So, it's Easter again tomorrow...

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So, it's Easter again tomorrow...

...And I'm just curious:

 

Does it ever at all bother any of the Christian visitors here that they're religion just bastardizes Pagan holidays and pretends that they represent significant historical events for the church while not actually having any roots in said church whatsoever? I mean, Easter, Christmas... I'm always baffled when I hear religious lobbying groups lamenting about the 'secularization' of 'their' holidays... when, in actuality, they were secular to begin with.

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"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


latincanuck
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Cpt_pineapple wrote:The Nazi

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

The Nazi party was steadly gaining support until their take-over in 1933. The support for them stemmed from, like I mentioned before, the shitter economy and Hitler promising a way out and to restore Germany to it's previous glory [it's military and economy was limited by the Treaty of Versaile [sp?] after WWI]

 

In 1933, came the Reischtag fire, in which I mentioned, Hitler blamed on the Communist plot to destroy Germany. This led to Hinderberg [fuck I can't spell German names ] passing the Reischtag fire degree.

 

The Nazis however, did NOT have the majority in parliment, which was remedied by the 1933 elections [soon after the fire] and surprise surprise, the Nazis offered the citizens a way to oppress the destructive Communists and return Germany to a glourious state, lending them the victory they desired with free reign compliments to the fire degree.

 

 

Lets go a wee bit farther back and go to 1918, the signing of the treaty of versailles, to which many in Germany, including the National Socialist party (the name of the nazi party before 1919) blamed on Jews and Communists.

Lets forward to 1933, specifically January 30th the Nazis staged a large boycott of all jewish business and professions, which they still blamed for economic state, as well as communism, a week after the boycott the Nazis restricted civil workers to Aryans.

Now the Reischtag fire was basically gave Hitler Dictorial powers, but he was already elected, and had not really campaigned strictly against communism but against various other social and economic troubles, as well in 1935 Hitler passed the Nuremberg Laws, which stripped anyone not considered of german blood their citizenship as well prohibited marriages and extramarriatal intercouse with Jews and Germans. As well Capt. Hitler had already shown his antisemitism for the last 15 years, and the National Socialist party which became the Nazi party was already Anti-semetic, as well as against communism, then again they were against capitalism as well.


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Kevin R Brown

Kevin R Brown wrote:

(Hitler's time with the GWP

 

I don't recall the GWP what was it?

 

Kevin R Brown wrote:

Papen's role in the downfall of Hinderburg's government;

 

IIRC Papen appointed Hitler Chanclor, which obviously contributed, but the fires is what let Hitler gain his powers

 

Kevin R Brwon wrote:

or the Dagger Stab Legend).

 

 

As you mentioned, the Dolchstosslegende which blamed the WWI defeat on Communists and Jews. Which helped the German mood again Communists/Jews, but it was the rise that put it towards Hitler's benifit.

 

 

 

 

For the record, I also left out the League of Nations inaction, or the World Zionist Organization having German members helping spawn the Stab in the back etc... etc...

 

 

 

I did think you wanted the Cole's Notes.

 

 

 


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latincanuck wrote:Lets go a

latincanuck wrote:

Lets go a wee bit farther back and go to 1918, the signing of the treaty of versailles, to which many in Germany, including the National Socialist party (the name of the nazi party before 1919) blamed on Jews and Communists.

 

Yes this was already discussed.

 

 

latincanuck wrote:

Lets forward to 1933, specifically January 30th the Nazis staged a large boycott of all jewish business and professions, which they still blamed for economic state, as well as communism, a week after th

 

Now the Reischtag fire was basically gave Hitler Dictorial powers, but he was already elected, and had not really campaigned strictly against communism but against various other social and economic troubles, as well in 1935 Hitler passed the Nuremberg Laws, which stripped anyone not considered of german blood their citizenship as well prohibited marriages and extramarriatal intercouse with Jews and Germans. As well Capt. Hitler had already shown his antisemitism for the last 15 years, and the National Socialist party which became the Nazi party was already Anti-semetic, as well as against communism, then again they were against capitalism as well.

 

 

When exactly have I said that Hitler wasn't anti-semitic?

 

I already mentioned the Nazi's portrayal of Jews trying to cut down Germany.

 

 


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Well, let's put it this way;

Well, let's put it this way; if I had done a Coles Notes version, it would look something like this:

 - Hitler is mustard gassed at the end of WWI. He receives brain damage and starts becoming delusional.

 - Hitler enters the German Workers Party as a spy when coming back to Germany after the war. Drexler and Eckhart bring him from 'delusional' to 'stone cold fucking crazy'. He also learns how to make public speeches by talking to the largely anti-semitic public.

 - Hitler decides that attempting to overthrow the German government with a pistol is a good idea. It turns out it wasn't. He gets thrown in jail and writes a book.

 - Hitler gets his German citizenship after being released from jail and runs for president against Hinderburg. He loses the election but achieves celebrity status.

 - Hiderburg obliterates his own government by removing Bruning and appointing Papen, the latter individual handing the Nazis elections and ultimately having his parliament dissolved through his incompetency.

 - Hitler is appointed Chancellor. The Enabling Act is passed. The polls are closed. Hinderburg dies, Hitler is left to reign supreme.

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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Well, let me try. What I am

Well, let me try. What I am about to write, by the way, is the "super-condensed, today-I'm-feeling-lazy" version of Hitler's rise to power. It glosses over some key points, and misses some altogether, like the Ruhr crisis and hyperinflation.

As with any subject, this is one where vague terms are best not employed. If we are discussing Hitler's rise to power then we are explicitly referring to the period up until he takes the Chancellorship in 1933. At that point, Hitler is in power. He's just not yet a dictator at the head of a single party state. If we are talking about the consolidation of power then we are talking about the process by which Hitler's party took over the government and dismantled the democratic Weimar government. The Reichstag fire, (which was used to pass the Enabling Act and the Reichstag Fire Degree), and the Night of the Long Knives are both example of measures taken (I say "measures taken" because it is clear that the Nazis started the fire themselves) to consolidate power and thus could not come under a factor in Hitler's rise to power because it took place after that! Like the history of many single party states of the 20th century, I know this one very well (considering that I am not a historian). When we talk about the factors leading to Hitler's rise to power, this is usually broken into two parts. The methods used by the Nazi party to achieve their aims and the preconditions which made the achievement of said aims possible. In talking about the methods of the Nazi Party we again break this down, this time into three parts. The use of ideology (which of course is related to preconditions), the use of terror (Rohm and the Sturmabeilung) in particular, and the use of backstairs intrigue. The basic idea behind backstairs intrigue was that if Hitler gained enough power and popularity and enough seats in the Reichstag, he could convince Schleicher and von Papen to put pressure on Hindenburg to appoint him as Chancellor (Hindenburg, remember, hated Hitler, considering him a fool and a "Bohemian corporal" ). The line of reasoning was that since the Weimar government was so inefficient (owing to the existence of so many political factions, combined with the proportional representation system, resulting in coalition governments), that they would see no choice but to give Hitler the position due to the crisis. von Papen and Schleicher were deluded. They thought they could manuever Hitler into a position where he could be controlled. They also though that they could split the NDSAP in doing so. That was why Strasse, at Papen's behest, propositioned Hitler with the vice-Chancellorship. Strasse was later murdered by the SS. But backstairs intrigue worked. Eventually, Hindenburg had no choice but to offer Hitler in Chancellorship in 1933. He then set in motion the events which would transform Germany into a single party state (remember, when Hitler takes power, he is the chancellor of the Weimar government. He becomes dictator when Hindenburg dies, the office of the Reichspresident and the Chancellor are combined, to make Hitler der Fuhrer).

Anyway, Hitler could only conduct backstairs intrigue once he had attained sufficient power to put pressure on Hindenburg's government. This was achieved by means of ideology and terror, forged of course by the conditions which created the crisis of Weimar Germany. So, let's go back to Weimar Germany.

The trick here is to recognize that two periods of crisis need to be considered. The first crisis is the years 1918-1923. With the defeat of Germany, the Kaisar abdicated and the Weimar government took his place. Politically, Germany was immediately thrown into crisis. The new German democracy had given birth to over 50 political factions in Berlin alone. In 1919, the Freikorp took back Berlin after a short stint of communist rule. The new government was in crisis, the economy was gone, the victorious Entente powers had humiliated Germany with the Treaty of Versailles, which included War Guilt, Reparations (6.6 billion pounds), the evisceration of the German fleet and air force and a limit of 100,000 men in the German armed forces. It was within this period of first crisis that created so many extremist factions that the GWB was formed. I'm not going to spend a lot of time on the incompetence of Commissar Karr or the Munich Putsch because the period after 1929 is more interesting and relevant. Suffice it to say, however, that although Hitler came out of Landsberg with seriously reduced popularity, and a consequent string of electoral humiliations, at least until 1929, his name was made well known by his trial.

Hitler began to move by the ballot box after his time in Landsberg prison, as per the new strategy he had decided upon. Nazism was an extremist ideology. As such, it appealed in times of economic, political and social crisis. The years of 1919-1923 was the first period of crisis. That is why Hitler was sufficiently powerful during this time that he decided his party was capable of enacting the Munich Putsch. The crisis was why people moved toward the flanks of the political spectrum. As Germany’s economic revitalization occurred during the era of conciliation (1923-1929), the popularity of extremist ideology faded. The economic, social and political crisis of the early 1920s was the oxygen of extremist ideology. Had the crisis continued to relax by 1929, so too the power of extremist ideologies would have faded. The initial crisis in Germany, primarily caused by the Treaty of Versailles, was what forged the Nazi Party and established them as a well known political party by 1923. The second crisis, the Wall Street Crash, brought them to power after a period of waning. It was indeed a combination of factors brought Hitler to power but had not the Wall Street crash occurred, the Nazi party would not have risen. With the success of the Dawes plan, the Germans were turning away from the extreme flanks of the political spectrum in the late 1920s. Hitler was powerful in 1923 precisely because of Germany's economic and political misery.

So let's go forward to 1929, after the period of Conciliation and take a look at the appeal of Nazi ideology in this context. The Wall Street Crash results in a second crisis in Germany. The Nazi party consequently sees its power rise. The ideology of the Nazi party was crucial to this rise, as was Hitler himself. Ernst Haefstaengel noted that "what Hitler was able to do to a crowd will not be replicated for 1,000 years" (he was quite wrong, as evidenced by the Cultural Revolution, but that is for another time). In Munich he had established himself as the "unknown soldier with a one of a kind voice". Ideologically, the Nazis were a reactionary party, unlike the Communists, they believed that the best days of Germany lay behind them, during the Second Reich of Bismarck. These "Glory Days" are repeatedly referred to by Hitler in Mein Kampf. To the Nazis, a strong Germany would be militaristic and imperialistic.

Hitler's electoral successes were predicated upon three pledges that he made as per his ideology. The first was the uniting of the German speaking peoples of Europe. This objective was a reference to the Treaty of Versailles, which had cut a strip called the Polish Corridor which separated Germany in two, and had created the new nation of Czechoslovakia, and which forbade the union of Austria and Germany. The second was the rearmament of Germany. Military humiliation was a source of constant anger for Germany (this refers to the disarmament clauses, forbidding the Germans to maintain an air force or submarine force). The third was the destruction of communism. This is important to understanding two features of Nazi ideology (I think, actually, mythology is the correct term), namely anti-Semitism and the stab-in-the-back myth.

 A key factor in the rise to power of the Nazis was the "specter" of communism. Marx would have been surprised that the first communist state was the USSR. For a backward, agrarian nation like Russia to make this move before industrial nations like Britain and Germany would have confounded his analysis. He expected the reverse to occur. In the wake of WWI, the German KDP gained significant strength, and took Berlin as their own in 1919 before the uprising was crushed by the Freikorps. During the initial rise of Nazi popularity in the early 1920s, the combination of the Weimar democracy and economic instability gave birth to over 50 political factions in Berlin alone, but only the NDSAP (The Nazi party) and KDP (German communist party) emerged as powerful movements. As a consequence the early years of the 1920s saw the battle between the flanks of the political spectrum. In the same way, in Italy before Mussolini took power, the Italian Communist Party was significantly stronger than Mussolini's party initially (which, in fact, started out as a socialist party until the "shift to the right" as per Mussolini's strategy). In both Germany and Italy, the right wing eventually won out. Fear of the KDP and communism in general was a key contributor to Nazi victory. Unlike in Russia during the Bolshevik revolution, there were very large swaths of the German population who feared communism. The farmers feared their land would be collectivized. The skilled workers feared their wages would be equalized with the unskilled workers. The middle class and small business owners (which constituted a significantly larger portion of the German population than Russian) feared their businesses would be destroyed etc. etc. This fear was exacerbated by the fact that Germany had already allied itself with the USSR at the Treaty of Rapallo. In many ways, the two states were basically propelled into each others arms. They were both pariah states at the time. Russia, fearful of encirclement by capitalist powers, needed an ally, and Germany, in the midst of economic collapse, needed a trading partner (and a place to violate the Treaty of Versailles in secret by training an armed force). This is also a reason the British were reluctant to bring the iron fist down on Germany, as it would just propel it further toward the USSR. The failure of the Weimar government to ease the economic collapse ensured people would flock to the political flanks, as people became disillusioned with democracy and liberalism in general, and the social strata of Germany made it likely that the right would triumph over the left (which it did). Ideologically, Hitler did not make any clear alterations in the interval years 1924-1929. His party had always been a nationalist, anti-semitic, anti-communist  party on the far right of the political spectrum. It was his method of seizing power the second time around, which proved crucial.

So let's go back to Anti-Semitism and the stab-in-the-back. A key factor in the Nazi rise to power was the Dolchstoßlegende, the famous "Stab-in-the-back" myth which was propagated extensively by the Nazis (and in many cases, believed by them as well), which the German people were only too happy to accept. The premise of the myth was that the German post-WWI woes were due to a stab in the back by the German leadership, to whom Hitler referred as "the November criminals" which surrendered to the Entente powers (hence resulting in the hated Treaty of Versailles) while German forces were "50 miles from Paris"*. Eventually, the various arms of Nazi mythology became intertwined, and Hitler became obsessed with the notion that the stab actually resulted from a Bolshevik-Jewish conspiracy to control the world.

*This itself was just another part of the ever-growing body of Nazi delusion. The German forces in late 1918 were near collapse as the Allies advanced on Flanders and rolled back the German offensive at Ypres.

The above is a mere fraction of the Nazi mythology used to justify their anti-Semitism. Nazi anti-Semitism was a very confused and contradictory list of accusations ranging from being the leaders of a communist plot to destroy Germany, to being orchestrators of the Wall Street crash by controlling the strings of banks (a capitalist plot, in other words). Whatever the irreconcilable differences between believing that the Jews were evil communist agitators and evil money hoarding bankers which was the cause of all the misery in Germany, the obvious contradiction was utterly lost on the German people, who were completely happy to blame someone, especially the Jews, for all their misery. I say "especially the Jews" because anti-Semitism had existed in Germany for centuries. During the Black Death, German towns would march the Jews into fires, believing them to be the cause of the Y. pestis, by poisoning wells under the auspices of a secret Europe-wide Jewish network. In other words, the combination of obsessive scapegoating conspiracy theories and anti-Semitism combined into a wildly popular and believed combination was hardly unique to Nazi ideology, although the way in which the Nazis combined them was particularly absurd in that it was contradictory, but the point is that this ran very deep through German history and culture.

Quote:

As well Capt. Hitler had already shown his antisemitism for the last 15 years, and the National Socialist party which became the Nazi party was already Anti-semetic, as well as against communism, then again they were against capitalism as well.

This is very wrong. The Nazi state existed on the far right of the political spectrum. Much power was concentrated in the hands of the Schacht, the German big-business. Hitler would never have risen to power without the backing of the wealthy. Some historians have argued that the Nazi state essentially depended on corporate backing to survive. There is no doubt that large conglomerates, particularly arms manufacturers and corporations like IG Farben, wielded tremendous power in Nazi Germany. They were analogous to the Japanese zaibatsu like Mitsubishi and Nakajima.

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

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Cpt_pineapple
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Kevin R Brown wrote:Well,

Kevin R Brown wrote:

Well, let's put it this way; if I had done a Coles Notes version, it would look something like this:

 - Hitler is mustard gassed at the end of WWI. He receives brain damage and starts becoming delusional.

 

 - Hitler enters the German Workers Party as a spy when coming back to Germany after the war. Drexler and Eckhart bring him from 'delusional' to 'stone cold fucking crazy'. He also learns how to make public speeches by talking to the largely anti-semitic public.

 

 

You asked how the Nazis came to power. While this may explain the "stone cold fucking crazy" aspect of it, with the exception of the learning public speeches, this isn't really how the Nazis came to power.

 

Quote:

 - Hitler decides that attempting to overthrow the German government with a pistol is a good idea. It turns out it wasn't. He gets thrown in jail and writes a book.

 

Once again, the [what the fuck was it Munich-fuest?]  unless of course you mentioned Hitler's boost in popularity after the Munich court speech.


 

Quote:

 

 - Hitler gets his German citizenship after being released from jail and runs for president against Hinderburg. He loses the election but achieves celebrity status.

 

You should perhaps mention how he got said status.

 

It was the previously discussed shitter economy, combined with the previously discussed stab in the back legend from after WWI combined with the Nazi promotion of the previously mentioned Jewish and Communist plot which was amplified by the stab in the back. It turns out, according to Hitler, those Jews and Communists are at it again to bring down Germany.

 

Kevin R Brown wrote:

 - Hiderburg obliterates his own government by removing Bruning and appointing Papen, the latter individual handing the Nazis elections and ultimately having his parliament dissolved through his incompetency.

IIRC Papen was ironically appointed to supress the Nazi influence.

 

 

 

 


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Well, DG, I would argue that

Well, DG, I would argue that Hitler's involvement in the German Worker's Party is fairly significant, isn't it? Drexler arguably provided him with all of the anti-semitic ammunition (so to speak) that he would later use, Eckart poisoned the proverbial well with all of his conspiracy theory nonsense and supernatural/occultist claptrap and the party itself was the vehicle to use for Adolf to hone his speech giving skills (without those, he would not have been able to gain his initial notoriety).

Or am I incorrect (just to ask your honest opinion)?

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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Yes of course. It's what

Yes of course. It's what gave him a chance to realize his talent as an orator and brought him celebrity status. Like I said, I can write a lot more on this subject, but the above is sort of the "Meh, I don't really want to write a lot" analysis.

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

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Capt.

I never said that you said hitler was not an anti-semite. But he did not rise to power by being completely anti-communist. On the contrary it was with the help of the German communist party that he was able to bring down the previous government, if you like to recall july 21st, 1931 which was called the red referendum. The communists and nazi's worked together for a decade, from 1923 to 1933, why? because they shared a dislike for democratic order and moderate social democrates and because it would help the nazi's get into power.

Now once in power the nazi's no longer needed the communists and turned on them. This was easily done and was able to be done due to the events from the late 1920's to 1932, which there were various political assasinations, then on august 9th, 1932 amendments were made to the Reichstrafgesetzbuch statute on 'acts of political violence', increasing the penalty to 'lifetime imprisonment, 20 years hard labour or death'. Special courts were announced to try such offences, when in power less than half a year later, Hitler would use this legislation against his opponents with devastating effect. Now where he gained his dictorial powers is from the Reichstag fire decree, but it was not because of his campaigning against communists. There are is a ton of other events, other social-economic factors as well has help from the communist party (and their mutual distaste for Jews) and the failings of the SDP and those in charge, that allowed the Nazi's to rise in power and eventually take dictorial powers.


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No, not really

Look I understand where you're coming from you're not the first to ask this question, but look closer. First Christmas is not a reformed pagan holiday. Christians started Christmas. What did happen is that it was moved from the spring which is when Jesus was actrually born to winter to compete with a pagan holiday. I do admit I don't know as much about Easter's history in this context, but I can find out.

If God doesn't do things the way you think they should be done maybe you should entertain the idea that it's you who doesn't understand.


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Not quite right

Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:

Actually, yesterday was Easter according to the gospel of John. Since it is a gospel, it must be the truth.

 

Easter celebrates his resurrection. Which puts Easter on Sunday. Good Friday remembers  his death.

 

If God doesn't do things the way you think they should be done maybe you should entertain the idea that it's you who doesn't understand.


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Are you sure about that

Kevin R Brown wrote:

Quote:
So the whole German economy in the shitter and desperate grasp for a form of German nationalism wouldn't have been sufficient?

No, it would not have been.

So all the genocides over in Africa must have a religious basis somehow and not be purely politcally and economicly driven.

Now you may return to your regularly scheduled debate on the cause of Nazi Germany.


 

If God doesn't do things the way you think they should be done maybe you should entertain the idea that it's you who doesn't understand.