Is there any meaning in the world?

godisgoneonhoneymoon
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Is there any meaning in the world?

I have a simple and direct question. Is there any meaning in this world including the humanity itself?

Religion makes me suffer everyday!


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People should get laid often.

People should get laid often.

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Create your own meaning. 

Create your own meaning.  Smiling


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The meaning of a duck

godisgoneonhoneymoon wrote:

I have a simple and direct question. Is there any meaning in this world including the humanity itself?

Short answer: no.

Medium answer:

I usually respond to such questions with something like "what's the meaning of a duck?"

The question is however in no sense simple. Meaning is only something that has relevance inside one's head. It doesn't represent the world outside, just the way we organize our understanding of it. You can say what a statement means because you can parse the words and divine significance from the combination.

You've learned that when I shoot words at you -- despite the fact that they are just complex combinations of sounds in transmission -- you can understand something from those words, because you do the head work of finding the meaning in the transmission.

You get meaning from propositions and statements, but you don't get meaning from the real world items referred to when you talk. Things have no intrinsic meaning at all.

After flailing about with such classic questions as "what's the meaning of life?", one often gleans a roundabout question of a metaphysical nature about the purpose of things,  which is leads to answers from teleologically-minded people about the drive to pass on genes, reproduce what is, etc. This leads to...

Long answer: People should get laid often.

 

 

spin

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Meaning to life is a

Meaning to life is a grammatically correct sentence but an illogical question in itself.

 

Is there anything in one persons existance that brings happiness , for some people definitely  for others probably not

 

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phooney wrote:Create your

phooney wrote:

Create your own meaning.  Smiling

Exactly. Religion is for people that are too scared, lazy or naive to make their own meaning, so they let others make it for them.

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


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I don't know.

I don't know.


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My meaning is to kick people

My meaning is to kick people in the shin when they use my avatar.


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godisgoneonhoneymoon wrote:I

godisgoneonhoneymoon wrote:

I have a simple and direct question. Is there any meaning in this world including the humanity itself?

I have a simple and direct answer. No.

After eating an entire bull, a mountain lion felt so good he started roaring. He kept it up until a hunter came along and shot him.

The moral: When you're full of bull, keep your mouth shut.
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godisgoneonhoneymoon wrote:I

godisgoneonhoneymoon wrote:

I have a simple and direct question. Is there any meaning in this world including the humanity itself?

In this world? Is there another? I'm guessing by 'world', you mean existence.

 

The meaning of humanity is...drum roll...umm...humanity exists for the moment.

Does bacteria have meaning?

Do you mean does humanity have a purpose?

People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.


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aiia wrote:Do you mean does

aiia wrote:

Do you mean does humanity have a purpose?

Yes, it does. And that purpose is to send small, unmarked bills to:

 

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nigelTheBold wrote:aiia

nigelTheBold wrote:

aiia wrote:

Do you mean does humanity have a purpose?

Yes, it does. And that purpose is to send small, unmarked bills to:

OK. But first will you pay them?

 

 

spin

 

nigelTheBold wrote:
nigelTheBold

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godisgoneonhoneymoon wrote:I

godisgoneonhoneymoon wrote:

I have a simple and direct question. Is there any meaning in this world including the humanity itself?

Eat good food. Work some, play some, and rest some. Thirst for knowledge and adventure. Laugh everyday.

Oh, and getting laid is not a bad idea either.

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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spin wrote:nigelTheBold

spin wrote:

nigelTheBold wrote:

aiia wrote:

Do you mean does humanity have a purpose?

Yes, it does. And that purpose is to send small, unmarked bills to:

OK. But first will you pay them?

 

ROTF

 

As was alluded to above, the only meaning must be made by the individual seeking it.

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Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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Yes, there is meaninhg in

Yes, there is meaninhg in the world - inside the the minds of anything that thinks. It is how they interpret the their experiences....

Of course it will probably vary from individual to individual.

The question itself has no meaning outside the context of something that thinks...

