The theory of discussion on metaphysical topics

Luminon
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The theory of discussion on metaphysical topics

There are certain diffculties we're having, when we discuss things like aura, telepathy, extra sensoric perception, and other similar topics. These topics might seem irrational, and yet we discuss them. This is, because it's natural to be curious about them. But soon, we realize, that such topics are not only out of most of people's everyday experience, but also out of our abilities to discuss them rationally. Why, is demonstrated below. I want to propose a method how to discuss them meaningfully, avoid conflicts, and allow us to come to a conclusions.

For now, it is like...
I make an assertion. I by myself I'm not able to prove that assertion (which is nobody's fault) so I must refer to someone else, who did some more work on this. Soon I realize, that people about whom that reference is, are dead, or ridiculed, persecuted, accused. on the run, or locked up in jail, so this makes them not very trustworthy. Well, how to get out of that dead end? The reason for that original assertion is still true. But the only way how to prove it to someone is actually make other people prove it by themselves to themselves, to do the work. This wouldn't be such a great problem, but somehow, people has a habit to consider an unproven, or unsuccesfully proven assertion as false. A reasonable reaction would be
a) weak agnosticism towards the subject
b) curiosity about the subject
which would help them to make some effort and find their proof, but somehow, a negative reaction is happening instead. I believe this is because there are concepts of "foolishness" and "lunacy", to mask a fear from people who seemingly behaves  and thinks differently. So fear might be behind this all, fear from losing your time on bullshit (though people loses it all the time on their bullshit), or fear of alienation from peers, just for not refusing the bullshitters immediately.
I've got to emphasize, it is normal to disagree with someone about something, but it's not normal to let an emotions, like fear, come into this. You can't disagree about something by the words like "lunacy", because it means nothing, it means your own emotional, fearful reaction. Furthermore, many people here are less or more freshly after getting free from religious mental abuse, and they're very antagonistic against anything what distantly resembles any kind of bullshittery. Putting aside that in USA the religion is a real threat, this antagonism is another obstacle from being emotionally detached about such topics. 
This is why are rules for discussion, and just as there are rules of etiquette for discussion and examination of evidence, so there should be another.
1) Anyone, who participates in a discussion on such an esoteric and metaphysic topics, should either:
Be obliged to test the claims honestly and thoroughly by him/herself, (at least once) resulting in positive, undecided or negative stance,
OR
Have a stance of weak agnosticism about the subject.

2) It is acceptable to share own experiences, however, it's inacceptable to demand a belief in them, from others.
This must be, because there can't or doesn't yet exist any other reliable authority on these topics than the authority of self. It is the terra incognita, a place where the scientific standards and certainities are as distant, as electrification in Amazon jungle. These standards must be painstakingly built over decades, this is why every serious participant should make an actual, personal contribution to these not yet existing standards. Don't ask for proof unless it's already offered, because it's your problem that you don't have one and only you can give it to yourself, by your effort. Accepting anyone else's judgement here is irrational. It's a jungle, you're on your own. Use your curiosity, your longing for the truth, as your power.

It is inevitable, that there will be a number of people, who will have a negative stance towards the subject, even though they make a honest inquisitive effort. But I believe, that their number will be much less than of those, who has a negative stance now. In this moment, a "skeptic" is a person dependent on an infrastructure of scientific paradigm, and lacks it, when he/she comes to an area, where it's not yet built, and adopts a negative stance just because of that unfortunate, but unjust reason. Unjust, but understandable, because we live all our lives within a scientific realm, which allows a beautifully fast work and progress, and we don't realize, that this is an artificial construct built by human hands, not an omnipresent standard. What I want, is an independent researcher, not a whiny proof demander. There are areas of knowledge and the world, where we must do the scientific work by ourselves. Did you know, that it takes about 200 years in a geographic area, before a heavy industry is developed there? Similar it is with scientific standards, it needs a great preparatory work, until either a metaphysics of today becomes a science of tomorrow, or metaphysicists themselves will see an error of their ways. This is what we can expect with an arrival of scientific standards into this area.

So, laides and gentlemen, guys and girls, this codex needs to have a real guts to accept it out of the blue. I accepted it, because I already do such an effort anyway, but for others, it may take many years, it may cost you your skeptic friends, and it needs you to have a real interest in this area, not just an ocassional talk on this forum. So what do you think, what will you do? Do you understand the thought behind this theory, it's meaning, and so on? Any improvements you've got on your mind?

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.


Jormungander
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Thick means stupid. I

Thick means stupid. I checked an online dictionary, but "stupid" was the ninth definition of thick and was marked as informal use only.

"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."
British General Charles Napier while in India


Susac
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The way I think about this

The way I think about this subject is this:

 

Personal experience IS evidence.  The question is evidence of what?  If you happen to be thinking about a person and they call you moments later is this evidence of ESP or is it evidence of a coincidence?  If you "feel the presence of God" is this evidence of the divine or is this evidence of a right temporal lobe event?

 

Psychologist and psychiatrists frequently use the reported subjective experience of their patients as evidence (aka symptoms) of mental illness.  This is not even controversial.  But note,  what these scientists use is the REPORT of experience, and the language that is written into the chart of the client is "Client reports that he is hearing voices.  Client appeared to be responding to internal stimuli during interview." 

 

The qualifying terms that I put in bold text are important.  They present the facts as the clinician sees them.  We don't know that the client is having these experiences (he might be faking for some reason), we can only say that he is reporting them, and that his observed behavior was consistent with his report.

 

Just my 2 cents.


Luminon
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Susac wrote: The way I think

Susac wrote:
The way I think about this subject is this:

 

Personal experience IS evidence.  The question is evidence of what?  If you happen to be thinking about a person and they call you moments later is this evidence of ESP or is it evidence of a coincidence?  If you "feel the presence of God" is this evidence of the divine or is this evidence of a right temporal lobe event?

Both choices are possible. To be aware of something, it must eventually have a response in the good old physical brain. But it is important to not mistake this physical secondary event for a cause of this feeling. A corresponding brain activity or state (for example a chemical imbalance) may not be enough for being a cause of what the patient reports, and it also may not tell why this happens. A miracles of psychopharmacology may suppress brain functions enough to stop this response, but I'd only recommend this if the state is pathologic. For example, my state is rather unusual, but non-pathologic. It gives me more control over myself and allows me to perceive more of the world's wonders.

Susac wrote:
Psychologist and psychiatrists frequently use the reported subjective experience of their patients as evidence (aka symptoms) of mental illness.  This is not even controversial.  But note,  what these scientists use is the REPORT of experience, and the language that is written into the chart of the client is "Client reports that he is hearing voices.  Client appeared to be responding to internal stimuli during interview."
Indeed. I see this is meant to avoid any hidden, unfounded assumption. The problem is, when it comes to evaluating such a reports. I wonder how this analysis works. We have geniuses of a pathologic and normal psychology, but I'd like to explore the abnormal, but non-pathologic, advanced psychology. This could help those oppressed, who belongs to this cathegory for not fitting into the average norm and being automatically deemed as sick.
Does a psychologist have a power to get a patient into a nuthouse if he doesn't like him? Or asked differently, does he have a professional right to let a person go back into streets if he reports hearing a voices or any such a strange thing? Is it possible just to get known with a specialist's opinion without a fear of being locked up?

Susac wrote:
  The qualifying terms that I put in bold text are important.  They present the facts as the clinician sees them.  We don't know that the client is having these experiences (he might be faking for some reason), we can only say that he is reporting them, and that his observed behavior was consistent with his report.

 

Just my 2 cents.

Thanks. You seem to be well informed about it, so you could answer some of my questions. I'd like to study the psychology some day. And to update it, of course. There will be a change of all aspects of our lives, this including this aspect.

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.


Nordmann
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That definition of "thick"

That definition of "thick" that was 9th down on the list?

 

That's the one!


BobSpence
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Luminon wrote:Did you know,

Luminon wrote:

Did you know, that it takes about 200 years in a geographic area, before a heavy industry is developed there?

I do know this is clearly wrong. Japan, India, China provide countless examples to disprove this.

Science changes even faster - look at the process of acceptance of those totally revolutionary ideas of Relativity and Quantum Theory. Science thrives on new understanding. Major paradigm shifts will take longer, as they should, since they have to explain not only the new observations which inspired them, but also all the mountain of existing observations which are consistent with the 'old' paradigm. This may require a lot of investigation to show that the new idea offers a better framework for understanding ALL the relevant observations.

Such industries have developed, revolutionary scientific theories established, in a fraction of the time that many of the ideas you support have been around, Luminon.

These sort of comments continue to demonstrate that you have a lot of misconceptions and straight-out errors of fact, so increasing the probability that your conclusions are not firmly based. You still clearly misrepresent science, because it does not support your conclusions.

EDIT: Note I am not questioning that you did have the experiences and perceptions you describe, it is your conclusions about the causes of these experiences that is open to question.

Science, like any other human activity, is not perfect, but it explicitly tries to avoid wasting time on ideas which seem to have little merit, since there are infinitely more erroneous ideas around than accurate ones. Once a new idea has passed some test, such as predicting some phenomena inconsistent with the previous framework, it becomes part of the accepted body of knowledge.

 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


Jormungander
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Luminon wrote:You can't

Luminon wrote:

You can't disagree about something by the words like "lunacy", because it means nothing, it means your own emotional, fearful reaction. 

Nope, I'm not scared of your imaginary beliefs. But they are lunacy. It is as if a schizophrenic told me I shouldn't say he is nuts and I am just afraid of the truths he knows. Sometimes you just need to call things what they are, and this is craziness.

 

Luminon wrote:

1) Anyone, who participates in a discussion on such an esoteric and metaphysic topics, should either:
Be obliged to test the claims honestly and thoroughly by him/herself, (at least once) resulting in positive, undecided or negative stance,
OR
Have a stance of weak agnosticism about the subject.

There is so much woo-woo bullshit that I'm afraid I will do neither. I will not test crystal healing or pyramid power for myself nor will I hold a position of weak agnosticism on those matters. It is quackery. End of discussion. Your beliefs are similar. This is like reading Harry Potter: it is fake, end of discussion. And I won't hold weak agnosticism on it. Your beliefs rank as equals to Harry Potter in my mind. The only difference being we all agree that Harry Potter is fantasy while you claim the energy vortex in your head is real.

 

Luminon wrote:

Don't ask for proof unless it's already offered, because it's your problem that you don't have one and only you can give it to yourself

Bullshit. This is a 'put up or shut up' situation. If you can not gather evidence for your claims then we will automatically not believe in them. Claims of spirits and energy vortexes in your head require compelling evidence to back them up.

 

Luminon wrote:

What I want, is an independent researcher, not a whiny proof demander.

How many times must we go through this? The utter lack of evidence to support your case isn't our problem. This is your problem. We aren't being 'whiny' about you lacking proof, we are just exasperated that you won't stop your crazy (yes, they are crazy, that is the fact of the matter) claims and you can't back them up with evidence. Stop trying to free yourself from the burden of proof. We have all witnessed too many attempts by theists, creationists and proponents of intelligent design to free themselves from the burden of proof. We didn't give them all a free pass on needing evidence to support claims and we won't give you one either.

 

 

Look what I coincidently found on another thread:

Quote:

 

Caposkia is there any evidence you personally use to support your belief in God?  


If so would you be willing to discuss it with us?  


Do you believe that evidence is necessary to believe something?

 
Do you consider personal experience to be evidence?

See, everyone is required to present evidence of their claims, even theists and even you. Later in the thread that I got that quote from the theist is called out for not providing objective evidence. Objective evidence is the only thing anyone seems to value on this site. And we would be fools to accept anything else.

http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/15981

Read post #37 on that thread. That attitude is the only appropriate attitude to have for these circumstances. I advise that we hold everyone's claims to such a standard.

"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."
British General Charles Napier while in India


Luminon
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Jormungander wrote:How many

Jormungander wrote:

How many times must we go through this? The utter lack of evidence to support your case isn't our problem. This is your problem. We aren't being 'whiny' about you lacking proof, we are just exasperated that you won't stop your crazy (yes, they are crazy, that is the fact of the matter) claims and you can't back them up with evidence. Stop trying to free yourself from the burden of proof. We have all witnessed too many attempts by theists, creationists and proponents of intelligent design to free themselves from the burden of proof. We didn't give them all a free pass on needing evidence to support claims and we won't give you one either.


Maybe we're arguing about a cross-purposes.
I'm sorry if it looked differently, but I don't care about a believers. Even if whole Rational Responders Squad would publically yell "We believe in the supernatural!!!" it would be useless, because a belief doesn't bring any knowledge, nor technological advancement. (which is what I want) The only thing what a belief does is giving a power over the believers to some authority. This is what I don't want, I want people to be independent.

You think you'll do any good to me or yourself by accepting my hypothetical proof? The skeptics doesn't really care about the supernatural. They doesn't care about a technical details of Kamaloka, Devachan, or monadic evolution. What they care about the most is defending themselves from the deluded people and their bullshit. Even if the "supernatural" would be proven, most of them would be just a passive consumers of this discovery. They would only accept it passively and the life would go on. So I don't want a passive knowledge consumers either, even if they're rational.

What I want, are an interested people. I mean a people interested so much, that a burden of proof is not a burden to them, but a joyful duty, and they are willing to spend their own time and effort to find the proof. It doesn't have to be anything big, a personal evidence is enough. Then I can hear out their personal evidence and compare it with many other personal evidences I have, including mine. In return, I offer all my knowledge how to search for the personal evidence most effectively, (if they need it) and also an access to the database of the personal evidences and a related news. I also offer a participation on a community focused on a personal and global development. (The only fundamental creed we have, is about a brotherhood of all human beings. The concept of brotherhood means to accept that there are diverse, some 'younger' and also some 'older' brothers, forming the humanity. This concept also means that under the guise of differences and diversity, we're all of one origin, one kin, one collective path and goal. )

I have studied a lot of unusual phenomena, experiences and miracles, and I had come to a conclusion. The proof we need is not in abundance. The mysterious phenomena are abundant, there are hundreds of them, even scientifically researched, but the results are hardly ever published. It's not in transcendence of our knowledge, because the easy rationale is favored to explain away everything. And it's not in the supernatural, because this is only a pretense word for the skeptics to play dumb, when they are in a playful mood.  ("supernatural? You mean something not natural, thus not existing?" ) The main attribute of a proof we need is unignorable.
This demanding a proof becomes ridiculous. It is demanded by a standards of the institution of science, with a few centuries of tradition, with hundreds of billions dollars in funds, having the greatest and best equipped facilities and technology, employing the most intelligent and educated people, and finally, having the only real worldwide authority in it's field. You demand a proof of this quality, even though it is obvious that I don't have a resources like that. Also, the very subject itself, the "supernatural" phenomena, is still not technologically explained, the scientific theories offering an explanation are distrusted. The only real work I'm capable of doing for it by myself is local and human-based. It's unfair to demand more from me, unless you offer me, let's say, a participation on experiments in a laboratory, and not even then the success is sure.

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.