GOD'S LOVE-HATE RELATIONSHIP WITH HUMANITY
Offline I don't know if this question was asked in any previous threads, so please excuse me if it was:
Christians, please answer how is it not cruel and unjustifiable for a serial killer such as Jeffrey Dahmer to believe and be saved, while an innocent or moral nonbeliever (who did good all his/her life) is condemned by the christian god?
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Offline ClockCat wrote:
If you buy now for the low low price of 30% of your income, and a few hours every Sunday you can purify the invisible taint inside!
It gets the stain RIGHT OUT! Look at that!
Honestly, I never knew Jesus was so absorbant.
There should be more commercials for him! Like Shamwow!
ClockCat, you are just *precious.* Can I take you home with me? I promise I'll take reaaaally good care of you!
Only if you promise to love me and pet me forever and evar 
Theism is why we can't have nice things.
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Offline How do you do the "so and so wrote" thing where you outline quotes.
And also, you read scriptures and became a skeptic, did you?
"I read one fish two fish red fish blue fish" and became a skeptic as well. Things werent adding up. One fish said he was red and the other blue. that goes agianst the law of noncontradiction. unless there was some kind of underlying meaning to it all. Hmm, perhaps it was just to make kids laugh and learn. In that case, it would make a lot of sense.
Perhaps the Bible is trying to make you understand truth.
You still have too much grass.
Theism is why we can't have nice things.
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Offline Now for the real question. You studied scriptures? What don't you like about it. Is it the priests who want your money? Because if you know scriptures, you know Jesus likes to quote the Pharisees who are "Godly individuals indeed". But Jesus sees through their disguise and exposes their deceptive ways.
Have you studied prophecy? Some of the most convincing evidence is in biblical prophecy. Not that you need prophecy to understand a true voice, but it certainly inspires truth.
I studied all of the Bible in several versions including all the popular versions such as KJV, Hebrew, and Douay-Rheims in parochial school and in college.
It's not just the greedy TV evangelists or the wealthy unhelpful Catholic church though neither does anything to aid in real world help.
Different writers claimed Jesus said this and that though the claims are quite different in some of the Gospels. I've never read anything that Jesus actually wrote as far as I know he never did. So when you say Jesus liked to quote this or that, who can tell from whence the words originated. In some ways Jesus who is called a teacher exhibits characteristics much like a Pharisee or a scholar for his time period.
I spent many years studying prophecy as advocated by the Church and have spent many more in research on my own to conclude that Christians have distorted Judaism into something else entirely through interpretation that was never part of the original ideas. This does not mean I see Judaism as more than literature, legends, myths or parables, some badly told.
But if you like to present something of interest we can discuss our different views.
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"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
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Offline I spent many years studying prophecy as advocated by the Church and have spent many more in research on my own to conclude that Christians have distorted Judaism into something else entirely through interpretation that was never part of the original ideas. This does not mean I see Judaism as more than literature, legends, myths or parables, some badly told.
Yup. That's true. For instance- and this is really the big one- Judaism has no concept of a demigod (of which Jesus is an example.) There are lots of people imbued with god's power, sure; plenty who had the 'spirit of the LORD' upon them, but no incarnate god. They NEVER had the idea, ever. So- the idea of an incarnate god had to come from somewhere, and it *just so happened* that every other ethnic group in and around the Empire had many gods, most of them had demigods, and the early Christians drew parallels between those gods and theirs to make the case for the truth of their god.
Judaism merely gave the Christians a base that seemed free of the paganism around which these mostly desperately poor and very resentful and jealous people grew up. Judaism was an almost inevitable choice, given that the effectively monotheistic neo-Platonists and Stoics were far too closely associated with the Roman elite.
The problem, of course, was all those LAWS! So, what happened was, at some point before 100 or so, some people got the bright idea of tacking on the works of the 'Apostle' Paul to their faith; this allowed them to conveniently ignore that part about how Jesus wasn't coming to do away with the Law, and to have something (really nasty) to say about women and gay people (gay men, more specifically- nobody gave half a flying fuck about women back then, for the most part.)
Then there's the fact that, even if you do ignore the early history of Christianity, and the disconnect between what Paul said and what Jesus said, you still are looking at some REALLY badly out of context 'prophesies.' Isaiah, for instance, isn't talking about the coming of a Messiah for the Jewish people- he's talking about 'suffering Israel' on the eve of a siege by the Assyrians. Which would get anyone in an Apocalyptic mood, really.
Even putting *that* aside- the prophesies all come from the horrendously corrupt Septaugint Hebrew-to-Greek translation of the Hellenistic age. It was discarded c. 100, and only those books the Jewish people could find in Hebrew to re-translate and re-learn were included in the post-Septaugint Torah and Tanakh. Meaning- the basis for the prophesies were flawed.
So, there you go.
If you don't believe your non-belief then you don't believe and you must not be an atheist.
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Offline Dammit! Missed all the fun. I gotta tel ya, reading those posts I was very tempted to call poe.
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Offline Dammit! Missed all the fun. I gotta tel ya, reading those posts I was very tempted to call poe.
Well it looks as though I was right... Just can't let it go can he?
After eating an entire bull, a mountain lion felt so good he started roaring. He kept it up until a hunter came along and shot him.
The moral: When you're full of bull, keep your mouth shut.
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Offline If it is any comfort to you, I highly doubt that Hitler or Dahmer would genuinely repent. They would most likely CLAIM to have repented because they fear Hell. But that's like the difference between being genuinely sorry or simply sorry that you got caught.
No, that's no comfort to me at all. The discussion is hypothetical anyways.
Anyway, Hitler rejected his Roman Catholocism early on. He may have used it to give a religious bridle to his hate-filled agenda, but he was definitely an atheist.
"The fox remains always a fox, the goose remains a goose, and the tiger will retain the character of a tiger. The only difference that can exist within the species must be in the various degrees of structural strength and active power, in the intelligence, efficiency, endurance, etc., with which the individual specimens are endowed." (Mein Kampf, vol. ii, ch. xi)
"For it was by the Will of God that men were made of a certain bodily shape, were given their natures and their faculties." - Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, vol. ii, ch. x
"From where do we get the right to believe, that from the very beginning Man was not what he is today? Looking at Nature tells us, that in the realm of plants and animals changes and developments happen. But nowhere inside a kind shows such a development as the breadth of the jump , as Man must supposedly have made, if he has developed from an ape-like state to what he is today." - Adolf Hitler, Hitler's Tabletalk (Tischgesprache im Fuhrerhauptquartier)
"Whoever would dare to raise a profane hand against that highest image of God among His creatures would sin against the bountiful Creator of this marvel and would collaborate in the expulsion from Paradise." - Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, vol ii, ch. i
"My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them." - Adolf Hitler, speech, April 12 1922, published in My New Order
"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith . . . we need believing people." - Adolf Hitler, Speech, April 26, 1933
"The most marvelous proof of the superiority of Man, which puts man ahead of the animals, is the fact that he understands that there must be a Creator." - Adolf Hitler, Hitler's Tabletalk (Tischgesprache im Fuhrerhauptquartier)
"Even today I am not ashamed to say that, overpowered by stormy enthusiasm, I fell down on my knees and thanked Heaven from an overflowing heart for granting me the good fortune of being permitted to live at this time." - Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 5
"What we have to fight for is the necessary security for the existence and increase of our race and people, the subsistence of its children and the maintenance of our racial stock unmixed, the freedom and independence of the Fatherland; so that our people may be enabled to fulfill the mission assigned to it by the Creator." - Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 8
"In short, the results of miscegenation are always the following: (a) The level of the superior race becomes lowered; (b) physical and mental degeneration sets in, thus leading slowly but steadily towards a progressive drying up of the vital sap. The act which brings about such a development is a sin against the will of the Eternal Creator. And as a sin this act will be avenged." - Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 11
"Anyone who dares to lay hands on the highest image of the Lord commits sacrilege against the benevolent creator of this miracle and contributes to the expulsion from paradise." - Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 1
"Thus inwardly armed with confidence in God and the unshakable stupidity of the voting citizenry, the politicians can begin the fight for the 'remaking' of the Reich as they call it." - Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 1
http://skepticwiki.org/index.php/Hitler_and_evolution,
http://www.geocities.com/capecanaveral/hangar/2437/nazis.htm
http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/AdolfHitlerFaithGod.htm
http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/postmonth/2008_04.html
Just curious, which god is that?
He's talking about the real one.
the first post was questioning God's judgment. I think you automatically assume that God is supposed to think the way you do. God works in mysterious ways.
In other words, his actions and religion don't make any sense, so you just have to have faith and sacrifice your brain to him.
There is countless demonstrations in Scriptures. So de-twist what you twisted. Lets start at this...Do serial killers who commit the most terrible offense imaginable deserve to be saved more than honest 'truth soldiers' (atheists)?
the answer is its up to God. Job 28:28 is a good response also.
Yup, so you blindly follow the morals of a book written by slave-owning, ritual stoning humans living in the bronze age based on the assumption that it's the word of God while ignoring your own conscience. Good job!
After you disagree with that scripture, I am guessing it is because you are a rational scientific truth soldier, right.
No, it's because I don't believe that it's the word of God.
Im calling you out. Im saying your intentions are not for truth.
That's just dandy. Now pull your head out of your ass and make a real argument.
Im saying atheist intent is predetermined intent that left truth out a long time ago. You know why I say that? there is no sense when you talk with no value. Jesus Christ talks with value. It makes sense to the truth and the truth only.
What is atheist intent? How is it predetermined? What is truth? How is it left out? What is value? How do I talk with no value? How does Jesus talk with value? How does a statement "make sense to the truth?" What does that mean?
You want to try that with some syllogisms?
Now that youve heard me say that, Im assuming your ready to ask how I know.
Yup.
My answer is because I read the truth.
How do you know it's the truth? How do I know it's the truth?
When you read a lie, you might become a skeptic.
How do you know it's a lie? How I know it's a lie?
When you read a theory, you might become a ponderer.
How do you know it's a theory? How I know it's a theory? What is a theory? What is a ponderer?
When you read a golf instructional guide, you might become a golfer. When you read the truth, then you will follow Jesus Christ.
This is one of the most intellectually bankrupt posts I have read in my entire life.
You studied scriptures? What don't you like about it.
It contradicts itself, logic, chemistry, biology, physics, history, geography, etc.
Is it the priests who want your money?
I don't like priests, but they don't affect the validity of scripture.
Have you studied prophecy? Some of the most convincing evidence is in biblical prophecy.
Examples?
Not that you need prophecy to understand a true voice,
What is a true voice?
but it certainly inspires truth.
What does that mean?
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
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Offline DIRTY MEAN S.O.D.:the first post was questioning God's judgment. I think you automatically assume that God is supposed to think the way you do. God works in mysterious ways.
AGNOSTICATOR2:First, I'm an agnostic. You are a christian who believes, but cannot know what god is like or wants. God is a mystery, which can't be proven or disproven. Even if god exists,humans have no way to explain or describe him/her/it. But even if you do think god can be known, "god's mysterious ways" would prevent you from speaking for him.
DIRTY MEAN S.O.D.:Do serial killers who commit the most terrible offense imaginable deserve to be saved more than honest 'truth soldiers' (atheists)?
The answer is its up to God. Job 28:28 is a good response also.
AGNOSTICATOR2:Yes, if the christian version of god exists, it would be up to him to decide. Not just atheists, but agnostics and those of all other religions and beliefs would be condemned to hell.
DIRTY MEAN S.O.D.:After you disagree with that scripture, I am guessing it is because you are a rational scientific truth soldier, right. Im calling you out. Im saying your intentions are not for truth. Im saying atheist intent is predetermined intent that left truth out a long time ago. You know why I say that? there is no sense when you talk with no value. Jesus Christ talks with value. It makes sense to the truth and the truth only.
Now that youve heard me say that, Im assuming your ready to ask how I know. My answer is because I read the truth.
AGNOSTICATOR2:You don't know me or my intentions. I was a born again bible believing christian who read and valued the "truth". Christianity makes good people turn a blind eye to the truth and reality surrounding them, causing them to devalue those unlike themselves. If you value life and other sentient beings, you wouldn't be so quick to judge. Besides, the n.t. tells you NOT to judge-that's up to god.
If you read the bible honestly and without prejudice, maybe you'd realize truth is the quality of being in accordance with experience, facts, and reality, and is verifiable to humans (dic). You could see the allegorical value of the bible, but to know that god wrote it or agrees with it, is to know god's mind.
Value(s), i.e. social principles and standards, pertain to human social interaction-not between god and human. If god is said to only value people who believe the bible, and cruelly tortures those who don't- no matter how kind, generous, and self-sacrificing they may be- then god turns out to be more cruel than all criminals. God becomes a monster whose thirst for revenge, not justice, cannot be quenched. This is what your truth and value leads to.
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Offline By the way welcome to the forums, I'd say jump in but you already have. Great comments.
You may want to learn to use the quote function for ease of posting. See the following thread. Have fun.
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"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
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Offline For this post to make sense I'll assume that you're a good person.
So with that in mind, we are not so much different.
We both try to be decent human beings. I never killed anyone. Actually I never even been in a fight, so I never harmed anybody. It's silly, but I don't even kill a fly annoyingly flying around my head. I hope you didn't too.
If you sin, you repent. I don't tell it to the priest, but I still don't feel good.
We are not so different, I just don't believe in god.
So tell me is god, who values faith more than morality, worth worshiping.
If that's the case then the Satan is the good character of that story.
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Offline Salamando wrote:For this post to make sense I'll assume that you're a good person.
So with that in mind, we are not so much different.
We both try to be decent human beings. I never killed anyone. Actually I never even been in a fight, so I never harmed anybody. It's silly, but I don't even kill a fly annoyingly flying around my head. I hope you didn't too.
If you sin, you repent. I don't tell it to the priest, but I still don't feel good.
We are not so different, I just don't believe in god.
So tell me is god, who values faith more than morality, worth worshiping.
If that's the case then the Satan is the good character of that story.
I always thought by biblical standards, Satan was the good guy. I mean, as a fictional character he championed for freedom and independant thought.
He is like Morpheus from the Matrix saving Neo from the same repetition day after day.
Theism is why we can't have nice things.
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Offline By the way welcome to the forums, I'd say jump in but you already have. Great comments.
You may want to learn to use the quote function for ease of posting. See the following thread. Have fun.
Thanks, pauljohntheskeptic! I couldn't figure out how to break up quotes, so I posted anyway. Thanks for solving it with the link.
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Offline I always thought by biblical standards, Satan was the good guy. I mean, as a fictional character he championed for freedom and independant thought.
He is like Morpheus from the Matrix saving Neo from the same repetition day after day.
I Agree. I always thought, what kind of retard would ever challenge a being that could destroy him with a thought? The only reason you might do such a thing is if you had the moral high ground.
After eating an entire bull, a mountain lion felt so good he started roaring. He kept it up until a hunter came along and shot him.
The moral: When you're full of bull, keep your mouth shut.
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Offline
Dirty Mean S.O.D wrote:
Have you studied prophecy? Some of the most convincing evidence is in biblical prophecy.
Examples?
Dirty Mean S.O.D wrote:
Not that you need prophecy to understand a true voice,
What is a true voice?
Examples. Daniel 8. Daniel was written in the 500sBC and he prophesied a series of events that lead to Jesus Christ dying on the cross under the roman empire. Daniel prophesied that a king from Grecia' would wipe out two great empires to the east, Media and Persia. But when he is strongest, he will be cut off and his empire will be split into four. those four would soon merge into two. Then one would rise up from the two, the Roman empire. This empire would prosper and mock Gods people and what was Holy. Then Daniel prophesied when Jesus would begin his ministry. This is amazing evidence that is overlooked. If you have time to look over it , you can google it to find some sources. Dont take the sources word for it, but rather follow along in the book and ask yourself if it is quite amazing or perhaps to vague to be certain? Ill tell you right now that there can't be much argument against that kind of accuracy. Its interesting. Many unbelievers seem to only explain it by saying that Daniel's work was tampered with later on. So even they see it as a mystery. So its worth taking a look.
What is a true voice? A voice thats true. No need to go looking for patterns in the cosmos.
How do I know? Why should I care? What do you know that I don't? Who are you to tell me how I should think?
these are common atheist responses. Sounds like there is some need for approval. Im just showing you where the good tasting bread is. Do as you please.
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Offline If Dahmer repented for his sins and accepted Jesus as his lord and savior, then God will forgive him. But only provided that it is an act of contrition.
As far as the other hypothetical person, "good" and "moral" according to what standard? Your standard? Man's standard? Did this person ever lie, lust, cheat, steal, etc.? Did this other person repent and accept Jesus or did s/he continue to sin without any regret? If the latter, then s/he is going to Hell.
I don't see any problems here.
So you believe that only people who accept jesus as savior can be saved? I do see a problem here actually. There were billions of people born who never knew of or accepted jesus. The egyptians in the late dynasties lived and died before jesus. Do they deserve to spend an eternity in torment for being born at the wrong place and time? Do the native american indians deserve to go to hell up until spanish missionaries came to the new world? Of course they brought catholocism which everybody knows is of the devil too. Of course you don't see a problem with it. You have been deluded for so long by your church you can't even ask the tough questions. You'll find many of us here actually did hold on to beliefs such as your's at one point. If god exists then it can save whoever it wants to. Besides, what has the average person ever done to deserve hell for an eternity?
"Always seek out the truth, but avoid at all costs those that claim to have found it" ANONYMOUS
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Offline ClockCat wrote:
Are you Mormon?
No, I'm actually a real Christian.
HeeHee and I am a real atheist. Do you know what an atheist is? I am dying to hear what a real christian is. Did you know that you're judging people here? Did you also know that jesus was supposed to have said to view others as better than yourself? So, yes you are a real christian judging from your actions. Well maybe not a real christian but typical at least.
"Always seek out the truth, but avoid at all costs those that claim to have found it" ANONYMOUS
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Offline This is amazing evidence that is overlooked.
I doubt it.
Dont take the sources word for it, but rather follow along in the book and ask yourself if it is quite amazing or perhaps to vague to be certain?
Okay.
Ill tell you right now that there can't be much argument against that kind of accuracy. Its interesting.
Yes, which proves that atheists are in denial, right?
Many unbelievers seem to only explain it by saying that Daniel's work was tampered with later on. So even they see it as a mystery. So its worth taking a look.
Fine, I'll take a look.
How do I know? Why should I care? What do you know that I don't? Who are you to tell me how I should think?these are common atheist responses.
Those aren't the questions I asked, and you haven't answered them.
Sounds like there is some need for approval. Im just showing you where the good tasting bread is. Do as you please.
Many of your sentence don't make any sense...at all. I just wanted you to clarify. Also, I need evidence for your claims.
You know? Evidence?
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
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Offline Not even close. Only certain people believe that the book was written at that time; many scholars (even Biblical ones) believe it was written- or at least redacted- in the 2nd century BCE, after the Maccabean revolt against the Hellenistic Greeks. So don't go throwing around "I know this" when even experts don't. http://www.religioustolerance.org/daniel.htm
Besides which, the prophesies aren't even that good. From the article:
Prior to Daniel 11:40, the author(s) has been recording past events under the Babylonian, Median, Persian and Greek empires. In Daniel 11:40-45, he really attempts to predict the future. He prophesizes that a king of the south (of the Ptolemaic dynasty) will attack the Greeks in Palestine, under Antiochus. The Greeks will win, will lay spoil to all of northeast Africa, and return to Palestine where Antiochus will die. The end of history will then occur. The author(s) appeared to be a poor psychic because none of these events actually happened. Antiochus did die in 164 BCE, but it was in Persia. Thus, the book was apparently completed before 164.
Your point about it being prophecy for Jesus- wow. Just wow. It requires an extrapolation of the vision of the four beasts, with one beast being Rome; and that the vision of the dead rising and blah blah after 1355 days to mean 'the' End of Days. These assumptions, as with all other assumptions about so-called prophesy, rest upon nothing. Actually, in the case of the Christian Messiah, worse than nothing- as one would think early Christians would have enough sense to find some prophesy that could actually be taken out of context without someone saying, for instance (w/Isaiah, CF): "Wait a minute- that's about hope for the continuation of their culture, and they're talking about the Assyrians."
Works of prophesy shouldn't be used as evidence anyway- if prophesy is done right, it's vague enough to be applicable almost anywhere and at any time. If it's not- it's generally been reverse-engineered into a text, or it's dead wrong.
these are common atheist responses. Sounds like there is some need for approval. Im just showing you where the good tasting bread is. Do as you please.
I keep good-tasting bread in my bread box. It gets hard after two days if I don't eat it. It doesn't make me feel guilty or make me ask why it was invented by people; it's just good bread. I think I'll stick to my bread, thank you.
If you don't believe your non-belief then you don't believe and you must not be an atheist.
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Offline You avoided the mystery in it all. Just like I assumed, any man who wants to refute Daniel needs to date Daniel after Alexander the Great's conquest in the 330sBC, even though scholars believe it is dated in 500s bc. That also brings up a good point. Not one skeptic will disagree with the dating of Alexander's conquest, but when the book of Daniel is contested, they refute the evidence automatically and say there must be some conspiracy.
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Offline I actually didn't avoid the 'mystery' of it; I merely said prophesies tend to be so vague, most of the time, as to be applicable to almost any situation. And that the book did, regardless of any amazing prophesy that it may contain (again- prophesy; vague) *does* contain at least one error.
When it comes to the dating- nobody knows for sure. And that's the problem. I don't give two flying fucks about whether the Alexandrine conquest date was right, because we're not talking about that. We're talking about the possibility- and it's a pretty good one- that the book was redacted post-Maccabean revolt, before old whats-his-name died and the writer of the book got it wrong.
So, again: The prophesies were off, even in the book, compared to historical events. How does this help the case for this particular book being a reliable source for Messianic prophesy?
Last note: Conspiracy? Hardly. Just people re-writing things for the necessities of the times; literary organicism was a *few* millenia off at that point, so it's not like this would be a unique redaction. Nor would it point in the direction of deliberate misdirection. Hence, no conspiracy.
If you don't believe your non-belief then you don't believe and you must not be an atheist.
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Offline I predict the downfall of the United States!
I predict that there will be war in the world!
And famine!
I predict disease will spread among some people!
Things things shall come to pass, then you will know that Shamwow was the REAL quicker picker up.
Theism is why we can't have nice things.
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Offline So far, in answer to the question:
How is the christian god's (or the shamwowgod from australia) offering forgiveness and salvation to believers in spite of their bad behavior, while excluding and condemning morally good nonbelievers and those of other religions, not cruel and justifiable?
We have one christian saying,"So?" What's the problem?" I take that as, it's cruel but justifiable.
Another seeing it as god's prerogitive, so it's alright that it is cruel because god can do whatever he wants with humans without justification.
Any other thoughts from christians?
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Offline I predict the downfall of the United States!
I predict that there will be war in the world!
And famine!
I predict disease will spread among some people!
Things things shall come to pass, then you will know that Shamwow was the REAL quicker picker up.
Obama will not be reelected in 2018. Fred Phelps will be dead by the same year. At least 20 seperate battles will ocurr between 2009 and 2018. At least one of them will include the US. At least one other will include Israel. At least 10 will be fought in Africa.
Now that's prophecy! No vagueness at all. And when I'm proved right in/by 2018, you'll all be forced to acknowledge me as the one true god! BOW TO ME!!!!one1one!
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
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Offline So far, in answer to the question:
How is the christian god's (or the shamwowgod from australia) offering forgiveness and salvation to believers in spite of their bad behavior, while excluding and condemning morally good nonbelievers and those of other religions, not cruel and justifiable?
We have one christian saying,"So?" What's the problem?" I take that as, it's cruel but justifiable.
Another seeing it as god's prerogitive, so it's alright that it is cruel because god can do whatever he wants with humans without justification.
Any other thoughts from christians?
I already went down that path in post 67 and the christians gloss over it. If god can save somebody because they were good enough then what use is christianity as most preach it? Boy howdy there are some real stretches to try to get this little kink ironed out. Me thinks the apologetics have to work overtime on this question.
"Always seek out the truth, but avoid at all costs those that claim to have found it" ANONYMOUS
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Offline If god can save somebody because they were good enough then what use is christianity as most preach it? Boy howdy there are some real stretches to try to get this little kink ironed out. Me thinks the apologetics have to work overtime on this question.
Me thinks you exposed the uselessness of salvation and sin. Without the cynical assumption that human nature is evil, christianity collapses. They failed to realize humans have the capacity for both good and bad (evil is only a religious term!).
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Offline You say Daniel "could have been" dated post Maccabean revolt. Your decieved, but that can wait.
He prophesied when Jesus would begin his ministry on the exact day. this is not vague. Its amazing.
You said Daniel got something wrong in his prophesy. I want to research it further. If you would be so kind, do you know the verse where Daniel made the error? Why do you think it was an error?
Why do you so readily refute the Lord? I am starting to see a trend of lacking trust almost in an irresponsible way. If you are unsure about something maybe I can answer. You have to be specific. then I might be able to give you answers.
Who do you trust in giving you answers? The Bible is the most historically acurate book to survive the ages.
But listen ,the convincing evidence for me came from my heart. My interactions with friends, families, and enemies.
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Offline You say Daniel "could have been" dated post Maccabean revolt. Your decieved, but that can wait.
Aww, how nice. I'll bet you say that to all the goils.
He prophesied when Jesus would begin his ministry on the exact day. this is not vague. Its amazing.
No, it didn't. The book of Daniel wasn't about the messiah; the messiah concept wasn't invented until at least the Hellenistic times, and again, the prophesy (even the parts that were 'proven') were so vague (7:3-6, for instance.... how does one extrapolate kingdoms from metaphorical beasts?) as to be impossible to disprove.
You said Daniel got something wrong in his prophesy. I want to research it further. If you would be so kind, do you know the verse where Daniel made the error? Why do you think it was an error?
First, have the decency to read the damn link if I give you one. Secondly, from the previous reply, *again*:
Prior to Daniel 11:40, the author(s) has been recording past events under the Babylonian, Median, Persian and Greek empires. In Daniel 11:40-45, he really attempts to predict the future. He prophesizes that a king of the south (of the Ptolemaic dynasty) will attack the Greeks in Palestine, under Antiochus. The Greeks will win, will lay spoil to all of northeast Africa, and return to Palestine where Antiochus will die. The end of history will then occur. The author(s) appeared to be a poor psychic because none of these events actually happened. Antiochus did die in 164 BCE, but it was in Persia. Thus, the book was apparently completed before 164.
So lulz, oops, blah blah.
Why do you so readily refute the Lord?
Why are you so willing to see patterns where there are none? Also: Leading question. Assumes some sort of god exists. One can't 'refute' your god any more than one can 'refute' Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny.
I am starting to see a trend of lacking trust almost in an irresponsible way.
Trust has nothing to do with this. EVIDENCE IS ALL. You've given me some really vague prophesy that needs decoding- and it *just so happens* that your religion, and not the religion from whence this prophecy came, has the answer. Fancy that! Bit of luck, huh?
I will trust your god first when I see some really compelling evidence. Let's say, oh, a bunch of massive pillars of shimmering metal, covered in a language that nobody's ever seen before but everyone can read, surrounded by fire that gives off light but not heat, giving all us humans precisely and explicitly, the word of god.
THEN I will worry about 'trust.'
And don't give me that 'but that takes away your free will!' argument. It doesn't hold water. If we KNEW that god existed, we would be discussing how to worship god, not whether or not god existed or if there are several or what god/the gods want, etc. We'd still have the free will to figure out what to do in god's name. And we wouldn't have to worry about arbitrarily being born into a culture that has moved away from 'the true religion' and we wouldn't have to worry about the question of whether or not human error crept into god's instructions for us.
As it is now, god's 'will' is arbitrary, god's justice perverse.
If you are unsure about something maybe I can answer. You have to be specific. then I might be able to give you answers.
I think I was pretty specific above, and in the Pascal's Wager thread. Where is god? What does god want? How do we know? What if you're wrong? What if everyone's wrong? More alarmingly: What if everyone's wrong and god is REALLY PISSED OFF?
Who do you trust in giving you answers?
Someone with actual data and not a book of mythology they truly believe is a factual account of historical events. Neither would I believe someone who was an Illiad/Odyssey literalist.
The Bible is the most historically acurate book to survive the ages.
.....
You've reduced me to elipses.
Let's see:
-Literal Genesis (garden of eden?) Debunked, years ago, and even more strongly debunked nowadays.
-Noah's flood? Historically, the continuation of the Mesopotamian flood-myths, possibly based on several really big (but not world-covering) local floods. As real history? De-fucking-bunked.
-Exodus? About a century of excavations at the sites that claimed to be where the Hebrews fled from the big, bad Egyptians to the desert have turned up nothing. At least, nothing within several hundred years of the time period claimed. Also: in the account, the author mentions several kingdoms that didn't get up and running until the 7th/6th centuries BCE.... WELL after the foundation of the kingdom(s) of Israel, which actually *are* backed up by archaeology.
Most of the rest of the Tanakh is historically accurate- reasonably so, anyway. Though due to the redactions in the Maccabean period, some things are a bit hazy. And the various times the Jewish kingdoms splintered made for some really interesting lineage lists (CF Josephus' history of the Jewish people- there's some stuff in there that's not in the Hebrew Bible).
So, no, 'most historically accurate book' is a misnomer. Comparatively? Yes. But it's not a history book; it doesn't claim to be. It's an anthology, some of its philosophy, some of its cosmology, some of its prophecy and so on.
But listen ,the convincing evidence for me came from my heart. My interactions with friends, families, and enemies.
Not really. That's just evidence of belief. The weight of it is the same whatever religion or spiritual system one looks at. I don't think I said it in this thread, but 'Look around you' is not an explanation for what one believes, and it is not evidence.
If you don't believe your non-belief then you don't believe and you must not be an atheist.
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To quote, click on the word quote at the bottom of the post. If you wish to delete some of it you can.
Actually I have many Bibles and have spent much time studying in parochial schools as well as a graduate degree from a Jesuit University. I'd be glad to play why the Bible has problems with you.
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"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
To quote, click on the word quote at the bottom of the post. If you wish to delete some of it you can.
Thankyou for the quote lesson. Lets hope I got it right. Now for the real question. You studied scriptures? What don't you like about it. Is it the priests who want your money? Because if you know scriptures, you know Jesus likes to quote the Pharisees who are "Godly individuals indeed". But Jesus sees through their disguise and exposes their deceptive ways.
Have you studied prophecy? Some of the most convincing evidence is in biblical prophecy. Not that you need prophecy to understand a true voice, but it certainly inspires truth.