Israel vs. Gaza

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Israel vs. Gaza

So Israel started bombing the Gaza strip on Saturday, December 27th, killing over 200 people: http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/12/27/gaza.israel.strikes/index.html?eref=rss_topstories

Hamas has vowed retaliation.

Anyone have insight into who will get blown up next, or what might happen?

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If history is correct

Israel will attack, hamas will attack it will go back and forth for a few months, then a cease fire will occur and then it will start all over again.


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I read in the newspaper

I read in the newspaper recently that dozens of rockets were fired out of Gaza strip into Israel in the past few days. This sounds like clear cut self defense by the Israelis to me. The Israelis said that if the rocket attacks did not abate that they would retaliate. The attacks did not abate. And so here we are. I understand that the Palestinians don't care whether or not this is Israeli self defense. They will still attack Israel in retaliation and then the Israelis will attack back.

"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."
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latincanuck wrote:Israel

latincanuck wrote:

Israel will attack, hamas will attack it will go back and forth for a few months, then a cease fire will occur and then it will start all over again.

Agreed. This shit just never ends. The've been going at if for thousands of years.

After eating an entire bull, a mountain lion felt so good he started roaring. He kept it up until a hunter came along and shot him.

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Atheist Jews don't get along with atheist Palestinians.

Does atheism necessarily solve this never ending problem? I have met atheists of both camps and they intensely dislike each other. It's all innate tribal affiliations and in/out group mentality at its worst. Religion just makes it irrational many times more.

Yet I wonder. If an atheist Jew fell in love with an atheist Palestinian on Rational Response Squad would fruitcakes like Dinesh D'Souza shit their pants while their heads explode?


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This eternal struggle will

This eternal struggle will someday end with a mushroom cloud and either a pile of vaporized Israeli remains or a pile of vaporized Muslim remains.

Boy oh boy, isn't that something to look forward to?

*facepalm*

 

I've made no bones about which side in the conflict I'm in favor of - but I narrow my eyes regardless at the casualty toll. I'm dubious that it was necessary to blow-up enough of the gaza strip to kill two hundred or so people. Of course, like anyone else, I'm empty-handed as far as peaceful resolution to the violence is considered; when your enemy is a bronze age death cult who refuses any form of negotiation and is Hell-bent on seeing your head on a pike, what the fuck do you do?

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I am fed up with both sides,

I am fed up with both sides, but moreso with Isreal because it is the westernized adult between the two, and overreacts. If they treated these thugs like criminals and not warriors, and gave more aid to starving muslims than killing them, then they wouldn't be creating more thugs.

While I can understand Isreal's reaction, when are they going to learn that it has not worked and will never worked.

I can remember news stories about this conflict as a kid and I am in my 40s and I am fed up with BOTH. At some point who started it is irrelevent and ending it MUTUALLY is paramount.

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Perhaps we should make the

Perhaps we should make the leader of both sides sit down together in a warm room and provide all the foor and beverage that they could want.  The catch is that neither side can leave the table without admitting defeat.  Then it all comes down to who can go the longest without bathing.

 

Sure, it might be a moronic way to solve the situation but all the flowery talk about making people stop attacking each other, talk things out and act nicely to each other hasn't worked.

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There is fundamental

There is fundamental difference between the Israel and Palestinian sides and that is the West funds and pays for Israel and generally not Palestine.

Neither Israel or Palestine can exist as seperate states without outside funding the solution to the Middle east does not reside in the Middle East it resides with western governments and fundamentally with western voters ie YOU

 


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Why are even atheist Jews so hung up about Israel?

I am ethnically Indian and an atheist born into a Hindu family. I couldn't give a fuck about Kashmir. Yet atheist Jews like to masturbate about Israel. What's in it for them? If they're atheist, rational and living in Europe or US, why do they give a fuck about a sliver of land stuck in Muslim central? In time, the Jews will be outnumbered by Palestinian Muslims. The very concept of a Jewish state will have no meaning if it wants to remain a democracy with one person one vote.