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

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.

godisgoneonhoneymoon wrote:

I have a simple and direct question. Is there any meaning in this world including the humanity itself?

The short answer is no.

The long answer is us social species have a natural interest in, What did he mean by that? We do not ask what animals mean. We do not ask what the wind means.

But as soon as a thinking creature causes things we ask what that creature, a god if you will, means by that.

A natural disaster and an act of god are entirely different things. The former is not expected to mean anything. That latter is expected to have meaning.

And then of course we confuse the two. When cattle bunch together it means a storm is coming. From that confusion comes searching for meaning in everything and we get a belief in omen -- mantricism I think it is called. The bible is filled with it both implicitly and explicitly. Lose a war and it means god is pissed. That is no different from reading chicken entrails.

That is the bottom line looking for meaning in the world. You are trying to read chicken entrails. It is a very primitive thing to do.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

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.

godisgoneonhoneymoon wrote:

I have a simple and direct question. Is there any meaning in this world including the humanity itself?

What do you mean by that question?


 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

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Yes, life has meaning.You

Yes, life has meaning.

You could come close to formulating it in common language and although I probably am not literate enough to succeed, I will try.

Try thinking about yourself as a 80 year old man or woman, respectively, whose life is just about to end. There is no tomorrow and no personal improvement scheme occupies your mind, since you know it ends here. Thinking this way, there is a brief moment in which you come into perfect focus, like an entity able to evaluate the key moments of your life with a kind of 'a-ha' clarity.

You may recognize this phenomenon as catharsis and while it is related, there is an obvious difference - this one has no element of pretention or expectation in future life.

In fact, if you take Christianity, it sort of has an element of this in the concept of Heaven and Hell. Assuming there is no consciousness after death, and there was nothing before birth, there is nothing else, therefore life is all there is for you. If this life gains a defining moment at any point, this moment might become your personal eternity - there is nothing else. The result of your evaluation decides whether your defining moment will be Heaven or Hell, quite literally.

Obviouslly, I have no clue how this will turn out in the last moments of my life, because the exercise that I engage in is just that - an exercise with a point grounded in my expectation of continued life. I have made some pretty tough decisions asking myself how I would feel about it as a dying 80-year old, but I have no guarantee that any of those will be taken into account. You will know why if you succeed in this exercise, I am always surprised with what I think and the resolution I gain in the moments after this consideration. Actually, it is a mystery to me how things I thought were alpha and omega fade away, while other aspects I never even paid attention to come into sharp focus as all-important.

There are other 'a-ha' experiences you yourself probably can relate to, from professional life, academics, or just life experience; these moments when everything falls into place and you are dead certain about everything, even though unable to grasp all of it or retain this feeling in any form. Yet, somehow you become richer.

Feel free to think this is bogus stuff with no real effect, but every time you feel the urge to ask a question about meaning, you are giving yourself a clue. I certainly feel I have gained from it.

Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence.


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ZuS wrote:Try thinking

ZuS wrote:
Try thinking about yourself as a 80 year old man or woman, respectively, whose life is just about to end. There is no tomorrow and no personal improvement scheme occupies your mind, since you know it ends here. Thinking this way, there is a brief moment in which you come into perfect focus, like an entity able to evaluate the key moments of your life with a kind of 'a-ha' clarity.

 

And then you such your first cock and it turns out that you love it!

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Answers in Gene Simmons

Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:

ZuS wrote:
Try thinking about yourself as a 80 year old man or woman, respectively, whose life is just about to end. There is no tomorrow and no personal improvement scheme occupies your mind, since you know it ends here. Thinking this way, there is a brief moment in which you come into perfect focus, like an entity able to evaluate the key moments of your life with a kind of 'a-ha' clarity.

 

And then you such your first cock and it turns out that you love it!

 

AwEsOmE

Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence.


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godisgoneonhoneymoon wrote:I

godisgoneonhoneymoon wrote:

I have a simple and direct question. Is there any meaning in this world including the humanity itself?

The purpose of humans is living in harmony with oneself and the world and manifesting one's highest potential. That's it.

 

 

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 Why are we conflating

 Why are we conflating meaning with purpose? We're the only things that create meaning, at least that we know of. So yes, there is meaning, and it's created all the time by us. Is there just one meaning? For what?

The question is a shitty question, and always has been. You get responses that are largely normative, like "drink beer" or "get laid" that have nothing to do with answering the question, because it's a silly question. You can't get a positive response because there is none. It ranks highly among other shitty questions, like:

"What is the meaning of life?"

"What is the purpose of life?"

etc.

These are bad questions, and probably don't address what you really want to know. If you want advice on finding a feeling of worth and meaning in your life, then the question is "How do I find feelings of worth and meaning in my life?" not "Where's the meaning?" because the former actually addresses your problem, and the latter can't be answered.

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HisWillness wrote:

 Why are we conflating meaning with purpose? We're the only things that create meaning, at least that we know of. So yes, there is meaning, and it's created all the time by us. Is there just one meaning? For what?

Meaning can be created? What color is the dog house? Depends what color you paint it.

What does the world mean to me? to you? That is quite what is the meaning in of the world.

Otherwise, point well taken.

HisWillness wrote:
The question is a shitty question, and always has been. You get responses that are largely normative, like "drink beer" or "get laid" that have nothing to do with answering the question, because it's a silly question. You can't get a positive response because there is none. It ranks highly among other shitty questions, like:

"What is the meaning of life?"

"What is the purpose of life?"

etc.

42. No. 46.
HisWillness wrote:
These are bad questions, and probably don't address what you really want to know. If you want advice on finding a feeling of worth and meaning in your life, then the question is "How do I find feelings of worth and meaning in my life?" not "Where's the meaning?" because the former actually addresses your problem, and the latter can't be answered.

Why is it people get interested in finding meaning or purpose? What does it add?

Knowing when the birds fall silent it means there is a hungry predator in the area is a very good meaning of bird silence to have learned. Knowing a flock of birds fighting in the bushes means they are fighting over berries is also a good thing to know. The world is filled with valuable things to know.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

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HisWillness wrote:The

HisWillness wrote:

The question is a shitty question, and always has been. You get responses that are largely normative, like "drink beer" or "get laid" that have nothing to do with answering the question, because it's a silly question. You can't get a positive response because there is none.

Actually, if we grant ourselves meaning and purpose, then "drink beer" and "get laid" answer the question perfectly (just like every conceivable response, hehe).

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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butterbattle

butterbattle wrote:

HisWillness wrote:

The question is a shitty question, and always has been. You get responses that are largely normative, like "drink beer" or "get laid" that have nothing to do with answering the question, because it's a silly question. You can't get a positive response because there is none.

Actually, if we grant ourselves meaning and purpose, then "drink beer" and "get laid" answer the question perfectly (just like every conceivable response, hehe).

Which is why there is no inherent meaning or purpose. Any meaning or purpose you decide on for yourself is gone as soon as you change your mind (or rather, it changes you...) or you die. If you wait long enough there won't be any thinking beings to create meaning or purpose. Weather there is meaning or purpose now, as defined in this sense, is rather dependent on weather or not we truly think for ourselves, which I sorrowfully say is probably the latter.

That my friends, is the grand illusion.

After eating an entire bull, a mountain lion felt so good he started roaring. He kept it up until a hunter came along and shot him.

The moral: When you're full of bull, keep your mouth shut.
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HisWillness wrote:Why are we

HisWillness wrote:
Why are we conflating meaning with purpose? We're the only things that create meaning, at least that we know of. So yes, there is meaning, and it's created all the time by us. Is there just one meaning? For what?

The question is a shitty question, and always has been. You get responses that are largely normative, like "drink beer" or "get laid" that have nothing to do with answering the question, because it's a silly question. You can't get a positive response because there is none. It ranks highly among other shitty questions, like:

"What is the meaning of life?"

"What is the purpose of life?"

etc.

These are bad questions, and probably don't address what you really want to know. If you want advice on finding a feeling of worth and meaning in your life, then the question is "How do I find feelings of worth and meaning in my life?" not "Where's the meaning?" because the former actually addresses your problem, and the latter can't be answered.

Such kind of questions is actually very important, because the answers are not arbitrary. You can set your meaning as you want, but you know that it won't be good for other people. We are in several big global crises, just because we don't know the answers or we don't behave according to them. The right human relationships will allow us to live in harmony together and reach everyone's highest potential, this is why we want the answers so much. It's rational. Ignorance is dangerous, and ignorance about this is the most dangerous.
We don't have the right human relationships, because we don't know who we are, we don't know why are we here and what we want our future to be. We don't know who our fellow man is, so we can be harmful towards him, and we often are. We're psychologically, economically, lawfully, and religionally separated from each other, and it causes us harm. This signifies a wrong answer. The purpose of life is not to be separated, quite opposite. No man is an island. "Drink beer" or "get laid" are not correct answers either. These things are not wrong, but they bring no solution. How will we recognize a correct answer? If it will allow us to live together in harmony and reach our highest potential, then it is the correct answer.

The correct answer is, what Mark, a.k.a. I AM AS GOD AS YOU proclaimed by his very nickname, and also what esoteric teachings emphasizes very much. I am as God as you. We are the gods. There is no real difference between God, nature and humanity. There is no God besides us. It's all the same thing. The religional notion of God is just a bogy-man for bronze age nomads. We already are innately potentially divine. We must recognize that potential divinity in others and help them to realize it, this will help to realize our own divinity. This is the art of Self-realization. It begins with self-respect.

It inevitably means to take the care for others as our global priority of all nations. It's absolutely unacceptable to let other gods like us live in misery and starvation, when we have much more than we need. Saving ourselves from this great crime will give back our self-respect, it will change the way how do we see ourselves (Self-awareness), and finally, we develop the Self-realization.  (btw, this is why I value activism and activists so much )

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spike.barnett wrote:Which is

spike.barnett wrote:

Which is why there is no inherent meaning or purpose. Any meaning or purpose you decide on for yourself is gone as soon as you change your mind (or rather, it changes you...) or you die.

This doesn't matter, if you change your mind and there is new purpose, there is purpose. Birth and death are just abstract delimiters for your own personal eternity - you will never notice them. You are forever alive in this sense, while there always is purpose. If you think you lack purpose, your purpose is to find the purpose. If you think this purpose sucks, maybe read some people who think they might be on to something and go at it from there. If the most believable people are rather bleak in their outlook, come talk to me again.

spike.barnett wrote:

If you wait long enough there won't be any thinking beings to create meaning or purpose. That my friends, is the grand illusion.

If you wait that long, you will be dead, right? Otherwise there would be a thinking being - namely you. Having passed the abstract delimiter, the purpose won't matter any longer for any thinking being, since it is out of anyone's scope of eternity. World without santient life has perfect meaning - just enough for the present degree of santience, which is none.

spike.barnett wrote:

Weather there is meaning or purpose now, as defined in this sense, is rather dependent on weather or not we truly think for ourselves, which I sorrowfully say is probably the latter.

I am not sure I understand this with deterministic nature of the world, I might be misunderstanding. This not-thinking-for-ourselves having to do with whether we have a purpose, are you suggesting we live in a predetermined universe or something?

Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence.


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godisgoneonhoneymoon wrote:I

godisgoneonhoneymoon wrote:

I have a simple and direct question. Is there any meaning in this world including the humanity itself?

You and everyone else:

http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/16746

 


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marcusfish

marcusfish wrote:

godisgoneonhoneymoon wrote:

I have a simple and direct question. Is there any meaning in this world including the humanity itself?

You and everyone else:

http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/16746

Also, FYI, this question is neither simple nor direct.


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ZuS wrote:spike.barnett

ZuS wrote:

spike.barnett wrote:

Weather there is meaning or purpose now, as defined in this sense, is rather dependent on weather or not we truly think for ourselves, which I sorrowfully say is probably the latter.

I am not sure I understand this with deterministic nature of the world, I might be misunderstanding. This not-thinking-for-ourselves having to do with whether we have a purpose, are you suggesting we live in a predetermined universe or something?

I wouldn't use the term pre-determined, but I would say deterministic. Our thoughts appear to be the direct result of chemical and electrical interactions. If this is true they would construct a causal chain and would be out of our control (in fact we wouldn't have any control at all). Are you suggesting there is more to it?

After eating an entire bull, a mountain lion felt so good he started roaring. He kept it up until a hunter came along and shot him.

The moral: When you're full of bull, keep your mouth shut.
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phone wrote:Create your own

phone wrote:

Create your own meaning.  Smiling

EXC wrote:

Exactly. Religion is for people that are too scared, lazy or naive to make their own meaning, so they let others make it for them.

Uhm we don't "make"/"create" our own meaning of life. To say that life has meaning, is similar to saying broccoli taste good. In that it's not by my will that broccoli taste good or not, if I don't like the taste of broccoli, I can't snap my fingers, and wave a wand and tell the vegetable to taste good the second time around, and have it taste good.

We find meaning, we don't make it. 

If I say that I don't find life to be meaningful, the best one could say that there's possibly some avenue that you haven't explored that you might find meaningful, but it would silly to tell the fellow to make his own meaning, is if he could will himself to make playing Halo the meaning of his life. 

Meaning is an instinctual response, to a stimuli that has the ability to illicit that response in us, it's not decided by our will, nor can it be created or made. 

 


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My answer would be

My answer to you would be such:

Participate in the human condition.  Improve it, if doing so makes you feel good.  Act empathetically to relate to others with maximum results and thereby perhaps add their experiences to yours, thus vicariously experiencing/ learning about possibilities which are not at your current disposal.  Make meaningful connections in order to gain self-confidence.  Read, love, and argue often because that's what life's all about.  Hope the forum appreciates my two bits.


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MijitB wrote:My answer to

MijitB wrote:

My answer to you would be such:

Participate in the human condition.  Improve it, if doing so makes you feel good.  Act empathetically to relate to others with maximum results and thereby perhaps add their experiences to yours, thus vicariously experiencing/ learning about possibilities which are not at your current disposal.  Make meaningful connections in order to gain self-confidence.  Read, love, and argue often because that's what life's all about.  Hope the forum appreciates my two bits.

I certainly appreciate that. It seems to be a more expanded idea of what I unnoticedly meant a few posts ago.
Seriously, the meaning of life is not a tabula rasa, where we can make up anything. For us, humanity, there are some choices which leads to development, and some choices which doesn't lead to development. The sense of life is simply found among the choices leading to development.


 

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spike.barnett wrote:ZuS

spike.barnett wrote:

ZuS wrote:

spike.barnett wrote:

Weather there is meaning or purpose now, as defined in this sense, is rather dependent on weather or not we truly think for ourselves, which I sorrowfully say is probably the latter.

I am not sure I understand this with deterministic nature of the world, I might be misunderstanding. This not-thinking-for-ourselves having to do with whether we have a purpose, are you suggesting we live in a predetermined universe or something?

I wouldn't use the term pre-determined, but I would say deterministic. Our thoughts appear to be the direct result of chemical and electrical interactions. If this is true they would construct a causal chain and would be out of our control (in fact we wouldn't have any control at all). Are you suggesting there is more to it?

Yup, I am suggesting there is more to it. Just taking it form dual nature of all matter, particle and wave, one of these being statistical rather than deterministic, everything is beyond determined at this point. Many things that are actual established science are very hard to wrap your head around, I don't see why it should be different with nature of the universe and our thought. I see why someone wold think that thought precess is deterministic, just like I can see why someone would think the sun revolves around the earth, if no alternative explanation exists.

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The Hagakure says: "Many

The Hagakure says:

 

"Many people let the present moment pass them by while they are looking for the meaning of life without ever realizing that the passing moments are their lives"

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ZuS wrote: Yup, I am

ZuS wrote:

Yup, I am suggesting there is more to it. Just taking it form dual nature of all matter, particle and wave, one of these being statistical rather than deterministic, everything is beyond determined at this point. Many things that are actual established science are very hard to wrap your head around, I don't see why it should be different with nature of the universe and our thought. I see why someone wold think that thought precess is deterministic, just like I can see why someone would think the sun revolves around the earth, if no alternative explanation exists.

It's not a matter of a lack of alternatives. There are in fact alternatives for quantum mechanics. You seem to subscribe to the Copenhagen interpretation, while I subscribe to the Bohm interpretation. At this point it's nothing more than speculation as they are empirically equivalent.  What it really comes down to is weather or not there is randomness in the universe. If there isn't then everything is strictly deterministic. I'm not a believer in a cosmic dice game.

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Gauche wrote:The Hagakure

Gauche wrote:

The Hagakure says:

"Many people let the present moment pass them by while they are looking for the meaning of life without ever realizing that the passing moments are their lives"

Oh Hagakure, you are so wise in the ways of awesome.

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HisWillness wrote:Gauche

HisWillness wrote:

Gauche wrote:

The Hagakure says:

"Many people let the present moment pass them by while they are looking for the meaning of life without ever realizing that the passing moments are their lives"

Oh Hagakure, you are so wise in the ways of awesome.

I am but a traveler on the road to awesomeness as I can see you are as well. So I'm sure you know that the path of the awesome man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of un-awesome men.

Seriously though it is kind of an awesome book. I remember when I first read it I was moving to a new city and I had this roommate that was an mma fighter who was really into it. He could talk about that shit for hours. I Think in his mind he really thought of himself as being like a samurai in some way, which is kind of weird.

I can't believe how many times I said awesome in this post.

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Gauche wrote:The Hagakure

Gauche wrote:

The Hagakure says:

 "Many people let the present moment pass them by while they are looking for the meaning of life without ever realizing that the passing moments are their lives"

 

Well, such word though sounding deep, are not as impressive when they're probed.

 

It assumes that what one is passing by in his every day life, is meaningful to him, rather than understanding that it is exactly because he finds his every day life unfulfilling and meaningless that he attempts pursue the meaning of life elsewhere.

 

He hasn't found his ultimate concern in his life, and finding it, is more important to him than the moments of his unfulfilling life that passes him by.  


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spike.barnett wrote:ZuS

spike.barnett wrote:

ZuS wrote:

Yup, I am suggesting there is more to it. Just taking it form dual nature of all matter, particle and wave, one of these being statistical rather than deterministic, everything is beyond determined at this point. Many things that are actual established science are very hard to wrap your head around, I don't see why it should be different with nature of the universe and our thought. I see why someone wold think that thought precess is deterministic, just like I can see why someone would think the sun revolves around the earth, if no alternative explanation exists.

It's not a matter of a lack of alternatives. There are in fact alternatives for quantum mechanics. You seem to subscribe to the Copenhagen interpretation, while I subscribe to the Bohm interpretation. At this point it's nothing more than speculation as they are empirically equivalent.  What it really comes down to is weather or not there is randomness in the universe. If there isn't then everything is strictly deterministic. I'm not a believer in a cosmic dice game.

No, I don't actually. The idea that some wave function should collaps and become decided at the moment I looked at it and just because I looked at it, is pretty silly to me. The whole cat-in-the-box is neither alive nor dead is so non-intuitive, that you would be compelled to look and try to experience further. But this is beside the point.

The point is that we don't have experiences that would allow us understanding of any of it 'correctly' at the moment. There is no reason what so ever to subscribe to Bohm rather than Bohr, other than that feeling you have, a sort of intuition that this world makes more sense. If this in turn produces a constrained interpretation of reality, since deterministic translates into no choice of our own, you are gearing your world according to futile misunderstood technicalities, like trying to cross the Pacific hanging on to a toothpick as a flotation device.

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'Meaning' of life is

'Meaning' of life is intrinsically subjective to the individual mind, it has no 'meaning' outside the context of the individual consiousness.

Searching directly and explicitly for 'meaning' as such is almost bound to be unsuccessful. It is only by searching for what pursuits, activities, studies, whatever, that one finds most fulfilling, satisfying, rewarding, or otherwise engender such positive feelings or emotions, in the deepest sense, that one can cultivate a sense of 'meaning' or purpose in one's life. In this sense the 'Hakakure' quote is very insightful.

There is a pale substitute (IMHO) for personal meaning and purpose that many seek to find in serving the purposes of some other being, usually the object of devotion, either some real person or an imagined supernatural entity. Some may find such borrowed meaning ok, and maybe it is better than nothing, if they can find no other more direct way to imbue their life with a sense of purpose and accomplishment.

 

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theacrobat wrote:It assumes

theacrobat wrote:
It assumes that what one is passing by in his every day life, is meaningful to him, rather than understanding that it is exactly because he finds his every day life unfulfilling and meaningless that he attempts pursue the meaning of life elsewhere.

I think you got it. It's not particularly profound, but it is an unfortunate assessment of some people's tendency to attempt escape from their unfulfilling lives instead of changing them.

theacrobat wrote:
He hasn't found his ultimate concern in his life, and finding it, is more important to him than the moments of his unfulfilling life that passes him by. 

Pretty sure that's projection, but don't think I can't understand the sentiment. It's difficult to find a collection of fulfilling activities that can make life seem "meaningful". True enough. 

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I have a saying that I

I have a saying that I express to all my friends.  "The only thing life can guarantee is death and dissapointment."
 

Keep in mind that I am considered a nihlist, so no, we have no purpose in life nor do we have some pre-guided fate. 


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Damon Fillman wrote:Keep in

Damon Fillman wrote:
Keep in mind that I am considered a nihlist...
Oh, hahaha!  I needed a good laugh.  Thanks!

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I just thought it was funny

I just thought it was funny that the person said "I have a straightforward question. What's the meaning of life?" I've clearly been out of circulation too long. A straightforward question used to be something like "do you want fries with that?"

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ZuS wrote:spike.barnett

ZuS wrote:

spike.barnett wrote:

It's not a matter of a lack of alternatives. There are in fact alternatives for quantum mechanics. You seem to subscribe to the Copenhagen interpretation, while I subscribe to the Bohm interpretation. At this point it's nothing more than speculation as they are empirically equivalent.  What it really comes down to is weather or not there is randomness in the universe. If there isn't then everything is strictly deterministic. I'm not a believer in a cosmic dice game.

No, I don't actually. The idea that some wave function should collaps and become decided at the moment I looked at it and just because I looked at it, is pretty silly to me. The whole cat-in-the-box is neither alive nor dead is so non-intuitive, that you would be compelled to look and try to experience further. But this is beside the point.

The point is that we don't have experiences that would allow us understanding of any of it 'correctly' at the moment. There is no reason what so ever to subscribe to Bohm rather than Bohr, other than that feeling you have, a sort of intuition that this world makes more sense. If this in turn produces a constrained interpretation of reality, since deterministic translates into no choice of our own, you are gearing your world according to futile misunderstood technicalities, like trying to cross the Pacific hanging on to a toothpick as a flotation device.

Fair enough. I agree to your point that I am in no position to make a claim to knowledge, but you're in no better a position than I. I am somewhat relieved that you view it as objective. The idea that waveforms collapse just because we looked at them always seemed narcissistic to me. What are your thoughts on entanglement and locality?

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Damon Fillman wrote:I have a

Damon Fillman wrote:

I have a saying that I express to all my friends.  "The only thing life can guarantee is death and dissapointment."
 

Keep in mind that I am considered a nihlist, so no, we have no purpose in life nor do we have some pre-guided fate. 

You can not have dissapointment without expectation, expectation without preference, preference without choice. Look at your choices and see if you can expand them in such a way that your expectations can be satisfied.

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ZuS wrote:You can not have

ZuS wrote:

You can not have dissapointment without expectation, expectation without preference, preference without choice. Look at your choices and see if you can expand them in such a way that your expectations can be satisfied.

Interesting decomposition there. Hadn't thought of it that way before. Hmmm...

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spike.barnett wrote:ZuS

Apologies in advance for another derailment:

spike.barnett wrote:

ZuS wrote:

Yup, I am suggesting there is more to it. Just taking it form dual nature of all matter, particle and wave, one of these being statistical rather than deterministic, everything is beyond determined at this point. Many things that are actual established science are very hard to wrap your head around, I don't see why it should be different with nature of the universe and our thought. I see why someone wold think that thought precess is deterministic, just like I can see why someone would think the sun revolves around the earth, if no alternative explanation exists.

It's not a matter of a lack of alternatives. There are in fact alternatives for quantum mechanics. You seem to subscribe to the Copenhagen interpretation, while I subscribe to the Bohm interpretation. At this point it's nothing more than speculation as they are empirically equivalent.  What it really comes down to is weather or not there is randomness in the universe. If there isn't then everything is strictly deterministic. I'm not a believer in a cosmic dice game.

I think making a distinction between 'true' randomness and determinism is academic, since strictly deterministic non-linear (chaotic) feedback systems can approximate truly statistical randomness to any arbitrary degree. There is no way to distinguish between the two 'systems', and this is the background behind some 'hidden variable' proposals to 'explain' quantum indeterminacy.

The other way of looking at this is that tracing back any effect, whether a material event or effect, or a conscious decision, typically leads to an ever widening number of contributory 'causes', most only having a marginal effect, potentially involving every event or state of the environment within the light-speed event horizon for the elapsed time before the present. Such a sequence of interactions, even if strictly 'deterministic' is essentially unpredictable in any useful detail - the degree of uncertainty grows as one attempts to trace back the cause/effect further back. We can typically, from prior knowledge, set broad likelihoods on particular outcomes, which are always going to be constrained by physical or even psychological (in the case of 'choice') constraints, depending on our level of knowledge of the systems involved.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

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BobSpence1 wrote:I think

BobSpence1 wrote:

I think making a distinction between 'true' randomness and determinism is academic, since strictly deterministic non-linear (chaotic) feedback systems can approximate truly statistical randomness to any arbitrary degree. There is no way to distinguish between the two 'systems', and this is the background behind some 'hidden variable' proposals to 'explain' quantum indeterminacy.

The other way of looking at this is that tracing back any effect, whether a material event or effect, or a conscious decision, typically leads to an ever widening number of contributory 'causes', most only having a marginal effect, potentially involving every event or state of the environment within the light-speed event horizon for the elapsed time before the present. Such a sequence of interactions, even if strictly 'deterministic' is essentially unpredictable in any useful detail - the degree of uncertainty grows as one attempts to trace back the cause/effect further back. We can typically, from prior knowledge, set broad likelihoods on particular outcomes, which are always going to be constrained by physical or even psychological (in the case of 'choice') constraints, depending on our level of knowledge of the systems involved.

That's exactly my line of thought. It would be very difficult (impossible in my opinion) to distinguish between pseudo-random and random data. I also understand how random (or pseudo-random) behavior can add together to created predictable behavior. As long as it's bounded, it can act only in the ways allowed by those boundaries. What I don't understand is entanglement as it relates to non-locality. In my humble opinion it would make a lot more sense if the entangled pair's states were determined upon separation to be opposite, rather than determined upon measurement. Non-locality would seem to require instantaneous information transfer.

 

After eating an entire bull, a mountain lion felt so good he started roaring. He kept it up until a hunter came along and shot him.

The moral: When you're full of bull, keep your mouth shut.
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