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What is the Difference between Zionism and Racism
Posted on: April 26, 2009 - 10:30pm
 Offline
What is the Difference between Zionism and Racism
A BBC reporter grills a UK Ambassador informationclearinghouse.info/article22495.htm
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In the real world...
Nothing I can come up with.
Hypothetically, AND GIVEN THE INTERPRETATION, in my own opinon there's nothing inherent in Zionism to exclude other people from living in the same land.
But this is the real world. Interpretations of it do differ, and Israel already has a racist marriage law on the books, not to mention having committed a holocaust, in the words of Israel's own Chief Justice, regarding recent the occupation of the Gaza and beyond.
BTW. Don't make any assumptions about me. You've no clue as to my origins and the SLIGHTEST idea of my personal beliefs, other than a few breif snippets, which I intentionally keep as short as possible... and wished you bloggers would all die!
Zionism is a type of racism, isn't it? Other than that, no, there probably aren't too many differences between the two.
Stosis, to be honest with you I need a Dictionary, but I'm to damn lazy to care.
My understanding of the def. is that Israel is advocated as a land for Jews.
There seem to be several interpretations, and I'm not really familiar, nor do I care about this crap.
One interpretation I'm aware of is the racist view and interpretation which I understand to be advocated by
some anti-Zionist and some Zionists alike, as a God given land ONLY for Jews.
Another interpretation I'm aware of is the non-racist view and interpretation which I understand to be advocated by
some Zionists, as a God given or not God given land for Jews, but not to the exclusion of other religiouns.
At present, I don't think that even the hard-line right- wingers are advocating kicking out the Christians and Muslims that live in the '67 area, and in that respect, I think it supports that those whom are called Zionists, and whom advocate Zionism are not advocating complete ethnic cleansing.
However, it's obvious to me, that if the hard-liners had their personal preference, no one but Jews would live in Israel...still a personall preference is not what was asked about.
Again, this is the real world, and Israel has enacted a racist marriage law, and adopted policies resulting in a holocaust of the Muslims in the occupied territories, not to mention that it is not recognizing Hamas, which was legitimately elected by the Palestinians to represent them, NOT Fatah, and Obama and clan, realize it, and are not doing a thing about it. (Soz. that's off-topic.) I just feel very sorry for what Israel has been doing for decades to innocents, and their shooting of women and children, use of white phosphorous... the list goes on and on and on. ----
They are actually destroying themselves and they don't know it. In the end, I'm convinced their Nazi tactics will catch-up with them, and burn them in the ass. And, they will deserve it, too. Soz. Off-topic again. I just feel really bad for the inequity, the imbalance, the non-recognition, the continued U.S. support of outragous shit, rock-throwing kids killed by bullets, old women and children shot for no damn reason.
BTW. Google "White Phosphorous" (may be misspelled), the pics that you can find are ABSOLUTELY UNBELIEVABLE, as to what that stuff does to a person. I'm confident that you will find pics showing stuff that is worse than anything you can imagine. Unbelievable shit. Soz. for going of topic 3 times.
Zionism [as I understand it] is the establishment of a Jewish state for ethnic Jews.
While this in of itself is NOT racist, it can develop into racism [suppressive policies against Lebanese and Palastenian Arabs for example]
Just because a group was elected, doesn't mean that they're fit to lead. Speaking of Nazis, Hitler was elected.
But then again, I think the election was between them and PFLP, which would be a lose-lose situation for Israel, seeing as it would either be attacked by Islamist fundamentalists or Nationalist Communists.
I'm glad you're dedicated to a democratically elected government. Let's put a dictator there instead... How about... Dick Cheney?
Soz. You don't like it. They were elected democratically, and it's NOT for YOU to judge, that they should NOT.
That is the definition of a facist mentality, and extension of Colonization, Imperialism, and generally stick our noses where they don't belong.
Friggin deal with it!
Hitler's Brown shirts took power through intemitdation, killing, and violence. Hitler was loved by the poeple. TRUE!
Hilter wanted to take over the World TRUE!. Hitler DESERVED to be killed. TRUE! The Treaty of Versailles created the Conditions that led to Hitler's popularity. (Unmentioned, but TRUE!)
Israel is RADICALIZING the Palestinians. Fucking deal with it! The are CREATING terrorists. THEY ARE and HAVE ADMITTEDLY violeted the Geneva Convention, killed over a thousand innocents, only a few months ago, committed a holocaust in the Gaza (AS STATED BY ISRAEL'S OWN HIGHEST Judge) (Google it. You'l find it.)
Deal with it.
It's not for you to say HOW should lead the Palestinians.
Are you Queen George!
Geez! Israel has radicalized thousands of dumb fucks. They gotta fact the music, and the U.S. should have twisted their arm decades ago, as we should still be doing but we're not, Instead, we got dicks saying who should be the democratically elected Party, JUST BECAUSE WE DON'T LIKE IT!
Fuck that. And fuck GWB assholes.
We are HATED around the World for GOOD REASON, and YOU just gave it!!!
Actually, the good Captain's a Canadian. And you still need to work on your grammar, spelling and punctuation. By the tone of your invective, I gather you're still in high school, so I recommend that you spend a little more time on that before applying to college. Holding yourself to a higher standard in internet communications is good practice.
"The whole conception of God is a conception derived from ancient Oriental despotisms. It is a conception quite unworthy of free men."
--Bertrand Russell
Technically, 'Jews' are not a 'race', in so far as that means anything. They are a group defined by a combination of ethnicity, religion, culture, and nationality, the mix varying somewhat over time and the background of the observer.
Genetically they are apparently closely related to Arab Israelis and Palestinians, forming a core population who have lived in that area since prehistoric times.
At least according to good ol' Wikipedia - it does seem consistent with other stuff I have read on this.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
No kindergartan, and I always hated spelling.
What's college?
Canada.
Great defense. Yeah, that's "nearly" all around the Planet
and god knows how much Americans love Canada.
Ever have a talk with Americans about the Canadian medical system?
STILL, American morons haven't yet realized that they've got it right, and we are totally fucked.
In any case, fuckin' Canada. Great example. Shoulda said Washington, D.C.. It would have been even more credible.
Oye! Another Bushman.
If treat2 read my previous posts on this issue, s/he would know that I am a rather outspoken critic of Israeli foreign policy.
That however, does not mean that I support Hamas or the PFLP.
There is still a significant difference of what one would classify as a Jew and one an Arab.
I'm hardly a bushie, as long-timers around here will tell you. And yes, you do sound like an emotional kindergartner who doesn't take the time to read what people write. I don't understand your response to me, but I'm not that worried about it; odds are you won't be around too long. I've seen lots of angry 16 year olds come and go on this site, frustrated by educated people and their confounded ability to argue.
"The whole conception of God is a conception derived from ancient Oriental despotisms. It is a conception quite unworthy of free men."
--Bertrand Russell
Well done. Nice flame!
You should embed the video so that people don't have to click on off-site links.
I think the idea of establishing states with ethnic-based citizenship criteria is pretty clearly racist. I'm sure Israelis would not like to be portrayed in that light but they have jewish only roads and sometimes foreign contractors are asked to sign agreements not to date jewish women so if it looks like a duck and it quacks then it might be duck right?
There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft
You should embed the video,etc. O' I would if I knew how ! I'm computer illiterate ,I gotta learn how to cut and paste to,I really use this tool to look-up a few things,and download some lectures,I can't even type really and I like books a whole lot better,they're simple, as someone once said "Keep it Simple".
Signature ? How ?
Actually there are Arabs in Israel. I don't really know how much discrimination/racism they endure, but they're there none the less.
So I don't think all Zionists want Israel exclusive to Jews.
But yeah, denying somebody citizenship or use of roads based on their ethnicity is, by definition, racist.
I wasn't trying to say anything about individuals necessarily. Probably lots of Israelis are not racist. But their political ideology is predicated on religious and ethnic segregation.
There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft
Semitic?
Don't assume that I support Hamas either. However, they were democratically elected by the Palestinians, and it's not for either Americans or Israelis to decide what group the Palestinians SHOULD HAVE elected!
That is my point.
If we're going to attempt to have peace and a (fucked up) 2 State solution, then overthrowing the democratically elected government can not be our or Israel's objective.
Unfortunately, that was the STATED objective of the invasion of Gaza. Moreover, Israel committed egregious war crimes during that invasion, and many others, in recent years. As a State, they need to be held accountable, and our assholes in Washington, as well.
Your posts demonstrate that you regard Hamas as terrorists, and Israel as not. Furthermore, your posts indicate that you believe that it is our and Israel's duty to overthrow a democratically elected government.
Colonialism, Imperialism, and Assholism were the essential GWB policies, and now they've been carried forward by Obama.
We're about to step into shit so deep I assure you that 9/11 would be a mere drop in the bucket compared to how badly we're going to get the shit kicked out of us in Afghanistan, ... just as an example of our idiotic foreign policy.
Thank you.
You can get an idea of just a small amount of the actual discrimination that Israeli Arabs endure, simply by googling up information on how much money is allocated by Israel to schools attended by Jews, as opposed to the schools in Israel that are attended by Israeli Arabs.
There's plenty more, but I'm not going to write a book on something that's available to everyone and in the public domain already.
Out of interest, given the posts you put up in this thread, I'd be interested in seeing a few of the posts you're referring to. I'm open-minded, and don't bother walking around with a chip on my shoulder. Besides which, as I would hope you know, ... if you (i.e. not you personally) take shit personally on the Net, it's best not to be on the Net.
Just for kicks, let's extend that further.
Jews and Arabs are both Semitic.
Race is not a term that technically applies to any sub-group of humans. Technically, we are all of the human race, and there is no sub-race to speak of.
It's clear that you understand that.
Now, for the fun part...
If we are to only use "race" in a manner that is technically correct, then we would have to say the Jewish law which boots ONLY Israeli Arabs out of Israel for marrying a non-Israeli-Arab is anti-Semitic.
Therefore, we would technically have to say that that "racist" law is actually anti-Semitic.
Thus, it would be technically correct to say that Israel is anti-Semitic.
How's that for laughs?
English, Science, and a number of other things do not provide for the proper classification of all things that indeed require classification, so that we can properly designate that which we are talking about. As a result,
we have to settle for the non-technical term "racist", even though we mean anti-Semitic.
(I just know someone's going to post something like: "Israel isn't anti-Semitic.")
Soz... Something is "screwy"... my previous post (at this time) was heavily abridged, and can't be editted, so I'm going to try reposting what I just posted, and hope that the full post makes it through this time... (no doubt in a minute the previous post will migically contain the remainder of what was truncated, and this post will be a double post, as usually happens.) HERE GOES...
Just for kicks, let's extend that further.
Jews and Arabs are both Semitic.
Race is not a term that technically applies to any sub-group of humans. Technically, we are all of the human race, and there is no sub-race to speak of.
It's clear that you understand that.
Now, for the fun part...
If we are to only use "race" in a manner that is technically correct, then we would have to say the Jewish law which boots ONLY Israeli Arabs out of Israel for marrying a non-Israeli-Arab is anti-Semitic.
Therefore, we would technically have to say that that "racist" law is actually anti-Semitic.
Thus, it would be technically correct to say that Israel is anti-Semitic.
How's that for laughs?
English, Science, and a number of other things do not provide for the proper classification of all things that indeed require classification, so that we can properly designate that which we are talking about. As a result,
we have to settle for the non-technical term "racist", even though we mean anti-Semitic.
(I just know someone's going to post something like: "Israel isn't anti-Semitic.")
I think that both governments need a renovation.
Yes, Israel should be held accountable.
But everytime you pull a complaint against Israel, you are immediatly labeled as an "anti-semitic tyrant".
Considering that Israel is a nuclear power and has one of the most powerful nations on Earth, I really think that their policies should be open to critizism, and they should not get a free pass on anything.
Can't find anything significant that I would differ with you on the above.
Just to carry on with a related conversation on the topic, ... I'm posting a new topic, which is somewhat related. -- BTW. Thanks for your response.
That would be what I would assume that 'core population' would have been, although I was a little surprised that that article did not seem to use the term. It may be that 'semitic' refers to a broader collection of tribes than was being considered in the article.
It makes the term 'anti-semitism' to refer to prejudice or hatred directed at the Jews not accurate, but it appears usage has overtaken etymology once again.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
Yep.
On a prior thread (which for the moment I cannot recall) of a similar topic, I made comments about why secular atheist Jews such as Steven Weinberg or Steven Pinker are so beholden to a country whose origin is based on religious/ethnic edicts. And I was branded as being anti-semitic for making such a comment.
Israelis, Palestinians, Indians, Kashmiris, Tamils, Sinhalese, Kurds, Iraqis, Irish, English, French Canadians, English Canadians, Hutus, Tutsis, etc....are indeed woven from the similar cloth. They all are on opposite sides of ethnic geopolitical conflicts. And some of them are/were extremely violent. And throw religion into the mix (Islam in the case of the Palestinians, evangelical Christians for Israel) matters get worse.
It is time for all atheists and rationalists to recognize the truth of it all. Humans are a flawed species hardwired towards in group/out group mentality. Attempts at solutions to the Israeli/Palestinian issue means recognizing this truth but instead, folks like Steven Weinberg pick sides. But I'm still a huge fan of Weinberg nonetheless.
I prefer not to pick sides. I'd rather see mutual understanding, kindness, compassion, cooperation as well as see the Muslim and Jew below fuck each other:
Those tits are too big. There's a limit... and it's been exceeded.
Now if she were titty fucking a well hung Palestinian dude, then technically this is an occupation of his dick. Let's extend the metaphor such that her huge tits symbolize Israel and his cock is the Gaza strip. When he cums and gives her a pearl necklace then would that be the Hamas rockets landing on Israel? So I guess you're right. Israel's tits are way too big and more importantly, you don't want to titty fuck with Hamas.
Wow. I didn't know we were getting so "deep" with this conversation.
I still say her boobs are too big.
After eating an entire bull, a mountain lion felt so good he started roaring. He kept it up until a hunter came along and shot him.
The moral: When you're full of bull, keep your mouth shut.
MySpace
Alrighty, back on topic here, I think ragdish is correct with the in group/out group mentality between Arabs and Jews, especially when one side is percieved as trying to take the land of the other.