The Voyeur mentallity and Rape
DISCLAIMER This is a controversial topic and I would hope only mature, reasoned minds address this. To all women on this forum, as well as any member of any gender that has been the subject of a rape, attempted rape or any form of sexual abuse: I am disgusted by the subject outlined herein but, given the story I am about to outline below, I hope you'll understand the question.
I fully understand that this topic may be deleted because of the controversial issue. I apologise in advance and hope I don't have a black mark against my name for what is an honest question. I hope those who know may know me, however slightly, will recognise that I am abhorred by this issue.
A friend of mine has recently watched the film irreversible. It's a film that has never appealed to me because I knew it featured a graphic rape scene and, to be honest, watching a woman being raped isn't something I want to see. The friend in question, who shall remain nameless, is a liberal, a human rights activist, an anti-war protester and a commited pacifist. I will quote him below (with some paraphrasing):
"You know the though of rape disgust me... but... I watched irreversible tonight and saw the rape scene involving Monica Belluci. I'm ashamed and disgusted to say that I was aroused. Not mentally bear in mind; I found the scene disgusting. But, I'm ashamed to admit, at the end of the scene I realised I was physically aroused"
You have to believe me when I say my friend looked shaken by this admission. This is a man I know wouldn't harm a fly and certainly wouldn't wish harm on any women.
So here is my question for discussion: Given the theories of Thronhill and Palmer as a potential springboard (I've done some googling), is there a reason that a male would find the horrific concept arousing, even on a purely physical level?
Forget Jesus, the stars died so that you could be here
- Lawrence Krauss
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Pah... i would have excepted Rugby, but not soccer -_-
Im sorry lil miss, but this is an age old tradition... and in truth, the only way men can ever settle arguements without killing each other...
What Would Kharn Do?
Actually, there is a fair amount of information on the matter. One only needs to google stuff to find it.
http://www.med.mcgill.ca/mjm/v06n01/v06p032/v06p032.pdf
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The competitive, porn lovin', beer guzzlin' male who can watch Predator or Die Hard a few extra hundred thousand times is a stereotype that will last until the Y chromosome is rewired. I am not in the least bit surprised at the OP comments about the friend getting aroused by a rape scene in a movie. Feminists have got to let this go. If civil liberties are not violated, watch whatever the hell you want.
A gay Jewish friend of mine had watched Triumph of the Will and he got aroused by some of the blond men in Nazi uniforms in the film. He also appreciated some of the male bonding among shirtless Nazi youth wrestling in parts of the movie. His grandfather perished in the death camps. By watching this film and getting aroused does not make him a Nazi sympathizer. His response was a natural biologic reaction and he would never change his hatred mindset of Hitler or the Nazi ideology. I would also add that many gays don the neo-nazi skinhead attire with the doc martin boots. They too have no love for racist skinheads.
We live in such a fucked up culture with people self-flagellating themselves for liking something taboo. What causes the real problems is any form of sexual repression with censorship that leads to antisocial behavior. When women in Pakistan or other repressive Islamic societies are gang raped it is not because the assailants were watching flicks of women being raped.
I suggest you read post #30.
What hambyjob made up is this: "very high testosterone levels are less prone to rational, logical thought than they are to brute force when faced with a crisis. "
When I was in sales, a good deal of testosterone, allowed me to accomplish sales goals with a bit of force, being an "aggressive" sales associate allowed me to achieve much higher commissions than the rest of my coworkers could barely begin to match. My "competitiveness" allowed me to focus acutely on my varying clientele, and made me more prone to notice when things worked, and when things didn't, it made me prone to think rationally and logically as to how I was going about making sales goal, and allowed me to be one of the highest earning sales associates in the region.
The reason for why we may desire to be more rational, and logical, in some case may in fact be a factor of raised testosterone, if we perceive "rationality, and logical" as means of achieving dominance.
Very high testosterone doesn't make us less prone to rational, and logical thought, it may just as well be the reason why we care to devote our time to think anyway. Thinking more rationally, and logically in war of ideas, or a debate, to win, may in fact be compelled by our "aggression".
The reason for why an individual with high testorene levels might resort to violence, over lets say talking it out, when face with a particular crisis, is that he deduces the crisis is better resolved by brute force than dialog. Aggression in the face of a crisis, has us favoring whatever means we feel would resolve it best, be it violence, dialog, picket lines, or buying bill board space.
Well, pineapple as my girlfriend will tell you, I like to pull my penis out in all sorts of places, and life is so much more amusing for her when I do.
If you're sensitive little eyes can't handle it, i suggest you quit hanging out in the mens locker room. I'm sure there's some sailor moon forum somewhere that would serve to be more cozy for you.
If you take an issue with how i speak to hamy or anyone else hear other than you, i really don't care to hear it, next time just keep it to yourself.
Must... resist... small penis joke...
What Would Kharn Do?
Laboratory certified blood tests from moments after you lose important sales or it didn't happen.
Seriously, you obviously did not read the link that I gave you. The teaser should have been enough to show that there is a documented link between testosterone and agression. However, had you bothered to read before posting, you would also know that there are androgen specific receptors in the brain and they are associated with neurotransmitters that are known to provide a calming effect.
Basically, a high level of testosterone is associated with a specific reduction in the effect of said neurotransmitters.
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I continue to approve of this thread.
Quiet you! your just here for the wang!
Some of us are here for deep rooted, intelligent discussion...
...not me, but thats not the point!
What Would Kharn Do?
Okay then I'll contribute.
Fighting and sex go together great in my experience. Testosterone? Probably.
Hatesex just ends up being hot. Here, there is even a wiki article on it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_sex
Theism is why we can't have nice things.
Now your speakin my language! oh yeah!
What Would Kharn Do?
Since the topic is now hatesex...
I'll make a guess as to why it is so hot. I think that complete abandonment of emotional attachment to the other individual allows someone to focus just on the physical act...making the sex that much more intense and fulfilling. And usually rough.
Not having to think about anything but what is going on right then, and taking out any frustrations through sex with the other person is great with someone you have a lot of tension with.
On that note, I do believe an argument could be made for hatesex between two people here who frequently argue with another.
Theism is why we can't have nice things.
I just love how these topics evolve... ^_^
... sounds remarkably similair with the way i go through out life o_O
What Would Kharn Do?
For some reason whenever I try to picture Paisley I think of an elderly senile grandpa.
I just..don't think I have it in me for that. :I
Theism is why we can't have nice things.
Way to kill a hardon... asshole -_-
What Would Kharn Do?
It's okay. Here, this should cheer you up.
Cale: "They look like children."
Richard: "I know, it's hard to kill just one."
Theism is why we can't have nice things.
I fully admit... that worked
/sigh... im so shallow...
There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. :3
It's funny because you clearly think so highly of yourself that you don't even realize just how much smarter she is than you. You didn't even realize that by making the response you did you would be proving her point. Seriously, you fail on so many levels right now, it's like watching footage of the Challenger explosion.
And since Doom refused to, maybe your "girlfriend" is so amused because you have a penis like a cocktail wiener.
"Do not, as some ungracious pastors do, show me the steep and thorny way to heaven. Whiles, like a puff'd and reckless libertine, himself the primrose path of dalliance treads. And recks not his own rede."
I had to read that 3 times before it clicked...
"OOOOOOOoooooooh! BUUUUUUURRRRRN!" ahaha
What Would Kharn Do?
Hahaha yeah rereading it I guess the syntax left something to be desired. Whatever, it got the job done.
"Do not, as some ungracious pastors do, show me the steep and thorny way to heaven. Whiles, like a puff'd and reckless libertine, himself the primrose path of dalliance treads. And recks not his own rede."
Homo-erotica ? ....heh, heh,what ever But seriously, as a man who is already a mixed martial arts fan I would still rather watch K1 over UFC because the former venue is strictly a strike based competition. I prefer to see a knockout over a tap out.
When did her intelligence or even mine became a question here? Who said I wasn't proving her point?
Pineapple took offense to the manner in which I talked to Hamby, this is not the first time she has. She's sensitive to tone, that's not a mark against her intelligence, or a claim of the superiority of mine. And pretty much my response to her, was that I talk in the manner to hamby in which i enjoy, and I don't really give a shit if she doesn't like it or not, particularly when it's not directed towards her.
uhm...what?
haha, a small penis joke, you kill me, fucking original dude.
If you only knew the irony.
Agreed... but then again, if the UFC just removed all the "pussy" rules, that limit a striker (which subsequently make the ground game, akin to a fucking turn based strategy). /sigh... i guess ill stick with underground venues for my does of gladiatorial violence...
What Would Kharn Do?
Actually, he was ALSO saying that i refused to amuse/fuck your girlfriend as well
Edit; just for clarification it means that
He called your girlfriend an ugly slut that even Doomy wont sleep with, yet still gets around enough to be amused at your stature among men
All in all, it was decently original
What Would Kharn Do?
You're right I didn't read it. I assumed you cut and pasted the relevant information, and provided the link only to cite your source, and not as a request for me to read it as well. But I did just finish reading it. And apparently you haven't seemed to have read it yourself. Since the article seems to support my point:
"research has indicated that testosterone may be correlated with aggressive motives and competitiveness rather than violence [...] Overall the results indicate that while subjects with high levels of testosterone exhibit more aggression, the aggressive encounters are stopped before they escalate into dangerous forms of aggression through modulation of specific neurotransmitter pathways. However, it must be remembered that hormones themselves do not directly cause behaviors, but induce chemical changes in certain neurons"
Let's give you an analogy here, it's rough, but I'm guessing it should do: aggression is to violence, as passion is to killing your ex-girlfriend's lover. Violence is often an expression of aggression (but not always; we can make a decision to kill people for purely pragmatic reasons, as governments often do).
Hamby's issue is trying to limit "aggression"/"competitiveness"/ "a pursuit of dominance" to violent expression, and exclude rational expressions, when in fact as I said early, that even a desire to act out rationally, can be brought on by our aggression. Protesting injustice is often an act that's an expression of our "aggression", so can a desire to win a chess game, or to have a better lawn, or to be the most educated, etc, all of which can be brought on by a feeling of competitiveness. Just like passion might lead us to paint, to be better lovers, or to commit a crime of passion.
To try and limit passion to the latter, would be false. Thats hamby's problem.
haha, LMAO, ROFL, a joke about having an ugly girlfriend too? made on the Internet of all places, by some fat white atheist, fucking hilarious. Why wait for Bruno, you guys are a riot.
I love you guys, and if I was a chick i'd soo do you.
Soooo...your intention was to prove her point? You're right, your intelligence is a non-issue here.
Almost as original as your "No way my dick is so big olololololol!!11" comeback haha
"Do not, as some ungracious pastors do, show me the steep and thorny way to heaven. Whiles, like a puff'd and reckless libertine, himself the primrose path of dalliance treads. And recks not his own rede."
I agree with pineapple. I think it's because men like being in a dominating role and that also fits with why women often like being dominated (not always, but it's a common trait). And the fact that it's fantasy probably has a lot to do with the arousal.
AND, UNFORTUNATELY, I liked D&D and hate UFC. Although, I'm manly when it counts ;D
I really don't get why this is going over your head.
the equivalent of my exchange with pineapple would be this:
Me:" please don't use lolcats anymore."
You: "I really don't care if you have a problem with my lolcats or not, I'm gonna use them when ever I feel like it."
Would you think, that if this sort of exchange happened between us, it would mean that I proved my point?
Christ on a cracker. Forget it, you obviously have a brain to match your penis.
uhm...yea...cervello, forgive me for not be offended, by you of all people, accusing me of having a small brain.
Men that enjoy rape are putting aside empathy, sympathy, and putting a sexual drive above a fellow human being's emotional stability.
People can learn to repress emotion in order to do very cruel things.
There can be many reasons for a man enjoying rape, such as extremely repressed sex drive, an extreme fetish with control and domination, an enjoyment of being malicious, etc.
Yes, of course there are psychological reasons, just as there are psychological reasons that a serial killer enjoys killing sprees.
*Our world is far more complex than the rigid structure we want to assign to it, and we will probably never fully understand it.*
"Those believers who are sophisticated enough to understand the paradox have found exciting ways to bend logic into pretzel shapes in order to defend the indefensible." - Hamby
I wasn't asking you to demonstrate that testosterone is a causal agent for aggression; I was asking you to demonstrate that watching violent TV or playing violent video games produces sufficient testosterone to cause a person to be more prone to violence (actually, really, I want you to provide me with point blank evidence - a double blind trial would be sufficient - that demonstrates that individuals become more prone to violence after watching violent television or playing violent video games). It should be a trivial excercize for you to do that if your claim ('watching violence makes people violent') had any merit at all.
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
So you're admitting you have a small penis. Right, it's settled then.
And two grammar fails for the price of one, cool beans.
"Do not, as some ungracious pastors do, show me the steep and thorny way to heaven. Whiles, like a puff'd and reckless libertine, himself the primrose path of dalliance treads. And recks not his own rede."
cervello if you really wanna see my penis, all you have to do is ask buddy, for a small donation i'll even let you suck it.
so, you don't gotta keep saying you think i have a small penis, just so we can play show and tell. wink. wink. nudge. nudge.
Post it if ya got it
What Would Kharn Do?
What about a woman enjoying watching rape?
Theism is why we can't have nice things.
BTW Cpt, I hope you are enjoying Valkyrie Chronicles. I know I am.
Aaaah yes... i remember when my father taught me that lesson... it was a long time ago, and GTA didn't exist back then... but the premise is still the same
What Would Kharn Do?
How old are you? o.O GTA has been out like, forever.
Edit: where forever = since 1997
Theism is why we can't have nice things.
... then i am obviously older then forever... >.>
What Would Kharn Do?
The plot thickens... . . . .
"Do not, as some ungracious pastors do, show me the steep and thorny way to heaven. Whiles, like a puff'd and reckless libertine, himself the primrose path of dalliance treads. And recks not his own rede."