One of my favorite atheists is Steven Weinberg but I can't for the life of me figure out why he is such a staunch defender of Israel.


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But...with Christian

But...with Christian Zionists trying to pave the way for the Rapture and such, there will always be a trail of money supporting the being that is Israel.  I wish this feud between the Hattfelds and the Moustaffs would end already. 

That's crazy about the atheist Jews and atheist Muslims, though.  It just shows what learned bigotry will do for a person.  Ah, baggage...what a lovely accessory.


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Personally, I fear what will

Personally, I fear what will happen if Israel decides to pack-up and leave region to the rabid, expansionist barbarians besetting them. It will demonstrate to the muslims that they really can hope to drag us back a few thousand years and get every woman on the planet into a cozy Burka all her own.

Those asking why Israel shouldn't just depart from that pathetic strip of land might consider asking themselves why they bother speaking-out against religion, or why Europe didn't just lie down and let Chancellor Hitler put the reigns on them (like the first few countries he conquered without bloodshed), or why the American Revolutionaries didn't just accept the taxation and bigotry of the English and let bygones be bygones, or why the Northern states didn't simply allow the Southern states to secede and take their slaves with them, etc, etc, etc.

 

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"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
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What resources does that

What resources does that regon have other than religious tourism? The big three fight over that over works of fiction. If there is any scam greater than religion I have yet to see it.

It's just a stupid that diomonds are worth more than water or food.

 

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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/mi

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7801662.stm

More bombing. Israel hits supply tunnels.

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This latest round of

This latest round of violence simply repeats what has happened before...Palestinian militants lob some unsophisticated rockets into sparsely-inhabited Israeli territory, then Israel brings the full force of its U.S.-supplied military to bear on the Palestinian population.

The key here is that the United States continues to be a willing accomplice in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The reason the Arab countries hate Israel so much is that Israel is backed almost unconditionally by the United States. And Israel does not need to negotiate with the Arab countries because it has the United States to fall back on.

The I-P conflict will not be settled until the U.S. withdraws its support for Israel and forced Israel to deal on its own for a while.

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While I think that people

While I think that people should alway seek peaceful resolutions to conflicts it's hard to criticize someone for attacking a terrorist state like Israel. I mean yeah, you could call it self defense on Israel's part if you had memory of less than six months.

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Gauche wrote:While I think

Gauche wrote:

While I think that people should alway seek peaceful resolutions to conflicts it's hard to criticize someone for attacking a terrorist state like Israel. I mean yeah, you could call it self defense on Israel's part if you had memory of less than six months.

Each side thinks the other is a terrorist state. But in the 6 months of rockets only on Isrealy has been killed compaired to the 200 + by Isreal. I am not taking sides other than to say the one that wants to be more peacefull is using a sledghammer to swat a fly.

Instead of over reacting they should treat it like a crime. not a war crime and offer up a bounty.

Israel will not win by  the use of vertually the same tactics they have always used. They are trying to fight criminal action by treating it like a war. While going after the accused they at the same time need to feed those who appose them to give them options other than violence. If they would treat their detractors as humans and not targets, they would be much better off.

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Brian37 wrote:Gauche

Brian37 wrote:

Gauche wrote:

While I think that people should alway seek peaceful resolutions to conflicts it's hard to criticize someone for attacking a terrorist state like Israel. I mean yeah, you could call it self defense on Israel's part if you had memory of less than six months.

Each side thinks the other is a terrorist state. But in the 6 months of rockets only on Isrealy has been killed compaired to the 200 + by Isreal. I am not taking sides other than to say the one that wants to be more peacefull is using a sledghammer to swat a fly.

Instead of over reacting they should treat it like a crime. not a war crime and offer up a bounty.

Israel will not win by  the use of vertually the same tactics they have always used. They are trying to fight criminal action by treating it like a war. While going after the accused they at the same time need to feed those who appose them to give them options other than violence. If they would treat their detractors as humans and not targets, they would be much better off.

That's true enough but there is the little matter of illegal annexation. Let's face it, if you rob people and then you say that you'll negotiate with them but never return their property you're going to have problems as long as they're alive. From the Israeli standpoint they might as well just murder all the Palestinians then at least there wont be any more victims. The problem is that they've also attacked so many other people in the region that when US support dissolves for whatever reason the Israelis are going to have to deal with all those people on their terms and that won't be nice.


 

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It scares the shit out of me

It scares the shit out of me that Israel probably has nukes.

 

 

 

 


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It's interesting to note

It's interesting to note Egypt is shooting at refugees once they cross the border.  http://www.russiatoday.com/features/news/34714

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Cpt_pineapple wrote:It

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

It scares the shit out of me that Israel probably has nukes.

Probably? They definitely have many nuclear weapons. I really hope that the Iraeli military never looses a war similar to the Six Day War. If they do I suspect that they will nuke thier neighbors rather than allow defeat.

"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."
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Cpt_pineapple wrote:It

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

It scares the shit out of me that Israel probably has nukes.

 

It scares the shit out of my that any country has nukes. It all amounts to once any given country thinks it will not win, it is much like the jilted lover "If I cant have you, no one can".

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Kevin R Brown

Kevin R Brown wrote:

Personally, I fear what will happen if Israel decides to pack-up and leave region to the rabid, expansionist barbarians besetting them. It will demonstrate to the muslims that they really can hope to drag us back a few thousand years and get every woman on the planet into a cozy Burka all her own.

Those asking why Israel shouldn't just depart from that pathetic strip of land might consider asking themselves why they bother speaking-out against religion, or why Europe didn't just lie down and let Chancellor Hitler put the reigns on them (like the first few countries he conquered without bloodshed), or why the American Revolutionaries didn't just accept the taxation and bigotry of the English and let bygones be bygones, or why the Northern states didn't simply allow the Southern states to secede and take their slaves with them, etc, etc, etc.

 

In our time, do you not see the stupidity in claiming that a piece of land belongs to a group simply on the basis of their religion/ethnicity. It is not the fact that Israel is a "pathetic strip of land" but what it stands for. It is a region based on religion. Now if a Jew is an atheist, why would he/she fight for that?

The very idea of a Jewish state, a Hindu state or Muslim state is extremely irrational, stupid and simply fortifies our innate xenophobic tendencies.

I work in a pluralistic liberal city with folks from all over the world. In my department at the University, there are Jews and Muslims who work together in friendship. Now suppose this public institution where I work is transformed into an entity based on a single ethnic group's interests at the exclusion of all others. As an atheist and a rationalist, I would pack up and leave and no way would I defend that institution.

So I would not equate the defense of Israel to defending European Jews against the Holocaust or defending African Americans during the civil rights movement, etc.... It is simply not the same.


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ragdish wrote:Now if a Jew

ragdish wrote:

Now if a Jew is an atheist, why would he/she fight for that?

 

Hate to tell you this, but Israel is over 55% (IIRC.) atheist.

And yet....

 

 

 


 

 


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Whats worse is that out of

Whats worse is that out of all the western nations WE (USA) vote against a resolution in the U.N to have a Cease fire Between the two >_>

http://www.presstv.ir/Detail.aspx?id=79727&sectionid=351020202

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/12/28/gaza.israel.international.reaction/?iref=mpstoryview
 


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Now I am against the use of

Now I am against the use of violence by either side, and I used to watch the news and wonder; "What is wrong with these crazy Palestinians? Can't they just let the Israeli's live in peace?" So then I decided to use the internet to research what on earth these Palestinians are so pissed off about. Gradually I began to learn what the conflict was all about and the clincher came when I found this map.

One thing you won't ever see on the nightly news is this map.

www.arendt-art.de/deutsch/BILDER/index.14.JPG

It really puts things in perspective and gives you an idea what all of the fighting is about. It reminds me of the bloody history of the US 200 years ago. It's the equivalent of the US moving into American Indian territory and kicking the Indians off of their land so the US settlers could have land and then trying to claim that they are only trying to defend themselves from suicidal Indians who are attacking them for no reason at all. If a foreign Development company came into the US and kicked some people off of the Family farm that had been in the family for 6 generations and tore down their home with no compensation so they could build homes for foreign people I wonder how many Americans would see the Palestinians in a different light?

And  I have to agree that if the US stopped supplying Israel with nearly unlimited weapons things might change. The best thing for both sides is to come to the realization that their god is imaginary and the people  on both sides would have a better future if they worked together. I'm still against violence by either side and I think someone or some coalition needs to cut off fuel and weapons for BOTH sides only allowing food and humanitarian supplies  until they can work out some sort of solution that is agreeable to all involved.


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UN- real !!!!!

ragdish wrote:

Kevin R Brown wrote:

Personally, I fear what will happen if Israel decides to pack-up and leave region to the rabid, expansionist barbarians besetting them. It will demonstrate to the muslims that they really can hope to drag us back a few thousand years and get every woman on the planet into a cozy Burka all her own.

Those asking why Israel shouldn't just depart from that pathetic strip of land might consider asking themselves why they bother speaking-out against religion, or why Europe didn't just lie down and let Chancellor Hitler put the reigns on them (like the first few countries he conquered without bloodshed), or why the American Revolutionaries didn't just accept the taxation and bigotry of the English and let bygones be bygones, or why the Northern states didn't simply allow the Southern states to secede and take their slaves with them, etc, etc, etc.

 

In our time, do you not see the stupidity in claiming that a piece of land belongs to a group simply on the basis of their religion/ethnicity. It is not the fact that Israel is a "pathetic strip of land" but what it stands for. It is a region based on religion. Now if a Jew is an atheist, why would he/she fight for that?

The very idea of a Jewish state, a Hindu state or Muslim state is extremely irrational, stupid and simply fortifies our innate xenophobic tendencies.

I work in a pluralistic liberal city with folks from all over the world. In my department at the University, there are Jews and Muslims who work together in friendship. Now suppose this public institution where I work is transformed into an entity based on a single ethnic group's interests at the exclusion of all others. As an atheist and a rationalist, I would pack up and leave and no way would I defend that institution.

So I would not equate the defense of Israel to defending European Jews against the Holocaust or defending African Americans during the civil rights movement, etc.... It is simply not the same.

     You are so far out of line with what European Jews will do in defending Israel;  or North American Jews will do for the sake of Israel.   Stay out of this  discussion Ragdish,  you sound far too much the un-informed anti-semite.      Survivers of the holocaust and Afro-Americans have the same rational demand "I have the right to exhist as an equal human being".       Palestinians and Jews are the same people ethnicly and for the most part agree to this.  Two brothers living in the same house have a problem;  that is what the problem is.

 

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Shaitian wrote:Whats worse

Shaitian wrote:

Whats worse is that out of all the western nations WE (USA) vote against a resolution in the U.N to have a Cease fire Between the two >_>

http://www.presstv.ir/Detail.aspx?id=79727&sectionid=351020202

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/12/28/gaza.israel.international.reaction/?iref=mpstoryview
 

 

CNN article wrote:

 

The United States has warned Israel, however, to avoid civilian casualties. Israeli leaders maintain they are attempting to do so.

 

 

 

Yeah, don't make too much of a mess. Exactly what the fuck is the U.S going to do if they do have a high number of causilites? I just hope Obama has the balls to stand up to both Hamas and Israel.

 

 

 


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Jews vs savages

One thing I have noticed in this long lived conflict.  You do not see Jews strapping explosives and nails onto their children and having them blow themselves in areas frequented by savages.


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I've seen that map before,

I've seen that map before, but I don't have anything against Israel's actions that gave them that land expansion. The 1967 war was purely defensive in my opinion. They were told that they would be exterminated, they defended themselves and any land they took in the war they kept. It is their land now, and if their neighbors don't like that then they should not have assaulted Israel.

Weren't the Palestinians given the opportunity to become a nation in 1947 and they refused because they thought that their allies would destroy Israel and they would have all the land to themselves? But now they are not a nation and they don't have much land thanks to Israel's ability to repel invaders.

The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs has a webpage showing Israeli history through maps. Here is a pretty good one on the Six Day War:

http://www.mfa.gov.il/NR/rdonlyres/0B530509-EC60-472F-9F13-4163AC5599EC/0/MFAJ0d1v0.jpg

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British General Charles Napier while in India


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Dracos wrote:One thing I

Dracos wrote:

One thing I have noticed in this long lived conflict.  You do not see Jews strapping explosives and nails onto their children and having them blow themselves in areas frequented by savages.

 

And by coincidence you also don't see Palastienians in F-16s or U.S supplied armoured tanks.

 

 

 

 

 


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Quote:The best thing for

Quote:

The best thing for both sides is to come to the realization that their god is imaginary

Most Israelis do think God is imaginary. It's one of the most secular and irreligious (the two mean different things) countries in the world.

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

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deludedgod wrote:Quote:The

deludedgod wrote:

Quote:

The best thing for both sides is to come to the realization that their god is imaginary

Most Israelis do think God is imaginary. It's one of the most secular and irreligious (the two mean different things) countries in the world.

 

Was I about right with over 55%?

 

 

 

 


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Sounds right.

Sounds right.

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

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Quote:And by coincidence you

Quote:
And by coincidence you also don't see Palastienians in F-16s or U.S supplied armoured tanks

...You don't see the Israelis in American-supplied tanks, either. The Merkava used by the IDF as their main battle tank is entirely of Israeli manufacture, and quite superior to the American M-1 Abrams.

 

Also, yes: isn't it interesting that we don't see muslims defending themselves against such attacks with equally effective military technology.

Gee, I wonder why that would be?

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

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Kevin R Brown

Kevin R Brown wrote:

Quote:
And by coincidence you also don't see Palastienians in F-16s or U.S supplied armoured tanks

...You don't see the Israelis in American-supplied tanks, either. The Merkava used by the IDF as their main battle tank is entirely of Israeli manufacture, and quite superior to the American M-1 Abrams.

 

 

 

Wow, that completly negates my point.

 

Quote:

Also, yes: isn't it interesting that we don't see muslims defending themselves against such attacks with equally effective military technology.

Gee, I wonder why that would be?

 

 

Because it's kinda hard to build tanks when you're getting bombed.

 

 

Kev, Gaza and Lebanon are rather advanced places that had British and French support respectivly.

 

They are in no way, 'ancient backwater states' nor are they  'primative Islamic states' One of the driving groups against Israel is the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP.) a secular, nationalist group.

 

 

 


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Quote:Because it's kinda

Quote:
Because it's kinda hard to build tanks when you're getting bombed.

LoL.

 

Military technology is an emergent property of having a technical civilization, Captain. Hamas doesn't have modern military equipment because (suprise!) they don't have a modern civilization.

 

You and I have already had the argument over Lebanon and Gaza, so I don't see any point in repeating it. Casualty tolls tend to speak for themselves when two states go at it; right now the score would be 200+ to 1 in Israel's favor.

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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Cpt_pineapple wrote: And by

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

 

And by coincidence you also don't see Palastienians in F-16s or U.S supplied armoured tanks.

Right, you see them in MIG's and packing Russian made Kornet anti-tank missiles.

Their English made Hawker-Hunter's went down beneath the deafening roar of the 30 mm twin cannons found on Israel's French made Dassault Mirage IIIC's during the 6 Day War, jets that were a match for even third generation MIG's. The Palestinians lost their supply of American made M47 Patton tanks during that same conflict, despite their tanks having superior range and armor to the Shermans that Israel used.

It takes a village to raise an idiot.

Save a tree, eat a vegetarian.

Sometimes " The Majority " only means that all the fools are on the same side.


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Quote:Their English made

Quote:
Their English made Hawker-Hunter's went down beneath the deafening roar of the 30 mm twin cannons found on Israel's French made Dassault Mirage IIIC's during the 6 Day War

Ah, the good ol' days when the even the mediocre interceptors had a fighting chance so long as they had a capable ace on the stick.

 

Now with the all-aspect Mikes & Slammers around it's not even close to fair. No thrust vectoring on your bird? Growl, pickle, splash.

Next bandit.

 

I didn't know that the Palestinians had access to Hawker-Hunters during the 6 day war, though. Huh.

Those guys really do suck at anything other than throwing rocks.

 

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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Kevin R Brown wrote: I

Kevin R Brown wrote:

 

I didn't know that the Palestinians had access to Hawker-Hunters during the 6 day war, though. Huh.

 

Best count gives Jordan 24 of them prior to the war. They were rumored to have had a handful of F-104's as well, but I've never managed to confirm this. Considering that Israel was outmanned, outgunned, and facing for the most part superior firepower from all enemy forces, they did one hell of a job.

That the Mirage held up against Syrian and Egyptian MIG-21's is more of a testimony to the skill of Israeli pilots than to the Mirage.  Those MIGs had about twice the rate of climb as the Mirage, and they outnumbered Israel's intercepters by more than 2/1.  The main Mirage advantages was the slightly higher ceiling and twin 30mm's compared to the single NR-30 mounted on the MIG's.

It takes a village to raise an idiot.

Save a tree, eat a vegetarian.

Sometimes " The Majority " only means that all the fools are on the same side.


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Anti-semite? Have I truly said anything anti-semitic?

Jeffrick wrote:

ragdish wrote:

Kevin R Brown wrote:

Personally, I fear what will happen if Israel decides to pack-up and leave region to the rabid, expansionist barbarians besetting them. It will demonstrate to the muslims that they really can hope to drag us back a few thousand years and get every woman on the planet into a cozy Burka all her own.

Those asking why Israel shouldn't just depart from that pathetic strip of land might consider asking themselves why they bother speaking-out against religion, or why Europe didn't just lie down and let Chancellor Hitler put the reigns on them (like the first few countries he conquered without bloodshed), or why the American Revolutionaries didn't just accept the taxation and bigotry of the English and let bygones be bygones, or why the Northern states didn't simply allow the Southern states to secede and take their slaves with them, etc, etc, etc.

 

In our time, do you not see the stupidity in claiming that a piece of land belongs to a group simply on the basis of their religion/ethnicity. It is not the fact that Israel is a "pathetic strip of land" but what it stands for. It is a region based on religion. Now if a Jew is an atheist, why would he/she fight for that?

The very idea of a Jewish state, a Hindu state or Muslim state is extremely irrational, stupid and simply fortifies our innate xenophobic tendencies.

I work in a pluralistic liberal city with folks from all over the world. In my department at the University, there are Jews and Muslims who work together in friendship. Now suppose this public institution where I work is transformed into an entity based on a single ethnic group's interests at the exclusion of all others. As an atheist and a rationalist, I would pack up and leave and no way would I defend that institution.

So I would not equate the defense of Israel to defending European Jews against the Holocaust or defending African Americans during the civil rights movement, etc.... It is simply not the same.

     You are so far out of line with what European Jews will do in defending Israel;  or North American Jews will do for the sake of Israel.   Stay out of this  discussion Ragdish,  you sound far too much the un-informed anti-semite.      Survivers of the holocaust and Afro-Americans have the same rational demand "I have the right to exhist as an equal human being".       Palestinians and Jews are the same people ethnicly and for the most part agree to this.  Two brothers living in the same house have a problem;  that is what the problem is.

 

I think you are waaaay too out of line my friend in attempting to halt a discussion with a line like "anti-semite!" or "racist!"

I have stated absolutely nothing which could be seriously construed as anti-semitic. Does the fact that I am critical of India's occupation of Kashmir make me anti-Hindu or racist towards Indians? And I'm Indian.

When a Muslim fanatic draws carricatures of Jews or incites hatred in textbooks or if a person denies the Holocaust, these are definite examples of anti-semitism.

I am a die hard fan of Steven Weinberg, Alan Dershowitz and my all time favorite, Steven Pinker. I consider all of them shining examples of reason and rationalism and would take a bullet for them in the name of freethinkers. Yet my criticism of their support of Israel makes me an anti-semite towards them in your books.

If any of you seriously think that what I have stated is anti-semitic, then please have the moderators forever have me removed from RRS.


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Weapons

It is a fact that the Jews have better weapons.  So why don't the Muslims stop firing missles into Israel?  Along this line,  if I had young children and was being attacked I would keep my kids in the house.  I would not say"My My you kids are sure underfoot, why don't you go outside and throw rocks at the soldiers."


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Desdenova

Desdenova wrote:

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

 

And by coincidence you also don't see Palastienians in F-16s or U.S supplied armoured tanks.

Right, you see them in MIG's and packing Russian made Kornet anti-tank missiles.

Their English made Hawker-Hunter's went down beneath the deafening roar of the 30 mm twin cannons found on Israel's French made Dassault Mirage IIIC's during the 6 Day War, jets that were a match for even third generation MIG's. The Palestinians lost their supply of American made M47 Patton tanks during that same conflict, despite their tanks having superior range and armor to the Shermans that Israel used.

I can see them having the missiles (probably some US made stuff in there also - we dig selling to both sides of a war) but when did the Palestinians get an air force?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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jcgadfly wrote: I can see

jcgadfly wrote:

 

I can see them having the missiles (probably some US made stuff in there also - we dig selling to both sides of a war) but when did the Palestinians get an air force?

They've had an air force all along. They just know that they will be blown out of the sky if they fly it. Russia is supposed to be sending them 10 shiny new MIG's soon which they will use as paper weights, just like the rest of their aircraft.

http://www.lebanonwire.com/0812MLN/08122002SFG.asp

No doubt that they have some American armaments, both supplied by us and bought from other countries. But most of their rocketry is home grown, basically flying pipe bombs called Qassam rockets.  My friends and I used to make virtually the same thing as kids, using plumbing pipe, model rocket engines, and explosives concocted using Improvised Munitions Black Books I-III and the like. Quite the little terrorists we would have made had we been born in another part of the world.

Sad thing is, these guys are using things that we were making as 12 year olds. Hell, we even made a few semi-guided missiles using PVC pipe and electronic ignition systems for model rockets. In that regard, our stuff was more advanced than their munitions.

It takes a village to raise an idiot.

Save a tree, eat a vegetarian.

Sometimes " The Majority " only means that all the fools are on the same side.


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Desdenova wrote:jcgadfly

Desdenova wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

 

I can see them having the missiles (probably some US made stuff in there also - we dig selling to both sides of a war) but when did the Palestinians get an air force?

They've had an air force all along. They just know that they will be blown out of the sky if they fly it. Russia is supposed to be sending them 10 shiny new MIG's soon which they will use as paper weights, just like the rest of their aircraft.

http://www.lebanonwire.com/0812MLN/08122002SFG.asp

No doubt that they have some American armaments, both supplied by us and bought from other countries. But most of their rocketry is home grown, basically flying pipe bombs called Qassam rockets.  My friends and I used to make virtually the same thing as kids, using plumbing pipe, model rocket engines, and explosives concocted using Improvised Munitions Black Books I-III and the like. Quite the little terrorists we would have made had we been born in another part of the world.

Sad thing is, these guys are using things that we were making as 12 year olds. Hell, we even made a few semi-guided missiles using PVC pipe and electronic ignition systems for model rockets. In that regard, our stuff was more advanced than their munitions.

So they have obsolete planes with no one who knows how to fly them and make missiles that have the punch of your average M-80. How are these people a threat to the Israelis again?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Dracos wrote:It is a fact

Dracos wrote:

It is a fact that the Jews have better weapons.  So why don't the Muslims stop firing missles into Israel?  Along this line,  if I had young children and was being attacked I would keep my kids in the house.  I would not say"My My you kids are sure underfoot, why don't you go outside and throw rocks at the soldiers."

So they should just say "Yes massa" when the army bulldozes their houses so the settlers can move in?

Would you do the same if it happened to you?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Israel

IS this a land grab by the Jews?  I only have information from TV. the web. and newspapers.  They could be lying especially if the Jews control the media.  It seems to me they do not want to bulldoze Gaza and send in the settlers.  I believe they want to send a very strong message.  "Stop the rocket attacks, or we will."  I would appreciate any information to the contrary.


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jcgadfly wrote: So they

jcgadfly wrote:

 

So they have obsolete planes with no one who knows how to fly them and make missiles that have the punch of your average M-80. How are these people a threat to the Israelis again?

Having made both M-80's and missiles, I can honestly say that the missiles pack enough punch to kill people. While the Qassams are more of a nuisance than a weapon, the various and sundry weapons they have acquired do pose a threat. Your question is sort of like asking me why I, armed with a shotgun, consider a man armed with a baseball bat a threat. If he caves my head in with it, I am just as dead as I would be if shot. If I have superior weapons but refuse to use them when attacked,  I am not only an idiot, but a dead idiot. Or had you rather the Israelies just match pipe bomb for pipe bomb?

It takes a village to raise an idiot.

Save a tree, eat a vegetarian.

Sometimes " The Majority " only means that all the fools are on the same side.


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weapons

Desdenova is right on.  I have had the honor of being a civilian advisor to some of our troops a few years back.  Their motto was "No fair fights." At first it may seem that this is dishonorable.  However the concept of single combat where each side has a hero and thety do battle is not a good idea unless you are sure god is on your side.  Since we are sure that no god is on anyones side then the side with superior technology should win.


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Desdenova wrote:jcgadfly

Desdenova wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

 

So they have obsolete planes with no one who knows how to fly them and make missiles that have the punch of your average M-80. How are these people a threat to the Israelis again?

Having made both M-80's and missiles, I can honestly say that the missiles pack enough punch to kill people. While the Qassams are more of a nuisance than a weapon, the various and sundry weapons they have acquired do pose a threat. Your question is sort of like asking me why I, armed with a shotgun, consider a man armed with a baseball bat a threat. If he caves my head in with it, I am just as dead as I would be if shot. If I have superior weapons but refuse to use them when attacked,  I am not only an idiot, but a dead idiot. Or had you rather the Israelies just match pipe bomb for pipe bomb?

Well there is a difference - if you have the shotgun and you LET the baseball bat wielding nut bash in your skull, then you are an idiot for not stopping him while you are able. What I get from your description of the Palestinian military capabilities is that they can't stop Israel from attacking and destroying at will.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Dracos wrote:IS this a land

Dracos wrote:

IS this a land grab by the Jews?  I only have information from TV. the web. and newspapers.  They could be lying especially if the Jews control the media.  It seems to me they do not want to bulldoze Gaza and send in the settlers.  I believe they want to send a very strong message.  "Stop the rocket attacks, or we will."  I would appreciate any information to the contrary.

If they wanted the attacks stopped, wouldn't they have done it before now? It seems more like they want a persistent boogeyman to keep the average Israeli going with the program. Kind of like Bush and Bin Laden - gotta keep people scared.

They're probably not bulldozing Gaza as much as the West Bank - more desirable territory across the Jordan.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin