This stunned me.

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This stunned me.

I was actually speechless for more than a couple of minutes.

This cartoon is funny and pointed.  It really makes it so obvious that the stories should NEVER be taken literally...or even worthy of merit, you know?

Anyway, if you watch this whole cartoon, there is real footage of real people...it is THIS footage that stunned me.  I really had never seen this happening, and never thought of the physicalities of it.  It is SHOCKING to me that this was taught to me in sunday school as a kid.  I never THOUGHT about how terrible it was.  We discussed it as if it were NOTHING.  However, if thought about in reality, it is hardly humane. 

Really, I was stunned.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3JL3uMUd74

(sorry, I couldn't embed for some reason)

 

MOD EDIT: Embedded. -HD


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 Yeah, that actually

 Yeah, that actually happens, and yes, it's so terrible it defies description.

For those of you who are totally depressed right now after watching that, this one is fun:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGT25Oj-6rc

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What is it?  Government

What is it?  Government businesses block youtube so I can't view it.  Just a short description will do if at all.  Please!

BigUniverse wrote,

"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."


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Jesus fuck.That hurt."But

Jesus fuck.

That hurt.

"But Christianity is different! We don't stone people for simple infractions like that! Anymore."

"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers


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Thomathy wrote:What is it? 

Thomathy wrote:

What is it?  Government businesses block youtube so I can't view it.  Just a short description will do if at all.  Please!

Cartoon people:

"You worked on the sabbath! Oh noz!"

"I picked up sticks for a fire. It wasn't working. What did I do wrong?"

"Well, as God is a loving and all-just God, we will stone you to death. Oh, and another guy who got a bad haircut."

"Ahhhh!"

Short clip of real people being really stoned to death. For real.

"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers


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nigelTheBold wrote:Short

nigelTheBold wrote:

Short clip of real people being really stoned to death. For real.

Torturing to death your own people in a community. It's too much. I can't even express the repulsion I feel at that.

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HisWillness

HisWillness wrote:

nigelTheBold wrote:

Short clip of real people being really stoned to death. For real.

Torturing to death your own people in a community. It's too much. I can't even express the repulsion I feel at that.

Yeah. Too bad we don't have real morals from the only source of morality: God. Then just imagine how bad we'd feel.

"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers


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Finally I understand why

Finally I understand why theists don't like us and are afraid of us.

If people who have a moral code from GOD ALL POWERFUL-LOVING-KNOWING BEING are such cruel and horrible bastards. Then I can't imagine how horrible we are.

Laughing out loud


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 It's almost funny.  Well,

 It's almost funny.  Well, it would be funny if it wasn't awful.  Fanas, you hit it on the head, whether you meant to or not.  Christians believe (without evidence, of course) that morality comes only from God.  They see how horribly Christians behave, so logically, it stands to reason that atheists must act much worse since they don't have God.

Isn't it amazing how the tiniest little error in logic can have such horrible results?

 

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Hambydammit wrote:They see

Hambydammit wrote:

They see how horribly Christians behave, so logically, it stands to reason that atheists must act much worse since they don't have God.

Wow, I never even considered that. I assumed that they operated on some kind of "the devil you know is better than the one you don't" principle, but that's ... well, that's weird.

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nigelTheBold wrote:Thomathy

nigelTheBold wrote:

Thomathy wrote:

What is it?  Government businesses block youtube so I can't view it.  Just a short description will do if at all.  Please!

Cartoon people:

"You worked on the sabbath! Oh noz!"

"I picked up sticks for a fire. It wasn't working. What did I do wrong?"

"Well, as God is a loving and all-just God, we will stone you to death. Oh, and another guy who got a bad haircut."

"Ahhhh!"

Short clip of real people being really stoned to death. For real.

Thanks...  Killing people is pretty horrible.


 

BigUniverse wrote,

"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."


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 Until one sees how actual

 Until one sees how actual practice of the sick beliefs can actually harm people the believers will deny it occurs. Of course Christians no longer do this, they just strike you dead like Peter did to the two who lied about how much they got for the property they sold. And of course the stoning at the end of the clip must be Muslims, not Christians. After all Jesus came to replace the law of the OT. Except for the parts that believers want to keep to discriminate against others.

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Thomathy wrote:Thanks... 

Thomathy wrote:

Thanks...  Killing people is pretty horrible.

And this was particularly vulgar. Two people, huddled on the ground, arms over head, encircled by a mob, the members of which where throwing fist-size and larger rocks. Striking the two on the ground. Repeatedly.

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nigelTheBold wrote:And this

nigelTheBold wrote:
And this was particularly vulgar. Two people, huddled on the ground, arms over head, encircled by a mob, the members of which where throwing fist-size and larger rocks. Striking the two on the ground. Repeatedly.
Not to be trying to horrify folks, but to clarify:

They were not huddled on the ground. Sharia law requires the doomed to be wrapped in rough cloth (probably a light canvas in this case) and buried up to their waist to immobilize them.

This is utter barbarity, and it is totally beyond my ken how anyone can defend it.

 

"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray


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JillSwift wrote:Not to be

JillSwift wrote:

Not to be trying to horrify folks, but to clarify:

They were not huddled on the ground. Sharia law requires the doomed to be wrapped in rough cloth (probably a light canvas in this case) and buried up to their waist to immobilize them.

This is utter barbarity, and it is totally beyond my ken how anyone can defend it.

Gah! I was trying hard not to watch at that point. I didn't know that's what was happening.

Thanks (I think) for the clarification.

I'm gonna go be sick for a while.

"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers


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JillSwift wrote:Not to be

JillSwift wrote:

Not to be trying to horrify folks, but to clarify:

They were not huddled on the ground. Sharia law requires the doomed to be wrapped in rough cloth (probably a light canvas in this case) and buried up to their waist to immobilize them.

This is utter barbarity, and it is totally beyond my ken how anyone can defend it.

 

oh darlin', that doesn't need sharia law as an excuse; that seems to be typical tribal practice across the board.  i've just been reading the newest daniel boone biography (kentucky boy, after all) and some of the torture the shawnee used was very similar, or even worse.  i mean, i have indian ancestry (shawnee at that), and i'm usually one of the vocal ones about their treatment in american history, but i was horrified by much of what i read.  just read a description of the murder of daniel boone's son james if you want something to turn your stomach: having his fingernails pulled out while he screamed for his mother is just one highlight.  add to this the fact that north american indian religion on the whole was pretty vaguely formulated, animistic/pantheistic, and not exclusivist in any way, and you can see that religious fanaticism isn't necessarily a fundamental ingredient.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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 I can't remember the

 I can't remember the specifics of this, or if it generally applies to all muslims or just a particular sect, but I read somewhere that one of God's "tests" of innocence is that if you can manage to unbury yourself and run away that it's God's decree of your innocence.

Of course, when they stone women, they bury them to their shoulders so they don't get hit in the breasts.  Compassionate, aren't they?

Can anyone else verify or falsify this?  I don't feel like researching it.

 

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iwbiek wrote:oh darlin',

iwbiek wrote:
oh darlin', that doesn't need sharia law as an excuse; that seems to be typical tribal practice across the board.  i've just been reading the newest daniel boone biography (kentucky boy, after all) and some of the torture the shawnee used was very similar, or even worse.  i mean, i have indian ancestry (shawnee at that), and i'm usually one of the vocal ones about their treatment in american history, but i was horrified by much of what i read.  just read a description of the murder of daniel boone's son james if you want something to turn your stomach: having his fingernails pulled out while he screamed for his mother is just one highlight.  add to this the fact that north american indian religion on the whole was pretty vaguely formulated, animistic/pantheistic, and not exclusivist in any way, and you can see that religious fanaticism isn't necessarily a fundamental ingredient.

Excuse it? Bleh!

No, I mention Sharia law only because having read up on it is what made me aware of exactly what was going on in that very hard to see compression-artifact riddled video. Being of Sandia native American descent, and having studied our tribe's past, I know the horrors all humans are capable of over any number of motives. (The Spaniard's frustration at not being able to find a city made of gold in particular.)

 

"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray


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JillSwift wrote:Being of

JillSwift wrote:

Being of Sandia native American descent, and having studied our tribe's past 

that's really cool.  how far removed are you?  dad always says my great-grandfather was almost full-blooded cherokee and looked like one, too.  there are no photos so i don't know.  i'm not ready to claim any minority scholarships but dad always likes to play it up.  he never ceases to remind me i'm "part indian."  i have more cherokee than shawnee, i know that.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
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iwbiek wrote:that's really

iwbiek wrote:
that's really cool.  how far removed are you?  dad always says my great-grandfather was almost full-blooded cherokee and looked like one, too.  there are no photos so i don't know.  i'm not ready to claim any minority scholarships but dad always likes to play it up.  he never ceases to remind me i'm "part indian."  i have more cherokee than shawnee, i know that.
I'm a real mutt, so it's hard to say. Very removed I guess, but my mother and aunts and uncles on my mother's side all have "papers". Though I gather that paper isn't much more than an attempt by the tribe to boost its numbers.

There are a lot of Spanish, Mexican, Mescalero and Dine' folks on my mother's side of the tree. My father's side is filled with Scandinavians, Germans, French and some Brits.

 

"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray


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Eh.

Maybe I play too much Grand Theft Auto, but it wasn't that horrifying as far as graphic imagery goes. But I do agree that in an age in which you can record someone being stoned to death they couldn't come up with better reasons for doing so or for that matter, a more humane method.

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Hambydammit wrote: I can't

Hambydammit wrote:

 I can't remember the specifics of this, or if it generally applies to all muslims or just a particular sect, but I read somewhere that one of God's "tests" of innocence is that if you can manage to unbury yourself and run away that it's God's decree of your innocence.

Of course, when they stone women, they bury them to their shoulders so they don't get hit in the breasts.  Compassionate, aren't they?

Can anyone else verify or falsify this?  I don't feel like researching it.

 

I wonder if anyone actually succeeded to prove their innocence in such a way.

That's just impossible.


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JillSwift wrote:This is

JillSwift wrote:

This is utter barbarity, and it is totally beyond my ken how anyone can defend it.

They don't really need to defend their morality.  They just need to keep attacking everyone else’s morality so no one really looks at theirs.


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I have both Israeli & Arab

I have both Israeli & Arab customers & supplers (never shall product form one end up in the warehouse of the other without being processed in some way in the UK.)

From time to time, one will send me a propagandist-type email decrying the actions of the other in Israel or in Gaza. Photos & video (I've had the stoning in that clip sent to me before.)

I have had images of dead kids sent to me. The same images sent in 2 seperate emails, one from Israel describing the scene as the aftermath of a rocket attack on Israel, and one email from an Arab customer describing them as the aftermath of an Israeli Army attack in Gaza. Time period between receiving them being about 2 weeks, and the pictures were truly horrific.

The temptation to send the Arab email to Israel & vice versa, making the point that you can't tell if the kids were Arab or Israeli, was powerful but I resisted. Not my company, not my call to fuck up its business relationships. Cowardly, I know.

Would post copies, but have long deleted the mails. Not keen on keeping or disseminating pictures of violently killed kids.

Stop that... It's silly.


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PorkChop wrote:I was

PorkChop wrote:

I was actually speechless for more than a couple of minutes.

This cartoon is funny and pointed.  It really makes it so obvious that the stories should NEVER be taken literally...or even worthy of merit, you know?

Anyway, if you watch this whole cartoon, there is real footage of real people...it is THIS footage that stunned me.  I really had never seen this happening, and never thought of the physicalities of it.  It is SHOCKING to me that this was taught to me in sunday school as a kid.  I never THOUGHT about how terrible it was.  We discussed it as if it were NOTHING.  However, if thought about in reality, it is hardly humane. 

Really, I was stunned.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3JL3uMUd74

(sorry, I couldn't embed for some reason)

It is unfortunate they had stoning for working on the Sabbot when it degrades the same punishment for using wool and linen in the same piece of clothing. There are hundreds of idiot rules in the Torah. Natural religions do not have idiot rules for the priests to enforce with the death penalty for those who displease the priests with less than magnanimous free will donations.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

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Sadzaeater wrote:The

Sadzaeater wrote:

The temptation to send the Arab email to Israel & vice versa, making the point that you can't tell if the kids were Arab or Israeli, was powerful but I resisted. Not my company, not my call to fuck up its business relationships. Cowardly, I know.

Not really cowardly, just pragmatic. Would it really help? It's weird that they send you such inappropriate material to begin with. If they can't see that they're killing each other over nonsense (and missing the point entirely), I doubt you could clear that up for them. That, and you would most definitely get hassled at work for who knows how long. For what? So people could get even more upset about something they clearly don't understand? That's not cowardly, that sounds more like incredulity.

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HisWillness wrote:If they

HisWillness wrote:

If they can't see that they're killing each other over nonsense (and missing the point entirely), I doubt you could clear that up for them.

A one-line explanation of why the peace process in the middle east will be very difficult.

I'm glad religion gives them comfort, at least.

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Well said, Will.I think you

Well said, Will.

I think you are being facetious, Nigel.  And I agree.  What kind of 'comfortable' place created by some fictional story makes you feel so warm and fuzzy that you want to slaughter and maim a whole group of peoples just because 'someone says so'.  It's just redicarous.


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PorkChop wrote:Well said,

PorkChop wrote:

Well said, Will.

I think you are being facetious, Nigel.  And I agree.  What kind of 'comfortable' place created by some fictional story makes you feel so warm and fuzzy that you want to slaughter and maim a whole group of peoples just because 'someone says so'.  It's just redicarous.

I'm often facetious. It gives me more comfort than religion. And, irony is a very compact form of communication.

I was completely serious about Will "hitting the nail on the head," as it were, as he called out in one sentence both the specific troubles in the Middle East, and the general issue of religion.

Ah. "Peaceful" religions that cause you to kill others not of your peaceful religion. UR doin it rong.

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PorkChop wrote:It's just

PorkChop wrote:

It's just redicarous.

Totarry.


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Ouch, ouch, OUCH!!! Please

Ouch, ouch, OUCH!!!

 

Please tell me that footage is at least two decades removed from the present. People can't still be being stoned to death by gleeful mobs in my generation, can they?

How do you do that? How do you convince a group of social animals, who have had the smarts necessary to make footfalls on the moon, that they should hurl boulders at a member of their own community because said member was trying to help them?

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

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Kevin R Brown wrote:Ouch,

Kevin R Brown wrote:

Ouch, ouch, OUCH!!!

 

Please tell me that footage is at least two decades removed from the present. People can't still be being stoned to death by gleeful mobs in my generation, can they?

How do you do that? How do you convince a group of social animals, who have had the smarts necessary to make footfalls on the moon, that they should hurl boulders at a member of their own community because said member was trying to help them?

The answer lies within the social instincts themselves.

 

 

"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray


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JillSwift wrote:

JillSwift wrote:

Kevin R Brown wrote:

Ouch, ouch, OUCH!!!

 

Please tell me that footage is at least two decades removed from the present. People can't still be being stoned to death by gleeful mobs in my generation, can they?

How do you do that? How do you convince a group of social animals, who have had the smarts necessary to make footfalls on the moon, that they should hurl boulders at a member of their own community because said member was trying to help them?

The answer lies within the social instincts themselves.

 

 

I saw a video on that in Psychology class. Have you heard of the Stanford prison experiment? There were normal, mentally and physically healthy people put into an actual prison (some were guards, some were prisoners) and told to behave as if they would in a normal jail. The guards took on sadistic tendencies and some of the prisoners had mental breakdowns. They had to cut the study short from 2 weeks to 6 days. It's a similar group mentality.

 

*Our world is far more complex than the rigid structure we want to assign to it, and we will probably never fully understand it.*

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peppermint wrote: JillSwift

peppermint wrote:

JillSwift wrote:

Kevin R Brown wrote:

Ouch, ouch, OUCH!!!

 

Please tell me that footage is at least two decades removed from the present. People can't still be being stoned to death by gleeful mobs in my generation, can they?

How do you do that? How do you convince a group of social animals, who have had the smarts necessary to make footfalls on the moon, that they should hurl boulders at a member of their own community because said member was trying to help them?

The answer lies within the social instincts themselves.

I saw a video on that in Psychology class. Have you heard of the Stanford prison experiment? There were normal, mentally and physically healthy people put into an actual prison (some were guards, some were prisoners) and told to behave as if they would in a normal jail. The guards took on sadistic tendencies and some of the prisoners had mental breakdowns. They had to cut the study short from 2 weeks to 6 days. It's a similar group mentality.

I used that study as well as other studies on group behavior in a paper on street-gang member rehabilitation. Scary stuff when you first look at it.

One of the aspects of the Stanford experiment that is most interesting, I think, to us freethinker atheist types is the mechanism by which the "Prisoner 819" incident came to a head, with his refusal to see a preist and request for a doctor instead. The authority of the "guards" - who were already being astonishingly sadistic in thier authoritarianism - being given a significant boost by the presence of the religious authority who played into the intimidation of the poor fellow.

Anyone who is interested in a close look at this experiment in an accessable book should read "Lucifer Effect: Understanding How Good People Turn Evil" by Philip G. Zimbardo (the fellow who ran the Stanford prison experiment).

"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray


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Quote:“The new

Quote:

“The new participants were reminded repeatedly that they could stop at any time…”

Which makes these results so much more appalling. “Baaa!” Apparently, we are sheep with no sense of responsibility or accountability. How sad.

I'm afraid I have to agree with the quoted comment, which more or less summarizes the results of both experiments.

 

If I may speculate, I think that perhaps the Stanford experiment demonstrates the importance of irony & facetiousness. How much different would the outcome have been, I wonder, if people had really acted on these impulses.

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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Uh. Wait. Isn't there an

Uh. Wait.

 

Isn't there an awfully big bias flaw in the electroshock tests, given that only people at least somewhat interested in delivering electric shocks to other people would've volunteered for it anyway?

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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Kevin R Brown wrote:Uh.

Kevin R Brown wrote:

Uh. Wait.

 

Isn't there an awfully big bias flaw in the electroshock tests, given that only people at least somewhat interested in delivering electric shocks to other people would've volunteered for it anyway?

IIRC, the study called for people to "help in an experiment to improve learning skills", and never mentioned any particulars. Also, to get a nice cross-section, some studies call from a pool of people who signed up for "whatever" (though not in this case, I don't think).


 

"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray


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Ah. My disappointment

Ah. My disappointment deepens. Sticking out tongue

 

'Baaa!' indeed.


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Oh, and in afterthought:The

Oh, and in afterthought:

The earlier shock experiment had just under 20 percent of it's participants terminate the shockings of their own volition, while the latter shock experiment had about 30 percent of it's participants do the same. There's your growing atheist population right there, amirite? Sticking out tongue

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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peppermint wrote:There were

peppermint wrote:

There were normal, mentally and physically healthy people put into an actual prison 

What's really scary about this is that they weren't in an actual prison. They were in the basement of a Stanford building, and Phil Zimbardo was the "warden". It took a masters student to tell him that it had already gotten out of control. Phil's girlfriend at the time (later wife) had to point out to him that the experiment was inhumane.

We learn a lot more about Phil than anything else, here. He later went on to self-aggrandize and publish widely on the fame of that one study. As far as I've read, Phil's still impressed with himself. Now, I think there are ethical rules against this sort of thing. Thanks, Phil.

Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence