Inventing the Jewish Race
Offline This is a complement to the invention of the Jewish people. This also gives a concise summary of how the myth of a jewish "race" got started. The author does make a mistake in referring to Jews as an ethnic group. Anyone wishing to claim they are needs be prepared to describe their ethnic characteristics which are independent of religion. They get desperate. Once some nerfbrain tried to argue that their ethnic characteristics became their religion and therefore only an antisemite™ would disagree with him.
http://www.counterpunch.org/portis12262008.html
Weekend Edtion December 26-28, 2008
How the Zionists Created "Races" in Palestine
Changing the Ethnic Vocabulary
By LARRY PORTIS
Between the Balfour Declaration in 1917 and the creation of the United Jewish Agency in 1929, the evolution of political vocabulary in relation to ethnic groups in Palestine accompanied the emergence of an increasingly difficult geopolitical problem.
At the time, notions of nationhood were at the center of all questions of foreign affairs. Although touted as a solution to collective conflicts in general, national self-determination was at best a tenuous idea that tended to obscure the re-composition of empires or, at least, the transfer of their control from one powerful entity to another.
Spokespersons for the Zionist movement intervened actively in the US popular press during this period of transition between the defeat of the Turkish Empire (end of 1917) and the eventual implementation of the British Mandate in Palestine (April 1920). This journalistic activity was particularly important in the United States because financial donations from the large and relatively wealthy Jewish population in the US were vital to the Zionist project in Palestine.
Contrary to predictions of stability under the British Mandate, British control was inaugurated by riots caused by increased Jewish immigration. In July 1921, after one year of the new British administration, the Literary Digest noted that fears concerning the Zionist project were articulated in Palestine and also in neighboring countries and in the United States. Reviewing reactions to the events in Palestine in Arab-American publications, the Digest found, as did Arab newspapers in the Middle East, that there was a careful distinction drawn between attitudes concerning Jewish people and those concerning Zionism. In Al-Bayan, a Syrian newspaper published in New York, it was feared that there was much misrepresentation “as to the real ground of opposition in Palestine to Zionism”. This concern was echoed by the Meraat-ul-Gharb (New York) asserting that “the people of Palestine do not hate the Jews, but hate Zionism.” The Syrian Eagle (New York) found it ironic that it was the Palestinians who were being accused of religious fanaticism when it was the Zionists who were immigrating to Palestine out of “religious sentimental” motivations. The editorialist then asked: “Has it come to this, that we must plead with England for possession of our own country, and prove to a credulous world that Palestine really does not belong to the Zionists?”
Although it was never explicitly stated, confusion existed over how to refer to the members of different ethnic groups in Palestine. In an article in the Literary Digest of November 5, 1921, for example, reference is editorially made to “Arab Mohammedans”, “native Christians” and “Jewish colonists”. But this circumspection is in contrast to the ethnic characterizations of Chaim Weizmann, president of the Zionist Congress, who in the same article referred simply to “Jew and Arab”, or to those the British High Commissioner for Palestine, Sir Herbert Samuel, quoted as approving “the legitimate aspirations of the Jewish race (my italics)”. Samuel (who was Jewish) tended to reduce the population of Palestine to “the Jew”, on the one hand and “the Arab”, on the other.
Even as he attempted to allay the fears of the non-Jewish population of Palestine, Samuel systematically employed a schematic vocabulary that obscured perceptions of the situation. For him, the “Jewries of the world” were simply attempting to establish their home “in the land which was the political, and has always been the religious, center of their race.” Several years later, the political secretary of the World Zionist Organization, Conrad Stein, castigated the “few mischief makers” who were “doing their best to keep the two races in Palestine apart.” (my italics)
In 1926, an anonymous “Friendly Visitor” wrote in the magazine Living Age about the “racial situation” in Palestine stating that “up to the present the two races are living side by side without intermingling” explaining that such exclusiveness was good because the Zionist policy was not to exploit Arab labor, but rather to encourage Jews to work in all sectors of the economy. The idea was that separate development, avoiding ethnic segmentation of the work force, would lead to more rapid improvement of Arab living standards: “as soon as the Arabs' standard of living has risen and the wages of the two races are equalized such discrimination will automatically disappear.” In addition, Jews must be encouraged to do agricultural labor, for “[n]othing but agriculture can change the Jews from a nation of traders into a nation with a normal distribution of its people into all branches of productive labor. The movement to the farm is the corner stone of racial regeneration.”
Zionist spokespersons incessantly emphasized that the Jews were a separate and distinct people or race. At the same time, the Muslim and Christian Palestinians were also referred to as a racial group: the “Arabs”. Less and less were the different participants in the drama designated as Europeans and Palestinians, or Jews, Muslims, Christians or Druzes. Increasingly, only two groups seemed to be present: the “Jews” and the “Arabs”. In only a few years, non-Jewish representatives of the region would also begin to speak in terms of “race” when referring to the different ethnic groups in Palestine.
Arnold Toynbee, the famous historian, raised a related question in The New Republic in 1922. For him, the trouble in Palestine lay in the imposition of a western idea — nationalism — in a region culturally unprepared for it. Palestine, regardless of its religious complexity, was in fact “a comparatively homogeneous country”. But a western political idea called “nationality” and the rise of national feeling in Palestine has “produced two effects. On the one hand, the Moslem and Christian Arabs began to feel themselves one with their Arab neighbors, especially with those of Syria, from which Palestine is divided by no physical boundaries. On the other hand, the Palestinian Jews, especially the agricultural colonists, and, still more, a majority of the Jewish ‘Dispersion’ all over the world, began to look forward to making Palestine eventually their own in the sense in which the United States belongs to the American people or France to the French.” Toynbee observed that the commitment of the British, United-Statesian, French and Italian governments to the “hazardous experiment” of the implantation of Zionism in Palestine would lead to more and more explosions of violence.
By the end of 1922 the future of social conflict within Palestine, and the uses of Palestine by powerful states, had been thoroughly discussed. The nature of Zionism as a nationalist political movement, its uses by the governments of the major western countries, the determining events in the creation of an almost intractable political situation, all of these dimensions of the “question of Palestine” were well known by educated readers. The way towards the eventual creation of a Jewish state seems to have been traced out well in advance of the actual event.
By the late 1920s, outbreaks of ethnic violence in Palestine tended to reinforce the idea that the population was divided into two irreconcilable camps. One result was the attenuation of disagreements between Jewish people over the legitimacy of the Zionist project. The creation of a reorganized Jewish Agency supportive of the colonization of Palestine, but not declaredly Zionist, seems to be related to the situation.
In November 1928, the Literary Digest cited a variety of Jewish-American periodicals (such as the American Hebrew in New York, the Jewish Tribune in New York, the Jewish Exponent in Philadelphia, and the Canadian Jewish Chronicle in Montreal) in which various “non-Zionist” spokespersons expressed their solidarity with the Jewish immigration to Palestine. At a conference in New York organized by the jurist Louis Marshall, Marshall proclaimed: “there are no longer Zionists and non-Zionists. We are all Jews together.” “American Israel”, ran the conclusion, “is at last united in a ‘pact of glory’ […] for the up-building of Palestine.” Here, the use of the term “Israel” in reference to the Jewish population of the United States is significant for its “national” implications. The expression “Israel”, used to designate a people seen as a nation, will eventually denote the nation as concretized in the “nation state”.
When the United Jewish Agency was officially formed at the Zionist congress at Zurich in August 1929, its creation announced a new phase in the conflict over the destiny of Palestine.
The new Agency created at the Zionist meeting was composed of one-half non-Zionist members. The importance was that these non-Zionists promised to support the pursuit of the Jewish projects in Palestine, projects that, in fact, are properly called “Zionist”. But now the Jewish colonization of Palestine was no longer presented as a specifically Zionist project, but rather as a “Jewish” aspiration. Consequently, the demographic transformation of Palestine no longer expressed the same degree of dissension among Jews.
To refer to “Zionists” would henceforth tend to be perceived as an implicitly critical assessment of the project itself. The new political correctness was not the word “Zionist”, which implied a secular political movement in favor of a particular ethnic group, but rather a new application in this particular political context of the word “Jewish”. Replacing “Zionist” by “Jewish” consensually united all members of the confessional group in the same project by agreeing to not to disagree over modes of expression and ultimate goals.
It is possible that the new consensus among non-Palestinian (European and North-American) Jews, symbolized by the United Jewish Agency, contributed to the tragic events accompanying its emergence. The inter-ethnic violence of August 1929 may have been directly related to the creation of the United Jewish Agency. This is the opinion of the well-known writer John Gunther, who was not unfriendly to the Zionist cause. According to him, “the formation of the Agency was a direct factor contributing to the riots, because it incited outbursts of chauvinism by Jews in Palestine, and this led to Arab retaliation.”
Whatever the case, the decade of the 1920s saw the emergence of ethnic hostilities in Palestine that would not be resolved by the eventual creation of the state of Israel. The dilemma of “national” identifications linked to racialist notions is a field for political exploitation that has remained all-too-fertile and tempting for demagogues of all persuasions. In this particular case, by incessantly juxtaposing the two terms, “Jew” and “Arab”, often in a context of comparative evaluation detrimental to the latter, a confusion was created between, on the one hand, religious confession and, on the other hand, culture regardless of religion.
From a Zionist standpoint, such terminological amalgamation was perhaps necessary in order to unite Palestinian Jews and the new arrivals. The “Jew-Arab” dichotomy was also convenient in that it drove a wedge between Jewish and non-Jewish Palestinians. The problem was (and is) that the terms refer to populations, real people, who were encouraged to see themselves and “the others” as different in some qualitative way.
Is not surprising that the term “race”— that in the nineteenth century had connotations that were as much cultural as racial — should be used in reference to the general characteristics of both broadly defined groups. It is unfortunate, however, that “Jews” and “Arabs” came to be thought of as such separate peoples. All the old “orientalist” prejudices of the nineteenth century, including anti-Semitism, could now be applied in a new geopolitical environment in which great-power interests would, once again, be justified by the principle of national self-determination, but this time by helping to create a national entity where the people designated as its active population were not only a minority but also recent immigrants. It was a project legitimized in great part by the idea that “Arab” populations were incapable or unready to assume responsibility for their political destinies.
After the interwar period the term “race” was avoided in reference to the “Jewish-Arab” conflict (because of the prominence of racist ideology in the carrying out of the genocide perpetrated by the Nazi regime against Jews and others). But are racialist connotations excluded from such terminology? Certainly not. Even after the creation of the state of Israel and the emergence of the new mode of referring to the conflict as “Arab-Israeli”, invidious connotations remain attached to the term “Arab”. This is, alas, but one example of how imprecise or misleading language is a tool for political manipulation that holds out the promise of instilling tenacious prejudices, all in the interest of ethnic cleansing.
Israel was created on this basis, and its culture and law are infused with racist presumptions. The very idea of a “Jewish state”, the low-intensity ethnic cleansing operative as state policy, the “law of return” designating Israel as “homeland” for all “Jews” regardless of their existing citizenship or their geographical origins, the biological definition of the term “Jew” (those who are born of a “Jewish” mother), the genocidal practices of control and repression inflicted upon those uprooted from their land and homes in the territories appropriated in 1948 and those living in the territories occupied in June 1967 (see the UN Convention on Genocide for the definition), the second-class status suffered by non-Jewish Palestinians in Israel, all of these things stem from a racialist conception of ethnicity. The Zionist movement was founded on this conception, and in spite of wordplay or wishful thinking the Zionist state continues its long-term project unabated.
Larry Portis is a professor of American studies at the University of Montpellier, France and a founding member of Americans for Peace and Justice in Montpellier. He can be contacted at [286][email protected]
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
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In the good old days the common wisdom was don't BBS drunk.
That was very good advice.
I suggest you try again when sober and not hungover.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
Anon:
You are breaking the forum rules of conduct by not responding to any arguments and merely re-stating your position repeatedly.
Continue to breech the rules of conduct at your own peril.
Thanks.
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
What would be the point? You're trying to convince people that even videos of mass graves and labour camps aren't enough evidence to convince you that there were such things. I don't know why I'd continue trying to have a conversation with someone who was so completely unreasonable. Quibbling over the number of people killed by the Nazi extermination program is too muddle-headed for anyone to do sober.
I wash my hands, here. Obviously feel free to continue being impressed with yourself - I'm not taking part in this embarrassment any longer.
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence
For example?
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
There were 27 million survivors of the holy holocaust in 1945. I ask you again, with 27 million survivors, who did they kill?
I remind you AGAIN that in my first post on this matter I said the simplest explanation is that the Israeli government grossly and deliberately exaggerated the number of survivors alive in 2004 as the report was prepared to support lawsuits for reparations. Rather than agreement with the simplest and most obvious explanation you folks have been trying to show both mass extermination and 27 million survivors.
If you have a problem with the 27 million survivors in 1945 you need to take it up with Israel. I don't have a dog in that fight.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
The above is what you're in violation of right now, Nony, by continually repeating the 27 million figure even after you were shown that it was incorrect without even acknowledging the argument against it.
Repeating a statement over and over again is not an argument, and does not somehow lend it more credibility.
I'm asking you nicely, one final time: Do not break the code of conduct. If you want to argue the position that the Holocaust never happened, against all evidence, fine. But do not engage in broken record re-statement of your claims.
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
No one has shown it IS in error. Some abusive troll has been giving a reason it MIGHT BE in error but after several invitations to recalculate the number after stating his criteria for recalculaton, nothing has been presented.
Additionally I have gone as far as any reasonable change can be made based upon the "half were jewish" premise and put the lower number at 13.5 million.
If you are simply that any stupid thing said about the number as that abusive troll has done qualifies as showing it is incorrect then this is not an exchange among adults.
I have NEVER said the "holocaust never happened." I have never argued that position. Is it not abusive and trolling and libelous to accuse me of something I have not said? Certainly you would not engage in that. Of course if you can quote me posting those exact words please do so. But in case you missed it, I did ASK FOR a working defintion of this holocaust thing but received none. So if you are accusing me of "denying" a hidden defintion anyone can be accused of that. It is the kind of accusation made in Stalin's courts.
If you happen to be smarter than that abusive troll who asserts his imagined correction is correct or the abusive kid who keeps calling me a Nazi then you will certainly start with the official number produced by Israel, give your assumptions and show your calculations of the correct number of survivors in 1945.
I am certain you, in your great wisdom and intelligence, can produce such a calculation in your sleep. It took me a whole ten minutes while awake. Give me some help and give me the correct number based upon Israel's figure and the proper assumptions.
Please do not be either abusive or a troll by merely asserting the calculation is wrong. That is clearly a repetition of a premise as you describe. I have already been accomodating reducing the number by half to a mere 13.5 million survivors in 1945. If you want more you will have to do something to establish a better number.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
I'm still trying to figure out what it is exactly you are trying to proove here with these posts? What is the goal? The "Jewish Race" doesn't exist, therefore there can't be anti-semites or racists against Jews, so it gives you grounds to say what exactly? You want to destroy the existance of what exactly?
You're as bad as your standard politician, you can spout off alot of words and say nothing of substance leaving your stance in ambiguity.
Hmmmm, have you met Paisley yet ?
What I have said on this subject has been in response to fools who have claimed Jews are a race. You have been reading what I post have you not? When people claim nonsense I see no reason not to reply and show it is nonsense.
What is ambiguous about JEWS ARE NOT A RACE? Please be specific in your response.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
Okay, so you've "prooven" it's nonsense, now what?
I have no idea. You will have to ask the fools who keep making that claim what is next. They do not tell me their agenda.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
Well you agree with the people making the claim that the "Jewish Race doesn't exist", what value could be gained from holding this opinion? Of what value is this opinion to you? What other races don't exist? (sure would be nice to remove all defination of races, then there would be no racism)
Paisley versus Anonymouse wouldn't that be fun to watch.
____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
You appear to be asking me the value of the truth as opposed to nonsense. The Nazis were the last to serious use of the claim Jews were a race. Today I am being called a Nazi for saying they are not. Believers are very strange people.
I listed the identified races before. Mongoloid, Caucasoid, Australoid, Amerind, Micronesian, Melanesian, Polynesian and six or seven different ones commonly lumped together as Negroid.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
Ok, by your expert opinion, what race would the Jewish people be, (of those
if there isn't a Jewish race?
There is no Jewish people. That idea was invented around the turn of the 20th century. Try reading the article I posted to start this thread. I posted it simply as a Jewish source confirming what I said previously.
Jews are followers of Judaism. Any member of any race can be a follower of Judaism. It is the same for any religion.
Why are you asking questions which I have already answered in this thread? Is it not considered polite around here to catch up on a thread before jumping into it?
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
No Semitic people unless they believe in Yahweh? Interesting...
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
("Cross" posted so those not following both threads see it.)
A_Nony_Mouse,
Could you state a source for this 27 million figure you keep mentioning? You keep bringing it up in this thread and your other and I haven't been able to find a real source for Israel declaring 27 million, only some ignorant sod attempting to apply "basic" algebra to something as tricky as a population model as well as making a shoddy assumption that all ages were represented evenly among the survivors. Hell, all ages are not represented evenly among regular populations that haven't been force marched and starved to death.
I would find it dubious to use this single source of poor application of mathematics as counter evidence vs. gas chambers, mounds of shoes and personal effects, eyewitness testimony, Nazi records, charred remains of thousands, and photographs of mass graves. But, you know, that's just me.
The google cached page is here: http://74.125.45.132/search?q=cache:Zj4ZMjzt7uQJ:giwersworld.org/holo3/holo-survivors.phtml+holocaust+27+million+survivors&hl=en&c... only because I don't want to give the author an actual page hit.
-Triften
Semitic is a reference to people who are native speakers of a semitic language. That is most commonly also speakers Arabic. It has nothing to do with religion.
Antisemitismous originally referred to the Ottoman Empire before common usage narrowed it down to Jews only which it did not refer to.
Yes, I am aware of the people who are desperate to impose the present day, colloquial meaning upon the original term.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
No problem. http://www.giwersworld.org/holo3/holo-survivors.phtml
As you appear familiar with this you also know that is an equal distribution is not used then at this late date a fewer number of young in 1945 would mean an even greater number of survivors in 1945 to make up for them.
You can see I did exactly that when I applied the common knowledge of the holy holocaust that all of those too young to work were killed. I pick age twelve. Anyone who had wished a younger age could have used it in recalculation.
I invite your presentation of your calculation of the number of survivors based upon 1 million in 2005. No matter how you look at it there have to have been several million of them in 1945.
What you choose is your business. I certainly would not choose pictures taken by communists who have always told the most outrageous lies about their enemies as indicative of anything. I spent 20 cold war years working on better ways to kill those scum.
When it comes to unsourced, uncredited pictures bodies and mass graves taken during war time I have to ask what kind of pictures people expect to come out of war. Egypt has found several mass graves of their executed soldiers from the 1967 war by Israel. These things happen in war. Even Haaretz reported these finds. No one makes a big deal of it.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
So you don't have a problem with the Hebrews - your difificulty is only with the Jews?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Life expectancies are not linear as you attempt to present. 67 years passing does not mean that 67/75ths of them have died. It would be closer to a normal distribution (with whatever standard deviation), so if life expectancy for someone born in 1934 was 75, that means roughly half of the people born in 1934 would have died by now. Your model would claim that almost 99% of those people would be dead, off by a factor of about 40.
For example, take a look at this table: http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/STATS/table4c6.html The 3rd column shows how many more years a person is likely to live on average, given their current age. The second column shows, given a starting population of 100,000, how many of those are likely to be alive, given the expectations. Note that this chart uses a starting life expectancy of 75 (roughly the same as most of Europe and Israel) and keep in mind that starting life expectancy is different from one's life expectancy given a particular age. (For example, if a person survives to age 1, their life expectancy is a little higher than a newborn.)
Run down the second column to the 75 year mark and you'll see that it shows 60% of the population still alive. In fact, we don't hit 1/3 until about age 84. Therefore, I don't think it unreasonable that about 3 million Jewish Holocaust survivors + 55 years = roughly 1 million Jewish Holocaust survivors remaining.
I'm a little confused: are you claiming that the only pictures are from Russian sources?
We have many, many records from Nazi sources. The Nazis were known for being obsessive record keepers and documented pretty much everything they could.
-Triften
To compliment Triften's link, here is one regarding life tables in Israel from 2000-2004, close to the date where our racist liar is frothing at the mouth aimlessly in regard to.
http://www1.cbs.gov.il/www/publications/life_tables05/pdf/tab0004_maxmin_e.pdf
Not that the math there will be of much use. Math isn't a requirement for physicists like A_Nazi_Mouse from Patriot University. Nor are facts, for that matter.
Oh, and as an afterthought, here is another link to a Jewish newspaper from 2007 that gives the number of Israel's holocaust survivors as 250,000.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1176152773917&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
From half a million to a quarter million in just three years? Gee, I don't have a Patriot University degree in physics like A_Nazi_Mouse does, but even I can tell that is greater than a 10% death rate per year.
Inbred highschool dropout neo Nazi lie repeated after refutation: There is no Jewish people. That idea was invented around the turn of the 20th century.
Well, except that, like I pointed out to the liar before, Martin Luther wrote the following in 1543:
"What then shall we Christians do with this damned, rejected race of Jews? "
, proving beyond doubt that the idea was invented well before the turn of the 20th century. But like I always say about the dollop of lying Nazi smegma, mere fact does not the zealot sway. One would think that a member of the Master Race would be able to present new material instead of regurgitating oft debunked lies, but I get the feeling that our resident Nazi is a bit of a masochist, and loves being publicly humiliated. Rumor has it that Hitler enjoyed being on the receiving end of scat and golden showers, so it stands to reason that his disciples would find pleasure in similar masochistic pursuits.
It takes a village to raise an idiot.
Save a tree, eat a vegetarian.
Sometimes " The Majority " only means that all the fools are on the same side.
What does that have to do with you learning the meaning of the term semitic?
Hebrews are a mythical people who, like the Israelites, were invented by whoever invented the OT stories.
Upon what evidence from my posts do you say I have a problem with Jews?
Remember, there are no Jews posting here. Only atheists are permitted to post here.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
Do not forget you have made NO case until you present your calculations. Words are meaningless without the calculations.
Clearly the human population distribution is not a normal (bell) curve. Cut it in half. Put a long flat area in the middle where very few die. Invert the left half to show infant mortality. The age at which infant mortality ceases being signficant is quite young due to vaccination. In those days considering primitive eastern and communist Europe it might have been the more traditional ten years of age.
However, the higher the infant mortality around WWII the more survivors would be required back then to match the fixed number of 1 million in recent times. So by ignoring that factor I avoided making the number of survivors in 1945 even higher than presented.
My assumption is simply that in 1945 the survivors represented a normal population from newborn to aged. That includes the plateau until deaths start occurring from generic old age.
That is an example of the actuarial statistics which I mentioned in a previous explanation to a man whose mother raise him in a barn.
All absolutely true but in 1945 there were 70 year olds surviving. There were also 60 and 50 and 40 and so forth surviving.
You appear to be trying to make the argument that only those who are alive today were survivors in 1945. There is nothing in the literature suggesting that only those aged from about 0 through 25 survived. That is the only way your reasoning could apply. There is nothing to indicate that in the literature.
In fact the only age related item in the literature is the elimination of those too young to work. That is the second calculation which assumes only 13 and older survived.
I can anchor my assumption in the literature.
You have not done so.
Nor have you presented any calculations.
The only claimed extermination camps today were in Poland. All of them were "liberated" by the communists. If the pictures are not from claimed extermination camps what is the point? If they are from such claimed camps they are from communist sources.
As for those famous Nazi records the ones from Auschwitz show a not unreasonable number of deaths from all causes. They were released by the Moscow archives about ten years ago.
Despite much searching I have found no "nazi" records showing anything of interest regarding extermination. I have also asked people like you who talk about them where they found the records and what they said.
So far everyone I have asked was merely repeating what they were told and had no first hand knowledge of any records nor even a URL to them.
In any event I look forward to your calculations.
Thank you for your time.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
I see you are still at your vendetta against Jews whether they be a race or a religion. As I had uncles, a father and several cousins in the US Army in WWII and several cousins not in Allied forces and several were involved in liberating these camps such as Dachau and Flossenburg your denial of German atrocities is simply ridiculous to me. If I can get copies of their photos I will so you can see non-commie pics. In the meanwhile these links following are mostly US Army photos which do an adequate job of presentation. As both sides of my family are German immigrants and I am a 3rd generation descendent my comments regarding my relatives and cousins who remained in Germany and propagated these atrocities is not in any way racist. It certainly did nothing for family relations. In fact I had cousins that fought and died on the Russian front in both WWI and WWII. One was a SS Panzer Colonel, I'll see what his family still has from the war if anything.
Dachau. More Dachau. And Even More Dachau. Flossenburg. Buchenwald. More Buchenewald.
Based on your comments I realize that this will not affect your views at all but rather it's for the viewers who don't share your hate.
I can't speak for everyone here but in my experience most of us here generally detest the religious views of Christians, Muslims, Jews, and other theists but don't exhibit hatred for the individual.
____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
No, I don't need to run calculations. Your calculations are based on shoddy assumptions which I have pointed out. The same as if someone presents a crappy argument for the existence of god, I don't need to present an argument for the non-existence of god, I need only shoot down their crappy argument.
I did not say that the age distribution was a bell curve. I was explaining how life expectancies work.
See, look: http://www.census.gov/cgi-bin/ipc/idbpyrs.pl?cty=IS&out=s&ymax=250&submit=Submit+Query An age breakdown of israel. Hey, see, abotu a million people aged 55 and up in 2000, putting them in range of surviving the holocaust.
Please cite your sources on what this greater number would need to be as well as where you are getting your data from. Again, you are making unfounded assumptions, so your argument is garbage.
And this is a faulty assumption given the events that unfolded in Nazi controlled areas. Do you really think that if you took a bunch of people and starved them, that all age groups would fair equally? Hardly! The elderly are much more susceptible to disease, starvation, and exhaustion.
No, you really don't provide an adequate explanation. In fact it seems more like you irrationally want to ignore actuarial statistics, which provide a much more accurate model of survival and death rates than your linear model (which assumes that 100% of a population dies upon reaching age expectancy.)
And you have only presented shoddy calculations using poor assumptions. Find some real age breakdowns of the Jewish populations right before WWII (or potentially right afterwards) and work with those. Perhaps you can talk to actual statistician.
Your case is flawed. The only literature you are anchoring your case in is an article you wrote yourself featuring those same shoddy calculations and unfounded assumptions.
Pauljohntheskeptic responded to your inaccurate claim that only communists liberated extermination camps.
----
Well everyone, I'm not going to waste any more time here. Seriously, this is like arguing with IDers. With IDers, "we have the fossils, we win". With Holocaust deniers, we have the photos, piles of human ash, Nazi records, eyewitness reports from survivors, Allied soldiers, Russian soldiers, heaps of personal affects, and roughly 6 million persons unaccounted for.
-Triften
EDIT: Slight correction to phrasing.
Christians aren't supposed to post here either - your problems with Judaism are very fundamentalist. They acknowledge the religion they borrowed but hate its practitioners. Your attitude is similar.
Besides, doesn't a semitic language imply speakers of that language. Hebrews (speakers of Hebrew - a semitic language) existed because Hebrew exists.
I would say claiming their non-existence as anything other than a Greek construct (despite visual evidence) qualifies as a problem.
And I still wish you had information from other than that one site (yours I gather) to go on.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
It is unclear what you are trying to show here. Dachau is not designated an extermination camp.
As to the pictures, what kind of pictures do you expect to come out of a war. The Allies bragged about stopping all food production and food shipments towards the end of the war. When a person starves first the fat is digested and then the muscle. The heart is a muscle. The well known pathology of starvation indicates the starvation had not been going on long.
And why the problem with your family if they fought the communists. They are the only group worse than the Nazis in human history. The Nazis attacked the communists and we never thanked them.
I still have no idea how you get Jews into all this. I can't determine religion from those photos. How do you?
I said nothing about any individual Jew in this.
Why are you trying to make trouble by inventing things?
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
While you may desire to divine a similarity I remain an atheist. Besides Jews tried to exterminate the Christians. They should not have started a fight they could not finish. If anyone has a right to have a gripe with the Jews it is the Christians. Besides that Christians learned intolerance from the jewish Old Testament. Jews should not have set such a bad example. Never know who is going to copy you.
It implies NATIVE speakers but it is far from precise. If you should waste your time learning Hebrew that does not make you semitic. Don't get up tight about it. The word has a somewhat different meaning when applied to ancient peoples. When Egyptian was replaced by Arabic the Egyptians were still Egyptians but became semitic in the language sense.
How does Greek get into this?
My website has several hundred MB of material, all but a trivial amount is mine. I might get back to it some day. Don't hold your breath. I am not.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
You are free to believe whatever you choose on the actions of the Germans and the Allies in WWII. The Germans did invade Russia and attack their supposed ally who helped them gut Poland. The Germans and the Russians were equally savage and brutal to captured prisoners and neither abided by the Geneva conventions. Torture and murder were the norm. Did the Soviets lie about a lot of things, all the time. In this case however Hitler provided them with all they needed and the truth was much better than any propaganda they could create. By the time they found the extermination camps which Kevin showed you in detail in Poland, the war was lost to Germany and little was to be gained from making shit up. Millions of people including those that were considered to be Jews or just Slavs disappeared during the war, as did Russian prisoners, as did German prisoners. Maybe all the bodies were from millions of Russians that were exterminated? Nah, Stalin would have screamed that in person at the trials of the Nazis. Stalin didn't seem to mind exterminating people himself and never showed love for the people commonly called Jews, so why waste good propaganda on them. It had to be the captured Russians! But no, that's not what happened. As the allies closed in the Germans did attempt to destroy evidence which my cousins in the US Army saw and claimed. And yes, Russians were executed at Dachau.
I know what comes out of war and am aware of the similar things the Japs did in Asia as well. The Chinese are still pissed at the lies coming from Japan about their actions. The Germans on the other hand were forced to come clean on their crimes.
The allies bombed Germany back into the stone age including cities such as Dresden. Was that a war crime? Some think so, I don't because IMO there were no innocents in Germany by then.
You have made it very clear that you don't see there is such a thing as a Jewish race or group of people that comprise a culture called Jewish. There are in fact no races but one, the human race. There are however local groups of people that get together in common interests, locale, and religious beliefs.
As to your comment that you made no statement regarding an individual Jew, that is true, you deny that there is such a culture. I did not accuse you of this, rather your cumulative writing shows an extreme bias. You go to the extreme of calling them "animals", the murderous Zionists in particular you call them. Exactly what kind of impression do you think such comments create? If you are simply against the Israelis for taking the land away from Arabs, blame the UN and the British. Blame the US for going along with it. Your comments sound much like what Muslims say about the US.
Like you I lived through the cold war and can still build a fallout shelter in minutes if needed. The USSR was always the evil Red Menace when I grew up. Being a red was one of the worst insults you could make. Did all the bombs and weapon systems bring down the USSR? Probably not, it was likely Levis and Porn. We had so many bombs that it was fairly clear the world would go in MAD. So after 50 years Cuba hangs on today dispite the sanctions. That really works doesn't it. Perhaps it's time to work out some of these problems in peace talks that are actually enforced. Or we can call each other names and shoot rockets at each other. They do make pretty contrails don't they?
Have fun now!
____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
1. Did you just claim that Hebrew exists as native speakers existed? That's odd as you made an earlier claim that Hebrews were mythical. The language existed without speakers?
2. I brought the Greeks up becaus of your views on the Septuagint being written in Greek. your logic leads to everything in the LXX (people, places, things) being Greek constructs.
3. Then pull from the original sources - If you pull from your site alone, one could suspect a doctoring of information.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Alright, here's how these statistics work: Many things are modeled by a "normal", or "Gaussian" distribution. Also known as a bell curve. Death rates can be rather accurately approximated by this. (Height is another really good example.)
Here's a few bell curves from wikipedia. The red one is a standard distribution (the area under the curve is 1). By modifying two values, you can adjust the center point and the spread to line up with your data set.
Here's the cumulative distribution function (or "CDF" ). It's the total area under the normal distribution curve from -inf to x. (You may recognize this. It is also referred to as a "Z-curve".) Please note that it is not a straight line.
With life expectancies, the normal distribution is centered more or less on the actual life expectancy value. The value of the normal curve at a point represents the death rate while the area under the curve represents the number/percentage of people who have died. If we are measuring the area under the curve starting from the far left (in this case 0 years of age) up to a point, we are looking at the CDF. The CDF also ends up centered on the average life expectancy, which means that at the average life expectancy, 50% of the starting population has died. If you'd like me to explain averages and how they work, let me know.
Life expectancy in Israel (in 2008) is 80.61 years (via the CIA world factbook). In 2001, it was about 78. This means that for a given population all the same age, by time that populaiton reaches 78, HALF of them will be dead. Not 100%. (You make this mistake in your third paragraph and your whole argument rests on it. An argument resting on a faulty premise is false. If you need me to explain this, let me know.)
Another unfounded assumption you make (and cite no source for) is that all ages are represented amongst the survivors equally. Famine and disease affect the elderly and the young more than those 20-25, so the age distribution of the survivors would have been heavily skewed away from the very young and the very old. So, even if the average survivor age were 25, using compiled life tables (also called death tables or mortality tables, made from the actual statistics of deaths and lifespans for a given area) available at http://www1.cbs.gov.il/www/publications/mortality/mort_e.htm , we see that going from 25 years of age to age 80, we would get a reduction in population from 98,250 to 46,791 or 47% remaining. This would make the survivors in 1945 number about 2.1 million, 1 million short of the roughly 3 million actual. In fact the average survivor age would be closer to 30 to get about 1/3 population remaining after 55 years.
No. That's not what I said. Here it is again because evidence suggests that you are unable to scroll back up to what I actually said:
I was referring to life expectancies, not population distribution.
I was explaining to you how death rates and life expectancies work.
I was operating off of a reasonable average age of survivors of famine and disease. There is nothing to indicate that all age groups were equally represented amongst the survivors nor that the elderly made up a particular significant number of the survivors in 1945.
Which would push up the average age, but again, do you think 70 years olds would survive starvation as well as 20 year olds?
So attacks on your argument are insults?
He presented better evidence than a misuse of statistics.
If an argument goes:
1) if P then Q.
2) P
3) Therefore Q
and 1 is incorrect, the argument is invalid and refuted without need for a counter argument. If you'd like me to explain this more in depth, let me know.
--Triften
They still deserve the thanks of the world for attempting to destroy a political movement which murdered more people in just the Ukraine in just the winter Hitler became Chancellor than the Nazis are accused of in toto.
As for the reasons for attacking Russia they were quite well expressed by Von Ribbentropf and are available online should you google it. To put it simply, Russia violated the treaty. The facts of history support the German position.
You should keep in mind during the war, during the time these events were occurring there was no distinction among the Allies. Any condemnation of any Ally is a condemnation of all the Allies.
One should always be careful in citing things with which you are unfamiliar. The conventions of war in effect during WWII only bound countries when ALL parties were signatories. Germany was a signatory, Russia was now therefore they did not apply. Further all the Allies of the enemy, in this case the Allies of Russia lost their protection by the conventions because Russia was not a signatory. That is the way they read. If you do not like it you have to take it up with a bunch of dead people.
Additionally resistance to the occupation was not protected by the conventions as they are today. The members of the resistance and those who supported them had no more protection than any other gang of criminals and their supporters. Again, take it up with dead people.
Just to make it more interesting, bombing civilian populations, Commandos and a host of Allied actions were violations of the conventions. Again take it up with dead people.
So tell me why you think the communists did not create what they found. For years Poland has been trying to extradite Poles from Britain and Israel for running those same camps as postwar death camps. Needless to say they are being protected from extradition by their modern day criminal governments. Elie Wiesel and his father chose to walk to Germany rather than be liberated by the Russians. Roosevelt and Churchill had communicated to Germany that they would be held personally responsible for what happened to the prisoners in Russian hands.
The most obvious thing to cover up would be the prisoners they slaughtered in the camp both at liberation and afterwards. As for the communist uses of propaganda against "fascists" and "capitalists" before, during and after the war are you unfamiliar with it? Never heard of Katyn Woods?
The fact remains there is no credible evidence of the communists claims. Despite all you might want to make of the pictures, there is nothing in the pictures which intrinsically supports the captions. There is no traceability of the negatives of these pictures which is an elementary requirement for even a single murder trial.
But let me ask you a simple question. Why, if all those pictures are in fact as claimed, why did the Communists keep the books of death records at Auschwitz secret in the Moscow archives? They only came to light when unpaid archivists were paid to produce them in the late 1980s. They only show abouit 400,000 total deaths over six years.
If you are going to say they did not keep records of those who were killed immediately then you are going to have to deal with the other believers who say all the deaths are confirmed by the meticulous record keeping of the Nazis. You folks cannot have mutually exclusive claims at the same time.
You appear to be incredibly naive when it comes to the war and the Allies. This claim of "millions" you can add to the requirement for pre and post war worldwide census figures. I am still waiting for believers to produce what I have been unable to find in some 15 years of searching.
As to where they are, perhaps the numbers are imagined. Look at the Russian claims of losses as a fraction of the population of Russia. If in fact the loss figure was accurate there would have been about two women for every man in Russia after the war. Although there was an Iron Curtain that fact escaped all reporting. On that note, at Yalta Stalin said his losses were around 4 million. Public mythology is always more important than facts.
These two facts come together in that it was 15 years ago I learned that at least by October 1945 the World Jewish Organization adopted 6 million as its official losses as the was the number conveyed the Justice Jackson before he went to Nuremberg in October. I was surprised that world census figures were available so soon and in only a few years concluded they did not exist. I am still awaiting anyone to find those pre and post war world census figures. I wait in vain.
The only good communist is a dead communist. Political officers were not a lawfully recognized military rank according to the conventions of war. Commisars were the instruments of Lenin's and Stalin's mass murders. Do you know exactly what kind of Russian was executed at Dachau?
As for destroying evidence, it all depends upon what you call what was found. I recently came into possession of the official US Army newsreel on Dachau. It clearly show disinfaction equipment while the narration calls it gas chambers. The original film of extermination included a clip of Germans stacking bodies like cordwood and burning them. The accused started laughing. It was duly reported as an example of pure nazi evil. It seems they were laughing because the film clip was of body disposal after the massacre at Dresden. Stupid Allies were damning themselves.
And the Japanese are too polite to mention the "rape of Nanking" was preceded by a pre-war slaughter of the Japanese enclave in the city. But lets put this in perspective. During the war there was also a civil war going on in China which killed more Chinese than the Japanese could have dreamed of.
Last I heard China and Japan and Korea have been at war individually and in combination for over 2000 years. I don't have a dog in that fight. I still do not see why FDR jumped in on the side of China.
If the assertion is there were no innocent Germans in a dictatorship then all citizens of a democracy are triply guilty. But voters think foreigners should take their word they did not vote for the party in power or some such insanity. Such a position holds all Israelis are responsible for the occupation. And post WWII conventions of war hold that the occupied people have a right and even a moral duty to kill those responsible for the occupation.
It is cute to see the immature pretending to make profound statements about others while never thinking it through. Their statements are inevitably in the me-centered world of adolescents.
But if you are too hung up on the Israeli thing, your idea of group culpability means any Iraqi or Afghani who lost a single family member has the right to take his revenge on any American or Americans at any time in the future. There are no innocent Americans in the slaughter of the members of the Iraqi army who were defending their country from foreign invasion. Even more were murdered by Americans who lawfully resisted foreign occupation of their country. Appeals to the current Quisling government as cover are hardly of intestest to adults.
And of course anyone can make a convincing case that follwers of Judaism as I have said, claiming there is something beyond religion is so far an empty claim. I have challenged many who have made the claim of something beyond religion to identify just what it is and so far not a single person has even attempted it.
Israeli newspapers regularly mention the ethnic differences between Ashkenazi and Sephardi Jews. I have not been to many public performances in NYC but I have yet to hear a single ululation which the Sephardim do instead of applauding as the Ashkenazim. In Israel the Sephardim are second class Jews because they come from a different culture.
You can go through all history and find the idea of something connecting Jews other than religion is an invention of the Zionists.
Then why the fuck did you accuse me of it?!? Am I supposed to talk nice to you after you lie about me in a post to me?
If you are so naive as to think the "broadway" Jew represents all Jews I can only suggest you get out in the world.
I ask you why you lie about this. I have only called zionists animals. You will find nothing else in all I have written. There was no "in particular" about it. It was only and explicitely zionists and you know it. Why do you lie?
That I am honest about zionist animals.
Why should I blame people who did not murder Palestinians? Why should I blame people who did not drive out Palestinians? Why should I blame people who did not steal their land? Why should I not blame people who are in possession of stolen property?
Zionists did all of it. Zionists have a national holiday celebrating it. At this very moment Zionists are murdering the rightful owners of the land in order to keep it.
Why does not the ordinary Jew speak out against the things being done in their name?
The only legal solution to theft is to make the victim whole by restoring what has been stolen or, should it no longer exist, replacement value at current prices. The same rules of restoration that apply to things looted by the Nazis are entirely and exactly applicable to the land of Palestine in favor of the Palestinians.
You and I know the zionist animals will never agree to return what they stole so that is moot. They don't have the same moral system as the rest of the world.
Always do even though so many people tell so many lies about me and what I say.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
They still deserve the thanks of the world for attempting to destroy a political movement which murdered more people in just the Ukraine in just the winter Hitler became Chancellor than the Nazis are accused of in toto.
As for the reasons for attacking Russia they were quite well expressed by Von Ribbentropf and are available online should you google it. To put it simply, Russia violated the treaty. The facts of history support the German position.
You should keep in mind during the war, during the time these events were occurring there was no distinction among the Allies. Any condemnation of any Ally is a condemnation of all the Allies.
One should always be careful in citing things with which you are unfamiliar. The conventions of war in effect during WWII only bound countries when ALL parties were signatories. Germany was a signatory, Russia was now therefore they did not apply. Further all the Allies of the enemy, in this case the Allies of Russia lost their protection by the conventions because Russia was not a signatory. That is the way they read. If you do not like it you have to take it up with a bunch of dead people.
Additionally resistance to the occupation was not protected by the conventions as they are today. The members of the resistance and those who supported them had no more protection than any other gang of criminals and their supporters. Again, take it up with dead people.
Just to make it more interesting, bombing civilian populations, Commandos and a host of Allied actions were violations of the conventions. Again take it up with dead people.
So tell me why you think the communists did not create what they found. For years Poland has been trying to extradite Poles from Britain and Israel for running those same camps as postwar death camps. Needless to say they are being protected from extradition by their modern day criminal governments. Elie Wiesel and his father chose to walk to Germany rather than be liberated by the Russians. Roosevelt and Churchill had communicated to Germany that they would be held personally responsible for what happened to the prisoners in Russian hands.
The most obvious thing to cover up would be the prisoners they slaughtered in the camp both at liberation and afterwards. As for the communist uses of propaganda against "fascists" and "capitalists" before, during and after the war are you unfamiliar with it? Never heard of Katyn Woods?
The fact remains there is no credible evidence of the communists claims. Despite all you might want to make of the pictures, there is nothing in the pictures which intrinsically supports the captions. There is no traceability of the negatives of these pictures which is an elementary requirement for even a single murder trial.
But let me ask you a simple question. Why, if all those pictures are in fact as claimed, why did the Communists keep the books of death records at Auschwitz secret in the Moscow archives? They only came to light when unpaid archivists were paid to produce them in the late 1980s. They only show abouit 400,000 total deaths over six years.
If you are going to say they did not keep records of those who were killed immediately then you are going to have to deal with the other believers who say all the deaths are confirmed by the meticulous record keeping of the Nazis. You folks cannot have mutually exclusive claims at the same time.
You appear to be incredibly naive when it comes to the war and the Allies. This claim of "millions" you can add to the requirement for pre and post war worldwide census figures. I am still waiting for believers to produce what I have been unable to find in some 15 years of searching.
As to where they are, perhaps the numbers are imagined. Look at the Russian claims of losses as a fraction of the population of Russia. If in fact the loss figure was accurate there would have been about two women for every man in Russia after the war. Although there was an Iron Curtain that fact escaped all reporting. On that note, at Yalta Stalin said his losses were around 4 million. Public mythology is always more important than facts.
These two facts come together in that it was 15 years ago I learned that at least by October 1945 the World Jewish Organization adopted 6 million as its official losses as the was the number conveyed the Justice Jackson before he went to Nuremberg in October. I was surprised that world census figures were available so soon and in only a few years concluded they did not exist. I am still awaiting anyone to find those pre and post war world census figures. I wait in vain.
The only good communist is a dead communist. Political officers were not a lawfully recognized military rank according to the conventions of war. Commisars were the instruments of Lenin's and Stalin's mass murders. Do you know exactly what kind of Russian was executed at Dachau?
As for destroying evidence, it all depends upon what you call what was found. I recently came into possession of the official US Army newsreel on Dachau. It clearly show disinfaction equipment while the narration calls it gas chambers. The original film of extermination included a clip of Germans stacking bodies like cordwood and burning them. The accused started laughing. It was duly reported as an example of pure nazi evil. It seems they were laughing because the film clip was of body disposal after the massacre at Dresden. Stupid Allies were damning themselves.
And the Japanese are too polite to mention the "rape of Nanking" was preceded by a pre-war slaughter of the Japanese enclave in the city. But lets put this in perspective. During the war there was also a civil war going on in China which killed more Chinese than the Japanese could have dreamed of.
Last I heard China and Japan and Korea have been at war individually and in combination for over 2000 years. I don't have a dog in that fight. I still do not see why FDR jumped in on the side of China.
If the assertion is there were no innocent Germans in a dictatorship then all citizens of a democracy are triply guilty. But voters think foreigners should take their word they did not vote for the party in power or some such insanity. Such a position holds all Israelis are responsible for the occupation. And post WWII conventions of war hold that the occupied people have a right and even a moral duty to kill those responsible for the occupation.
It is cute to see the immature pretending to make profound statements about others while never thinking it through. Their statements are inevitably in the me-centered world of adolescents.
But if you are too hung up on the Israeli thing, your idea of group culpability means any Iraqi or Afghani who lost a single family member has the right to take his revenge on any American or Americans at any time in the future. There are no innocent Americans in the slaughter of the members of the Iraqi army who were defending their country from foreign invasion. Even more were murdered by Americans who lawfully resisted foreign occupation of their country. Appeals to the current Quisling government as cover are hardly of intestest to adults.
And of course anyone can make a convincing case that follwers of Judaism as I have said, claiming there is something beyond religion is so far an empty claim. I have challenged many who have made the claim of something beyond religion to identify just what it is and so far not a single person has even attempted it.
Israeli newspapers regularly mention the ethnic differences between Ashkenazi and Sephardi Jews. I have not been to many public performances in NYC but I have yet to hear a single ululation which the Sephardim do instead of applauding as the Ashkenazim. In Israel the Sephardim are second class Jews because they come from a different culture.
You can go through all history and find the idea of something connecting Jews other than religion is an invention of the Zionists.
Then why the fuck did you accuse me of it?!? Am I supposed to talk nice to you after you lie about me in a post to me?
If you are so naive as to think the "broadway" Jew represents all Jews I can only suggest you get out in the world.
I ask you why you lie about this. I have only called zionists animals. You will find nothing else in all I have written. There was no "in particular" about it. It was only and explicitely zionists and you know it. Why do you lie?
That I am honest about zionist animals.
Why should I blame people who did not murder Palestinians? Why should I blame people who did not drive out Palestinians? Why should I blame people who did not steal their land? Why should I not blame people who are in possession of stolen property?
Zionists did all of it. Zionists have a national holiday celebrating it. At this very moment Zionists are murdering the rightful owners of the land in order to keep it.
Why does not the ordinary Jew speak out against the things being done in their name?
The only legal solution to theft is to make the victim whole by restoring what has been stolen or, should it no longer exist, replacement value at current prices. The same rules of restoration that apply to things looted by the Nazis are entirely and exactly applicable to the land of Palestine in favor of the Palestinians.
You and I know the zionist animals will never agree to return what they stole so that is moot. They don't have the same moral system as the rest of the world.
Always do even though so many people tell so many lies about me and what I say.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
I have to admit at this point I am a bit surprised you can turn a computer on.
The name given to a language has no bearing upon anything else. See Alice for details.
There is a difference between written in Greek and written by Greeks.
You clearly do not know enough to have a rational suspicion.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
You have endorsed the methodology and merely disagree on the details of application.
I await your calculations.
You have implied the real number is lower.
The issue is how much lower.
I calculate 27 million. Your calculation may result in as few as 15 million holocaust survivors in 1945.
I await your calculation.
My calculation stands unrefuted.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
I continue to await your demonstration of any ethnicity through application of your own conditions. To date, you have left me to conclude that you have constructed a straw man due to your inability to even attempt it.
It takes a village to raise an idiot.
Save a tree, eat a vegetarian.
Sometimes " The Majority " only means that all the fools are on the same side.
" I am talking about the evacuation of the Jews, the extermination of the Jewish people. It is one of those things that is easily said. "The Jewish people is being exterminated," every Party member will tell you, "perfectly clear, it's part of our plans, we're eliminating the Jews, exterminating them, a small matter. "
Heinrich Himmler, speech at Posen. Oct 4, 1943. Emphasis mine.
It takes a village to raise an idiot.
Save a tree, eat a vegetarian.
Sometimes " The Majority " only means that all the fools are on the same side.
As part of my German relatives lived in the German Black Sea Colonies near Norka, Russia I also was aware of this.
You apparently accept the NAZI propaganda of the invasion of Russia even though Hitler was clear in Mein Kamph what he had in mind. The plan was officially started over 6 months before in December 1940.
Do you work for Fox News?
Perhaps you missed my comment about Dresden, no you did see it but didn't get it.
I did, they didn't need to as the NAZIS had left plenty of havoc to be used. Many feet of ash, piles of dead, eyeglasses, etc.
So explain Eva Kor and the other surviving children held by the NAZIS? Were children a threat to his control?
Only survivors that made clear what had occurred. Photos were not the only evidence.
Unlike you I have no agenda to either attack or defend any group of people. The Germans were cruel and vicious in what they did as were the Russians. Killing whole groups of people including children in order to implement an ideology is horrendous.
You are still a child of the 1950s aren't you. You are using a Chinese communist computer as well as watching TV on a Chinese commie set. You eat Chinese commie food all the time.
Does this one show the US Army killing the guards?
Perhaps you have so little knowledge of the NAZI dictatorship or perhaps you see them as heroes as you feel the need to thank them for killing commies. The people of Germany were involved substantially in the forced takeover of countries and watched many people being dragged away to prison. They sat by and allowed it to happen and actively participated in it. There were some cases of German resistance (traitors who tried to kill Hitler).
You seem to be one that hold all Israelis responsible for killing Palestinian Hamas terrorists.
Only if we lose which thanks to physicists like you and engineers like me we can eradicate all of them with one missile. Of course instead we can continue to corrupt them with cell phones, technology, and other capitalist toys. It's worked very well in the past.
Such a short memory you have. "I have seen plenty of hatred of Christians and Muslims here. What is the difference? It is just another stupid religion suitable only for idiots."
You just did it again.
And again.
The UN, Britain, and the US were complicit before and after the fact in establishing the modern country called Israel and hence according to Hamas, apparently your brothers in arms since you consider attacks against them to be crimes, they should all be held accountable.
Since Jews don't exist what is an ordinary Jew?
And neither will the US government restore the land and property of the native American Indians. Are you suggesting that we, including you, should all go back to our counties of origin and give them back the US?
____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
Ah, insults. The last resort of a person whose arguments have been crushed.
I notice you still haven't answered how the Hebrew language could exist without Hebrews speaking it. Language, after all, is one of those things that binds a people together.
I look forward to future babbling from you. All of the brooks in my area are frozen over.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
By the way, folks... I'd just like to point out that everyone here will still think he's an idiot if he's just talking to himself...
(P.S. Don't feed the trolls)
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
In light of the above statement by Hamby advising members how best to respond to trolls ( by not responding ? ) I therefore find the continued and repeated interaction with the peckish and condescending Paisley by members of this same forum to be utterly insane. When it comes to trollish behavior Paisley makes this guy look like a fucking amateur.
Every few months Paisley comes back to argue ( and insult ) the atheist community and starts the same battle all over again, saying essentially the same shit over and over over, and some here seem to relish the experience. Cognitive dissonance anyone ?
Prozac,
Some people like familiar chew toys?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Prozac, on this I agree with you.
Paisley continues to recycle his same stuff over and over. He tries one method and then another presenting his robots of consciouness crap each time as remade, redone, or remixed. Yet it's no different than last year when some of us, including me were sucked into his world of condescending crap. There are many other forms of torture that provide at least a few seconds of pleasure before you slam you head into a wall.
____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
If that is the best you can do in rational discourse Socrates would have rightfully assigned you the job of passing the pisspot.
It started when I said Jews are followers of Judaism and thus an atheist, even the agnostic flavor, cannot be a Jew.
That remains unrefuted.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
The word Evaklarung is being translationed evacuating. The word Ausrottung is being translated as various forms of extermination. Ausrottung meand uprooting. I know a lot of people who were exterminated by their employer and moved to a new job in another city.
That Ausrottung only gets the meaning of 'exterminate' after WWII may have been the inspiration of Orwell's mention of the regular issue of official dictionaries to control the meaning of words. Obviously this has worked on you. Do you spend your fifteen minutes a day hating Goldstein? Or was it loving? I always get them confused.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
Says a person whose entire case rests upon trying to bludgeon people with his own made-up definitions...
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin