Gaza: The answer to an atheist's prayer

A_Nony_Mouse
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Gaza: The answer to an atheist's prayer

What is the best way to spread atheism? Insist that Israel is the will of god. Insist the Jews who run Israel are acting as the Chosen People of god. Agree with everything the fundies insist is true and then point to Gaza to show what that means in practice.

I took the time to put together an atheist's presentation of the will of this god. http://www.giwersworld.org/antisem/GAZA-pics is what I could find. You can click on the Prime Minister's statement to see what he insists has to be taken into account to justify the main collection of images, what Israel claims to be the justification for the slaughter. I used everything I could find to illustrate the PM's desired offsets to the actions of the Chosen People on behalf of all Jews.

If this is not sufficient to sell the case of atheism I will have to work harder.

Tens of millions of born again rednecks in the US support anything Israel does. There are many times more Christian rednecks than Jewish rednecks. All support this slaughter.

This is the god of the West.

Use this god to promote atheism.

Why do we have to work when the crazies give us all this free material? Use it.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


darth_josh
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A_Nony_Mouse wrote:Why do we

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Why do we have to work when the crazies give us all this free material? Use it.

Amazing.

I was thinking the same thing. Except I have a different view of 'crazies'.

Trying to corroborate atheism with anti-semitism is morally reprehensible. Ethically unsound as well.

The belief system easily crumbles under scrutiny. The people are a different story. That's what it comes down to in my opinion. They are people FIRST, 'jewish' is further down the list of labels and is as inconsequential as blonde or brunette.

I noticed a decided lack of pictures regarding the damage and loss of life caused by the rocket attacks from Hamas. Why is that?

Regarding the destruction of the jewish faith, it is important to note that both Judaism and Islam are Abrahamic in alleged origin. I think you could spend a little more time examining the interrelation between Islam and Judaism as it pertains to Israel. That might be more productive than simply asking for a fatwah to be put on you.

 

 

 

 

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darth_josh

darth_josh wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
Why do we have to work when the crazies give us all this free material? Use it.

Amazing.

I was thinking the same thing. Except I have a different view of 'crazies'.

Trying to corroborate atheism with anti-semitism is morally reprehensible. Ethically unsound as well.

You know you are antisemitic when http://www.giwersworld.org/antisem/

Equating criticism of Israel with antisemitism is one of the most transparent propaganda ploys used in centuries. Israel does these things in the name of the Jews. Why is not the entire world antisemitic?

Calling a spade a spade is antisemitic when Israel is the spade.

What I find astonishing is that otherwise intelligent people fall for it.

darth_josh wrote:
The belief system easily crumbles under scrutiny. The people are a different story. That's what it comes down to in my opinion. They are people FIRST, 'jewish' is further down the list of labels and is as inconsequential as blonde or brunette.

Most Israelis are atheists or Muslims. Neither can be rationally considered "jewish" whatever that is supposed to mean outside the zionist propaganda machine.

http://www.giwersworld.org/antisem I noticed a decided lack of pictures regarding the damage and loss of life caused by the rocket attacks from Hamas. Why is that?

Every image I could find of this "damage" from rocket attacks is used. Do you have any others? I could juxtapose the severed head with an Israeli being treated for shock but that would be a bit over the top, don't you think?

Besides, the Israel is the criminal party to this conflict. That is sort of like expecting Britain to show the human side of the Third Reich by running pictures of the suffering in Dresden. Hamas is the lawfully elected government of Palestine. Israel's blockade of Gaza is an act of war. In the previous truce, which Israel broke on 5 Nov. 2008, required the blockade to cease. Israel refused to honor its word by ending the blockade. Israel wants land not peace. QED

All attacks on the occupying power are approved by the Geneva conventions. You can find the complete rationale here. http://www.giwersworld.org/israel/bombings.phtml Simply, Israel hides its military among its civilian population. The Geneva conventions make no distinction between on and off duty, active and reserve military nor does it exempt civilian services such as buses which are used by the military.

I have articles from ISRAELI newspapers quoting both its Attorney General and the Chief Justice of its Supreme Court stating Gaza, east Jerusalem, the West Bank and the Golan Heights are under belligerent occupation within the meaning of the international conventions of war to which Israel is a signatory. It is only the propaganda machine which denies what is a legal fact recognized by the government of Israel.

darth_josh wrote:
Regarding the destruction of the jewish faith, it is important to note that both Judaism and Islam are Abrahamic in alleged origin. I think you could spend a little more time examining the interrelation between Islam and Judaism as it pertains to Israel. That might be more productive than simply asking for a fatwah to be put on you.

The destruction of all religious faith is a good thing. Primitive, genital mutilating religions should be the first to go.

Abraham like Adam, Noah, Moses, David, Solomon are all myths as is biblical Israel and the idea the Judeans were ever monotheists.

The existence of Islam depends upon the existence of Judaism. Strike the root! Attack the ritual/taboo religion of Judaism and Islam goes with it as does Christianity and the LDS as an added bonus.

This supposed interrelation is really very simple.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back.

That is all anyone needs to know about the conflict.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


Dracos
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Jews

Why should we support the Jews?  Three superstitions have sprung from the myth of Abraham.  xianity was second, islime was third.  What is the difference.  Of the three islime is the most disgusting.  The Jews are civilized.  islimeites are savages.


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A_Nony_Mouse wrote:This

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

This supposed interrelation is really very simple.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back.

That is all anyone needs to know about the conflict.

Yeah, if you ignore the genetic evidence tying Jews to the area at a very early date, this is true.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/574370/posts

Of course if you actually care about evidence, the Jews have the same right to the area as do the Palestinians. Not that this matters if you are a racist neo-Nazi, but it is important to those of us that value facts and honesty.

It takes a village to raise an idiot.

Save a tree, eat a vegetarian.

Sometimes " The Majority " only means that all the fools are on the same side.


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Why are you shocked that

Why are you shocked that most people who read your posts accuse you of being anti-Semitic?

I haven't seen ONE thread topic you've created which didn't have something to do with Jews (in a negative sense).

 

Talk about something else, for once.

 

It's like most Atheist discussions already seemed to focus on Christianity way too much (at least that was more understandable, considering this is the religion most American Atheists have shoved down their throats...)  ...but now you just change the focus to the Jewish people. And that's all you talk about... incessantly.

 

What about the evils of other religions? Of other ethnic groups? Of other nations? Freshen things up a little bit, I mean... shit, you'd think you weren't even an Atheist...

In fact, many would think you were a Nazi.

All religion is bullshit. All wars are bullshit. All religious wars are definitely bullshit. Why not discuss the plethora of other relevant topics?


darth_josh
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A_Nony_Mouse

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

darth_josh wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
Why do we have to work when the crazies give us all this free material? Use it.

Amazing.

I was thinking the same thing. Except I have a different view of 'crazies'.

Trying to corroborate atheism with anti-semitism is morally reprehensible. Ethically unsound as well.

You know you are antisemitic when http://www.giwersworld.org/antisem/

Equating criticism of Israel with antisemitism is one of the most transparent propaganda ploys used in centuries. Israel does these things in the name of the Jews. Why is not the entire world antisemitic?

Calling a spade a spade is antisemitic when Israel is the spade.

What I find astonishing is that otherwise intelligent people fall for it.

 

No need to continue posting links to your site. I've already read it. In its entirety.

Read my remark again.

Equating atheism with anti-semitism is incorrect. One can be an atheist and not give a rat's candied ass about Israel, Judaism, or whatever conglomerate of the two that has fueled this obnoxiousness of yours.

Israel's foreign and domestic policy has very little to do with the religion itself.

The people want the same thing that everyone else wants. Safety, happiness, freedom.

 

anonymouse wrote:

darth_josh wrote:
The belief system easily crumbles under scrutiny. The people are a different story. That's what it comes down to in my opinion. They are people FIRST, 'jewish' is further down the list of labels and is as inconsequential as blonde or brunette.

Most Israelis are atheists or Muslims. Neither can be rationally considered "jewish" whatever that is supposed to mean outside the zionist propaganda machine.

And pray tell why I am supposed to read your site and not consider it propaganda as well?

 

anonymouse wrote:
darth_josh wrote:
I noticed a decided lack of pictures regarding the damage and loss of life caused by the rocket attacks from Hamas. Why is that?

Every image I could find of this "damage" from rocket attacks is used. Do you have any others? I could juxtapose the severed head with an Israeli being treated for shock but that would be a bit over the top, don't you think?

Your picture pages are woefully mislabeled then because you have them labeled as GAZA pics.

Sderot is far outside of Gaza. At least 4 miles.

Google it.

 

anonymouse wrote:
Besides, the Israel is the criminal party to this conflict. That is sort of like expecting Britain to show the human side of the Third Reich by running pictures of the suffering in Dresden.

People were just as shocked by that. However, to my knowledge no one has ever said it should not have been done. (Except for crazies)

 

anonymouse wrote:
Hamas is the lawfully elected government of Palestine. Israel's blockade of Gaza is an act of war. In the previous truce, which Israel broke on 5 Nov. 2008, required the blockade to cease. Israel refused to honor its word by ending the blockade. Israel wants land not peace. QED

Yet the rockets have still been flying during the entire time. Hamas has claimed responsibility for the rocket attacks. Hamas is in Gaza. And when Hamas is gone and replaced because the people are tired of their antics, another extremist group will buy rockets and continue to undermine ANY peaceful diplomatic solution.

Israel's blockade of Gaza would not be necessary if rocket parts weren't smuggled into the Gaza strip!

 

anonymouse wrote:
All attacks on the occupying power are approved by the Geneva conventions. You can find the complete rationale here. http://www.giwersworld.org/israel/bombings.phtml Simply, Israel hides its military among its civilian population. The Geneva conventions make no distinction between on and off duty, active and reserve military nor does it exempt civilian services such as buses which are used by the military.

The ultimate tu quoque. The last I checked. It was actually Hamas that hid among their women and children while Israel has a regular military. I think you should check for us though. That may be the only way you're ever going to figure out why this is happening.

When men set up mortars on top of buildings used for civilian services and fire shots into crowded cities of people miles away, you say it's okay according to the Geneva convention?

I suppose it's only okay if they then stow the mortar launcher underneath their child's bed and hide the ammunition in their wife's burqa drawer?

 

anonymouse wrote:
I have articles from ISRAELI newspapers quoting both its Attorney General and the Chief Justice of its Supreme Court stating Gaza, east Jerusalem, the West Bank and the Golan Heights are under belligerent occupation within the meaning of the international conventions of war to which Israel is a signatory. It is only the propaganda machine which denies what is a legal fact recognized by the government of Israel.

And I imagine it will stay so until the inhabitants of the Gaza strip quit firing rockets into cities indiscriminately.

Imagine for a moment, Mexico sends a rocket into Laredo, TX. First one is on us. Ooops they say. A week later. it's a bigger rocket and hits a water treatment facility. Damn it, stop that.

A month later, it's another one and it hits a school. The area gets blockaded and searched. If the people protest then they are obvously in support of the rocket attacks and are co-conspirators.

It continues.

All that is left is rendering the enemy impotent.

 

anonymouse wrote:

darth_josh wrote:
Regarding the destruction of the jewish faith, it is important to note that both Judaism and Islam are Abrahamic in alleged origin. I think you could spend a little more time examining the interrelation between Islam and Judaism as it pertains to Israel. That might be more productive than simply asking for a fatwah to be put on you.

The destruction of all religious faith is a good thing. Primitive, genital mutilating religions should be the first to go.

Abraham like Adam, Noah, Moses, David, Solomon are all myths as is biblical Israel and the idea the Judeans were ever monotheists.

The existence of Islam depends upon the existence of Judaism. Strike the root! Attack the ritual/taboo religion of Judaism and Islam goes with it as does Christianity and the LDS as an added bonus.

This supposed interrelation is really very simple.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back.

That is all anyone needs to know about the conflict.

 

If it truly were that simple then I would agree with you. However, you have misrepresented it.

There is a GIGANTIC difference between attacking a religion and enacting or enabling violence being done to the adherents of the religion.

I don't think you understand that by being a cheerleader for anti-semitism you are effectively making others pro-zionist by proxy.

 

You are fond of linking us to your site, a collection of your own type of op/ed pieces. I wonder if you have read other people's opinions?

I'm rather fond of this one:

Yes, it's anti-Semitism

 

 

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Dracos wrote:Why should we

Dracos wrote:
Why should we support the Jews?  Three superstitions have sprung from the myth of Abraham.  xianity was second, islime was third.  What is the difference.  Of the three islime is the most disgusting.  The Jews are civilized.  islimeites are savages.

This is civilized? http://www.giwersworld.org/antisem/GAZA-pics/index.html

From articles in Haaretz I gather about half of the real Jews in Israel have an active market in spells, curses and lifting same. Other than religion their customs are no different from the Arabs. You should not look at Hollywood. Rather look at real, observant Jews to see what Judaism is all about.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


Kevin R Brown
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Quote:This is civilized?

Yes, Anony. Quite.

The damage was done on the scale shown because of the technical superiority of the Israeli state. Gotta be a bitch when your wife-beating, child-stoning sorry ass only has sharpened sticks and the other guy has supersonic aircraft.

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


A_Nony_Mouse
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Carpe_Omnis wrote:Why are

Carpe_Omnis wrote:

Why are you shocked that most people who read your posts accuse you of being anti-Semitic?


Whatever gave you the idea I am shocked? It is standard procedure for people who stupidly consider themselves Jews even though atheists to dump on Christianity and whine about antisemitism when Judaism, a religion they pretend to have rejected, is given its turn in the barrel.
Carpe_Omnis wrote:
I haven't seen ONE thread topic you've created which didn't have something to do with Jews (in a negative sense). Talk about something else, for once.

Strike the root! Judaism is the cause of all the religions which impose upon the West. As I said, it is economy of effort.

I note there is no requirement for individuals to give equal time.

I note there is no call for those who dump on Islam to also dump on Judaism.

I note there is no call for those who dump on Christianity to also dump on Judaism.

So tell me why I should not concentrate upon the most neglected of these evils?

For my information, please tell me what is negative about pointing out the idea that a person can be born a Jew is based upon a precept of a religion that atheists reject? Why it is not valuable to point out atheists cannot be Jews and free the confused of that terrible burden?

Carpe_Omnis wrote:
It's like most Atheist discussions already seemed to focus on Christianity way too much (at least that was more understandable, considering this is the religion most American Atheists have shoved down their throats...)  ...but now you just change the focus to the Jewish people. And that's all you talk about... incessantly.

If those atheists would spend some of their time dumping on those genital mutilating savages there would be no point for me to give the root of all these evils the focus it has earned. I would have to look elsewhere for material not covered in these discussions. I spent a fair amount of time reading before posting. I identified a gaping hole in the discussion. I am endevouring to fill that hole.

As to the focus, I have only addressed Judaism and the people who follow Judaism, those of the Mosaic confession so to speak. I have been careful to point out atheists cannot be Jews. I have been careful to point out there is no such thing as a "jewish people" independent of the religion.

I cannot be focussing on the jewish people as there is no such thing. It is the invention of the political movement of Zionism. Jews are only followers of Judaism unless you claim Herzl received a special revelation from on high.

Carpe_Omnis wrote:
What about the evils of other religions? Of other ethnic groups? Of other nations? Freshen things up a little bit, I mean... shit, you'd think you weren't even an Atheist...

In fact, many would think you were a Nazi.

I agree most people are incapable of thinking. Most atheists are merely experimenting with something they think is fashionable or rebellious and will be back in the fold in a few years.

For decades there has been a rule in internet debate. The first one who says nazi has lost as he has exhausted all of his rational points.

Frankly I think the entire Nazi thing is way overdone http://www.giwersworld.org/antisem/nazi-israel/index.html don't you?

Carpe_Omnis wrote:
All religion is bullshit. All wars are bullshit. All religious wars are definitely bullshit. Why not discuss the plethora of other relevant topics?

I have a vast, untapped subject matter to illustrate the same points everyone else is making here. Why should I rehash all the old stuff when I can introduce new and powerful illustrative material?

Why do not you ask everyone else to make some posts dumping on Judaism?

It is laughable for an atheist to make a special pleading for Judaism or its adherents.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


A_Nony_Mouse
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Desdenova wrote:...Of course

Desdenova wrote:

...

Of course if you actually care about evidence, the Jews have the same right to the area as do the Palestinians. Not that this matters if you are a racist neo-Nazi, but it is important to those of us that value facts and honesty.

European invaders who drove out most of the Palestinians and stole the land of all of them whether driven out or not have no right in law or custom or even their own morality to any equality with the owners of the land. They are criminals. They stole the land. The owners want it back.

