is God being lazy?
Offline Yo,
First post for me on this forum and really glad I found a place where I can discuss these things openly. Please excuse my bad English, I'm from Holland. (I know explains a lot)
I think a lot about religion and think it's fine for people to believe in what they want, as long as it's not a danger to other people. (they can believe in JRR Tolkien's work for all I care) As long as it helps them become better people it's fine with me.
That said I always wondered why all the holy scripts were all written by humans... I mean, god created this world right? So how come he left out an instruction manual. Shouldn't be too hard for him being all mighty an' all (he shoud've created a global language aswell so anyone could read it)... Instead we got these (contradicting) texts which tell us what to do written by humans. If god was so aware and did exist, why the hell did he allow so many different prophets to roam the world? Maybe he was screwing with their minds and hoping people would grow to believe different things so he could have a laugh at the jihad's and the crusades. It's like a child putting different bugs together making 'em fight. God I think you are toying with us... (It's pretty weird being a human criticizing on god, I think he reached a whole new level)
And what is it with god wanting people to believe in him?! I mean, if we are all supposed to believe in him he could try a bit harder... Like pay a visit or something. And no, don't sent your son this time. You come and pay us a visit. And make sure everyone knows who you are, do some kick ass miracles every once in a while. (I wonder if god has internet...)
At least the jews know their god doesn't give a shit. He is, neither good or evil, timeless you name it. He is... Pretty useless.
Ow one more thing god, if you could give an explanation of your devine plan and make it understandable for all of us.... Would be great. If anyone can do it it's you! Cheers.
God bless Atheism.
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Offline Perhaps you shouldn't have started your tangential discussion of the OP as a reply to my post. If it's not about questioning my beliefs you shouldn't have, you know, questioned my beliefs.
There's no taboo about examining my beliefs. There's also no dancing or redefining. If you're just going to start making up shit then we really have nothing to discuss. The subject at hand is the question if gods are lazy. I've tried to make the point that maybe the gods are apathetic to worship, rather than being lazy or assholes. You want to discuss the underpinnings of the belief in gods in human psychology, which is fine, but that's not what I was discussing and it's not what this thread was focusing on. Perhaps it'd be better if you started a new thread for your discussion. You claim I was dancing around the point, which I wasn't. What I was doing was keeping to what I was talking about rather than your tangent. You claim I was somehow redefining words; kindly tell me which words I've "redefined", because I don't see it. Every word I've used has the definitions I've used already.
Dancing around the point: "but that's not what I was discussing and it's not what this thread was focusing on"
Redefinition of words: Conflation of validation and worship. Renaming "worship" to "honoring".
Taboo: What you did to Hamby, ignoring salient points to avoid examination of belief.
"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray
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Offline This entire thread has snowballed into a giant clusterfuck of nonsense.
Hamby, it's no use trying to counter anything Ciarin says; she's the tortured artist, non-conformist belief system individual that contradicts herself, dodges the issue and is clearly delusional. There's really nothing else to say so, let's just leave her to her fantasy world of Dungeons and Dragons and maybe Odin will give her a call.
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Offline Ciarin wrote:Perhaps you could point out where I questioned your beliefs. Reading back all I see is discussing the psychology of it. Which is tangentically related to the OP, and your post is what brought the thought to mind. Silly me for thinking you'd be interested in discussing it, what with all your participation in a forum where discussing this sort of thing goes on.Perhaps you shouldn't have started your tangential discussion of the OP as a reply to my post. If it's not about questioning my beliefs you shouldn't have, you know, questioned my beliefs.
silly me for thinking you were paying attention to what I was saying.
But anyway, here are your questions in regards to my beliefs:
"And you don't see how requiring behavior that meets thier standard to avoid punishment and gain reward is an extension of the human need for validation?"
"Who decided what's good and what's bad? Isn't that what the Sagas outline, good and bad behavior amongst the gods et al?"
Plus you've made assumptions about my beliefs that I had to correct, for example:
"See, "save you from Muspelheim" is the avoid punishment part. The near-eternal party in Valhalla is the reward part. The emulation of behavior is the die brave/do good part."
Interesting that you would say I'm insisting on a taboo for examining my beliefs even though I've tried to answer all of your questions.
Sorry hon, topic drift is a long, fine tradition.
Dancing around the point: "but that's not what I was discussing and it's not what this thread was focusing on"
Dancing around the point: "I keep talking about the psycology."
Redefinition of words: Conflation of validation and worship. Renaming "worship" to "honoring".
um...no. I was replying to this: "Q was very concerned about worship. Everything he did screamed "validate me!"A god's need to be worshiped is an extension of the human need to be validated." And I disagreed with that. I do not think Q sought validation, and this is evidenced by no one ever worshipping Q. I do not believe he was concerned about worship in the least, unless you can cite me the episode that provides evidence of your position.
I did not rename "worship" to "honoring", it was more of a differentiation of the type of worship. I don't bow down or kneel, I don't submit. It helps to be specific with language sometimes. What I do as worship, and what a christian or muslim does as worship isn't the same. I told you, I believe you could call what I do "worship", I prefer not to. I prefer to use another term which indicates the level of worship. That's not redefining, it's being more specific. Try again.
Taboo: What you did to Hamby, ignoring salient points to avoid examination of belief.
Um..no I didn't. he didn't examine my beliefs at all. We just disagreed about the "q needs validation" argument.
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Offline This entire thread has snowballed into a giant clusterfuck of nonsense.
Easily remedied though.
Hamby, it's no use trying to counter anything Ciarin says; she's the tortured artist, non-conformist belief system individual that contradicts herself, dodges the issue and is clearly delusional. There's really nothing else to say so, let's just leave her to her fantasy world of Dungeons and Dragons and maybe Odin will give her a call.
um...weren't you the one that chose death first?
btw, D&D is old school nerd, I'm all about WoW.
And yea, my faith doesn't have the same traits as christianity, big deal. Sometimes it's good to hear a different viewpoint in the Atheist VS Theist forum, rather than christian-theist. I know most of you guys post your threads aimed at christianity(as this one probably was), but that doesn't mean I shouldn't post in them, does it? Unless you're talking about Jesus or some bible scripture specifically, then I should be able to add my non-conformist belief system opinion.
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Offline But anyway, here are your questions in regards to my beliefs:
That tears it, I'm out.
"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray
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Offline Cpt_pineapple wrote:One would pretty much have to have that opinion to be a deist, yes?Wow.
I'll just chime in here and say I don't think God needs validation let alone worship.
Pretty much.
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Offline Ciarin wrote:Now you're conflating "questions about" with "questioning".But anyway, here are your questions in regards to my beliefs:
Not really.
That tears it, I'm out.
Cya.
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Offline Wow.I'll just chime in here and say I don't think God needs validation let alone worship.
So I take it you don't believe the BuyBull is the word of God. Surely you must see how the god of the Bible reeks of his desire for validation and worship.
After eating an entire bull, a mountain lion felt so good he started roaring. He kept it up until a hunter came along and shot him.
The moral: When you're full of bull, keep your mouth shut.
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Offline Cpt_pineapple wrote:Wow.I'll just chime in here and say I don't think God needs validation let alone worship.
So I take it you don't believe the BuyBull is the word of God. Surely you must see how the god of the Bible reeks of his desire for validation and worship.
Never read it
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Offline spike.barnett wrote:Ciarin wrote:Or maybe he doesn't really care if people worship him?
I'm reasonably sure the OP was referring to an Abrahamic God. And I dare say that all three of them are pretty bent on mass worship. The fact that he doesn't exert enough influence to convert me tells me that he is lazy, or he wants me to go to Hell. Like I said, lazy, asshole, or combination of the two.
As far as any Pagan gods go... I had a girlfriend that believed in the whole Wicca thing but I really didn't pay much attention to it, so I don't have enough information to have an opinion on it. I did however determine that she was a little crazy.
I don't think it matters which god he's referring to. Even the christian god might not care if people are worshiping him. Maybe it's like the deists; god created everything, then he left us alone.
Maybe it doesn't matter. But I am answering the question put forth to us. The OP is pretty clearly asking about the non-Deist Abrahamic God. If the OP was assuming God created the universe and walked away the Bible would hold no merit and the OP would not mention the scripture. Are you bored and just picking fights?
After eating an entire bull, a mountain lion felt so good he started roaring. He kept it up until a hunter came along and shot him.
The moral: When you're full of bull, keep your mouth shut.
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Offline Never read it
I LOL'd so hard when I read that. 
I like your sense of humor.
After eating an entire bull, a mountain lion felt so good he started roaring. He kept it up until a hunter came along and shot him.
The moral: When you're full of bull, keep your mouth shut.
MySpace
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Offline I was serious, I've never been religious.
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Offline Maybe it doesn't matter. But I am answering the question put forth to us. The OP is pretty clearly asking about the non-Deist Abrahamic God. If the OP was assuming God created the universe and walked away the Bible would hold no merit and the OP would not mention the scripture. Are you bored and just picking fights?
I'm not bored. I thought it was an interesting discussion.
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Offline Redefinition of words: Conflation of validation and worship. Renaming "worship" to "honoring".
Err... Jill, not to side with the polytheist here, but aren't you the one who conflated validation and worship by saying that Q's need for validation meant he was concerned about worship?
Q was very concerned about worship. Everything he did screamed "validate me!"
Just because he wanted validation doesn't mean he was concerned about worship. From the motives ascribed to the character by the writers who, well, did the scribing... he was concerned about entertainment. Yes, he sought validation. But no, Ciarin's not conflating validation and worship, she's replying within the framework established when you conflated the two.
Also, and I could be wrong here, but I think the point missed when you two were talking past one another about behavior emulation and being saved from eternal punishment is: the gods don't do that.
More clearly though: Behavior emulation, ie: the societal impetus toward behaving in a manner consistent with society's norms and tolerances, is definitely in effect. There's no way it can't be, because that's part and parcel of the things that make any social group, well, social. However, in this context, that's not an issue of divine need for validation, because the reward/punishment has nothing to do with the gods. Your actions determine where you end up in the same way that the bumps on a dirt road determine where a ball will bounce if rolled down that road: there's no conscious interpretation involved. The universe determines where you end up, the gods are just another, more powerful and less time-limited group of individuals within the implacable and impersonal universe, and are just as subject to the whims of fate as any mortal. The gods, by comparison, might be nice to you if they notice your worship... because everyone likes validation... but that doesn't mean they need it, because as a general rule, they don't pay any attention to you.
So the reward/punishment aspect of the belief structure isn't about divine need for validation, it's about society's need to reinforce its moires. It is openly and unabashedly society saying 'the gods don't really give a shit what you do, because the gods don't really give a shit about you at all. They have their own issues. We, on the other hand, give a shit, and so you will behave because obviously the universe has produced society, and society says to behave, so the universe itself is telling you to behave.'
"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid
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Offline Ciarin, there's no common ground with you. I mean, you want to have a non-conformist outlook on beliefs, that's fine, but a horse is a horse, of course of course. You still have theist views and that makes you on par with how Christians, Catholics and every other religion sees a majority of free thinking outlooks. By the same token, just because you might not have mainstream corrupted views on the world because of your beliefs, that doesn't make you any better or worse.
You'll always have something to say to us on these boards about every issue that arises and no matter what we say, you'll try to dissect arguments and quote everything even if they hold no validity or contribute anything to the conversation.
That being said, I'm done here as well and I'm sure you'll quote this and say something like "bye," "cya" or whatever so, proceed.
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Offline I'm not bored. I thought it was an interesting discussion.
My bad. In that case, what are your thoughts on the desert God? That is to say... If the god of the bible is the one true God, is he lazy or an asshole. I'm leaning toward asshole.
After eating an entire bull, a mountain lion felt so good he started roaring. He kept it up until a hunter came along and shot him.
The moral: When you're full of bull, keep your mouth shut.
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Offline I was serious, I've never been religious.
I could swear I read a post where you said since joining you now take the Bible less literally. Maybe it was another theist? 
After eating an entire bull, a mountain lion felt so good he started roaring. He kept it up until a hunter came along and shot him.
The moral: When you're full of bull, keep your mouth shut.
MySpace
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Offline Ciarin wrote:I'm not bored. I thought it was an interesting discussion.
My bad. In that case, what are your thoughts on the desert God? That is to say... If the god of the bible is the one true God, is he lazy or an asshole. I'm leaning toward asshole.
Schizophrenic asshole.
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Offline spike.barnett wrote:Ciarin wrote:I'm not bored. I thought it was an interesting discussion.
My bad. In that case, what are your thoughts on the desert God? That is to say... If the god of the bible is the one true God, is he lazy or an asshole. I'm leaning toward asshole.
Schizophrenic asshole.
So he has the same tendencies as the Aesir and Vanir?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
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Offline Ciarin wrote:spike.barnett wrote:Ciarin wrote:I'm not bored. I thought it was an interesting discussion.
My bad. In that case, what are your thoughts on the desert God? That is to say... If the god of the bible is the one true God, is he lazy or an asshole. I'm leaning toward asshole.
Schizophrenic asshole.
So he has the same tendencies as the Aesir and Vanir?
Sorry Ciarin.After eating an entire bull, a mountain lion felt so good he started roaring. He kept it up until a hunter came along and shot him.
The moral: When you're full of bull, keep your mouth shut.
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Offline Ciarin wrote:spike.barnett wrote:Ciarin wrote:I'm not bored. I thought it was an interesting discussion.
My bad. In that case, what are your thoughts on the desert God? That is to say... If the god of the bible is the one true God, is he lazy or an asshole. I'm leaning toward asshole.
Schizophrenic asshole.
So he has the same tendencies as the Aesir and Vanir?
I don't know if I would describe them as schizo, but some are definitely assholes, hehe.
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Damn, I hate it when people just say, "I've decided you're wrong... because I think so."
Sorry, Ciarin, but my level of respect for you just dropped immensely. Get yourself a damn psychology book and read it, ok?
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
Does that make your interest in Asatru more literary than religious?
"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray
Ditto.
ciarin.com
Are you joking? Of course Q was invented by humans - Star Trek is fiction.
"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray
Wow.
I'll just chime in here and say I don't think God needs validation let alone worship.
Here's an example of why it's not about emulation. In the past the viking societies found it acceptable to own slaves. So owning a slave would not be morally reprehensible behaviour nor would it cause you have a bad reputation. None of the heathens I know of emulate this. Today's society considers slavery to be morally reprehensible and wrong. If I were to somehow get involved with the illegal slave trade and buy myself a slave, I'd not only have a bad reputation, I'd also be arrested and punished by society.
I'm trying to explain it the best I can. It would be great if you didn't assume things about my faith, though.
No one is required to bother with the gods at all. The reasons we honor the Gods is out of respect. Some believe that by honoring the gods they will gain favor.
I'm not Asatru, I'm just using them as an example because it's more widely known, and the norse gods are more widely known. I follow the Anglo-Saxon version(ASH), which is very similar. But to answer your question, I think of heathenism as a philosophy and tradition that has gods in it. We don't have to worship any of them, and most heathens don't worship. Many heathens think the concept of worship is degrading and they're against it. The debate comes up from time to time in heathen forums and mailing lists.
Hehe maybe those ancient peoples didn't think it was superfluous.
Of course, because I'm so stupid I never understand any points.
ciarin.com
HOLY SHIT!
LOL, you don't get it. I was referring to it in the context of the star trek universe. Of course it's fiction. But in the storyline, the Q continuum was not invented by any of the characters. The Q continuum is a highly evolved species of aliens.
ciarin.com
"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray
I'm discussing fictional characters here. You know - Q, gods, figments of human imagination.
"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray
Who else would you emulate in society?
FFS, pay attention to what I'm saying. If you want to question my beliefs then let me answer. Don't assume shit that isn't there. You keep talking about psychology, that's NOT what I'm discussing.
I never claimed this is different from all those other gods.
Some think there is no difference, some think there is. I happen to think that you could call what I do "worship" but I prefer not to. I think you can honor someone without having to worship them. Worship has a negative connotation; like man is lowly and must bow down/kneel before the superior entity. It also makes you sound like a kiss-ass, imo hehe.
This forum needs a lot of things. I get very aggravated by it sometimes. The threads are set up like blog posts and the replies like comments. The "new posts" link doesn't work after the thread goes to 2 pages. but I digress...
haha that's awesome. Yesterday I was a passive-aggressive atheist.
ciarin.com
Yea, you don't get it, so I'm going to drop the star trek discussion.
ciarin.com
I'm talking about the psychology of belief in gods. It's the conversation I started as a tangent to the OP. It's not about questioning your beliefs. It's not about re-imagining your beliefs. It's about seeing the underpinnings of them in human psychology.
You can dance around the points, redefine words, and insist on a taboo of the examination of those beliefs all you like. It just doesn't do anything for the subject at hand.
"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray
"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray
Perhaps you shouldn't have started your tangential discussion of the OP as a reply to my post. If it's not about questioning my beliefs you shouldn't have, you know, questioned my beliefs.
There's no taboo about examining my beliefs. There's also no dancing or redefining. If you're just going to start making up shit then we really have nothing to discuss. The subject at hand is the question if gods are lazy. I've tried to make the point that maybe the gods are apathetic to worship, rather than being lazy or assholes. You want to discuss the underpinnings of the belief in gods in human psychology, which is fine, but that's not what I was discussing and it's not what this thread was focusing on. Perhaps it'd be better if you started a new thread for your discussion. You claim I was dancing around the point, which I wasn't. What I was doing was keeping to what I was talking about rather than your tangent. You claim I was somehow redefining words; kindly tell me which words I've "redefined", because I don't see it. Every word I've used has the definitions I've used already.
ciarin.com