My opinions ( kind of long) [MOVED to AvT]

Posts: 20
Joined: 2008-12-11
User is offlineOffline
My opinions ( kind of long) [MOVED to AvT]

My attempt with this post is to provoke thought.  I’m just trying to get people to maintain and opened and an unbiased view in some since, which I know is virtually impossible but just try to bare with me here.  I try to disassociate myself from religion or any thing that encompasses  its rituals, behaviors or ideologies! I do however believe that there are a lot of good moralities and possible inspirations that can be attained from some of the literature. I don’t agree with it but there can be some good taken from it.  

Let me first start off by saying that its my opinion religion is nothing more then a system of social control. Its bigotry and constant realms of hypocrisy are endless. Being religious automatically sets up separation between people.  Religious segregation has lead to millions of murders ,deaths, injustices and unmoral behavior for 100‘s of years.  All of these actions and inhumane acts are justified how?
 “ God told me to do it.”

These types of things most of you can probably agree upon.   What I’m going to try and  present here is an idea of an open mind and further prevention of division while also bringing about a different context to what others have called “ God.” Being atheist or calling yourself atheist brings about distance from other people apposed to your views just as religion does. Granted there have been no mass murders or blood thirsty acts in the name of ATHEISIM. However It is my belief that this type of separation brings about nothing more than fear and hostility to the opposed .  This self perpetuating and repetitious  behavior has caused substantial division and unkind acts between a lot of people in this world.  Everyone is so persistent on  ripping each other apart that there missing the big picture to what is really important, and that is UNITY!  Coming together for the betterment of our world and further advancement of our species should be the primary goal here. Now I know your probably thinking… “ this guys is full of shit and this will never happen because religious people are never going to change because of their “divine” belief. This is very true but its my opinion that engaging others with a open mind and less hostile nature is what we should be after. I know that not every atheist has a hostile stance towards opposing views but the majority are. I think this might come from the oppressive nature of being considered an atheist…always feeling like you’re the under dog in a since. Don’t get me wrong this hostile stance can be said for the opposing view as well. Taking action and trying to promote a more openness and less defensive nature to  your view will probably  be more effective in the long run when debating and rebuttal are necessary.  For example the ABC debate awhile back seemed to anger people rather then provoke thought to a different perspective. The whole purpose of a debate is to some how persuade an opposing view. It became a boxing match rather then an intellectual discussion. The example to best approach these further debates can best be exemplified  by a Doctor King/Gandhi-esk approach. This might be the best way to go about It. Just an idea to roll around.

On that note you probably have gotten the impression that I am not an atheist. This is correct, I fall more on the lines of an agnostic but leaning more towards a belief in “ God.” Although my context Is very different.  Do I believe in the pearly gates or kicking back up in the clouds with good old JC after I die?…..No. I don’t believe a volcano birthed me, nor do I believe in Mohamed  or a cow, so on and so forth. To be honest I don’t know what to believe, I would like to think that after we die we some how get a chance to experience the universe and all of its  unknowns. That would be pretty cool I think. For some reason I want to believe that there is more to life then just  living. This might be a naïve approach but that’s just where I’m kind of at right now. I’m open to many possibilities and hope as I get older my philosophy will evolve into something smarter and maybe more practical. An atheist’s biggest argument is how do you know there is a god?  What is the proof? My answer is, I don’t know, and I have no physical evidence.  My counter argument is how do you know that there is not a God or being, or creator or whatever. Our perception of this world and universe has expanded tremendously, we have discovered things that we didn’t know existed. Our ability to learn and continue to learn is the key here.  I guess my only hope is that after we die we will finally get to know all the answers to all the unknown questions. Call that believing in a God, after life or whatever because your guess is as good as mine. My point is that we are constantly learning new things about our existence all the time. Why be closed minded and  pigeon hold yourself to just one belief. Let us strive for the unknown, the future and to always have an open mind to new possibility. Once again these are just my thoughts/opinions.  I’m going to assume that I might catch some hostility here but will welcome any intelligent rebuttals, arguments and disagreements.  However I will not debate with ignorant or hateful comments.

I wish everyone well, and GOD BLESS….hahaha just kidding, come on you gotta have a little fun!


butterbattle's picture
Posts: 3945
Joined: 2008-09-12
User is offlineOffline
Excellent opening post.

Excellent opening post. Welcome! Feel free to explore.

It appears that you're in almost exactly the same predicament that I traveled over a couple of years ago. I teetered on the fence for a long time and nearly became an agnostic theist. However, I'm now, again, changing back into a pretty staunch atheist. 

Considering your position, there are a few more things I would like to mention. 

1) When I was struggling with religion, I always thought of it as, "My brain says no, but my heart says yes." Is this a valid description of your position? Note, that at this time, I didn't possess the huge sack of intellectual ammo that I wield today. But, back on topic, you *want* to believe in God, correct? Why? Think about it.

2) It's misleading to equate theism with atheism in virtually any form because one is the proponent and the other is simply the lack of. Atheism only exists because theism is so rampant. There are no a-Santa Clausists or a-Unicornists.

3) Holding the position that God doesn't exist doesn't entail that you're a closed-minded and possess 100% certainly on the subject. You know that unicorns don't exist, but if you were presented with compelling evidence, you would accept reality without much protest at all, right? Of course, and you will find that this is the position of virtually every person on this forum. Instead, it is usually the theist that claims that he/she will cling to beliefs even when they contradict the evidence.





Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare

High Level DonorRational VIP!SuperfanGold Member
Jeffrick's picture
Posts: 2446
Joined: 2008-03-25
User is offlineOffline
welcome to the forums.


      I'm an atheist,  devout atheist.  But if you have some proof, any viable evidence of a supreme being I will listen to it, I will evaluate your evidence and I may; if it's good evidence:  reconsider how much of an atheist I realy am/ or am not. After 50 + years I have not heard anything yet to change my mind,  but if you have or know of some solid evidence please show me.   I live to learn something new;  please show me something new,  so I may learn.

"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."

VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"

If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?

Posts: 20
Joined: 2008-12-11
User is offlineOffline
Let me first apologize on

Let me first apologize on the double post. Its the same post but with two different titles, one is titled my opinion and the other is God and division. I haven't figured out how to delete this one we are currently talking about.


Butterbattle I really enjoyed your reply. You bring up some really great points.


I think i really need to use a different context here. My initial intentions were to do so but ended up refraining in order to help clarify my standing.  I don't necessarily believe or want to believe in "God" I'm just hoping for some sort of after life. An after life that allows us to discover some of the unknowns and questions that we have about our world and universe. My definition is not of the historical context associated with God or afterlife, more of my own kind of philosophy.


When I say close minded I'm referring to the closed off nature to other peoples views and perspectives. Dissociating yourself from others only allows for more negative probabilities to occur.



To answer the other reply. I never said I had evidence that there was a god. I said I was leaning more towards the belief that there might be. I think i really should have refrained from using the word god now that I look back. It complicates my argument.




Diagoras23's picture
Posts: 77
Joined: 2008-11-25
User is offlineOffline
To Explain the Angry Atheist

Hello Discus70,


I am an atheist.


That is a challenging post well done. I don’t wish to comment much on your personal beliefs, only to say that non-literal Christians often stray into agnostic territory. I encourage your inquiring mind.


I do need to briefly address the age old “you can not prove god exists” vs “you can not prove he does not”. This is a simple one that I hope you move through. Do you spend your life believing in the infinite and ridiculous list of things that can not be disproved, as fact? I do not mean to be patronising but this is not a useful approach, in fact if you think like that and you are in a position of influence, you are dangerous.


You raised an excellent point regarding the usefulness of a hostile approach from atheists.  This is a significant problem for me because I often feel raw hate for the religious. For me personally it is rooted in the abuse of power. I will assume I don’t need to list them (happy to if you wish), but there are many examples historically.


I serve in the military in a leadership position. The religious culture in many militaries is sickening to me. They make military tactical decisions based on religious guidance, the most often being revenge, and they never fail to make a righteous mess of it resulting in more deaths. They have no reason, just religious justification. At low levels across the globe religious military commanders are making decisions on if they should strike that village or attack that convoy or kill that man or launch that raid, based on religious determinants. The US is one of the worst. Praise the lord and pass the ammunition. No such thing as an atheist in war? That is why I am out spoken and aggressive regarding religion in my work place. Religious soldiers under my command normally have a tough time of it, and I make no apologies. I have no time in war to stand next to, and trust a soldier who in my opinion is completely irrational. Devout religious soldiers are highly dangerous, unpredictable, and more likely to commit war crimes in the heat of battle. Generally speaking atheist soldiers are far better for reasons obvious and proven to me. It is the commanders that worry me more, and I must say that for some of them, I hate them.


So I reply with a question of my own to the general community here.  Am I justified in my aggressive approach? Is it counterproductive? Or is it time to take the fight to them? A silent atheist revolution may not be an option, shouldn’t we be out spoken and strong and see theism as something to be defeated? To arms?


If I hit discus70 with my aggressive demeaning arguments we may loose him (acknowledged that this may not even be the best way to think about the whole thing), but on many occasions it has been very heated discussions that have turned others around.


PS I will give you $5 if you become an atheist.


Who would want to finish what they have said with the same thing everytime?

Posts: 20
Joined: 2008-12-11
User is offlineOffline
I am deeply humbled.

I am deeply humbled. Responses such as yours make me think full for even coming aboard here.


If you don't mind I would like to help answer a couple of your questions. Would you be justified? I think so. Would it be counter productive? Yes. Being aggressive towards religious people will only further there bull shit story of Good and Evil.  They'll tell other members of the community that your the devil or the devil is trying to attach them or whatever the excuse  may be. Being aggressive only reiterates their belief system. I think the best way to go about it is to attach with extrema literal precision. You have to be very careful. You have to come off as a better person then they are. Show a kind heart, show politeness. Then after people finally get the impression that atheists are not evil "devil" worshiping monsters you rip there ideology apart in a constructive manner. Point out all the negative attachments to religion all the bad things that have been done in the name of religion. Show religious people that atheist can be more loving and kind then any other religious authority they have ever known.  Those are just my thoughts anyway.



I have no evidence of god. I've never claimed to have any at all.  Perhaps I shouldn't use the word god. For me personally there is this deep down reasoning. I base my reasoning on what I can see. All the beauty in this world, the emotional connectedness that we have as people, the complexity of the universe and much more. This does get written off as just simple observation. To me its inconceivable to view the world objectively in reference to having no after life or meaning. These are just my opinions. My soul intention with my post was to promote openness to help prevent further separation. I feel that I might have failed in doing so because just about every reply i get back with "Give me proof of God." My goal was not to convince people that there was. I only stated the obvious, which is there are people who believe in a deity and that there are not. How can we help break down the buries to further progress?

High Level DonorModeratorRRS Core Member
Hambydammit's picture
Posts: 8657
Joined: 2006-10-22
User is offlineOffline
 discus, I'd appreciate it

 discus, I'd appreciate it if you'd read an article I wrote.  It's pretty in depth and lengthy, so it won't offend me if you take your time and reread it a couple of times.

For New Atheists: Is This Really All There Is?



Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
Books about atheism