Strike the root!

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Strike the root!

There are supposedly 1.4 billion Christians in the world along with roughly 1.2 billion Muslims. Christianity depends directly upon the material in the Old Testament. Islam says the original message of the OT was correct but the Jews and the Christians got the message wrong. But in so saying it depends upon the validity of the messengers.

So the most economical use of one's time is to shoot down the Old Testament as in doing so it brings down 2.6 billion people worth of religions along with a few trivial millions of Jews who are really followers of Judaism rather than fake Jews who do not believe in the religion.

Anyone even pretending to the status of atheist can discredit the OT in their sleep. Genocide, ritual genital mutilation, animal sacrifice, public execution by stoning, insane laws (don't mix wool and linen), and a host of other things just begging to be ridiculed.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

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 Debunking the OT is

 Debunking the OT is mind-numbingly easy.  That's not the problem.  The problem is that none of these people care about what you have to say.  They start with the premise that the OT is true and anything idea otherwise was sent by satan.  We all know that the bible is full of crap, but yet there are still xians and muslims.


On a nit-picky note, I wouldn't discredit the bible by pointing out the horrible set of morals it introduces, because maybe their god exists and actually has those morals.  Having bad morals does not mean one doesn't exist.  If you are going to try and discredit the OT to a theist I think it's best to go after things that are just factually not even possible to be true, like creation, noah's arc, and the tower of bable stories.

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan

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Nony,This is exactly the


This is exactly the route that I take when debating with OT based religions. Attack the assumptions, and let the pieces fall as they may. I think that their biggest assumption is that their holy book is the infallible word of god. I'll start with the historical inaccuracies, move to the "moral" teachings, and discuss the possibility that the original Jewish religion may have been polytheistic in origin (I admit that this part is contested though, but I still like to bring it up because it throws them through a loop). Once I start on the polytheism note, I move on to the history of the book itself, then the evolution of the religion(s)... usually by that time they begin to ignore me. When put into this perspective (historically) it is much more difficult to defend that the book is the word of god... then they'll begin their defense by saying something like, "Well... men wrote it so it's not going to be perfect." And then, round and round we go...



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OT may be the root of those

OT may be the root of those religions, but its not the root of the problem.  Even if you can convince all of those people that the book they base their lives off of is full of shit, they are most likely going to just throw themselves into some other religion, or create their own.

I think what the root of the problem with religion is with the way people think about it.  I'm not going to say religious people are dumb because I know there are a lot of them much more intelligent than I.  I think the problem is more with they way they can take everything they hold so dear in their religious texts, and put it in a little box in the back of their minds, just so they know not to touch it when it comes to critical thinking.  They might be able to read a fantasy novel and realize that the magic that happens in the book isnt real, because theres no way anyone can just make a wall of water appear by willpower alone, or raise the dead with fairy dust.  But for some reason, that logic doesnt apply to whichever religion they subscribe too.  You can point that out to them all you want in their religious texts, but it's not going to make a difference, because its off limits to reality.

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Dray,The phrase you're


The phrase you're looking for is: 'cognitive dissonance'

When they know better, but choose to ignore it.


A corollary phrase is: 'willful ignorance'

When they do not know better, but refuse to learn as well.


I think it's important to know the base of any ideology before confronting it. However, it isn't the destruction of their 'biblical facts' that causes theists to vilify all others. it is merely the questions we ask that cause the cognitive dissonance and willful ignorance to 'click' in their minds. Eventually, one or both of those things can be short-circuited upon asking the right question of the individual. That's what causes the other person to start asking their own questions.



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They are all easy targets

Well Mr A. Nony-Mouse,

I completely agree. It is the perfect start point. It can bore a theist that has heard it argued by atheists before so sometimes you need to tailor the hits. Revelations is just dandy against Catholics. 300 million gods and living god statues is satay for Hindus. Oh there is so much to choose from. I love being an atheist.

If you are being gentle, avoid the term "ignorant". Theists are touch about their intelligence because they are......... they just are, ok. My Jewish girlfriend hates it.

Who would want to finish what they have said with the same thing everytime?

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I think the problem is

I think the problem is society's disposition to protect religion.  It's supposed to be respected and immune from criticism.  This allows people to continue believing despite overwhelming evidence.  We need to shift the public opinion and ensure that religion is just as criticizable as our political leaders' foreign policy, or a belief in elves.  Only then will pointing out the errors in the old testament work for a substantial number of people.


Also, eliminating the social hatred/fear of atheism would help a lot.

Questions for Theists:

I'm a bit of a lurker. Every now and then I will come out of my cave with a flurry of activity. Then the Ph.D. program calls and I must fall back to the shadows.