Atheist bigotry
Offline Alright, this is an attempt to smack around some of the lame arguments used by atheists on this board.
Now to start off, we all know that theists stand for the belief in god and whatnot. On the other hand I am interested to know what atheists stand for. What do atheists believe in?
After numerous insight, I've come to the conclusion that many theists clearly have no idea what they stand for. On one hand some say they don't stand for anything because that puts limits on the reasons for their existence (meaning there ought not to be an "end goal" or any one reason to live life, but rather that their progress should be hypothetically "Eternal"
while for others, its simply that they stand for freedom, material wealth, and knowledge.
Anyways, what I really want to know from you atheists is why you think you exist. I'm going to give you an explanation of the importance of this question and I hope it wont be too complicated for you and others to understand:
1) Thesists claim that the reason everything exists is because of God.
2) You deny them this explanation because you believe the belief in God to be illogical.
3) And yet, believing that there is no explanation for our existence is also illogical - because it defies the principle of sufficient reason.
4) Therefore, you must have an explanation for the cause of our existence.
And yet, you can't have one. Because any explanation is impossible because the truth of existence, however much you defy this, is that it is illogical.
Therefore, the argument that God is illogical is invalid because your inability to answer the question is equally illogical.
Therefore, you are equally "bigoted" or w/e in trying to convince us that it is "irrational to believe in god" or that "belief in god" is somehow wrong or that "god doesn't exist" or whatever your agenda is.
So my question is, why do you attempt to demonize the belief in god?
Using the logic I've layed out above, how is it logical to say that your position is rational, while the theist's is not?
Why shouldnt bother theists and atheists leave one another alone and not get into dumb arguments over the existence of god?
To conclude, claiming that people shouldn't believe that God is the reason we exist because it is illogical, while simultanousely claiming that existence has no logical explanation, is illogical.
Either you prove that there is a reason that we exist (which you wont be able to do, because for the last time, there isn't one), or you give up the claim that God cannot exist because he is illogical.
Failing to do one of these two things will expose you for the hypocrit you are.
Note: I do not claim to have any strong belief in god, so please do not involve anything in your responce that goes off on a tangent about "Islam","Christianity", or "your god","your religion" and whatnot in an attempt to smear me. Instead, I'd rather see your futile attempts to systematically try and refute what I've layed out above. HAve a good day ^_^
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I would disagree with 3 - it's not illogical to believe there is no reason for our existence. There's also the possibility that we simply don't know what the reason is.
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
Oh how cute.
Should I simply merge this with the other thread?
It's going to take a while for you isn't it?
This is called bifurcation. I'll wait while you google the word.
I wonder where the word 'demonize' came from don't you?
For a moment, ask yourself which causes the other. Does theism cause atheism or does atheism cause theism?
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I'm going to guess that you're looking for an external reason, some answer to 'why do you exist?' that isn't the internal 'my life has the meaning that I give it' reason. And the answer, really, is a simple one:
I don't know.
I don't have the answer. I don't claim to have the answer. How is it logical to claim you have the answer if you have no way of demonstrating that your answer is even possible?
I don't claim there's no answer. I claim that I don't know what it is. You claim my admission of ignorance is illogical. Please demonstrate how that is so.
"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid
FAIL
Because my parents had sex, my mother took her pregnancy to term and I was born. Why do you think you deserve or require a reason to exist?
"A proof is a proof. What kind of a proof? It's a proof. A proof is a proof. And when you have a good proof, it's because it's proven." -- former Canadian Prime Minister Jean Chretien
You give yourself the reason to exist.
If you actually got yours from God (based in whatever belief you have):
1. What is it?
2. Did you really need God to give it to you?
For me, God can't exist because he can't be described in the terms of existence. God can only be described by what he isn't.
If you can't tell me what something is - can that something be said to exist?
The rest looks like "Existence is illogical so illogical things have to exist". If I'm wrong, please enlighten.
Add me to the repeated refutation in this thread.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
I dont think you guys understand what I'm trying to get at. Life is irrational and so to believe in life you have to believe in the irrational. You people's inability to be open-minded to this possibility demostrates your own stubberness.
This is an assertion, not a fact. I don't think you get it.
How is life irrational? Things that happen in life are irrational at times. Some humans are irrational. Life itself has an ordering factor called natural selection.
You might have heard of it unless you depend on God for information as well as a purpose in life.
Why are you so closed-minded and stubborn?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Life is irrational in the sense that there was no rationale to its coming into being or in how it changes to fit the conditions it finds itself in.
But there is evidence to demonstrate life's existence, and it is on that evidence that one can rationally come to know there is life.
"God" is irrational also in the same way, for most concepts of god.
However, there is no evidence to demonstrate god, so it is less rational to bother to believe in god. (As I said in the other thread of yours, the same rationale applies to goblins and gnomes and Fae folk and Santa Claus.)
Your argument above is a false dichotomy.
"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray
Well, so far, your arguments are the only ones that are getting smacked around.
The term "atheist," doesn't imply a belief in anything genius. It's just denial or a lack of belief in a god or gods. This is a word that shouldn't even exist; it only exists because there are so many people in the world that choose to wallow in comfortable fantasies that the "lack of" position actually requires a word. There are no a-Santa Clausists, and there are no a-unicornists.
That's correct. Theists have no idea what they stand for.
Oh my God! Of course atheists stand for different things. There are no atheist doctrines that all atheists worship.
Furthermore, why can't you grasp the concept that I can have a goal in life without being controlled by some all-powerful, perverted narcissist.
Do you think we're all four years old?! I don't even need to read your explanation because I've heard this stupid argument 100 billion times.
"I think, therefore I am." There, I proved it.
"I believe in God, therefore....?"
All the evidence points to the fact that I exist. On the other hand, there is absolutely zero evidence for the existence of God.
You're not making any sense.
You're still not making any sense. You're forming arguments with a flawed premise now.
Oops, now you need to look up bigoted in the dictionary. Is it irrational to not believe in Santa Claus? Is it irrational to not believe in unicorns?
Oh, strawman, great.
Um, is the lack of a belief in unicorns is rational?
If this debate is so dumb, then why are arguing about it?
Wow, false dichotomy non sequitur. Applause.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
I.......um........huh?
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
For the sake of argument, lets say you're right, that to believe in life means you have to be open to believing in the irrational. Does this mean all irrational propositions are to be believed? That they are all to be accorded as 'possible'?
Do you believe in unicorns? Leprechauns? Chupacabra? Santa Claus?
These things are, after all, irrational beliefs to hold. By your... we'll call it logic... you thus are required to believe in all of them.
What makes God different?
I have this set of data. Let's label it 'the observable universe'. This set of data contains everything that we can reliably demonstrate to exist.
I don't know that unicorns exist. I don't know that unicorns don't exist. I see no evidence that compels me to add unicorns to my set of data. That doesn't mean unicorns don't exist, it simply means that until I have compelling reasons to think they do, I cannot presume they exist.
I don't know that God exists. I don't know that God doesn't exist. Why should God be treated differently than unicorns?
"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid
Question: Why does everything exist?
Answer: Because it Can.
Problem solved.
Certainly there is a reason for our existance. Adinine, Guanine, Thiomine and Cytozine(DNA) and evolution. HOW that came about is random.
AND the other question, which I am suprised Matt, that you did not ask in your post, "Does there have to be a reason at all, other than nature, for our existance". WE give ourselves purpose, beyond that science is the best observational tool for what we have yet to discover.
There is no reason for us to be here other than we are, and our social structures and social dynamics are also a result of evolution. Some of the same socializing in us we can see in other animals.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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What a great way to start a thread. Tell everyone that you are going to be intentionally antagonisitic. Whatever.
Agreed but what is the point that you are trying to make?
Because my parents were horny. But you want to know where the universe came from, not how I was made. Keep reading.
Yes, do please keep it simple. After all, it is a proven fact that atheists can't hold complicated arguments in their head. Either that or your comment was a slight at atheists in general.
1. Agreed.
2. I am not denying anyone the right to believe in anything however fantastic it might be. If there is someone out there who believes that god is a toaster, he is free to hold that belief with no interference from me.
3. So you say. However, it is not illogical to find an uncaused universe. Pretty much it just happened. It happens all the time on the quantum level. Please google the casimir effect.
4. Yes I do. Vacuum fluctuation caused a small bit of stuff to come into existence randomly. As this happened, it was also linked to an inflationary field that forced it to expand rapidly. As the stuff expanded, some portion of the inflationary field became additional matter in the form of quanta.
Shall I continue or do you get the point?
I have not argued that god is illogical. I do hold that god is unnecessary to explain existence.
I was not aware of ever having said such a thing. Oh wait! That was because I did not.
Which theist would you like me to refute?
I am game for that one. If you want to believe in the toaster god, feel free. You will have earned my pity but not my contempt. Contempt is something that I reserve for the likes of televangelists who flit around in private jets with gold plated toilets while tearfully telling people that god needs money sent to a certain post office box so that they can continue to do god's work.
However, I will note that you started this thread.
=
So what is the explanation for the cause of God's existence?
If you don't have answer for that one, why do we need one for our existence?
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
Wow, you're not going to believe this! I just found the lord. Now I'm not going to bother with the atheists but this is for the Christians. God wants me to start a new ministry - and he told me something. I guarantee if you don't send me ALL of your money right now, you will burn in hell for ALL eternity!
Anyone who wants to convert, can, of course, do this too.
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
BTW, I exist because my mom and dad had sex. I don't presume to make up absurd answers like religion does beyond what we currently know. Your title that makes us bigots is absurd. You presume that because I point out reality that makes me automatically incapable of empathy for those I disagree with. People, no matter what I do, will still believe absurd things, that does not give me, or anyone the right to treat them like they have a third eye like they are a different species. Telling someone they are full of shit ON ANY ISSUE, does not make one a bigot.
I am quite sure, even within your own family or friends, one of them did or said something you found to be absurd(on any given issue). Did you want to kill them (literally) at that point, or did you simply say to them, or to yourself, "They are full of it".
Telling a kid that Santa is not real is not bigoted anymore than telling a kid if you touch that hot stove will burn them, is bigoted.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Prejudices are beliefs that are not supported by reasonable evidence.
Bigotry is regarding or treating others based on your prejudices.
All the atheists I know are actively trying to eliminate their prejudices and suppress their bigotries.
Religion is prejudices. Bigotry is practically a doctrine of religion.
All the theists that I know are bigots who are defending their irrational prejudices.
You should look at yourself in a mirror and ask yourself:
1) why you insist on maintaining your irrational prejudices? and
2) why you are spewing your irrational bigotries?
when you say "faith" I think "evil lies"
when you say "god" I think "santa clause"
False Preconception #1: Atheism requires a 'faith' analagous to theism
This is a tired old argument. Atheists simply do not have faith in a deity. An atheists spiritual and political beliefs are hugely varied in spectrum, as there is nothing that somehow 'disqualifies' one from atheism. You might consider, for example, that you're an atheist when it comes to any deity aside from Yahweh.
False Preconception #2: Life is worth nothing without some 'deeper purpose / meaning'
My existence is owed to a chain of chemical processes and environmental throws of the proverbial dice. As part of the mere 1% of organisms ever brought to progeny, I feel a tad priveleged in this regard.
If you were looking for me to wax on the philosophical: My purpose here is to enjoy my stay.
False Preconception #3: Atheists make unreasonable demands for proof of God's existence / Are only out to hurt theists
There is no evidence for God. None. Zero.
Extraordinary claims that lack evidence do not deserve acknowledgment as facts. It's that simple. Atheists recognize this quality of deities, and as such, dismiss them as fiction.
Claiming that 'everything exists is because of God' is born of ignorance (as well as grammatically grotesque), resolves no mysteries while creating whole new ones and leads us to no new discovery. It is not a productive worldview.
False Preconception #4: There is no solid scientific theory that describes how humans came to exist
We do. The explanation is called 'Evolution by Natural Selection' (the principles first published in 'On the Origin of Species', which was actually published yesterday in 1859).
We evolved from fish. Get over it.
I just answered your question. Your question has been answered for over a century!
Therefore, by your own reasoning, I am not bigoted or unreasonable. You're just desperately clinging to your dogma like a toddler clinging to his mother's leg for his first kindergarden class, afraid that the world really might just be much larger than his living room.
Belief in God is demonstratably destructive, lending it's victim to a myriad of preconceptions about the world and retarding their ability to think critically or think for themselves. Your position is irrational because it lacks evidence.
Here's an example:
I propose that the planet Jupiter exists. I can provide you evidence that I'm correct in the form of photographs of the planet, details of it's composition, it's relative position within the solar system, etc. Now, my evidence isn't technically infallible; the photos might be fake, the data might be wrong, etc - but this is where philosophical tools like Occam's Razor and the scientific method come into play, checking the veracity and authenticity of my evidence.
Now, you propose that God exists. What evidence can you provide?
It's simple: we want to live in a healthy society. A society drenched in religious dogma is an unhealthy one.
You're an idiot. You posed this same question three different times in one post!
Humans owe their existence to evolution via natural selection. We've known this for quite some time by now.
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940