The owners have every right in law, custom and morality to use deadly force against the thieves.

Thieves have no rights at all.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Quote:European invaders who

Quote:

European invaders who drove out most of the Palestinians and stole the land of all of them whether driven out or not have no right in law or custom or even their own morality to any equality with the owners of the land. They are criminals. They stole the land. The owners want it back.

The owners have every right in law, custom and morality to use deadly force against the thieves.

Thieves have no rights at all.

.

I guess you should sign the deed to your house over to the native americans, then. Sticking out tongue

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


Desdenova
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A_Nony_Mouse wrote:Desdenova

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Desdenova wrote:

...

Of course if you actually care about evidence, the Jews have the same right to the area as do the Palestinians. Not that this matters if you are a racist neo-Nazi, but it is important to those of us that value facts and honesty.

European invaders who drove out most of the Palestinians and stole the land of all of them whether driven out or not have no right in law or custom or even their own morality to any equality with the owners of the land. They are criminals. They stole the land. The owners want it back.

The owners have every right in law, custom and morality to use deadly force against the thieves.

Thieves have no rights at all.

 

All well and good, except that you are plugging your ears and shouting " La La La, I can't here you! " when presented with genetic evidence of an ancient Jewish presence in the area.

It takes a village to raise an idiot.

Save a tree, eat a vegetarian.

Sometimes " The Majority " only means that all the fools are on the same side.


Kevin R Brown
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Quote:All well and good,

Quote:
All well and good, except that you are plugging your ears and shouting " La La La, I can't here you! " when presented with genetic evidence of an ancient Jewish presence in the area.

...That, and it's horeshit anyway.

NATO signed the land over to the Jews in the wake of WWII, when the displaced populace had essentially nowhere else to go (Germany was wholly destroyed; many thought at the time that it could never be reconstructed), and it's fairly questionable that anyone had any 'land rights' over Palestine at all. Borders in Europe were a rather fickle matter at that particular point in time.

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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Kevin R Brown wrote:

Kevin R Brown wrote:

Yes, Anony. Quite.

The damage was done on the scale shown because of the technical superiority of the Israeli state. Gotta be a bitch when your wife-beating, child-stoning sorry ass only has sharpened sticks and the other guy has supersonic aircraft.

Rather more disgusting when the local bully can only shore up his ego by beating up on a 98 lb weakling and bragging about it. They got their ass kicked in Lebanon a couple years ago but finally found someone weaker. And for a fact they did not achieve a single goal that was stated at the beginning of the massacre. Lowering goals to match accomplishments fools no one but themselves.

One would think it enough that Israel encourages the criminal squatters and its occupation troops to terrorize, rape and murder the Palestinians in the West Bank and East Jerusalem.

You would think they could find pride in outdoing apartheid South Africa by building highways for Jews only.

You would think they would find satisfaction from getting away with perverting democracy such that no political party can advocate equal rights for all the citizens of Israel.

You would expect raucous laughter in Tel Aviv for declaring itself a "jewish" state despite the fact the Orthodox, who have control over religious matters in Israel, do not consider either Conservative or Reform to be Jews.

You would think the world would notice the praise heaped upon the mass murderer Baruch Goldstein because he murdered only non-Jews.

You would think the world would notice when the Brits showed some spine and got the plaque praising the terrorists who bombed the King David Hotel watered down.

You would think the world would look at the terrorists who have been Prime Ministers and senior ministers of Israel and conclude terrorist is an Israeli codeword for statesman.

At the moment I have a small project coalating "religious" tracts the rabbis have given to Israel's military. They are a prescription for war crimes. This is the kind of religion that causes atheists to get sloppy as it is so easy.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


A_Nony_Mouse
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Kevin R Brown

Kevin R Brown wrote:

Quote:

European invaders who drove out most of the Palestinians and stole the land of all of them whether driven out or not have no right in law or custom or even their own morality to any equality with the owners of the land. They are criminals. They stole the land. The owners want it back.

The owners have every right in law, custom and morality to use deadly force against the thieves.

Thieves have no rights at all.

.

I guess you should sign the deed to your house over to the native americans, then. Sticking out tongue

Why is it fake atheists always pretend to be so stupid when it comes to Israel?

Every educated person knows the US has treaties with the Indians ceding the land and the Israelis have no treaties with the Palestinians ceding land. Educated people also know the Indians go to court to demand enforcement of the treaties.

Or are you fake atheist Zionists really as uneducated as you post?

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


A_Nony_Mouse
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Desdenova wrote:A_Nony_Mouse

Desdenova wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Desdenova wrote:

...

Of course if you actually care about evidence, the Jews have the same right to the area as do the Palestinians. Not that this matters if you are a racist neo-Nazi, but it is important to those of us that value facts and honesty.

European invaders who drove out most of the Palestinians and stole the land of all of them whether driven out or not have no right in law or custom or even their own morality to any equality with the owners of the land. They are criminals. They stole the land. The owners want it back.

The owners have every right in law, custom and morality to use deadly force against the thieves.

Thieves have no rights at all.

All well and good, except that you are plugging your ears and shouting " La La La, I can't here you! " when presented with genetic evidence of an ancient Jewish presence in the area.

Even if there were such evidence and it were valid, it does not confer land rights in this reality. No where is residence 2000 years ago recognized as a claim to any land any place. And when we know for a fact that the Palestinians are people whose ancestors were Jews and converted and who never left the absurdity of the Zionist claim is obvious even to a child.

Therefore I have no idea why you insist upon beating this dead horse.

Is it a neurotic compulsion with you?

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


A_Nony_Mouse
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Kevin R Brown

Kevin R Brown wrote:

Quote:
All well and good, except that you are plugging your ears and shouting " La La La, I can't here you! " when presented with genetic evidence of an ancient Jewish presence in the area.

...That, and it's horeshit anyway.

NATO signed the land over to the Jews in the wake of WWII,

NATO did not exist until 1948. You probably meant to say the UN. The land was not the UN's to give. Declaring a right to sovereignty is entirely separate from actual ownership of the land. Zionists pretend they are too stupid to understand there is a difference between sovereignty and ownership. Or maybe they really are too stupid to understand the difference.

Kevin R Brown wrote:
when the displaced populace had essentially nowhere else to go (Germany was wholly destroyed; many thought at the time that it could never be reconstructed),

They could have given the Jews Bavaria. Not only poetic justice but would not impose suffering and death upon a people who had nothing to do with WWII.

Kevin R Brown wrote:
and it's fairly questionable that anyone had any 'land rights' over Palestine at all. Borders in Europe were a rather fickle matter at that particular point in time.

While sovereignty was a complex issue with regard to the post-WWI remnants of the Ottoman Empire the issue of land ownership was quite simple and had been in use in the region for over a thousand years. The Palestinians owned it. Jews stole it. The owners want it back. There is nothing else anyone needs to know about the subject.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


pauljohntheskeptic
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A_Nony_Mouse wrote:Every

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Every educated person knows the US has treaties with the Indians ceding the land ...

These treaties came after the native Americans were decimated by superior weapons, alcohol, and treachery. You seem to know very little about native American Indians and the murderous wars of the white man to take the land. Look up Sand Creek Massacre for an example. See Here. Or how about Bear Valley. Or many others.

You go right ahead and try to justify the theft of Indian Lands by way of the treaties signed under duress.

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


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A_Nony_Mouse wrote:Why is it

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Why is it fake atheists always pretend to be so stupid when it comes to Israel?

Every educated person knows the US has treaties with the Indians ceding the land and the Israelis have no treaties with the Palestinians ceding land. Educated people also know the Indians go to court to demand enforcement of the treaties.

Or are you fake atheist Zionists really as uneducated as you post?

I'm sure the Native Americans just welcomed the settlers with open arms while being murdered and said here you go. You can have this land here and I'll live on a reservation. Not that it really matters though. Your ancestors residence does not give you claim over the land.

Answer me this. I have both Native American and settler ancestry with a majority being settler. Should I get to stay based on my Native American lineage or should I get exported as a land thief?

My point is that I wasn't alive for the injustice of the European land grab and I have no reason to be offended by it, just as I wouldn't expect Native Americans to start chucking grenades at me over it. Borders are a man made concept and only exist as long as someone is there to enforce them. Nobody has claim over any land apart from their personal dwelling and resources required for life.

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A_Nony_Mouse
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pauljohntheskeptic

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Every educated person knows the US has treaties with the Indians ceding the land ...

These treaties came after the native Americans were decimated by superior weapons, alcohol, and treachery. You seem to know very little about native American Indians and the murderous wars of the white man to take the land. Look up Sand Creek Massacre for an example. See Here. Or how about Bear Valley. Or many others.

You go right ahead and try to justify the theft of Indian Lands by way of the treaties signed under duress.

You must think I am as stupid as a zionist animal.

I am aware of the conditions under which the US gained those treaties. I am also fullyl aware those are reasonable grounds for invalidating the treaties.

That is why I added that when Indians go to court they sue for enforcement of the treaties. Their legal position is concurrance in the treaty.

I am aware of three or four lawsuits over the last few decades that did in fact seek invalidation of parts of treaties or codiciles to them. However the vast majority have been for enforcement. The largest one before the courts at the moments seeks several hundred billion in back payments for mineral rights administered by the US Government but not paid -- perhaps not even collected.

OTOH, every child should know the Jews have not one single treaty with the Palestinians. Absent any legal foundation the zionist animals do not have a leg to stand on.

Going beyond that, the world has progressed in the last century or at least changed.

One of the changes is that the acquisition of land by conquest is prohibited by international treaty. It is also a war crime to settled the citizens of the conquering country into such territory. People were hanged at Nuremberg for doing that. It is also a legal requirement upon the occupying power to administer the land solely for the benefit of the native population except as the necessities of war require.

The list of hanging offenses of these Jews is much longer. Some day I may get around to putting them all into one essay that I can cut and paste.

For the record the last instance in which one country conquered another country and then annexed it was Iraq invading Kuwait. Israel has formally annexed the Golan Heights and the old city of Jerusalem as well as territory east of the old city. Hanging offenses all.

You want to compare a different world two centuries ago with treaties with today without treaties and claim they are the same thing. You might do better arguing for the 19th c. standards of medical care.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


A_Nony_Mouse
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spike.barnett

spike.barnett wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Why is it fake atheists always pretend to be so stupid when it comes to Israel?

Every educated person knows the US has treaties with the Indians ceding the land and the Israelis have no treaties with the Palestinians ceding land. Educated people also know the Indians go to court to demand enforcement of the treaties.

Or are you fake atheist Zionists really as uneducated as you post?

I'm sure the Native Americans just welcomed the settlers with open arms while being murdered and said here you go. You can have this land here and I'll live on a reservation. Not that it really matters though. Your ancestors residence does not give you claim over the land.

Today we identify the treatment of the Indians as genocide in terms of the definitions of the international treaty against genocide. At least you are identifying the Jews as committing genocide.

spike.barnett wrote:
Answer me this. I have both Native American and settler ancestry with a majority being settler. Should I get to stay based on my Native American lineage or should I get exported as a land thief?

I suggest you look up the treaty which discusses your legal status and see for yourself. They were not all the same. The very fact of the existence of a treaty precludes you from being considered a land thief.

The Jews have no treaties from the Palestinians ceding land ownership to them. Therefore you are trying to talk apples and oranges.

spike.barnett wrote:
My point is that I wasn't alive for the injustice of the European land grab and I have no reason to be offended by it, just as I wouldn't expect Native Americans to start chucking grenades at me over it. Borders are a man made concept and only exist as long as someone is there to enforce them. Nobody has claim over any land apart from their personal dwelling and resources required for life.

The facts are that the Palestinians have never ceased to press their claims to their private property. They have always been in the business of chucking grenades at the thieves and the equally criminal holders in due course of the stolen property.

And here you pretend (or maybe you are not pretending) to know the difference between ownership of the land and sovereignty over the land. Just look at all the whining when the folks in Gaza were firing rockets at their own land. The fact that the Jews had built a segregated Jews-only town on that land makes it their own damned fault for being thieves.

Not many people are aware that most of the property laws in Israel would be banned as unconstitutional in the US. The Jews in Israel have imposed everything short of separate water fountains. They have separate but equal schools. Neighborhood committees with the power to ban non-Jews from residence. And when a Rosa Parks arises they murder her.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Quote:NATO did not exist

Quote:
NATO did not exist until 1948. You probably meant to say the UN. The land was not the UN's to give. Declaring a right to sovereignty is entirely separate from actual ownership of the land. Zionists pretend they are too stupid to understand there is a difference between sovereignty and ownership. Or maybe they really are too stupid to understand the difference.

You're correct in the technical sense, though I refer to the UN at that time and instance as NATO intentionally; they were, IMHO, essentially acting as a NATO body at that point in time (and I don't mean that in a positive way).

So what offers entitlement, then? You just claimed a few posts ago that it isn't heritage, and now it apparently isn't having a legal sanction backing you either. So what makes the land inherently Palestinian? The fact that it agree with your worldview?

Quote:
They could have given the Jews Bavaria. Not only poetic justice but would not impose suffering and death upon a people who had nothing to do with WWII.

Except that this idea doesn't take into account the zeitgeist of the time. Ultimately, this is how I knew you were a Holocaust Denier: unless you don't recognize how the Holocaust impacted the beliefs of Jews at the time, it's easy to miss why they were given sovereignty over Palestine.

Rightly or wrongly, after the 2nd world war, a large portion of the Jewish community had little trust of Europe for their safety. They had, afterall, just been abandoned to their fate at the hands of the Nazis (and, earlier, to the Soviets). They did not want to resettle Europe - they wanted their 'Holy Land' back, where they felt they could be sheltered away from the depredation of anti-semitism.

I will certainly agree that it was boneheaded of the UN to arbitrarily declare that the Jews should be given back Palestine while offering zero consideration for the people living there at the time, however, I can understand that decision in the framework of the time period. The world was very much still in 'Violence is a solution to all problems' mode, the west was much more concerned with the EVIL COMMUNISTS OF DOOM!!111!!11!!! to really give two shits about muslims they would be displacing and the Jews were just plain fed-up period.

Your 'theft' argument is ridiculous. The Jews were legally given the land by a third party, good decision or not, and the Labanese living there had no legal entitlement to it beforehand.

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
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A_Nony_Mouse
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Kevin R Brown

Kevin R Brown wrote:

Quote:
NATO did not exist until 1948. You probably meant to say the UN. The land was not the UN's to give. Declaring a right to sovereignty is entirely separate from actual ownership of the land. Zionists pretend they are too stupid to understand there is a difference between sovereignty and ownership. Or maybe they really are too stupid to understand the difference.

You're correct in the technical sense, though I refer to the UN at that time and instance as NATO intentionally; they were, IMHO, essentially acting as a NATO body at that point in time (and I don't mean that in a positive way).

So what offers entitlement, then? You just claimed a few posts ago that it isn't heritage, and now it apparently isn't having a legal sanction backing you either. So what makes the land inherently Palestinian? The fact that it agree with your worldview?

What do you mean entitlement? Land is inherently nothing but dirt and rock. It is neither Palestinian nor Jewish (unless I missed the Bris) nor LDS for that matter.

There are only two issues here. Actual ownership of the land in accordance with the laws of the land at the time. That means the right to quiet possession, the right to use of the land and the right to sell the land. In this case the INDIVIDUAL Palestinians owned it. In this regard the tired zionist claim they did not own it has been been exposed as a lie so many times by Jewish Israelis it would be boring should anyone repeat it.

The second issue is sovereignty which is not ownership. The government of Israel may claim sovereignty over the land but it does not own the land. The land was stolen under to color of law by the claim the property was abandoned. The theft is entailed in the murder of anyone who tried to return to his land usually having to dig their own graves which were left unmarked.

This is nothing new. Ilan Pappe, Tom Segev, Benny Morris, and Avi Shlaim among other Jewish Israelis have exposed the Israeli propaganda about 1947-48 as a total pack of lies from beginning to end.

Kevin R Brown wrote:
Quote:
They could have given the Jews Bavaria. Not only poetic justice but would not impose suffering and death upon a people who had nothing to do with WWII.

Except that this idea doesn't take into account the zeitgeist of the time. Ultimately, this is how I knew you were a Holocaust Denier: unless you don't recognize how the Holocaust impacted the beliefs of Jews at the time, it's easy to miss why they were given sovereignty over Palestine.

As the FACT of expelling the Palestinians and stealing their land was in writing and accepted Zionist policy from the early 1920s no rational person can thing WWII had anything to do with it unless they do not know the years of WWII -- which is far from unlikely these days. Terrorism by Jews against the Palestinians began in the 1920s. It continued through the 1930s when the Zionists collaborated with the Nazis to get German Jews into Palestine. Zionism was founded before Hitler was born. Jabotinsky formulated the policy of violence and expulsion and today's Likud Party declares itself to be the successor to his Revisionist movement.

As for real history, Jews were given sovereignty over only half of Palestine. They stepped up their terror campaigns before the ink was dry. They NEVER intended for the Palestinians to have any civil rights. If they did, the first election would have shitcanned all the zionist crap.

Sorry, but real history shows WWII is no more than propaganda as the reason for their crimes in Palestine. If you ever learn real history you will also learn that.

Kevin R Brown wrote:
Rightly or wrongly, after the 2nd world war, a large portion of the Jewish community had little trust of Europe for their safety. They had, afterall, just been abandoned to their fate at the hands of the Nazis (and, earlier, to the Soviets). They did not want to resettle Europe - they wanted their 'Holy Land' back, where they felt they could be sheltered away from the depredation of anti-semitism.

No one in his right mind who is beyond the idealism of childhood could ever imagine ever being safe on stolen land. No adult could possibly believe the Palestinians would move on and get over it.

Any rational adult would understand Palestine would forever be what it is, the most dangerous place in the world for a Jew to live.

I once observed there is an upside to Israel for the rest of the world. It attacts all the stupid Jews and the rest of the world gets the smart ones. I see nothing to contradict that observation.

Kevin R Brown wrote:
I will certainly agree that it was boneheaded of the UN to arbitrarily declare that the Jews should be given back Palestine while offering zero consideration for the people living there at the time, however, I can understand that decision in the framework of the time period. The world was very much still in 'Violence is a solution to all problems' mode, the west was much more concerned with the EVIL COMMUNISTS OF DOOM!!111!!11!!! to really give two shits about muslims they would be displacing and the Jews were just plain fed-up period.

It does not matter if it is understandable or not. It was not their's to give. That is the only issue of interest in the discussion. It was not their's to give.

So regardless of what the world was like in those days, the Palestinians have always reacted as do people who have been wronged. They kill. That is the way of the world.

And should you imagine it will be over soon, the Irish finally got back most of their island after four centuries. The Palestinians have yet to clock their first century.

Kevin R Brown wrote:
Your 'theft' argument is ridiculous. The Jews were legally given the land by a third party, good decision or not, and the Labanese living there had no legal entitlement to it beforehand.

As the land was taken under the pretext it was abandoned and as the terrorism and mass expulsions of the Palestinians is well documented by Israel's own records and as those who attempted to return, i.e. not abandon their land, were murdered, how does theft not fit the case?

Please be specific in your response.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


HisWillness
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Dracos wrote:Why should we

Dracos wrote:

Why should we support the Jews?  Three superstitions have sprung from the myth of Abraham.  xianity was second, islime was third.  What is the difference.  Of the three islime is the most disgusting.  The Jews are civilized.  islimeites are savages.

Oh, great. See, now I have to give you the same warning I gave A_Nony_Mouse:

Cut that out with the "savages". A_Nony_Mouse was doing the same thing with the word "animals" in the phrase "Zionist animals". Can we PLEASE discuss people as people?

Look, I know people do terrible things, so when we say "people", could we just assume that we're taking the bad with the good? Please, please, please do away with statements like "islimeites [sic] are savages" or you run the risk of appearing like an angry crazy person.

To answer your question, we're not really "supporting" the Jews, we're just not happy with people who attempt to make any group sound sub-human. Even when I've been critical of American foreign policy, my criticism has been of the government. Many places, like Iran, have entire populations that now wish (and you can see this in some of the movies that my Persian friends have shown me) that they could have a secular government instead of their ridiculous theocracy. That's not a criticism of the people of Iran. I wouldn't say, "Persians are terrible people", because I've met enough Persians to know that they're like the rest of us - some are nice, decent people, and some are assholes. That's the norm everywhere.

So when you categorize the people of Islam as "savages", it makes you look as foolish as A_Nony_Mouse calling people "animals".

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pauljohntheskeptic
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A_Nony_Mouse

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Every educated person knows the US has treaties with the Indians ceding the land ...

These treaties came after the native Americans were decimated by superior weapons, alcohol, and treachery. You seem to know very little about native American Indians and the murderous wars of the white man to take the land. Look up Sand Creek Massacre for an example. See Here. Or how about Bear Valley. Or many others.

You go right ahead and try to justify the theft of Indian Lands by way of the treaties signed under duress.

You must think I am as stupid as a zionist animal.

I am aware of the conditions under which the US gained those treaties. I am also fullyl aware those are reasonable grounds for invalidating the treaties.

That is why I added that when Indians go to court they sue for enforcement of the treaties. Their legal position is concurrance in the treaty.

I am aware of three or four lawsuits over the last few decades that did in fact seek invalidation of parts of treaties or codiciles to them. However the vast majority have been for enforcement. The largest one before the courts at the moments seeks several hundred billion in back payments for mineral rights administered by the US Government but not paid -- perhaps not even collected.

OTOH, every child should know the Jews have not one single treaty with the Palestinians. Absent any legal foundation the zionist animals do not have a leg to stand on.

Going beyond that, the world has progressed in the last century or at least changed.

One of the changes is that the acquisition of land by conquest is prohibited by international treaty. It is also a war crime to settled the citizens of the conquering country into such territory. People were hanged at Nuremberg for doing that. It is also a legal requirement upon the occupying power to administer the land solely for the benefit of the native population except as the necessities of war require.

The list of hanging offenses of these Jews is much longer. Some day I may get around to putting them all into one essay that I can cut and paste.

For the record the last instance in which one country conquered another country and then annexed it was Iraq invading Kuwait. Israel has formally annexed the Golan Heights and the old city of Jerusalem as well as territory east of the old city. Hanging offenses all.

You want to compare a different world two centuries ago with treaties with today without treaties and claim they are the same thing. You might do better arguing for the 19th c. standards of medical care.

 

 

I suggested you must not understand what occurred in the Indian Wars because of your statement that there were treaties which infers that it's OK. You say here that you understand they could be invalidated so I get that you are aware of the treachery that was involved. There have been court proceedings and lawsuits from the inception of nearly every treaty. In Florida where you live the issues are most related these days to gambling. Originally this was not the case. OTOH in the West there have been legal issues from the very beginning on everything from forced relocation, education in Native American culture, and countless violations by the US government.

A deceptive treaty obtained under duress, violence and genocide is held to be the legal foundation today and we are taught in our schools only one side of this, the winners.

My point here was to correct any errors you may have in understanding what occurred with Native Americans, I see you are aware of the treachery of the white man but choose to ignore it as it occurred long before you were born. 

 

 Have a good day.

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


A_Nony_Mouse
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HisWillness wrote:Dracos

HisWillness wrote:

Dracos wrote:

Why should we support the Jews?  Three superstitions have sprung from the myth of Abraham.  xianity was second, islime was third.  What is the difference.  Of the three islime is the most disgusting.  The Jews are civilized.  islimeites are savages./quote]

Oh, great. See, now I have to give you the same warning I gave A_Nony_Mouse:

Is that why showing pictures of things the Foreign Minister of Israel is proud of is considered hate? Since when can the truth be hate? How is that possible?

HisWillness wrote:
Cut that out with the "savages". A_Nony_Mouse was doing the same thing with the word "animals" in the phrase "Zionist animals". Can we PLEASE discuss people as people?

A courtesy not shown to Muslims. So what do you mean by "we"?

"Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly." Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization, speaking of the Arabs of Palestine,Complete Diaries, June 12, 1895 entry.

Is this planned ethnic cleansing what you consider to be human?

HisWillness wrote:
Look, I know people do terrible things, so when we say "people", could we just assume that we're taking the bad with the good? Please, please, please do away with statements like "islimeites [sic] are savages" or you run the risk of appearing like an angry crazy person.

Anyone believing that bible bullshit about Ishmaelites and Abraham and Moses and David and the rest of the myths is a crazy person, angry or not.

HisWillness wrote:
To answer your question, we're not really "supporting" the Jews, we're just not happy with people who attempt to make any group sound sub-human. Even when I've been critical of American foreign policy, my criticism has been of the government.

The US is a democracy. All the citizens of a democracy are responsible for the actions of their government. That was clearly expressed when all the Palestinians under occupation were punished for electing Hamas.

HisWillness wrote:
Many places, like Iran, have entire populations that now wish (and you can see this in some of the movies that my Persian friends have shown me) that they could have a secular government instead of their ridiculous theocracy. That's not a criticism of the people of Iran. I wouldn't say, "Persians are terrible people", because I've met enough Persians to know that they're like the rest of us - some are nice, decent people, and some are assholes. That's the norm everywhere.

If the Iranians have shown anything it is that they can overthrow a government. If they don't like it do something about it.

HisWillness wrote:
So when you categorize the people of Islam as "savages", it makes you look as foolish as A_Nony_Mouse calling people "animals".

Should they be called fruits?

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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I hate war. I really, really

I hate war. I really, really do.

But the Jewish religion aside, does anyone posting here actually have an in-depth, non-biased understanding of the conflict? The "Palestinians" are extremely devoted to "their rightful land". The Irsaelis live there now, it's their property. They're being bombed and threatened. They are constantly struggling to hold their own while the surrounding countries are constantly throwing rocks. No side is purely innocent, but I have to take the Israelis' for the most part.

No, I don't support the destruction of innocents, but I am not going to simply say that what Israel is doing is out of evil. They're being bombed. They constantly try to reason with the "Palestinians".

Seriously, though? You think Israel is bad? Jesus Christ we've been tearing Iraq apart, and at least the Israelis are defending themselves within reason, not just sticking their nose up someone's ass to locate imaginary missiles and "spread democracy".

 

*Our world is far more complex than the rigid structure we want to assign to it, and we will probably never fully understand it.*

"Those believers who are sophisticated enough to understand the paradox have found exciting ways to bend logic into pretzel shapes in order to defend the indefensible." - Hamby


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pauljohntheskeptic

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
pauljohntheskeptic wrote:


A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Every educated person knows the US has treaties with the Indians ceding the land ...

These treaties came after the native Americans were decimated by superior weapons, alcohol, and treachery. You seem to know very little about native American Indians and the murderous wars of the white man to take the land. Look up Sand Creek Massacre for an example. See Here. Or how about Bear Valley. Or many others.

You go right ahead and try to justify the theft of Indian Lands by way of the treaties signed under duress.

You must think I am as stupid as a zionist animal.

I am aware of the conditions under which the US gained those treaties. I am also fullyl aware those are reasonable grounds for invalidating the treaties.

That is why I added that when Indians go to court they sue for enforcement of the treaties. Their legal position is concurrance in the treaty.

I am aware of three or four lawsuits over the last few decades that did in fact seek invalidation of parts of treaties or codiciles to them. However the vast majority have been for enforcement. The largest one before the courts at the moments seeks several hundred billion in back payments for mineral rights administered by the US Government but not paid -- perhaps not even collected.

OTOH, every child should know the Jews have not one single treaty with the Palestinians. Absent any legal foundation the zionist animals do not have a leg to stand on.

Going beyond that, the world has progressed in the last century or at least changed.

One of the changes is that the acquisition of land by conquest is prohibited by international treaty. It is also a war crime to settled the citizens of the conquering country into such territory. People were hanged at Nuremberg for doing that. It is also a legal requirement upon the occupying power to administer the land solely for the benefit of the native population except as the necessities of war require.

The list of hanging offenses of these Jews is much longer. Some day I may get around to putting them all into one essay that I can cut and paste.

For the record the last instance in which one country conquered another country and then annexed it was Iraq invading Kuwait. Israel has formally annexed the Golan Heights and the old city of Jerusalem as well as territory east of the old city. Hanging offenses all.

You want to compare a different world two centuries ago with treaties with today without treaties and claim they are the same thing. You might do better arguing for the 19th c. standards of medical care.

I suggested you must not understand what occurred in the Indian Wars because of your statement that there were treaties which infers that it's OK. You say here that you understand they could be invalidated so I get that you are aware of the treachery that was involved. There have been court proceedings and lawsuits from the inception of nearly every treaty. In Florida where you live the issues are most related these days to gambling. Originally this was not the case. OTOH in the West there have been legal issues from the very beginning on everything from forced relocation, education in Native American culture, and countless violations by the US government.

I stated correctly that today the Indians support the treaties as written.

In Florida the issue is in fact the treaties themselves which give the tribes sovereign powers over affairs on the reservations. Where do you see they want the treaties overthrown instead of upheld?

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:
A deceptive treaty obtained under duress, violence and genocide is held to be the legal foundation today and we are taught in our schools only one side of this, the winners.

Now that you have identified the treatment of Palestinians as genocide how many tens of thousands of Jews need by hanged for this crime?

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:
My point here was to correct any errors you may have in understanding what occurred with Native Americans, I see you are aware of the treachery of the white man but choose to ignore it as it occurred long before you were born.

You pretend to teach me when your understanding it at the level of a teenage liberal. Is pomposity a word?

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:
Have a good day.

I always do.

Getting back to the subject, the land was not the UN's to give. In fact should you ever take the time to read UNSCR 181 you will see it ONLY addresses sovereignty not titled ownership of the land. Should you find additional time you may also read UNSCR 242 and find it reiterates that and requires the withdrawal from occupied territory.

The UN did NOT give the Jews anything but the opportunity to form a government in a limited area.

As usual, I am correct in this matter from both the legal and the international points of view. I strongly suggest you stop listening to jew propaganda about Israel.

As for the open admission of theft, is this not sufficient?

David Ben Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): "If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?" Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.

Notice the whack-job terrorist actually believes some god gave it to the Jews. Consider all the whack-jobs who believe the same thing.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

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www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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peppermint wrote:I hate war.

peppermint wrote:

I hate war. I really, really do.

But the Jewish religion aside, does anyone posting here actually have an in-depth, non-biased understanding of the conflict? The "Palestinians" are extremely devoted to "their rightful land". The Irsaelis live there now, it's their property. They're being bombed and threatened. They are constantly struggling to hold their own while the surrounding countries are constantly throwing rocks. No side is purely innocent, but I have to take the Israelis' for the most part.

I have given the only understanding anyone needs to have about the entire issue.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back.

Even David ben Gurion gave that as the explanation of the matter.

peppermint wrote:
No, I don't support the destruction of innocents, but I am not going to simply say that what Israel is doing is out of evil. They're being bombed. They constantly try to reason with the "Palestinians".

Why do you not consider murdering people to keep stolen property to be evil?

peppermint wrote:
Seriously, though? You think Israel is bad? Jesus Christ we've been tearing Iraq apart, and at least the Israelis are defending themselves within reason, not just sticking their nose up someone's ass to locate imaginary missiles and "spread democracy".

When the Mafia gets into a shootout with the FBI it can also claim it was only defending itself. In this case the Jews are the criminals for the land they stole and for the ethnic cleansing and for 60 years of state violence in support of those of the continuation of those crimes.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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A_Nony_Mouse wrote:Even if

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Even if there were such evidence and it were valid, it does not confer land rights in this reality. No where is residence 2000 years ago recognized as a claim to any land any place. And when we know for a fact that the Palestinians are people whose ancestors were Jews and converted and who never left the absurdity of the Zionist claim is obvious even to a child.

Therefore I have no idea why you insist upon beating this dead horse.

Is it a neurotic compulsion with you?

Well, except that there has been a Jewish presence in the area for the last several thousand years. The Assyrian king Shalmaneser III's black obelisk mentions a defeated Jewish king, Merneptah's stele mentions Israel, during the Persian period ' Yehud ' coins are minted in Judea featuring Solomonic art, the ark of the covenant, and mention of the Hebrew governor Hezekiah, Josephus mentions Alexander's visit to Jerusalem, Strabo and Tacitus write of them during Roman rule, Justinian was still finding them troublesome in the 5th century CE, they continued to control commerce in Palestine after their eviction from western Arabia by the Muslim's in the 7th century, defended Jerusalem against the Crusaders in 1099, resettled the old city of Jerusalem in 1267, and have maintained a constant population there ever since. At no time were all the Hebrew ever driven from the area.


Oh, and by the way. I finally got around to looking into your claims about Heorodotus. It was with great interest that I noticed he was only describing coastal cities. Here it is, in fact.

     " From the town of Posideion, which was founded by Amphilochis son of Amphiaraus, on the border between Cilicia and Syria, beginning fro this as far as Egypt-omitting Arabian territory, came 350 talents. In this province is the whole of Phoenicia and that part of Syria which is called Palestine and Cyprus. This is the fifth province."

And

     " 'The Phoenicians, with the Syrians of Palestine…have a tradition that in ancient times they lived on the Persian Gulf, but migrated to the Syrian coast, where they are found today. This part of Syria, together with the country which extends southward to Egypt, is all known as Palestine. "

When he mentions inland parts of the Near East, some of his descriptions are so far off the mark, such as with Babylon, that it is likely he never visited the area. Add to this that Herodotus never actually says that he visited there, and we are left to conclude that his familiarity ended with the coastal area of the Near East. With this in mind, it is no wonder that he never mentioned inland Judea or Israel.

I hope that you get over your sado-masochistic, neurotic Nazi compulsion with destroying the Jews soon. You only make yourself look like a frothing at the mouth fool, especially when you dabble in history, which is clearly not your area of expertise.

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Save a tree, eat a vegetarian.

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A_Nony_Mouse

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

I suggested you must not understand what occurred in the Indian Wars because of your statement that there were treaties which infers that it's OK. You say here that you understand they could be invalidated so I get that you are aware of the treachery that was involved. There have been court proceedings and lawsuits from the inception of nearly every treaty. In Florida where you live the issues are most related these days to gambling. Originally this was not the case. OTOH in the West there have been legal issues from the very beginning on everything from forced relocation, education in Native American culture, and countless violations by the US government.

I stated correctly that today the Indians support the treaties as written.

In Florida the issue is in fact the treaties themselves which give the tribes sovereign powers over affairs on the reservations. Where do you see they want the treaties overthrown instead of upheld?

Did I say even one word to indicate that Native Americans today wanted the treaties not supported? No. You infer that which was not said. 

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:
A deceptive treaty obtained under duress, violence and genocide is held to be the legal foundation today and we are taught in our schools only one side of this, the winners.

Now that you have identified the treatment of Palestinians as genocide how many tens of thousands of Jews need by hanged for this crime?

I did not mention even one single word in this thread regarding the Palestinians. My intent here was only in regard to the Native Americans and no more.

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:
My point here was to correct any errors you may have in understanding what occurred with Native Americans, I see you are aware of the treachery of the white man but choose to ignore it as it occurred long before you were born.

You pretend to teach me when your understanding it at the level of a teenage liberal. Is pomposity a word?

Again, I thank you for your generous assessment of my knowledge.

 

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:
Have a good day.

 

I always do.

Getting back to the subject, the land was not the UN's to give.

~rip~

 

 

~rip~

As none of my post to you had anything at all to do with Jews or Palestinians and only addressed your assessment of treaties with Native Americans none of your response regarding Israel was anything I care to discuss with you further. You have made it very clear in the other threads you believe you are correct in the views you hold regarding Israel and Jews in general. I see it as futile to discuss those subjects with you and so I did not do so. I understand your position on the treaties made between Native Americans and the US government in the 19th century which has been addressed.

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


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A_Nony_Mouse wrote:Kevin R

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Kevin R Brown wrote:

Quote:

European invaders who drove out most of the Palestinians and stole the land of all of them whether driven out or not have no right in law or custom or even their own morality to any equality with the owners of the land. They are criminals. They stole the land. The owners want it back.

The owners have every right in law, custom and morality to use deadly force against the thieves.

Thieves have no rights at all.

.

I guess you should sign the deed to your house over to the native americans, then. Sticking out tongue

Why is it fake atheists always pretend to be so stupid when it comes to Israel?

Every educated person knows the US has treaties with the Indians ceding the land and the Israelis have no treaties with the Palestinians ceding land. Educated people also know the Indians go to court to demand enforcement of the treaties.

Or are you fake atheist Zionists really as uneducated as you post?

I do so love being called a fake atheist because I don't want Israelis as dead as they and the Christians want Palestinians. I'm not a fan of seeing anyone dies wastefully and foolishly.

Don't you? Anony's as rabid on this cause as any fundy Muslim.

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jcgadfly wrote:I do so love

jcgadfly wrote:

I do so love being called a fake atheist because I don't want Israelis as dead as they and the Christians want Palestinians. I'm not a fan of seeing anyone dies wastefully and foolishly.

Don't you? Anony's as rabid on this cause as any fundy Muslim.

What Anon doesn't seem to realize, or perhaps he just doesn't care, is that we suffer an unfair guilt by association just by having an anti-Semitic hate spewer in our midst claiming to be an atheist. We are persecuted and hated enough without being labeled as Nazi's. Even were he sucessful in pulling the wool over our eyes and getting us to deny the history of the holocaust, all it would do is create a nightmarish backlash that would push atheist civil progress back a half century or more.  Certainly makes me wonder if he is the fake atheist, deliberately trying to paint us in a bad light.

It takes a village to raise an idiot.

Save a tree, eat a vegetarian.

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Someone on this site finally

Someone on this site finally had an interesting opinion and they get banned.


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Gauche wrote:Someone on this

Gauche wrote:

Someone on this site finally had an interesting opinion and they get banned.

"Interesting"????

Seriously, you haven't heard the same 'arguments'(I use the word loosely) before?

The same accusations have been leveled at jewish people for over 111 years and are documented ad nauseum.

This person will be treated no differently than any other racist has been treated by the mods. We try to reason. We respond. We expect answers to questions devoid of dogmatic invective. If we receive no such courtesy then none shall be given in return.

This is not the first time you have voiced criticism of the way in which we try to handle the site. I don't expect it to be the last, but at least LOOK at what you are seemingly in defense of before bitching.

For the record, it is a timeout; not a ban.

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Gauche wrote:Someone on this

Gauche wrote:

Someone on this site finally had an interesting opinion and they get banned.

No, Pauljohn and Kevin weren't banned.

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A_Nony_Mouse

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

HisWillness wrote:
Cut that out with the "savages". A_Nony_Mouse was doing the same thing with the word "animals" in the phrase "Zionist animals". Can we PLEASE discuss people as people?

A courtesy not shown to Muslims. So what do you mean by "we"?

It's a courtesy I'm attempting to extend to Muslims, thank you very much. I may not agree with the bases of religion, but I can at least expect the people associated with those religions to be respected.

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
HisWillness wrote:
To answer your question, we're not really "supporting" the Jews, we're just not happy with people who attempt to make any group sound sub-human. Even when I've been critical of American foreign policy, my criticism has been of the government.

The US is a democracy. All the citizens of a democracy are responsible for the actions of their government. That was clearly expressed when all the Palestinians under occupation were punished for electing Hamas.

Yeah, I'm not going to touch that one. Being enthusiastic about attacking Israel is a bit weak-headed in this political climate. It's also a one-way ticket to bad treatment. Israel has always overreacted, so strategically, attacking Israel without wiping it completely off the map in 10 seconds is a bad tactical move. But then, wiping Israel off the map in 10 seconds would be a very bad strategic move, as the rest of the world would then have an excuse to shut down the middle east without moral reservation.

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
If the Iranians have shown anything it is that they can overthrow a government. If they don't like it do something about it.

Oh c'mon. The last time they overthrew the government, it was with the help of the CIA.

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
HisWillness wrote:
So when you categorize the people of Islam as "savages", it makes you look as foolish as A_Nony_Mouse calling people "animals".

Should they be called fruits?

What am I supposed to say to that? Are you a child? Do you not understand what I'm saying?

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darth_josh wrote:Gauche

darth_josh wrote:

Gauche wrote:

Someone on this site finally had an interesting opinion and they get banned.

"Interesting"????

Seriously, you haven't heard the same 'arguments'(I use the word loosely) before?

The same accusations have been leveled at jewish people for over 111 years and are documented ad nauseum.

This person will be treated no differently than any other racist has been treated by the mods. We try to reason. We respond. We expect answers to questions devoid of dogmatic invective. If we receive no such courtesy then none shall be given in return.

This is not the first time you have voiced criticism of the way in which we try to handle the site. I don't expect it to be the last, but at least LOOK at what you are seemingly in defense of before bitching.

For the record, it is a timeout; not a ban.

I read the thread and I don't think that person is racist. I think you've tried to color it as such. They're not inciting a pogrom. The guy leveled criticism against Israeli Jews (who don't represent the entirety of Jewry) based on his opinion that their actions were wrong not that they are inherently inferior or bad people.

While I may not agree with some of the things the person said, it's no worse than the criticism I've seen against Christians and other groups on this site that goes without a temporary ban or even a second glance. Maybe you don't want people who read the site to offer feedback about what they find interesting, or perhaps you only want to hear it if it's patting you on the back.

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Well, Gauche, your

Well, Gauche, your obsevation is preserved in this thread permanently and you've not been given a temporary ban.  I suspect your post has been read dozens of times now.  If someone objects to you considering A_Nony_Mouse's post interesting, at least you can be sure that you've been 'heard'.  Now, his posts are interesting, after a sense, but he is blatantly a racist, antisemitic, holocaust denier.  I'm certain what he's posted so far has been more than enough of his nonsense.  That he'll return here and continue to post his vitriol is evidence of just how much of he'll be tolerated.

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Thomathy wrote:Well, Gauche,

Thomathy wrote:

Well, Gauche, your obsevation is preserved in this thread permanently and you've not been given a temporary ban.  I suspect your post has been read dozens of times now.  If someone objects to you considering A_Nony_Mouse's post interesting, at least you can be sure that you've been 'heard'.  Now, his posts are interesting, after a sense, but he is blatantly a racist, antisemitic, holocaust denier.  I'm certain what he's posted so far has been more than enough of his nonsense.  That he'll return here and continue to post his vitriol is evidence of just how much of he'll be tolerated.

I don't think the person was being blatantly racist and antisemitic. Furthermore I don't agree with the idea of attaching one's religion or political ideology to their ethnic group and accusing anyone who criticizes them of racism.

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Have you read the rest of

Have you read the rest of his posts, particularly in the threads he has started?  This is not merely about his criticism.

BigUniverse wrote,

"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."


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Gauche wrote:Thomathy

Gauche wrote:

Thomathy wrote:

Well, Gauche, your obsevation is preserved in this thread permanently and you've not been given a temporary ban.  I suspect your post has been read dozens of times now.  If someone objects to you considering A_Nony_Mouse's post interesting, at least you can be sure that you've been 'heard'.  Now, his posts are interesting, after a sense, but he is blatantly a racist, antisemitic, holocaust denier.  I'm certain what he's posted so far has been more than enough of his nonsense.  That he'll return here and continue to post his vitriol is evidence of just how much of he'll be tolerated.

I don't think the person was being blatantly racist and antisemitic. Furthermore I don't agree with the idea of attaching one's religion or political ideology to their ethnic group and accusing anyone who criticizes them of racism.

Not just anyone. This one.

You declare that you have read the posts in this thread.

I have read his entire site.

His link posts have been here for quite a while. Months even.

I have the feeling that no matter how many reasons we give you, you will still level the accusation that we are being unfair. Am I correct?

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Gauche wrote:I don't think

Gauche wrote:

I don't think the person was being blatantly racist and antisemitic. Furthermore I don't agree with the idea of attaching one's religion or political ideology to their ethnic group and accusing anyone who criticizes them of racism.

If you read the rest of the material A_Nony_Mouse has written, you may get a better idea as to why the mods decided to give him a little break. I've personally tried to engage him on what I think you correctly identify as the interesting parts of his posts, and I get cryptic references to "Zionist animals" and botched holocaust statistics. It's not so much "racism" in my opinion as it is underhanded hate-mongering. There's also the issue of repeating unconfirmable statistics without references, etc.

Anyway, there's more to it than just this one thread.

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I passively glanced at some

I passively glanced at some of the things he wrote. While I may not agree with some things he said I wouldn't characterize it as blatantly racist. I say negative thing about the Israelis all the time and I'm not a racist.

There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
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Gauche wrote:I passively

Gauche wrote:

I passively glanced at some of the things he wrote. While I may not agree with some things he said I wouldn't characterize it as blatantly racist. I say negative thing about the Israelis all the time and I'm not a racist.

Right. And you haven't been warned or anything, so that makes sense. But in the case of A_Nony_Mouse, there were very specific reasons that his arguments were hateful.

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Gauche wrote:I passively

Gauche wrote:

I passively glanced at some of the things he wrote. While I may not agree with some things he said I wouldn't characterize it as blatantly racist. I say negative thing about the Israelis all the time and I'm not a racist.

Do you deny their existence as human because you don't like them?

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darth_josh wrote:Gauche

darth_josh wrote:

Gauche wrote:

Thomathy wrote:

Well, Gauche, your obsevation is preserved in this thread permanently and you've not been given a temporary ban.  I suspect your post has been read dozens of times now.  If someone objects to you considering A_Nony_Mouse's post interesting, at least you can be sure that you've been 'heard'.  Now, his posts are interesting, after a sense, but he is blatantly a racist, antisemitic, holocaust denier.  I'm certain what he's posted so far has been more than enough of his nonsense.  That he'll return here and continue to post his vitriol is evidence of just how much of he'll be tolerated.

I don't think the person was being blatantly racist and antisemitic. Furthermore I don't agree with the idea of attaching one's religion or political ideology to their ethnic group and accusing anyone who criticizes them of racism.

Not just anyone. This one.

You declare that you have read the posts in this thread.

I have read his entire site.

His link posts have been here for quite a while. Months even.

I have the feeling that no matter how many reasons we give you, you will still level the accusation that we are being unfair. Am I correct?

I don't think you should accuse my of being unreasonable. Had the person said something really attrocious I would think banning them was funny.  I'm not writing this guy's fucking biography, I don't know if he's racist or not. I'm telling you my perception of what I've seen on this website. For two years I've seen people spew venomous bile at bible thumpers and jesus freaks on this site, some of it I agree with, some of it I find amusing, and some of it I think is uncalled for. But I never see people labeled hatemongers for doing it and I don't think they should be.

There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft


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jcgadfly wrote:Gauche

jcgadfly wrote:

Gauche wrote:

I passively glanced at some of the things he wrote. While I may not agree with some things he said I wouldn't characterize it as blatantly racist. I say negative thing about the Israelis all the time and I'm not a racist.

Do you deny their existence as human because you don't like them?

I don't understand why you feel it's appropriate to ask me that. I don't like their religion (if they have one) I think it's a throwback from a less civilized era. I don't agree with their political ideology. I think it's tribalistic and racist. I don't like the callous indifference they've shown to causing civilian casualties and I won't be jumping on their bandwagon no matter how long it gets or how many atheists are on it. How do you expect to have a constructive dialog when you begin by asking me if I consider the people to be subhuman?

There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft


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Gauche wrote:darth_josh

Gauche wrote:

darth_josh wrote:

Gauche wrote:

Someone on this site finally had an interesting opinion and they get banned.

"Interesting"????

Seriously, you haven't heard the same 'arguments'(I use the word loosely) before?

The same accusations have been leveled at jewish people for over 111 years and are documented ad nauseum.

This person will be treated no differently than any other racist has been treated by the mods. We try to reason. We respond. We expect answers to questions devoid of dogmatic invective. If we receive no such courtesy then none shall be given in return.

This is not the first time you have voiced criticism of the way in which we try to handle the site. I don't expect it to be the last, but at least LOOK at what you are seemingly in defense of before bitching.

For the record, it is a timeout; not a ban.

I read the thread and I don't think that person is racist. I think you've tried to color it as such. They're not inciting a pogrom. The guy leveled criticism against Israeli Jews (who don't represent the entirety of Jewry) based on his opinion that their actions were wrong not that they are inherently inferior or bad people.

You read the thread?  Did you happen to read any of these threads he's started in the last month?

Inventing the Jewish Race

Christian Relations with Jews

The invention of the Jewish people

 

It's just a time-out and the obsession he has with jews led to this thread derailment, and it was the reason for the timeout: Aren't they adorable?

 



Quote:
While I may not agree with some of the things the person said, it's no worse than the criticism I've seen against Christians and other groups on this site that goes without a temporary ban or even a second glance.

Read about how wrong you are here: http://www.rationalresponders.com/matt_shizzle  You'll notice he posts in the thread "...I want to do anything I can to hurt this retard site. I want it destroyed like the last site that banned me was."  In fact it's partially because we felt that we were misrepresented to Christians that Matt was removed.

How ironic is that YOU posted in the thread, thereby indicating that you either have a bad memory or are attempting to use the time-out imparted on anony_mouse to attack the crediblity of the mods here in a manner that you know to be dishonest.  Do you have a bad memory? 

 

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Gauche
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I don't have the time to

I don't have the time to read every bad thing that person wrote about Jewish people. But if this thread is an accrate representation of his other posts it sems pretty tame to me. Matt Shizzle threatened several people and talked about murder and torture. 

There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft