Question for atheists

chuckg6261982
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Question for atheists

If I decided one day to kidnap a little girl, rape her... then tie her up and torture her.... kill her by burning her in a fire... take her burnt up corpse and wrap it in a bag... and then throw her in the river.........

On what basis do you say that what I did was wrong?


Zaq
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the_ficus wrote:Okay so the

the_ficus wrote:

Okay so the discussion here is about morality and whether or not it exists outside religious pretexts. The answer here seems to be an uncontested yes. (in My opinion). Now with this idea of morality being established in the individual for the benefit of sociaty and the human race I would like to bring up another question.

If some one conforms to a religion and the belief in a diety, is that person morally wrong or right?

 

 

If a deity requires its followers to worship it (the case for most deities) then that deity is, in my mind, tyrannical.  I feel tyranny is immoral, as is supporting tyranny.  So yes, I would say that person is morally wrong.

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Quote:  Okay so the

Quote:
 

Okay so the discussion here is about morality and whether or not it exists outside religious pretexts. The answer here seems to be an uncontested yes. (in My opinion). Now with this idea of morality being established in the individual for the benefit of sociaty and the human race I would like to bring up another question.

If some one conforms to a religion and the belief in a diety, is that person morally wrong or right? 

 

Amoral. One religious belief can promote good morality while another one can promote the bad. But to say that all is good or bad is incorrect. For instance, you could say in a generalized manner books are moral or immoral. But you do not take into account what book it is, what it entails, and what it promotes, so you would lump Dr. Suess in with Mein Komf.

 

The main point is, it depends on the religion, and it is specific to what it entails and promotes in people. And the theist is morally wrong or right depending on their own actions, not their beliefs.

 


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Wow! Even your Jesus hated hypocrites...

Did this guy just prove that the "god-fearing" wouldn't know this was wrong unless a book told them so?  That's more than a little frightening.  No wonder about the priest-baby-rapers...they figure they can just do a few Hail Marys and get off the hook to do so again, and again, and again.  And really, a Christian asking what would be wrong with burning a girl (and/or women) in a fire?  Um, has he heard about the Inquisition?  The Crusades?  Salem?  Any of that?  Apparently not.  Chuckg6261982, bible-thumpers such as yourself have been doing what you describe for CENTURIES whilst telling us we're the sinners.  The only rule of pagans is "Harm none" (and was long before your Jesus even existed) and your people kidnapped and killed them by fire for that (often after gang-raping them); put that in your hypocritical pipe and smoke it. 

And what's up with the details...this sounds more like a flashback than a hypothetical.  What have you done, Chuckg6261982?!?!?  And what river did you throw that little girl into?  We all know what your kind are capable of...  

 


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chuckg6261982 wrote:If I

chuckg6261982 wrote:

If I decided one day to kidnap a little girl, rape her... then tie her up and torture her.... kill her by burning her in a fire... take her burnt up corpse and wrap it in a bag... and then throw her in the river.........

On what basis do you say that what I did was wrong?

It wouldn't be nice.


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chuckg6261982 wrote:If I

chuckg6261982 wrote:

If I decided one day to kidnap a little girl, rape her... then tie her up and torture her.... kill her by burning her in a fire... take her burnt up corpse and wrap it in a bag... and then throw her in the river.........

On what basis do you say that what I did was wrong?

Morality is based upon human instinct. It is human instinct to want to live, happily. But, in order for me to live happily, there has to be a moral code that prevents people from infringing upon my ability to do so. I would also have to respect that moral code, because if I break it I become a hypocrite and people would be justified in taking action against me.

Thus, it is wrong to kidnap, rape, hold somebody against their will, torture, kill, and desecrate, all because if I do so, then I make it okay for others to do so against me.

 

I believe the religious form of this would be "do unto others as you would have them do unto you".


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I don't believe this thread

I don't believe this thread has been adequately responded to yet.


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treat2 wrote:I don't believe

treat2 wrote:
I don't believe this thread has been adequately responded to yet.

Can you tell me why my explanation is inadequate?

And why don't you respond yourself?


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QUESTION FOR ATHEISTS

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmm.........

 

Common Sense Moron!!

 

Besides...... Sounds to me like you have some twisted thoughts in the first place. In order to even ask this kind of question takes thinking. Seems like you've been thinking about it.

 

Everyone keepan eye on your kids around this Bible Humper!

 

D.S.

Thanks,
Dirty Sanchez


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Well first you hurt and

Well first you hurt and traumatised an innocent human being who has done nothing to provoke you in any way and have killed them for that reason, which is cruel meaningless and thus you deserve the same fate, but even though you deserve it, I nor anyone else would administer that punishment for the same reason as that it is cruel and meaningless. By the way if you asked for forgiveness to ' the lord Jesus Chrst' would you be elidgible for heaven? Moreover if that little girl was an athiest at the time, would she go straight to hell?


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chuckg6261982 wrote:If I

chuckg6261982 wrote:

If I decided one day to kidnap a little girl, rape her... then tie her up and torture her.... kill her by burning her in a fire... take her burnt up corpse and wrap it in a bag... and then throw her in the river.........

On what basis do you say that what I did was wrong?

 

on the basis of common sense and natural empathy. Morals are based on suffering and happiness. When you cause another animal's suffering you are morally wrong period. the more suffering the more wrong you are. 


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The older I get

 

the more morally accomplished I get - same as my friends and family. And this leads me to contend that morality is not some inherent thing but it's learned and polished all our lives long. There's a reason some old people are so incandescent in their goodness and integrity. They've been in class a long time. Think of your own journey. Think of being a selfish kid who could only think of one person. Think of the lessons who learned when you hurt other people and they hurt you. Think of the lessons you learned when you have children and you had to put your immediate self to one side. I think humans are a work in progress. Morality is not some god-given on/off switch. 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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chuckg6261982 wrote:pablotar

chuckg6261982 wrote:

pablotar wrote:

 You're just saying morality comes from god, right?

With out god there's nothing keeping us from doing stuff like that, right?

Is that the only thing that keeps YOU from doing that?

No, I never said any of these things.

I'd like for you to answer the question.

 Do you need to say it? You can just suggest or imply things, like you have here, and don't deny it because it is obvious. If you aren't then why ask atheists themselves?

P.S I have answered the question.


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chuckg6261982 wrote:If I

chuckg6261982 wrote:

If I decided one day to kidnap a little girl, rape her... then tie her up and torture her.... kill her by burning her in a fire... take her burnt up corpse and wrap it in a bag... and then throw her in the river.........

On what basis do you say that what I did was wrong?

 

That fact you caused that little girl tremendous pain and took a life when yours wasn't in danger, duh. Weak "point", try another.

Besides your God doesn't find it wrong, read the Old Testament. Hell(no pun intended) isn't that similar to what the Spaniards did to the Natives?

PSN:Hybrid-D_91 aka All American Atheist. The 18 yr old(soon to be 19) human that likes Rap and Rock. Oh yeah, God plays Killzone 2.


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chuckg6261982 wrote:What if

chuckg6261982 wrote:

What if causing harm didn't hurt the overall survival of civilizations?  Would causing harm then be permissible?

I hope you see the danger in presenting empirical evidence for morality.

Are you even reading these questions you're asking? That a society that permits its members to freely murder one another is inherently self-destructive is about as obvious as it gets.


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chuckg6261982 wrote:If I

chuckg6261982 wrote:

If I decided one day to kidnap a little girl, rape her... then tie her up and torture her.... kill her by burning her in a fire... take her burnt up corpse and wrap it in a bag... and then throw her in the river.........

On what basis do you say that what I did was wrong?

This question is so stupid.  I'm so tired of this argument for morality.  What makes obviously wrong things wrong?  The awnser is obvious, and its such a bad argument I think people here have done a good job explaining it. 


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Such a nasty post.  Why all

Such a nasty post.  Why all the horror, a simple "if I raped someone" would have surely sufficed.  Theists, always with their unnecessary over violent imagery. 


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not another christian trying to

make yet another lousy attempt at appearing to have a superior moral system.

As it has already been pointed out, we see horrors condoned in the bible by God.

Furthermore, we see nothing superior about the 10 commandments. If theists would like to take each one of them and look closely at them, there is absolutely nothing in there that is superior. If a thiest would like to challenge that, please do clarify which would be.Finally, christians themselves can't seem to agree with each other about what things are essential. Since christians find their morality to be based on God, then why do christians still grapple with things amoung themselves on many issues?

Issues vary from extremely petty to what could be considered serious in nature depending on one's theology. How is that Holy Spirit communicating so many different moral viewpoints to you all?

Disagreement on divorce/remarriage

Disagreement on war

Disagreement on birth control

Disagreement on abortion, euthanasia, stem cell research and other related topics

Disagreement on ordination of women, positions on homosexuality and subcategories under that topic

Disagreement on proper worship of God, interpretation of texts, and what to do if one violates a commandment

The list is endless, and I for one will not sit back and take any christian seriously when they are in such a dissary themselves while standing on a pedastal claiming high moral ground victory while this is still going on and will continue to go on with no end in sight.

If christianity helps you to be less of a burden to society by keeping you from doing things like what you ask about in your OP, then I guess you need to examine why it does.


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Atheism cannot account for

Atheism cannot account for morality.

If God does not exist, then there is no real reason why a society should not be allowed to place certain groups of people in concentration camps.


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People who lack empathy do

People who lack empathy do have brains that operate differently to those that do:

http://ccsn.uchicago.edu/events/Decety_BiologicalPsy2008.pdf 

 

Isn't "evilness" (I assume you're talking about a lack of empathy) a symptom?

 

I personally think that the idea of punishment is morally bankrupt and shouldn't exist in our legal system, the purposes of a justice system should be limited to rehabilitation, deterrence and separating them from society to stop them from doing other "evil" things.


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Fortunate_Son wrote:Atheism

Fortunate_Son wrote:

Atheism cannot account for morality.

If God does not exist, then there is no real reason why a society should not be allowed to place certain groups of people in concentration camps.

They just keep regurgitating out poop cliches.  Does it ever stop? Does it matter what you say?  Is their even a point with these people?  I don't know anymore.

 

Do you need your god to tell you it's not ok to put people in concentration camps, I don't.  My morality comes from within me, I don't need a book to tell me what's right and wrong. 


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NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:They

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:

They just keep regurgitating out poop cliches.  Does it ever stop? Does it matter what you say?  Is their even a point with these people?  I don't know anymore.

Then perhaps Brian Sapient should shut down this website?

Quote:
Do you need your god to tell you it's not ok to put people in concentration camps, I don't.  My morality comes from within me, I don't need a book to tell me what's right and wrong. 

Your morality comes from within you because despite your fallen nature, God's moral law is still written upon your heart. 


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fcaustic wrote:People who

fcaustic wrote:

People who lack empathy do have brains that operate differently to those that do

And if we look hard enough, we can find that people who like bananas probably have brains that operate differently than those of people who like papaya.

Quote:
I personally think that the idea of punishment is morally bankrupt and shouldn't exist in our legal system, the purposes of a justice system should be limited to rehabilitation, deterrence and separating them from society to stop them from doing other "evil" things.

The purpose of a justice system is to make restitution for evil.  This is intrinsic in the definition of "justice", which contains the idea of morality. 

JUSTICE: the moral principle determining just conduct, the quality of being just; righteousness, equitableness, or moral rightness.

Rehabilitating someone does not make amends for the evil things someone has done, it merely fixes the person who has done wrong.

Deterrence also does not make amends for the evil that was done.  It is simply a mechanism for keeping society stable, as is separating them from society.  Society will be in order, but the scales of justice will not.

Punishment ensures that evil is atoned for.  This and only this is what offers a sense of righteousness for those who have lost something truly valuable to the horrible product of someone's free choice.

 


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I see you decided to ignore my post on your OP

I'd be interested in a response to my post to your OP, but I expect it will not be forthcoming.

To answer your post here:

1) Atheism does not account for morality, nor does pantheism, or any other "ism" Because, as I pointed out to you in my post it does not matter what your label is in society, you will still end up making decisions that may or may not line up with your label. Christians can not claim their morality is the gold standard nor is any bit of it original at all.

2) God's existance is "known" to you. Therefore you hate all the same people he does. That's a lot of people my friend. And, your community as a whole has put segments of society over the years in what could be called social concentration camps by endorsing slavery, and attempting to stop homosexuals from having the same legal rights as everyone else has. You may or may not also be discriminating against men with beards, women who don't cover their heads, and a multitude of other things far to long to list here within your own bubble. As long as you feel you are doing these things with the permission of God, there is no end in sight to the numbers of people you can attempt to shove your version of morality upon. We are simply here to stop you from that tyranny.


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If you believe in God...

And you believe he is going to dispense the ultimate justice, then why do you even wish to take on his job by supporting any laws to ensure proper order in society? Concievably, any chrisitan could simply wave their hands in the air and say, God will take care of that guy. No need to put him in jail. Unless, they also have their doubts about God existing, deep within themselves.


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StrawberryJam wrote:I'd be

StrawberryJam wrote:

I'd be interested in a response to my post to your OP, but I expect it will not be forthcoming.

To answer your post here:

1) Atheism does not account for morality, nor does pantheism, or any other "ism" Because, as I pointed out to you in my post it does not matter what your label is in society, you will still end up making decisions that may or may not line up with your label. Christians can not claim their morality is the gold standard nor is any bit of it original at all.

2) God's existance is "known" to you. Therefore you hate all the same people he does. That's a lot of people my friend. And, your community as a whole has put segments of society over the years in what could be called social concentration camps by endorsing slavery, and attempting to stop homosexuals from having the same legal rights as everyone else has. You may or may not also be discriminating against men with beards, women who don't cover their heads, and a multitude of other things far to long to list here within your own bubble. As long as you feel you are doing these things with the permission of God, there is no end in sight to the numbers of people you can attempt to shove your version of morality upon. We are simply here to stop you from that tyranny.

 

(1) Morality has nothing to do with our ability to be consistent with the laws themselves.  Christianity is possibly the only religion which acknowledges this.

(2) Actually, God does not hate anybody.  Hating another person is against God's law and God cannot violate his own laws.  He does hate sin, however.  The rest of what you've written contains oversimplications of old social norms and contemporary political issues.  The bible never endorses slavery-- allowing it and not saying that it is bad does not amount to an endorsement.  The physical punishment of slaves was permitted.  Forcing a person to be your slave was prohibited.  Hence, the bible is neutral on the entire issue but does give guidelines for how to handle an institution that is already in place.  Christianity does not forbid homosexuals from their legal rights, but it does forbid them from hijacking the term "marriage" in order to avoid getting their feelings hurt.  People are free to be sinners.  There are plenty of things which are against God's law but not against man's civil law.  Homosexuality is one of those things.  But we are not going to sanctify it or normalize it under the banner of political correctness.

Anyway, this stuff about Christianity is a diversion.  Christianity aside, if God does not exist, then everything is permitted.


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Fortunate_Son wrote:Your

Fortunate_Son wrote:

Your morality comes from within you because despite your fallen nature, God's moral law is still written upon your heart. 

Holy poop cliches batman!!!


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StrawberryJam wrote:And you

StrawberryJam wrote:

And you believe he is going to dispense the ultimate justice, then why do you even wish to take on his job by supporting any laws to ensure proper order in society? Concievably, any chrisitan could simply wave their hands in the air and say, God will take care of that guy. No need to put him in jail. Unless, they also have their doubts about God existing, deep within themselves.

Only God enforces His own laws.  We do not.  Sin is against God and only God.  When you sin, you are accountable to Him and nobody else.

That leaves us responsible to deal with finite transgressions which affect us temporarily.  When we put someone in jail for murder, we do not place him there because he violated God's law.  We place him there because he violated our laws.  We thus balance our own injustices.  When creating a legal system, we can use God's law as a guiding post, but we have to recognize that we cannot please God by our works.  We cannot atone for sin, only God can.  Plus, to put other people in danger by allowing killers to roam the street would itself be a sin to God. 


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Fortunate_Son

Fortunate_Son wrote:

StrawberryJam wrote:

And you believe he is going to dispense the ultimate justice, then why do you even wish to take on his job by supporting any laws to ensure proper order in society? Concievably, any chrisitan could simply wave their hands in the air and say, God will take care of that guy. No need to put him in jail. Unless, they also have their doubts about God existing, deep within themselves.

Only God enforces His own laws.  We do not.  Sin is against God and only God.  When you sin, you are accountable to Him and nobody else.

That leaves us responsible to deal with finite transgressions which affect us temporarily.  When we put someone in jail for murder, we do not place him there because he violated God's law.  We place him there because he violated our laws.  We thus balance our own injustices.  When creating a legal system, we can use God's law as a guiding post, but we have to recognize that we cannot please God by our works.  We cannot atone for sin, only God can.  Plus, to put other people in danger by allowing killers to roam the street would itself be a sin to God. 

God enforces his own laws? Is this a fancy way of saying that he is a law unto himself so whatever he happens to decide to do is lawful?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


Zaq
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Fortunate_Son wrote:Atheism

Fortunate_Son wrote:

Atheism cannot account for morality.

If God does not exist, then there is no real reason why a society should not be allowed to place certain groups of people in concentration camps.

 

When a society segments groups of people it inhibits diverse genetic recombination which in turn inhibits its ability to evolve, which in turn inhibits its ability to survive as a society.

When a society oppresses people, those people are more likely to revolt violently, thereby killing members of the society and thus inhibiting the society's chance of survival.

Thus it is in the society's best interest not to place groups in concentration camps.  Thus the society should not use concentration camps.  No god is needed to reach this conclusion, only logic and mathematics.

Questions for Theists:
http://silverskeptic.blogspot.com/2011/03/consistent-standards.html

I'm a bit of a lurker. Every now and then I will come out of my cave with a flurry of activity. Then the Ph.D. program calls and I must fall back to the shadows.


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Fortunate_Son

you said:

Only God enforces His own laws.  We do not.  Sin is against God and only God.  When you sin, you are accountable to Him and nobody else.

That leaves us responsible to deal with finite transgressions which affect us temporarily.  When we put someone in jail for murder, we do not place him there because he violated God's law.  We place him there because he violated our laws.  We thus balance our own injustices.  When creating a legal system, we can use God's law as a guiding post, but we have to recognize that we cannot please God by our works.  We cannot atone for sin, only God can.  Plus, to put other people in danger by allowing killers to roam the street would itself be a sin to God. 

 

Fill in the striken out areas with the name bobo the clown. Then tell me what kind of nutcake thinks there was no "sin" against the victim, only sin against the great Bobo the Clown. That's how it reads for me.

 

Edit to add: Just noticed my stricken in areas are not showing on the post. The places to strike down are each time the word God is used, or Him when referencing God.


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Zaq wrote:When a society

Zaq wrote:

When a society segments groups of people it inhibits diverse genetic recombination which in turn inhibits its ability to evolve, which in turn inhibits its ability to survive as a society.

Great point!  Let me modify my position then:

If God does not exist, then there is no real reason why a society should not be allowed to place TEN people in a concentration camp just for the fun of it.  Certainly torturing 10 people would not inhibit a society's ability to survive, right?!

I suggest that every year, we pick 10 random Muslims and place them in concentration camps.  We will make them shave their heads, enter the gas chamber, bathe in cold water, and test wine with antifreeze in it.  It will be okay because 10 people are not enough to inhibit a society's ability to survive.

Great idea, eh?  Eh?

Quote:
When a society oppresses people, those people are more likely to revolt violently, thereby killing members of the society and thus inhibiting the society's chance of survival.

That's why we will only oppress TEN people.  Then we will not inhibit society's chances of surviving.  Certainly a revolt of 10 people could not do any harm, could it?

Quote:
Thus it is in the society's best interest not to place groups in concentration camps.  Thus the society should not use concentration camps.  No god is needed to reach this conclusion, only logic and mathematics.

But it would not affect society if we placed 10 people in a concetration camp.  Thus there is no reason why we should not place 10 people in concentration camps.


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StrawberryJam wrote:you

StrawberryJam wrote:

you said:

Only God enforces His own laws.  We do not.  Sin is against God and only God.  When you sin, you are accountable to Him and nobody else.

That leaves us responsible to deal with finite transgressions which affect us temporarily.  When we put someone in jail for murder, we do not place him there because he violated God's law.  We place him there because he violated our laws.  We thus balance our own injustices.  When creating a legal system, we can use God's law as a guiding post, but we have to recognize that we cannot please God by our works.  We cannot atone for sin, only God can.  Plus, to put other people in danger by allowing killers to roam the street would itself be a sin to God. 

 

Fill in the striken out areas with the name bobo the clown. Then tell me what kind of nutcake thinks there was no "sin" against the victim, only sin against the great Bobo the Clown. That's how it reads for me.

Do you acknowledge, though, that you did not accurately represent the Christian worldview in your initial post?


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Fortunate_Son wrote:Zaq

Fortunate_Son wrote:

Zaq wrote:

When a society segments groups of people it inhibits diverse genetic recombination which in turn inhibits its ability to evolve, which in turn inhibits its ability to survive as a society.

Great point!  Let me modify my position then:

If God does not exist, then there is no real reason why a society should not be allowed to place TEN people in a concentration camp just for the fun of it.  Certainly torturing 10 people would not inhibit a society's ability to survive, right?!

I suggest that every year, we pick 10 random Muslims and place them in concentration camps.  We will make them shave their heads, enter the gas chamber, bathe in cold water, and test wine with antifreeze in it.  It will be okay because 10 people are not enough to inhibit a society's ability to survive.

Great idea, eh?  Eh?

Quote:
When a society oppresses people, those people are more likely to revolt violently, thereby killing members of the society and thus inhibiting the society's chance of survival.

That's why we will only oppress TEN people.  Then we will not inhibit society's chances of surviving.  Certainly a revolt of 10 people could not do any harm, could it?

Quote:
Thus it is in the society's best interest not to place groups in concentration camps.  Thus the society should not use concentration camps.  No god is needed to reach this conclusion, only logic and mathematics.

But it would not affect society if we placed 10 people in a concetration camp.  Thus there is no reason why we should not place 10 people in concentration camps.

 

The sad thing is, the first people to think up such a plan and try to execute the 10 muslims each year would be fundamentalist christians.


StrawberryJam
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Fortunate_Son

Fortunate_Son wrote:

StrawberryJam wrote:

you said:

Only God enforces His own laws.  We do not.  Sin is against God and only God.  When you sin, you are accountable to Him and nobody else.

That leaves us responsible to deal with finite transgressions which affect us temporarily.  When we put someone in jail for murder, we do not place him there because he violated God's law.  We place him there because he violated our laws.  We thus balance our own injustices.  When creating a legal system, we can use God's law as a guiding post, but we have to recognize that we cannot please God by our works.  We cannot atone for sin, only God can.  Plus, to put other people in danger by allowing killers to roam the street would itself be a sin to God. 

 

Fill in the striken out areas with the name bobo the clown. Then tell me what kind of nutcake thinks there was no "sin" against the victim, only sin against the great Bobo the Clown. That's how it reads for me.

Do you acknowledge, though, that you did not accurately represent the Christian worldview in your initial post?

 

I can back up all the things I stated regarding doctrinal disputes amoung christians, as you are well aware. Point out errors you percieve as errors and I will address them one by one. Fair enough?


Fortunate_Son
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StrawberryJam

StrawberryJam wrote:

Fortunate_Son wrote:

StrawberryJam wrote:

you said:

Only God enforces His own laws.  We do not.  Sin is against God and only God.  When you sin, you are accountable to Him and nobody else.

That leaves us responsible to deal with finite transgressions which affect us temporarily.  When we put someone in jail for murder, we do not place him there because he violated God's law.  We place him there because he violated our laws.  We thus balance our own injustices.  When creating a legal system, we can use God's law as a guiding post, but we have to recognize that we cannot please God by our works.  We cannot atone for sin, only God can.  Plus, to put other people in danger by allowing killers to roam the street would itself be a sin to God. 

 

Fill in the striken out areas with the name bobo the clown. Then tell me what kind of nutcake thinks there was no "sin" against the victim, only sin against the great Bobo the Clown. That's how it reads for me.

Do you acknowledge, though, that you did not accurately represent the Christian worldview in your initial post?

Do you acknowledege that sin is only against God and that human beings cannot atone for sin against God by enforcing civil laws?

I can back up all the things I stated regarding doctrinal disputes amoung christians, as you are well aware. Point out errors you percieve as errors and I will address them one by one. Fair enough?

 

Do you acknowledege that sin is only against God and that human beings cannot atone for sin against God by enforcing civil laws?

 


NoMoreCrazyPeople
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Fortunate_Son wrote:Do you

Fortunate_Son wrote:

Do you acknowledege that sin is only against God and that human beings cannot atone for sin against God by enforcing civil laws?

 

NO!


v4ultingbassist
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Is confession just for

Is confession just for catholics?  Because that would certainly involve man in the whole 'sin is only god's to deal with.'


Fortunate_Son
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v4ultingbassist wrote:Is

v4ultingbassist wrote:

Is confession just for catholics?  Because that would certainly involve man in the whole 'sin is only god's to deal with.'

It is only a Roman Catholic doctrine.

Even in the RCC, it is not man who is responsible for carrying out God's punishment for sin.

According to Roman Catholic doctrine, priests have the authority to forgive sin because they are special mediators between man and God.  In this case, sin is still against God alone.  God just gave them the special privilege of being able to do things on his behalf.

 


StrawberryJam
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Huh?

Fortunate_Son wrote:

StrawberryJam wrote:

Fortunate_Son wrote:

StrawberryJam wrote:

you said:

Only God enforces His own laws.  We do not.  Sin is against God and only God.  When you sin, you are accountable to Him and nobody else.

That leaves us responsible to deal with finite transgressions which affect us temporarily.  When we put someone in jail for murder, we do not place him there because he violated God's law.  We place him there because he violated our laws.  We thus balance our own injustices.  When creating a legal system, we can use God's law as a guiding post, but we have to recognize that we cannot please God by our works.  We cannot atone for sin, only God can.  Plus, to put other people in danger by allowing killers to roam the street would itself be a sin to God. 

 

Fill in the striken out areas with the name bobo the clown. Then tell me what kind of nutcake thinks there was no "sin" against the victim, only sin against the great Bobo the Clown. That's how it reads for me.

Do you acknowledge, though, that you did not accurately represent the Christian worldview in your initial post?

Do you acknowledege that sin is only against God and that human beings cannot atone for sin against God by enforcing civil laws?

I can back up all the things I stated regarding doctrinal disputes amoung christians, as you are well aware. Point out errors you percieve as errors and I will address them one by one. Fair enough?

 

Do you acknowledege that sin is only against God and that human beings cannot atone for sin against God by enforcing civil laws?

 

I acknowledge no such thing. I do believe you are espousing a christian viewpoint. It may be helpful if you refer back to my earlier post where I ask you imagine each time God is used in your sentence replace it with bobo the clown, and that is how it sounds to me. I'm sure you can't expect me as a non theist to accept the statement you made above, or take it seriously.


tantric1967 (not verified)
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     All of the crimes

     All of the crimes you asked about are commanded by the god of the bible over and over again, so according to scripture all those brutal acts ARE MORAL.


Magus
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Fortunate_Son wrote:If God

Fortunate_Son wrote:

If God does not exist, then there is no real reason why a society should not be allowed to place TEN people in a concentration camp just for the fun of it.  Certainly torturing 10 people would not inhibit a society's ability to survive, right?!

I suggest that every year, we pick 10 random Muslims and place them in concentration camps.  We will make them shave their heads, enter the gas chamber, bathe in cold water, and test wine with antifreeze in it.  It will be okay because 10 people are not enough to inhibit a society's ability to survive.

Great idea, eh?  Eh?

Quote:
When a society oppresses people, those people are more likely to revolt violently, thereby killing members of the society and thus inhibiting the society's chance of survival.

That's why we will only oppress TEN people.  Then we will not inhibit society's chances of surviving.  Certainly a revolt of 10 people could not do any harm, could it?

Quote:
Thus it is in the society's best interest not to place groups in concentration camps.  Thus the society should not use concentration camps.  No god is needed to reach this conclusion, only logic and mathematics.

But it would not affect society if we placed 10 people in a concetration camp.  Thus there is no reason why we should not place 10 people in concentration camps.

Torturing 10 people could lead to unrest.  How would you feel living in a society where you could be randomly chosen to be tortured. Even if not random the sear violence alone displayed by the ones torturing people would cause a bit of a concern.  How would the people who cared about those 10 react.  This affect the cohesiveness of the society. Your implicated that the 10 people know no one and that no one has any attachment to them.

 To suggest a god is needed for morality is to suggest that morals are not useful and provide no benefit.  Sympathy and compassion are traits that evolved since it helped keep a society stable.  You are suggesting that sympathy doesn't exist. Or are you suggesting that societies that do already do these horrendous acts are more successful than those that don't.

Sounds made up...
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