than humans with weak motivators.   So in the end, religion doesn't stand out in this regard.  Sure, if someone really believes it, they might overcome something.  So what?

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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Will to live

If that is what your talking about. I have been in a few life and death situations, and my will to live and to see another day drove me (and adrenaline and training) saved my butt more than a few times. But I hardly would call that something that saved me by simply believing it would save me. I did what I knew what would save me and hoped that the other person/people had less experience and/or were slower than me in their reaction time. As well my training saved me a few times in situations that I had no real control, crashes and the alike.


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Not only do I believe faith

Not only do I believe faith will not help in an emergency, it could be quite harmful.  It's good that the US Airways flight 1549 pilot didn't take time to pray when he needed to fly the plane.  That idea that faith can save you in an emergency was suggested in that Carrie Underwood song "Jesus Take the Wheel."  Maybe that's why I can't stand that song (but more likely it's just a lame song).

Responsibility: A detachable burden easily shifted to the shoulders of God, Fate, Fortune, Luck or one's neighbor. In the days of astrology it was customary to unload it upon a star. ~Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary, 1911


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IIRC Nelson Mendela used it

IIRC Nelson Mendela used it when he was in prison.

 

 

 


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Thomathy wrote:Rising Sun

Thomathy wrote:

Rising Sun wrote:

Just wondering what all of you think about this scenario.  In a life or death situation, do you believe it is it possible that having faith in something beyond our puny ideas could save us if we were put into a situation that demanded trust in something behond ourselves?  Could this belief have anything to do with the end result which is survival? 

I'm not sure what you mean.  Are you intentionally equivocating between different uses of the word faith?  In one instance you seem to be using it mean belief without evidence and at the next moment you are using it to mean trust (albeit in a vague thing).

Judging from what I think you do mean, you're talking about if having belief without evidence (faith) in an ambiguous something beyond our 'puny ideas' and ourselves could potentially save us in an undescribed life or death scenario.  I can't answer that question.  You haven't described any scenario in which anyone can judge whether having faith in something could possibly aid in survival.  Care to be a bit more specific and also to decide in which sense you mean to use faith?

You interpreted my question correctly.  To clarify though, I'll use the scenario of the holocaust.  Do you believe that faith in god may have helped to keep people hopeful, and thus able to cope with the terrible situation they were in.  Maybe their faith staved off depression, or a suppression of their immune system which would have caused them to succumb to illness more rapidly.  Maybe positive thinking which did not require faith in a higher power would have done the same thing, I don't know.  If faith plays a role in emotional and physical health, beyond just positive thinking, isn't this a reason to believe in something beyond what logic and reasoning tell us? This idea of faith can relate to any situation where one needs to hang onto a belief in order to get through hard times.  Even if that faith brings nothing more than peace of mind, what is wrong with having it?


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Rising Sun wrote:You

Rising Sun wrote:

You interpreted my question correctly.  To clarify though, I'll use the scenario of the holocaust.  Do you believe that faith in god may have helped to keep people hopeful, and thus able to cope with the terrible situation they were in.  Maybe their faith staved off depression, or a suppression of their immune system which would have caused them to succumb to illness more rapidly.  Maybe positive thinking which did not require faith in a higher power would have done the same thing, I don't know.  If faith plays a role in emotional and physical health, beyond just positive thinking, isn't this a reason to believe in something beyond what we can see with our eyes, or conclude with our reasoning?  This idea of faith can relate to any situation where one needs to hang onto a belief in order to get through hard times.  Even if that faith brings nothing more than peace of mind, what is wrong with having it?

 

... Im pretty sure that attempting to kill my nazi oppressors would have worked much better then having faith that god will make it all better, while being rounded up and tossed into a gas chamber >.>

 

but hey... thats just me! im a man of action

 

(Edit, also note... ANOTHER thing that could have been solved through precious violence)

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Answers in Gene Simmons

Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:

Faith in what exactly?

 

Seriously, if you mean the faith that living for another day is worthwhile then I suppose so. However, if you had something more specific in mind, then you need to consider what that is. Just for shits and giggles, let's say that there is an after life and you spent all of your spiritual bucks on meeting saint peter at the gates of heaven.

 

Now you actually get there and it turns out that it was Mumbo Jumbo, god of the Congo that was the guy you should have been dealing with all of your life. Depending on how things work up there, that could potentially be a big oopsie.

 

Yes, that would be a big oopsie.  On the other hand, wouldn't it be a big oopsie too if by your seeing life as simply the byproduct of chemical reactions based on a chance happening, that you lost the wonder of it all, especially if it turned out that there was more to it than that?  Just playing the devil's advocate here.  Smiling


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latincanuck wrote:If that is

latincanuck wrote:

If that is what your talking about. I have been in a few life and death situations, and my will to live and to see another day drove me (and adrenaline and training) saved my butt more than a few times. But I hardly would call that something that saved me by simply believing it would save me. I did what I knew what would save me and hoped that the other person/people had less experience and/or were slower than me in their reaction time. As well my training saved me a few times in situations that I had no real control, crashes and the alike.

I'm glad you're okay laincanuck.  I'm sure your training had everything to do with your survival.  I am not at all suggesting that faith alone, without skill and training could save a person's life.  But where it possibly could help is giving someone the belief that they can handle whatever comes their way.  Once again, this could just be positive thinking.  Maybe that's what faith is.  An abiding trust that everything will turn out okay, not in a naiive way, but in a way that keeps one persevering even in difficult times.


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Rising Sun wrote: Thomathy

Rising Sun wrote:

Thomathy wrote:

Rising Sun wrote:

Just wondering what all of you think about this scenario.  In a life or death situation, do you believe it is it possible that having faith in something beyond our puny ideas could save us if we were put into a situation that demanded trust in something behond ourselves?  Could this belief have anything to do with the end result which is survival? 

I'm not sure what you mean.  Are you intentionally equivocating between different uses of the word faith?  In one instance you seem to be using it mean belief without evidence and at the next moment you are using it to mean trust (albeit in a vague thing).

Judging from what I think you do mean, you're talking about if having belief without evidence (faith) in an ambiguous something beyond our 'puny ideas' and ourselves could potentially save us in an undescribed life or death scenario.  I can't answer that question.  You haven't described any scenario in which anyone can judge whether having faith in something could possibly aid in survival.  Care to be a bit more specific and also to decide in which sense you mean to use faith?

Do you believe that faith in god may have helped to keep people hopeful, and thus able to cope with the terrible situation they were in.  Maybe their faith staved off depression, or a suppression of their immune system which would have caused them to succumb to illness more rapidly.  Maybe positive thinking which did not require faith in a higher power would have done the same thing, I don't know.
[Emphasis added.]Other than that you're clearly exhibiting a bias (you know, you already believe that faith does that and only that perhaps positive thinking does the same), isn't it obvious that yes, in that instance, having belief that things will get better could help some people survive.  Some, but not all.  Which is really the problem when we're examining this.  If not everyone who has faith survives, then it becomes problematic to ascribe survival to faith without invoking confirmation bias.  In this case faith and positive thinking are the same thing.  Either could make you do something you might not otherwise do or could appear to be working when things happen in your favour.  The latter is confirmation bias and it's fallacious.

Quote:
If faith plays a role in emotional and physical health, beyond just positive thinking, isn't this a reason to believe in something beyond what logic and reasoning tell us?
I don't know what you mean exactly.  How can it be beyond 'just positive thinking'?  First faith would have to be shown to be anything more than positive thinking.  It would be an impossible thing to measure.  Imagine, someone believing more in something based on belief without evidence than someone else?  (Just try not to invoke a no true Scotsman there.)  Contrary, if positive thinking is used, it may be justifiable either in retrospect (confirmation bias) or before hand (if a person has some good reason to be positive about their chances of survival).  With faith, there is never any justification.  The point to faith is that it doesn't require justification, that it is belief without evidence.  If it were anything else it wouldn't be faith.

To cap:  All faith is positive thinking.  All positive thinking is not faith.

To reiterate:

positive thinking/faith: I can invoke positive thinking when scratching a lottery ticket in terms of my winning.  I believe that I will win.  There is no way for me to know what my liklihood of winning is and there is no reason for me to believe that I have any better chance to win for my belief that I will.  This is faith (belief without evidence).  It is interchangeable.

positive thinking: I can invoke positive thinking in regards to my chances of surviving stage one prostate cancer.  I believe that I will survive.  There is a very good chance of surviving stage one prostate cancer when it is treated.  It is medically verified and I have been assured by professionals and by the available literature that I am likely to survive.  This is not faith (belief without evidence).

Quote:
This idea of faith can relate to any situation where one needs to hang onto a belief in order to get through hard times.  Even if that faith brings nothing more than peace of mind, what is wrong with having it?
Even if that belief is unfounded?  Yes, sometimes.  In medicine it's called the placebo effect.  In psychology it is a motivator.  Sometimes when people believe something that gives them hope, makes them happy or which they otherwise believe will help them or make them better, they recover from sickness or do something to survive or perform that they wouldn't have normally.

Have you even seen the cartoon or sitcom episodes where someone is tricked into believing they have an attribute they don't so that they'll do something they would otherwise not because of some reason?  That person believes they can do it, even though their belief is objectively false or unfounded.  Same thing.  Now, go watch Recess.

BigUniverse wrote,

"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."


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econgineer wrote:Not only do

econgineer wrote:

Not only do I believe faith will not help in an emergency, it could be quite harmful.  It's good that the US Airways flight 1549 pilot didn't take time to pray when he needed to fly the plane.  That idea that faith can save you in an emergency was suggested in that Carrie Underwood song "Jesus Take the Wheel."  Maybe that's why I can't stand that song (but more likely it's just a lame song).

I can see where that song could rub someone the wrong way.  I just interpret it as resting in the figurative arms of something larger than oneself, which might keep one from panicking.  Of course, nothing could have taken the place of good old fashion skill and quick thinking in the case of US flight 1549.  But remember the case of the defendent who shot a judge and a couple other people, and then took a woman hostage in her apartment?  She calmed him down by talking kindly and using biblical terms.  She referred to a book she was reading.  Anyone remember what book it was?  She used her own faith to stay calm and think on her feet, which probably saved her life.  He ended up thanking her, and then surrendered to police.


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Thomathy wrote:Rising Sun

Thomathy wrote:

Rising Sun wrote:

Thomathy wrote:

Rising Sun wrote:

Just wondering what all of you think about this scenario.  In a life or death situation, do you believe it is it possible that having faith in something beyond our puny ideas could save us if we were put into a situation that demanded trust in something behond ourselves?  Could this belief have anything to do with the end result which is survival? 

I'm not sure what you mean.  Are you intentionally equivocating between different uses of the word faith?  In one instance you seem to be using it mean belief without evidence and at the next moment you are using it to mean trust (albeit in a vague thing).

Judging from what I think you do mean, you're talking about if having belief without evidence (faith) in an ambiguous something beyond our 'puny ideas' and ourselves could potentially save us in an undescribed life or death scenario.  I can't answer that question.  You haven't described any scenario in which anyone can judge whether having faith in something could possibly aid in survival.  Care to be a bit more specific and also to decide in which sense you mean to use faith?

 

Do you believe that faith in god may have helped to keep people hopeful, and thus able to cope with the terrible situation they were in.  Maybe their faith staved off depression, or a suppression of their immune system which would have caused them to succumb to illness more rapidly.  Maybe positive thinking which did not require faith in a higher power would have done the same thing, I don't know.
[Emphasis added.]Other than that you're clearly exhibiting a bias (you know, you already believe that faith does that and only that perhaps positive thinking does the same), isn't it obvious that yes, in that instance, having belief that things will get better could help some people survive.  Some, but not all.  Which is really the problem when we're examining this.  If not everyone who has faith survives, then it becomes problematic to ascribe survival to faith without invoking confirmation bias.  In this case faith and positive thinking are the same thing.  Either could make you do something you might not otherwise do or could appear to be working when things happen in your favour.  The latter is confirmation bias and it's fallacious.

Quote:
If faith plays a role in emotional and physical health, beyond just positive thinking, isn't this a reason to believe in something beyond what logic and reasoning tell us?
I don't know what you mean exactly.  How can it be beyond 'just positive thinking'?  First faith would have to be shown to be anything more than positive thinking.  It would be an impossible thing to measure.  Imagine, someone believing more in something based on belief without evidence than someone else?  (Just try not to invoke a no true Scotsman there.)  Contrary, if positive thinking is used, it may be justifiable either in retrospect (confirmation bias) or before hand (if a person has some good reason to be positive about their chances of survival).  With faith, there is never any justification.  The point to faith is that it doesn't require justification, that it is belief without evidence.  If it were anything else it wouldn't be faith.

Rising Sun:  But haven't you seen people who had faith that things would turn out okay, and it did in the end, even though things did not look favorable?  This is faith without any evidence to back that faith up, and you are right, there is no justification for it.  But why is this way of thinking wrong? 

To cap:  All faith is positive thinking.  All positive thinking is not faith.

To reiterate:

positive thinking/faith: I can invoke positive thinking when scratching a lottery ticket in terms of my winning.  I believe that I will win.  There is no way for me to know what my liklihood of winning is and there is no reason for me to believe that I have any better chance to win for my belief that I will.  This is faith (belief without evidence).  It is interchangeable.

positive thinking: I can invoke positive thinking in regards to my chances of surviving stage one prostate cancer.  I believe that I will survive.  There is a very good chance of surviving stage one prostate cancer when it is treated.  It is medically verified and I have been assured by professionals and by the available literature that I am likely to survive.  This is not faith (belief without evidence).

Quote:
This idea of faith can relate to any situation where one needs to hang onto a belief in order to get through hard times.  Even if that faith brings nothing more than peace of mind, what is wrong with having it?
Even if that belief is unfounded?  Yes, sometimes.  In medicine it's called the placebo effect.  In psychology it is a motivator.  Sometimes when people believe something that gives them hope, makes them happy or which they otherwise believe will help them or make them better, they recover from sickness or do something to survive or perform that they wouldn't have normally.

Rising Sun:  That is what I was referring to earlier.  So what is wrong with having this kind of faith? 

Have you even seen the cartoon or sitcom episodes where someone is tricked into believing they have an attribute they don't so that they'll do something they would otherwise not because of some reason?  That person believes they can do it, even though their belief is objectively false or unfounded.  Same thing.  Now, go watch Recess.

This was an exaggeration but there is some truth to it in the sense that when we believe we have an attribute, we actually acquire that attribute.  Maybe the act of believing you are capable of something gives you the courage to go ahead and do it.   I don't think this is necessarily a trick.  I think it is a real phenomenon that can change one's ability to succeed in something they otherwise thought they couldn't.

Rising Sun:  I still can't find the quote button when I am responding to a post.  It's probably right in front of me. Sad  Someone gave me directions on the other thread but I can't get to it.  My computer freezes when I open my old thread.  If someone could cut and paste those directions onto here, I would appreciate it.

 


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Rising Sun wrote:Rising

Rising Sun wrote:

Rising Sun:  I still can't find the quote button when I am responding to a post.  It's probably right in front of me. Sad  Someone gave me directions on the other thread but I can't get to it.  My computer freezes when I open my old thread.  If someone could cut and paste those directions onto here, I would appreciate it.

 

 

Sorry, i really cant help that level of idiocy...

 

 

Fail troll is fail, you've been using the quote button since day one... even the post where you ask for help you used the damn button -_- just go away...

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Thomathy wrote:Rising Sun

Doomed, that's not nice.  I am sorry if I don't have your knowledge; if I did I wouldn't need to ask for help.  When you have never learned something, it appears difficult but once you get the hang of it, everyone else looks stupid because you already know how it works. So why can't you help me instead of falsely judging me. Sad


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Dead men tell know tales.If

Dead men tell know tales.

If people pray in an life or death emergency, we only hear from the survivors. So they all claim prayer worked for them. The dead people tell no tales of how faith and prayer failed them. So prayer is 100% effective because the sample group doesn't include dead people.

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


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The Doomed Soul wrote:Rising

The Doomed Soul wrote:

Rising Sun wrote:

Rising Sun:  I still can't find the quote button when I am responding to a post.  It's probably right in front of me. Sad  Someone gave me directions on the other thread but I can't get to it.  My computer freezes when I open my old thread.  If someone could cut and paste those directions onto here, I would appreciate it.

 

 

Sorry, i really cant help that level of idiocy...

Rising Sun: I never had this problem in any other forum, not that I've been to that many.

 

 Fail troll is fail, you've been using the quote button since day one... even the post where you ask for help you used the damn button -_- just go away...

I know I have been using the quote button, but when I click on someone's post, the quote button is gone.  I am risking looking foolish so I can get some answers.  Obviously, they won't be coming from you. You can go away, no one asked you to come into this thread.  And stop calling me troll just because you don't like me.


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EXC wrote:Dead men tell know

EXC wrote:

Dead men tell know tales.

If people pray in an life or death emergency, we only hear from the survivors. So they all claim prayer worked for them. The dead people tell no tales of how faith and prayer failed them. So prayer is 100% effective because the sample group doesn't include dead people.

That's so true.  I always have wondered why people who survive a plane crash say that god was with them?  What about the people who died?  Are they actually believing that it was their prayer that helped them and just because the others [might not] have prayed that they were doomed?  And even if there was no prayer involved, how can anyone believe that this god saved them when others were not saved?  And if there was such a god, why would he show such favoratism? I never could understand this.


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I think he means a quote

I think he means a quote button in the text editor.  It's not there.  To put text within a quote box, type [quote ] without the space and to close the box type [/quote ] without the space.  It's really easy.  Simply keep your response out of the quotes.  To have a name in the quote box type the name how it appears and follow this example:

Rising Sun wrote:
(again, without the space I put in)

for instance:

Rising Sun wrote:
I don't know how to use the quote function.  Someone help me, please.

It's really easy, Rising Sun, just do what I've done.

Rising Sun wrote:
I don't know how to use the quote function.  Someone help me, please.

It's really easy, Rising Sun, just do what I've done.

BigUniverse wrote,

"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."


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Rising Sun wrote:I know I

Rising Sun wrote:

I know I have been using the quote button, but when I click on someone's post, the quote button is gone.  I am risking looking foolish so I can get some answers. 

The quote button disappears... because you pressed it, get sent to the reply page, with the message your quoting already in text, the reason the quote is no longer there is akin to that of a Folder on your computer

 

Do you open that and wonder where the folder icon went? no... because your inside of it -_-

 

Also note, that using Windex on your Windows OS will not remove bugs... >.>

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Thomathy wrote:I think he

Thomathy wrote:

I think he means a quote button in the text editor.  It's not there.  To put text within a quote box, type [quote ] without the space and to close the box type [/quote ] without the space.  It's really easy.  Simply keep your response out of the quotes.  To have a name in the quote box type the name how it appears and follow this example:

Rising Sun wrote:
(again, without the space I put in)

 

This is could possibly be true as well, but it wouldnt give me a premise to mock him with, now would it ?

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Rising Sun wrote:That's so

Rising Sun wrote:

That's so true.  I always have wondered why people who survive a plane crash say that god was with them?  What about the people who died?  Are they actually believing that it was their prayer that helped them and just because the others [might not] have prayed that they were doomed?  And even if there was no prayer involved, how can anyone believe that this god saved them when others were not saved?  And if there was such a god, why would he show such favoratism? I never could understand this.

 

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


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Cpt_pineapple wrote:IIRC

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

IIRC Nelson Mendela used it when he was in prison.

 

 

 

  So does Kent Hovind. 


 

Patrick is an edgy edgelord.


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The Doomed Soul wrote:Rising

The Doomed Soul wrote:

Rising Sun wrote:

I know I have been using the quote button, but when I click on someone's post, the quote button is gone.  I am risking looking foolish so I can get some answers. 

The quote button disappears... because you pressed it, get sent to the reply page, with the message your quoting already in text, the reason the quote is no longer there is akin to that of a Folder on your computer

 

Do you open that and wonder where the folder icon went? no... because your inside of it -_-

 

Also note, that using Windex on your Windows OS will not remove bugs... >.>

 

 I get that Doomed Soul, but that is not how it worked in other forums.  You highlighted what you wanted to go inside the box and then you clicked on the quote button. 

 


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Thomathy wrote:I think he

Thomathy wrote:

I think he means a quote button in the text editor.  It's not there.  To put text within a quote box, type [quote ] without the space and to close the box type [/quote ] without the space.  It's really easy.  Simply keep your response out of the quotes.  To have a name in the quote box type the name how it appears and follow this example:

Rising Sun wrote:
(again, without the space I put in)

for instance:

Rising Sun wrote:
I don't know how to use the quote function.  Someone help me, please.

It's really easy, Rising Sun, just do what I've done.

Rising Sun wrote:
I don't know how to use the quote function.  Someone help me, please.

It's really easy, Rising Sun, just do what I've done.

I will try exactly what you said to do.  I hope I get it right or I will be the laughingstock of this place. Sad  By the way, I am not male.


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.... /sigh ... think outside

.... /sigh ... think outside the box...

 

Be aware that the # of [Qu.otes] must match the # of [/Qu.otes]  , every beginning has an end, so to speak... or else you end up putting words in poor Thomathy's mouth >.> again

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Why do I feel dumber? 

Why do I feel dumber?


 


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Thomathy wrote:Why do I feel

Thomathy wrote:

Why do I feel dumber?


 

 

Thomathy, thanks again for helping me.  I think I'm getting the knack.  If I make a mistake I know you won't ridicule me. Eye-wink


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econgineer wrote:Not

econgineer wrote:
Not only do I believe faith will not help in an emergency, it could be quite harmful. It's good that the US Airways flight 1549 pilot didn't take time to pray when he needed to fly the plane.

 

And yet people called the landing a miracle. It was not a miracle, it was a highly skilled pilot who was supremely lucky that there was not a barge in his way.

 

econgineer wrote:
That idea that faith can save you in an emergency was suggested in that Carrie Underwood song "Jesus Take the Wheel." Maybe that's why I can't stand that song (but more likely it's just a lame song).

 

The single most annoying thing about Carrie Underwood (apart from that song) is the fact that she has never done porn. If you turn you speakers off before watching that video, you can just imagine Jenna Jameson pulling the beads out of her ass.

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Hi Rising Sun. I posted a

Hi Rising Sun. I posted a link explaining the quote function in the other thread. Here it is again.

OH MY GOD!  Please Embed Long Links Like This!  -HD

About your question, I could probably dream up some crazy scenario where you get saved by almost anything, so yes, faith can save you in an emergency.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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Rising Sun wrote:latincanuck

Rising Sun wrote:

latincanuck wrote:

If that is what your talking about. I have been in a few life and death situations, and my will to live and to see another day drove me (and adrenaline and training) saved my butt more than a few times. But I hardly would call that something that saved me by simply believing it would save me. I did what I knew what would save me and hoped that the other person/people had less experience and/or were slower than me in their reaction time. As well my training saved me a few times in situations that I had no real control, crashes and the alike.

I'm glad you're okay laincanuck.  I'm sure your training had everything to do with your survival.  I am not at all suggesting that faith alone, without skill and training could save a person's life.  But where it possibly could help is giving someone the belief that they can handle whatever comes their way.  Once again, this could just be positive thinking.  Maybe that's what faith is.  An abiding trust that everything will turn out okay, not in a naiive way, but in a way that keeps one persevering even in difficult times.

Positive thinking and faith are 2 different things really. Again this comes down to the definition of faith and how you are using the term faith. Faith in the religious sense is believing without any evidence. Faith as in the everyday term (faith in the abilities of your doctor) comes from experience.

My assumption is in most of my life and death situations was the person attacking me was a better fighter/solider than me, so I had to push myself that bit more harder and in the end trust my training as well to survive. In my everyday life, even in the hardest of times (divorce for example) I understand that life is a bunch of ups and downs, there are times I will be at the top and other times I will be at my lowest point, but in time, and if I persevere things will change. Now that's not to say that there are people that use their "faith" in god to get them thru hard times, however the problem lies that when it doesn't change they either blame their god, or they blame themselves for not having enough faith, which gets to be harmful in the long run, this is one of the dangers of those that rely on faith to much, at least in my experience. I have seen soliders killed because they were praying (terrified really) when they should have been shooting or running, I can say this much, god was not on their side at that moment.


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Quote:Answers in Gene

Quote:
Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:

econgineer wrote:
Not only do I believe faith will not help in an emergency, it could be quite harmful. It's good that the US Airways flight 1549 pilot didn't take time to pray when he needed to fly the plane.

 

 And yet people called the landing a miracle. It was not a miracle, it was a highly skilled pilot who was supremely lucky that there was not a barge in his way.

 

I agree.  When they called it a miracle I thought to myself, this is not a miracle, in a supernatural sense.  But it probably felt like a miracle to the people on the plane, since it was a longshot that everything would be in perfect order for the aircraft to land safely.   It is also very rare in a plane crash that no one gets hurt, hence they call it a miracle.


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Quote:latincanuck

Quote:
latincanuck wrote:

Rising Sun wrote:

latincanuck wrote:

If that is what your talking about. I have been in a few life and death situations, and my will to live and to see another day drove me (and adrenaline and training) saved my butt more than a few times. But I hardly would call that something that saved me by simply believing it would save me. I did what I knew what would save me and hoped that the other person/people had less experience and/or were slower than me in their reaction time. As well my training saved me a few times in situations that I had no real control, crashes and the alike.

I'm glad you're okay laincanuck.  I'm sure your training had everything to do with your survival.  I am not at all suggesting that faith alone, without skill and training could save a person's life.  But where it possibly could help is giving someone the belief that they can handle whatever comes their way.  Once again, this could just be positive thinking.  Maybe that's what faith is.  An abiding trust that everything will turn out okay, not in a naiive way, but in a way that keeps one persevering even in difficult times.

Positive thinking and faith are 2 different things really. Again this comes down to the definition of faith and how you are using the term faith. Faith in the religious sense is believing without any evidence. Faith as in the everyday term (faith in the abilities of your doctor) comes from experience.

My assumption is in most of my life and death situations was the person attacking me was a better fighter/solider than me, so I had to push myself that bit more harder and in the end trust my training as well to survive. In my everyday life, even in the hardest of times (divorce for example) I understand that life is a bunch of ups and downs, there are times I will be at the top and other times I will be at my lowest point, but in time, and if I persevere things will change. Now that's not to say that there are people that use their "faith" in god to get them thru hard times, however the problem lies that when it doesn't change they either blame their god, or they blame themselves for not having enough faith, which gets to be harmful in the long run, this is one of the dangers of those that rely on faith to much, at least in my experience. I have seen soliders killed because they were praying (terrified really) when they should have been shooting or running, I can say this much, god was not on their side at that moment.

You are right, it very much depends on the context in which you are using the word.  In a religious sense, I can see the danger of using one's faith without taking responsibility for one's own survival.  This could end up backfiring because that's not how the world works.  I don't believe there is any connection between prayer and a god who will then reward those people for their piousness. 


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butterbattle wrote:Hi Rising

butterbattle wrote:

Hi Rising Sun. I posted a link explaining the quote function in the other thread. Here it is again.

LONG LINKS FUCK UP THREADS and then get quoted and are a nightmare for mods -HD

About your question, I could probably dream up some crazy scenario where you get saved by almost anything, so yes, faith can save you in an emergency.

Thanks butterbattle, I will check it out next time I come online.  I believe faith can save a person only if he takes action.  Faith in one's abilitity to survive could motivate a person to do what he needs to do to survive.  But to survive, and call it the hand of god is true only in the sense that everything that happens in life is the hand of god, that is, if you believe in determinism.  No one gets special treatment by some personal god who is looking out for them.  That's my opinion, of course.


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Rising Sun wrote:Yes, that

Rising Sun wrote:

Yes, that would be a big oopsie.  On the other hand, wouldn't it be a big oopsie too if by your seeing life as simply the byproduct of chemical reactions based on a chance happening, that you lost the wonder of it all, especially if it turned out that there was more to it than that?  Just playing the devil's advocate here.  Smiling

So no one's going to touch this?

Ok.

"Do not, as some ungracious pastors do, show me the steep and thorny way to heaven. Whiles, like a puff'd and reckless libertine, himself the primrose path of dalliance treads. And recks not his own rede."


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:3

cervello_marcio wrote:

Rising Sun wrote:

Yes, that would be a big oopsie.  On the other hand, wouldn't it be a big oopsie too if by your seeing life as simply the byproduct of chemical reactions based on a chance happening, that you lost the wonder of it all, especially if it turned out that there was more to it than that?  Just playing the devil's advocate here.  Smiling

So no one's going to touch this?

Ok.

 

Wow it's been forever since I've seen that.

 

Still good. That song is going to be popping back up in my head though now for the next week or so.

Theism is why we can't have nice things.


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:3

Rising Sun wrote:

Yes, that would be a big oopsie.  On the other hand, wouldn't it be a big oopsie too if by your seeing life as simply the byproduct of chemical reactions based on a chance happening, that you lost the wonder of it all, especially if it turned out that there was more to it than that?  Just playing the devil's advocate here.  Smiling

 

 

What wonder of what is lost exactly? Just curious.

Theism is why we can't have nice things.


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ClockCat wrote:Rising Sun

ClockCat wrote:

Rising Sun wrote:

Yes, that would be a big oopsie.  On the other hand, wouldn't it be a big oopsie too if by your seeing life as simply the byproduct of chemical reactions based on a chance happening, that you lost the wonder of it all, especially if it turned out that there was more to it than that?  Just playing the devil's advocate here.  Smiling

 

 

What wonder of what is lost exactly? Just curious.

To me, there is something lost with the idea that we are only chemical replications of existing material.  Of course, it might be my emotions playing a part in denouncing this idea, but this does not, by itself, make my ideas wrong.  The truth is that maybe I am defending my right to see the world through a different lens; one that may not be scientific in your view, for not providing enough evidence, but not to be discarded either if you include reason as part of the scientific process. 


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Rising Sun wrote:ClockCat

Rising Sun wrote:

ClockCat wrote:

Rising Sun wrote:

Yes, that would be a big oopsie.  On the other hand, wouldn't it be a big oopsie too if by your seeing life as simply the byproduct of chemical reactions based on a chance happening, that you lost the wonder of it all, especially if it turned out that there was more to it than that?  Just playing the devil's advocate here.  Smiling

 

 

What wonder of what is lost exactly? Just curious.

To me, there is something lost with the idea that we are only chemical replications of existing material.  Of course, it might be my emotions playing a part in denouncing this idea, but this does not, by itself, make my ideas wrong.  The truth is that maybe I am defending my right to see the world through a different lens; one that may not be scientific in your view, for not providing enough evidence, but not to be discarded either if you include reason as part of the scientific process. 

There must be a creek nearby ...


 

BigUniverse wrote,

"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."


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maybe it's me

But i find it quite depressing to believe that we are the product of a god that only desires our worship (as so many gods and goddess desire our worship). Intern the natural explanation gives us such wonder about the us, the world and the universe, that it far supercedes any religious idea of our creation (which is practically always to worship some egomanical god). I mean you are the product of existing material, your fathers sperm (his DNA) and your mothers egg (her DNA) which combine made you. Yet you are not exactly half you mother or half your father per se you are your own person as well, with seperate desires and needs than those of your mother and father. It's actualy quite amazing.


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Rising Sun wrote:Just

Rising Sun wrote:

Just wondering what all of you think about this scenario.  In a life or death situation, do you believe it is it possible that having faith in something beyond our puny ideas could save us if we were put into a situation that demanded trust in something behind ourselves?  Could this belief have anything to do with the end result which is survival? 

Surely, faith, is often the sustaining of hope among poor and depraved communities through out the world, the last remaining refuge to starve off despair. 

In fact evangelical atheist are often motivated by faith, faith in a belief that mankind will ultimately be liberated by atheism, that the spreading of atheism, allows men to break off the chains that have been keeping the down, from being their true moral character. Faith is sort of like the fuel that keeps them foaming i mean going. It's faith, not derived by reason, or logic, but derived by the sure awe and allure they afford their own disbelief, to give it powers that it doesn't actually possess. 

 

 


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latincanuck wrote:But i find

latincanuck wrote:

But i find it quite depressing to believe that we are the product of a god that only desires our worship (as so many gods and goddess desire our worship). Intern the natural explanation gives us such wonder about the us 

Whose us? Natural explanation of the mechanics of the universe gives who "such awe" and wonder?

This sort of dribble is by far one of the reason i find atheist to be a pathetic joke, disconnected from the world around them. Your "awe" and "wonder" is sort of like a taste preference, you may really enjoy the taste of shit, the rest of us have decided to pass. 

Stop trying to pass off your ugly ass wife as the most beautiful women in the world. 


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manofmanynames wrote:Rising

manofmanynames wrote:

Rising Sun wrote:

Just wondering what all of you think about this scenario.  In a life or death situation, do you believe it is it possible that having faith in something beyond our puny ideas could save us if we were put into a situation that demanded trust in something behind ourselves?  Could this belief have anything to do with the end result which is survival? 

Surely, faith, is often the sustaining of hope among poor and depraved communities through out the world, the last remaining refuge to starve off despair. 

In fact evangelical atheist are often motivated by faith, faith in a belief that mankind will ultimately be liberated by atheism, that the spreading of atheism, allows men to break off the chains that have been keeping the down, from being their true moral character. Faith is sort of like the fuel that keeps them foaming i mean going. It's faith, not derived by reason, or logic, but derived by the sure awe and allure they afford their own disbelief, to give it powers that it doesn't actually possess. 

 

 

If wish I could grow flowers in my ass and pull them out so prettily.  Do you honestly mean to say that atheists have a belief without evidence that atheism will do all that you say and that atheism has any powers let alone that belief without evidence could give it powers it doesn't possess?  You're flowers stink.


 

BigUniverse wrote,

"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."


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manofmanynames

manofmanynames wrote:

latincanuck wrote:

But i find it quite depressing to believe that we are the product of a god that only desires our worship (as so many gods and goddess desire our worship). Intern the natural explanation gives us such wonder about the us 

Whose us? Natural explanation of the mechanics of the universe gives who "such awe" and wonder?

This sort of dribble is by far one of the reason i find atheist to be a pathetic joke, disconnected from the world around them. Your "awe" and "wonder" is sort of like a taste preference, you may really enjoy the taste of shit, the rest of us have decided to pass. 

Stop trying to pass off your ugly ass wife as the most beautiful women in the world. 

Funny ... Is there anything about your awe and wonder that

isn't

a taste preference?  At least the bloody universe objectively exists.


 

BigUniverse wrote,

"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."


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manofmanynames

           If it's that  time of the month then take a midol and chill out.  Pissing you or any theist off is a good thing, but trying to pass atheisim off as some kind of leap-of-faith religion is assinine to an extreme; declaring evangelical atheisim is the ultimate absurdity.           Why the personal attack on Latincanucks wife?   The wife he sleeps with  is gorgeous, she's not his wife but she is a looker.

 

"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."

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Jeffrick wrote: Why the

Jeffrick wrote:

 Why the personal attack on Latincanucks wife?   The wife he sleeps with  is gorgeous, she's not his wife but she is a hooker.

 

It was in reference to the awe and wonder he was peddling of the natural explanations of the universe, not his literal wife.


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Jeffrick wrote:Pissing you

Jeffrick wrote:
Pissing you or any theist off is a good thing, but trying to pass atheisim off as some kind of leap-of-faith religion is assinine to an extreme; declaring evangelical atheisim is the ultimate absurdity.

Well, first of all no one said that atheism was some kind of leap-of-faith religion, but rather that some atheist peddle it as such. And it doesn't take a theist to point this out, atheist such as John Gray have been pointing this out for sometime. So you're saying there are no atheist who go around trying to spread disbelief, who believe atheism is an ultimately liberating force, and desire to spread it to all corners of the world? Isn't the motto of this site "Believe in God we can fix that?", the assumption being that something is broke by a god belief, and we're made whole or better by being atheist?  Come on dude, you may not consider yourself to be of that type, but you'd have to be fairly deluded to deny the presence of such atheist. You never heard of positivism?

What's weird is that you often hear Dawkins, Harris and Hitchens and other atheist characterize atheist of communist era Russia as being "religious", with their images of Stalin, without realizing that their own beliefs, the mastubortory fawning over all things science, and the supposed magical shit it can do, isn't all that much different

 

 

 

 


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ClockCat wrote:Rising Sun

ClockCat wrote:

Rising Sun wrote:

Yes, that would be a big oopsie.  On the other hand, wouldn't it be a big oopsie too if by your seeing life as simply the byproduct of chemical reactions based on a chance happening, that you lost the wonder of it all, especially if it turned out that there was more to it than that?  Just playing the devil's advocate here.  Smiling

What wonder of what is lost exactly? Just curious.

I just think that the idea of watch without a watchmaker (and I don't mean this in a literal sense) creates a rather mundane world, even though I am sure all of us appreciate the beauty of nature, in all of its myriad forms.  And I don't feel that just because I can't explain this 'intelligence' of which I speak, that puts me into a default position.  So many things come to fruition that people have had faith in.  Should they not have had that faith because they didn't have proof of its eventual occurrence, at the time?  I like having hope that things will turn out fine instead of the belief that we will eventually go extinct.  Whether or not I am wrong for this belief is a matter of opinion.  Part of my happiness comes from being hopeful, and if this hope has as its foundation the faith that the world is not going to collapse or end in some natural disaster, then so be it.  I will remain happy whether you think I'm in la la land or not. It's not a bad price to pay because there is no one that I really need to prove anything to. Eye-wink

 

 

 

 


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Seriously... can you take a

Seriously... can you take a day to figure out how to properly quote some one? I could start you an entire thread devoted to your quote testing

 

Getting very annoying to read your words quoted to another persons mouth -_-

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manofmanynames wrote:

manofmanynames wrote:
Surely, faith, is often the sustaining of hope among poor and depraved communities through out the world, the last remaining refuge to starve off despair. 

In fact evangelical atheist are often motivated by faith, faith in a belief that mankind will ultimately be liberated by atheism, that the spreading of atheism, allows men to break off the chains that have been keeping the down, from being their true moral character. Faith is sort of like the fuel that keeps them foaming i mean going. It's faith, not derived by reason, or logic, but derived by the sure awe and allure they afford their own disbelief, to give it powers that it doesn't actually possess.

So remind my again MoMN: you believe in completely unfounded superstitions because atheists also believe certain things without evidence?

You: "Atheists have faith too!"

Me: "So...?"

 

Me: "Though I can't ultimately prove it, I hope that one day everyone in the world will be well educated and safe, thus making them very resistant to superstition. Apart from hoping, I also see in history, current social statistics, and my own personal experience, that such an outcome is not at all unlikely"

 

You: "Though I can't ultimately prove it, I believe that it is a fact of the universe that a man was born of a virgin and later rose from the dead and/or that I will live for eternity and/or I will be reincarnated and/or a man met the Arch Angel Gabriel and wrote down God's law, as dictated by said angel, and later flew on a winged horse to heaven. I choose to believe some of these claims while discarding the rest as obvious superstitions."

 

How is it that yours and my position are equally valid?

 

And furthermore, if you insist they are equally valid, how is that an argument for choosing your position over mine? They are equally valid remember?

 

 

 

To Rising Sun

 

I think the heart of your question is in thinking of Holocaust survivors. Did their superstitious faith help them? Possibly, but if so how?

By strenghening their immune system through positive thinking?

If so, it isn't really their faith that's helping them, it's positive thinking, which of course could just as easily come about by thinking about seeing their family again.

If a group of dyed-in-the-wool atheists were rounded up in a concentration camp, do you think fewer of them would survive than a group of people who had some form of superstitious faith?

Or do you think that some would die and some would live, the ones surviving being a mixture of people in good physical condition, some that were just lucky, and some through shear force of will, spurred on in part by faith in a better tomorrow/faith in a love of their family/faith in the rightiousness of their cause, and the wrongfulness of their captors?

 

If faith sometimes saves people in crisis then that is only relevant of lack of faith means a higher likelyhood of dying in a crisis.

Otherwise it simply means that sometimes, when people survive crisis, a strong willpower, spurred on by an arbitrary conviction, superstitious or otherwise, is part of the reason for them surviving.

 

So your question is only relevant if you are prepered to believe that being atheistic makes you inherently more vulnerable as a person.

Judging from your comments you don't seem to be the kind of person who would make such a judgement, but if you are then you need to back that up with hard evidence, because I hope you can see how potentially offensive the implications of your question could be.

 

You seem like a friendly and openminded person so I don't think you really want to make that judgement. I think what you are really interested in is the question you posed later about, if faith has at some point saved somebody, like say a holocaust surviver, then is that faith bad?

To which my answer is: of course not. Faith is never bad in and of itself. It is only when faith leads you to make bad decisions that it becomes bad.

 

Let me give you an example from my own life, and one I think most people, atheist and theist alike can relate to.

 

A few years ago now I met a girl that I fell in love with and she with me, and we were in a nice, and very young relationship.

At the hight of passion I had faith that she and I were gonna last for ever, that we were perfectly capable of making it work, so to speak.

That is, I had faith in this, because I had no real evidence to support that notion, since our relationship was only six months in, but I still believed it.

So there you have it: I had faith because I had no evidence at all about the potential futures of our relationship, and yet I still believed in one specific outcome.

Mind you there was no evidence to suggest it wasn't gonna last either, so my faith was completely harmless at this point, and certainly served to make me happy at the time.

So a completely harmless, and indeed positive faith, that made me happy.

 

But of course the blissful young love didn't last forever, and the evidence soon started mounting up that she and I were probably gonna have a hard time making it work in the long term. She was alot younger than I was, and we were at very different stages at our lives, ultimately wanting different things, and this started manifesting itself in all sorts of ways. Her behavior changed, my behavior changed, our talks about the future changed, my friends and family started expressing doubts about the stability of our relationship and so on.

 

That is, I still had faith that we could, and would make it last, but now there was mounting evidence that that was not the case.

 

So now my faith was no longer harmless, because I was pained by the mounting evidence against it. I didn't let go of it, mind! I simply became more and more frustrated with the difficulty of holding on to it in the face of more and more evidence against it. I have finally let go of course, and that is a burden lifted from my shoulders, but it took me alot longer than the time it took for sufficient evidence against me to accumilate.

 

So as you can hear, it is certainly possible to have a faith that is in no way impeeding to your life, but it can quickly turn painful when the evidence against it starts showing up.

 

Had I been right about us, I wouldn't have suffered the pain of having an unfounded belief challenged of course.

But then, if we really had stayed together, the initial faith I had, would still have disappeared over time in the face of the positive evidence that we really were making it work, as I had originally assumed on no evidence.

If she had moved in with me, if we'd gotten engaged, had children, all the while affirming our love for eachother regularly, all of this would be evidence in favor of the two of us having what it takes to make it work and then it wouldn't be faith I had, but rather a reasonable assumption based on the accumilated evidence.

 

So that analogy has the following relation to religious faith:

 

It is certainly possible to hold a belief with no evidence that is not harmful to you in anyway, and may even bring you comfort and joy, like my belief in my relationship while it was still young and passionate.

 

But if there is mounting evidence that your faith is wrong, then it brings you internal discomfort and grief as you cling to it, and you are better off letting it go, because it really is unfounded, and always has been: that's the definition of faith after all: belief without evidence. So while it may not cause you harm while it is unchallenged, as soon as you begin to discover counter-evidence it will plunge you deeper and deeper into confussion and frustration.

 

And that's just the internal grief, never mind all the bad things an unfounded belief might bring you to do to others.

 

It is my oppinion that any faith worth holding on to doesn't stay a faith forever. Like I said about if me and my ex had stayed together I would have slowly gone from unfounded belief to reasonable belief as the evidence of a stable relationship would manifest itself over time.

 

Faith in superstitious claims necessarily only have one way to go, and that's down. That's why I oppose them: because I think it is unhealthy to remain faithful in any one thing for a lifetime. You either go from unfounded faith to evidence-based expection over time, or you let go of the unfounded faith, for your own sake as much as anyone elses.

Well I was born an original sinner
I was spawned from original sin
And if I had a dollar bill for all the things I've done
There'd be a mountain of money piled up to my chin