Personal Identity and Ethinic Origins / Traditions
Posted on: May 11, 2009 - 10:33pm
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Personal Identity and Ethinic Origins / Traditions
I could ask if Atheists tend to refute their individual "Personal Identity" on the basis of historical Ethinic Origins / Traditions.
INSTEAD, I'll simply ask to what extent you attribute your "Personal Identity" in terms of your own historical Ethinic Origins / Traditions VS. your own personal life's experiences, i.e. those personal experiences that aren't inclusive of what you learned concerning your own historical Ethinic Origins / Traditions.
(A few sentences could adequately respond if that's all you wanna write. Pls avoid blogging. It bores me.)
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I am an atheist. Ethnic origins and traditions are only a function of my personal identity with regards to my start point. In retrospective study I provide no additional weight or interest to fields based on my own genetic history.
I do not care or am effected/affected more about WW2 just because I have German, British, and American blood and long lines of veterans in my family. There is as much for me to learn from this study as for one descended from Eskimos in northern Canada (struggling to find a group less touched by WWII).
The lessons from the Jewish Holocaust effect many with no Jewish blood more than it does some Jews themselves.
I am an atheist and a global citizen. My blood traces back to the first fleets of convicts and British Royal Marines that arrived in Australia in 1788. Do I feel responsible for the way aboriginals were treated? No. Do I think it was terrible? Yes, just like the treatment of North American Indians, whose plight effects me just as much. Do I feel a "special" link to colonial Australia? No. My link is with the planet on the whole.
A good illustrator here is feelings towards war veterans and national historical achievements. I am not "proud" of the achievements of my past family, how could I be? I had nothing to do with it. I live now. I can have positive or negative opinions regarding their actions. Just because they are my blood line does not mean they get an automatic feeling from me. Lessons of Spain in South America with which I have no clear genetic link, are just as important and fascinating to me as the ANZAC veterans of WWI, with whom I have links. These comments can get me into trouble with patriots that claim the accolades of "their" historical past, even though they had nothing to do with it. These nationalistic, racist, patriots normally enjoy labelling global citizens as slanderous traitors.
Obviously atheists have different opinions (as we are cool), but this atheist uses the global relevance approach.
Who would want to finish what they have said with the same thing everytime?
Following up on ...
"These nationalistic, racist, patriots normally enjoy labelling global citizens as slanderous traitors."
I take it that as you recognize "nationalistic, racist, patriots", that in some fashion you identify with a nation, a "race", and what a "patriot" is.
Otherwise, you should not be given to recognize such "nationalistic, racist, patriots" as personally offensive.
As such, although you consider yourself a citizen of the world, it does appear that you personally identify with a particular nation, a "race", and notion what a "patriot" is.
So, it would be reasonable to ask if you do not associat, i.e. personally identify with
the above-mentioned origins and traditions?
Granted, your personal notion of your own origins and traditions from whence you came are assumably
quite different than many others of the same, but they are not absent, as would be those same "issues" of one holding no association with anything.
Shall I take it, you understand these things, and mention them as philosophical ly abhorent, but they are impersonal wheras you're concerned, and none although mentioned are that which you personally identify with?
If so, why take offense to any of those 3, as they personally apply to you?
I take your words to be a global citizen without personal historical ethic and traditions as a personal goal you a pire to, but have not realized.
Franlky, you wouldn't be "human", should you ever be capable of such a lofty objective.
Comments?
"I take it that as you recognize "nationalistic, racist, patriots", that in some fashion you identify with a nation, a "race", and what a "patriot" is."
You may have me, but only to a subtle degree on terminology. I personaly don't exclusively identify with a nation, race, etc. I know this sounds hard to believe and I do state that I am Australian when asked, in the interest of simplicity of understanding when meeting people. If I judge the audience I will say "I am not Australian, I am a global citizen," and I do see them as exclusive. To identify a nation is different to identifying yourself as being inseperably bound to it. Really need to define 'identify' to progress this, as on occasion I can identify with a block of wood.
"Otherwise, you should not be given to recognize such "nationalistic, racist, patriots" as personally offensive."
It is my personal opinion that nationalism, and racism are regressive for humanity at this time. I do not recognize them as personally offensive due to being of an opposing nation or race, rather because I think they are bad for the world.
"As such, although you consider yourself a citizen of the world, it does appear that you personally identify with a particular nation, a "race", and notion what a "patriot" is."
I don't see how you think that I personally identify with a nation or race, I said the opposite. I am able to identify a variety of nations, cultures and histories, none of which I personally identify myself with exclusively or in general. You may have me on specifics, like I can identify with Arab hospitality, or the Russian drinking culture. Are you missing the difference or am I missing your point here? Yes my exposure to Australian culture has been greater than most others, but I am well travelled and experienced and am more than aware of the diversity on the planet. The fact that I speak English as a function of nationality is true but my morals and ethics do not conform to an Australian English speaking stereo type or generalization, indeed if you were to ask my opinion on any number of issues you would see that I am contrary to my blood AND raising on many issues. If you make it simple enough to ask me, is any moral or ethical part of you Australian, I would say no, they are derived from other sources. Dangerous ground in mixed company. lol.
"So, it would be reasonable to ask if you do not associat, i.e. personally identify with
the above-mentioned origins and traditions?"
Really need to define 'personally identify' before I can answer. I can relate (identify) to the difficulties, ethics, and morals at play in the lives of the inhabitants of Africa (nothing directly to do with me on paper so to speak), as I can identify with Australian cultural history. I think I am defining 'identify' differently in each sentence. lol. Perhaps a chat online is better to convey meaning.
"Granted, your personal notion of your own origins and traditions from whence you came are assumably quite different than many others of the same, but they are not absent, as would be those same "issues" of one holding no association with anything."
Interesting, point but I identify with the world as a whole, I do not have 'no association with anything'. Not absent, but derived from a global world view, not an Australian one. Am I someone with a global focus because I was raised in the open minded progressive Australia? This one is open but if I needed to answer I would say no.
"Shall I take it, you understand these things, and mention them as philosophical ly abhorent, but they are impersonal wheras you're concerned, and none although mentioned are that which you personally identify with?"
Your syntax confuses me sorry.
"If so, why take offense to any of those 3, as they personally apply to you?
I take your words to be a global citizen without personal historical ethic and traditions as a personal goal you a pire to, but have not realized.
Franlky, you wouldn't be "human", should you ever be capable of such a lofty objective."
I take offense to nationism, racism, and patriotism because I believe they attempt to encroach upon freedom, and that they are negative, small minded, and lack the scope for a progressive and positive future for humanity. In short they kill, murder, and rape under these banners and encite righteous violence against other nations and races. No brainer. There are very few ways a nation can better itself not at the expense of others. It is as simple in my mind as sexism being wrong.
Have I realized it? To a greater degree I believe I have. Obvious contradictions such as language exist but in my own true definition of myself, my values, morals, and ethics, I apply myself as a global citizen who derives identiy from such and believe it the best approach for the future.
What is your story and why do you ask, if I may ask?
Who would want to finish what they have said with the same thing everytime?
I agree with these statements. I take offence to nationalism and racism, which are prevalent here in the states. It is not beneficial to anyone, and I would characterize them as mental disorders. If I hear someone speaking out for either, I generally avoid them because I consider them mentally unstable.
Theism is why we can't have nice things.
I'll third that.
After eating an entire bull, a mountain lion felt so good he started roaring. He kept it up until a hunter came along and shot him.
The moral: When you're full of bull, keep your mouth shut.
MySpace
Simply put, I don't care about origins of any kind. I am what I am regardless. I don't get caught up in stereotypes.
After eating an entire bull, a mountain lion felt so good he started roaring. He kept it up until a hunter came along and shot him.
The moral: When you're full of bull, keep your mouth shut.
MySpace
There is an ancient chinese saying
Man who drives large truck at 70 mph and turns around to see where he came from will crash into tree
Well that saying may not be chinese or ancient and I might have made it up but its still cool
Ok. Let's assume that you've not personally experienced raciscm. It's a fair bet, cosidering what you've said.
Furthermore, let's assume that you've not personally experienced racism, because you're in some ethnic majority.
Let's assume you're "White".
Let's assume your ancestors were not Jews or Arabs (two of the groups you mentioned previously). Let's say that even if you were of these ethnic groups, no one called you a nigger.
But, that's for starters, let's say that as a privileged white you've never
considered how it would personally effect you if you were tolf to sit in the back of the bus, go into a coloreds only line for a ticket, food, a toilet, a segregated school.
Let's just assume that because as a priveleged white boy, of no particular notice
to anyone, and in a time and place where if you were a "nigger", you can do as you please.
I'm going to assume you've no
personal feelings about yor skin color. That is if you are of a very dark commplexion, you don't take it personally when you're called a "nigger", and as a privileged white boy, you have no clue as to was I mean when I use words like "assocate with" or "personally identify with" just one of the things you mentioned.
I'm gonna assume you understand and identify with people of a different ethnic origin, that you know what it's like not to be a white boy,,...
Instead, you feel as if you were a "Black", or a Jew, or an Arab, juzt as much as you feel like a white boy.
Ok. You convinced me. You're
a really empathetic person, and identify with everybody EXCEPT yourself, because ... as you say... (paraphrasing... your a citizen of the world).
And as a citizen of the world
you've no personal feelings about the 3 above-mentioned things, you brought up in your own post.
Sorry, I don;t understand what I just said either! lol
I don't quite understand..but are you saying people are supposed to segregate themselves?
I identify with people that like the same things that I do.
Thats it though, a human is a human. Where they were born or what colour or anything else doesn't make any difference to me.
Theism is why we can't have nice things.
OK teat2, I think we are kind of understanding each other and you are right in some of your assumptions. I am part of the white majority, but my eyes are not closed and I do not lack empathy. Got to stick up for myself there. I would say that most people, regardless of majority or minority have experienced racism. Many scared little white kids have been bullied on school basketball courts. I have been refused service in an Asian bar. These aren't special or unique things, I am pretty sure stuff like this happens to us all from time to time. If you changed your assumption to, I have not experienced very much racism directed specifically at me, relative to what some people go through, then you would be correct.
I have, however, witnessed first hand, mass global racism in effect in war zones, socio-political racism within my country that has secreted aboriginal communities in third world conditions, and multiple cases in incidents and events that punctuate individual racism. I am not special here, most have seen these things. Though I would like to say that my experience is as a very close witness.
Indeed my empathy is such (I don't think I am that great or unusual BTW) that I can fully understand for example, the rage that must exist in the minds of minorities and victimized groups across the world. Indeed I can identify with it.
Yes I do identify in some aspects with all peoples, including Jews, Arabs, Blacks, Asians, and Whites but not people from Tasmania. I hate Tasmanians. (Jokes)
I do not fail to identify myself, I identify myself as a global citizen, which is not an absence of identity, in fact I would put forward that it is one of the boldest, strongest, and best defined, identities possible.
I think a heightened sense of self awareness or identity leads to a global view.
Why can't we all just, get along!?
I am the white majority but that is not how I, identify, myself. It really isn't that big a jump.
Hope that clarifies a bit. What about yourself? Do you recommend sticking with your perceived historical, genetic, and cultural roots for an identity and do you think there is any thing wrong or dangerous about holding a world citizen view?
and does ClockCat's yellow smiley picture make you happy like it does me?
Who would want to finish what they have said with the same thing everytime?
Diagoras23, my point was made. I shall not dwell upon it.
If it gave you food for future consideration, then that's more than I would alwys expect of anyone.
Myself ...
I'm a 350lbs transgendered Eskimo. Currently, I assume a female appearance, but I miss my dick, and am thinking I might prefer to become a male Grouper fish for obvious
reasons. I became a religions Atheist after I lost Spinoza's unabridged Dictionary of Marblar. As a former Cuttlefish I can assume any skin color and am immune to jokes about my skin color. I decided to end my education in America in the 3rd grade, as it was as long and as hard on me as my former dick, and decided to devote the remainder of my life's work in the business of delivering
methane directly from my asshole to other Eskimos in Ohio.
And you?
I didn't expect that. Not really sure what point you made, and sorry you didn't really inspire me to think of anything new, although it was nice to chat.
Goodluck with your other issues.
PS I wish I had Cuttlefish skin.
Who would want to finish what they have said with the same thing everytime?
I just answered a question, .. didn't make any point, I think I didn't.
Then again, maybe I did.
Nah. No point.
Yeah. It was entirely pointless. I'm sure of it.
No individual should be discriminated on the basis of race, gender, age, class, etc.. And I want to emphasize INDIVIDUAL. When ethnicity trumps individuality, that's when it's a problem.
I'm ethnically Indian and I have repeatedly been told that I am not "Indian" enough. I'm also from Canada and no one has ever told me that I'm not "Canadian" enough. And it's far more annoying with the perversions of identity politics in an attempt to achieve "equality".
Society (particularly one that is liberal and democratic) is a collection of individuals each with his/her own unique goals and desires. And if that society places reason and rationalism at the pinnacle, does ethnicity/identity really have any meaning or practical utility?
I envision a secular rational democratic freethinking society wherein everyone holds science in the highest regard. Everyone acknowledges that we are all advanced carbon based neural networks encased in a bipedal structure with a physiologic apparatus trying to achieve homeostasis. We will all accept that this brain and body are the result of natural selection. And lastly, we will all appreciate that this organism is flawed at all levels due our genetics. And I forsee the possibility of eliminating our flaws through some form of technology (eg. genetic engineering, nanotechnology, artificial intelligence, etc..) such that we will all shed idiotic concepts that define identity, the most significant one being religion.
Yes, its fun to think about sci fi transhumanist atheist utopias. But if we don't think along these lines of thought, the ones so engrossed about ethnicity will lead humanity to extinction. But then again, maybe that's what our selfish genes will amount to in the end.
Good question! I'm not sure I have a straightforward answer, but I'll try to keep from rambling.
I identify myself as an American citizen, because the U.S. is where I happened to be born, and where I currently reside. However, I'm not really patriotic or particularly attached to this country. I would have no qualms about leaving this country; my biggest concern would be the distance from my family, with whom I am close.
My family makes up a big part of who I am. Ethnically, I am half German and half Greek, and both sides of my family are recent US immigrants, in relation to the scope of US history. Both sets of my grandparents came to the US within the last 50 years. All of them brought traditions from their home countries, which are still alive and well in my family today. I'm fluent in German (working on learning Greek), enjoy both German and Greek foods regularly, and am well-versed in my family's stories and history.
I think it's important to know where you come from. But I think it's just as important to know where you're going.
I don't limit myself to only German and Greek heritage. One benefit to being an American citizen is the exposure to many diverse people and ways of life, and so I am always interested in learning about other cultures. I am well-traveled, and there are parts of other cultures that I "identify" with and try to emulate.
And then there are some ways that I identify myself that are completely independent of my heritage or my country of residence - my atheism, my choice of career, my hobbies. There is nothing inherently "German" or "Greek" or "American" about a love of exercise, an interest in science, or rejection of religion. While certain members of my familly may have influenced me in these areas, and while the place that I live may have enabled me to pursue some of my passions, none of these facets of my personality can be attributed to a particular nationality or ethnicity.
So in some respects, I agree with Diagoras - we should all strive to be "global citizens" by being curious about and tolerant of other cultures, and we should pursue what is best for humankind globally. However, I also think that heritage is important to a degree - but it shouldn't be the only thing that defines you as an individual, and it shouldn't take precedence over your own personal preferences in the way you live your life.
I think you got it. Congrats!