...but religion is NOT the root of all evil...

clintonjason
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...but religion is NOT the root of all evil...

 ...even if religion died out... the evils in it would just "jump" to other fields, or other forms of histeria.

fashion, cars, drugs, sports, the economy, the market, just anything could replace the very same forms of fanatism. Or maybe it already happened and now we have to fight with many negativities which are poisoning our societies. peole just don't want to say " I have enough" or "I am satisfied with what I am, with what I have". so scared of being lame, mediocre and "middle" in just anything, as if liquid water wasnt good enough, too middle positioned, better freezing ice or hot steam (but will i drink?)

and now its even worst, becose religious fanatics will have the right to say You see? all these evils becose you do not have enough faith in a whatever random god. this is mediocrity in its deepest meaning. as predictble as the one who really has got to be cool no matter what. maybe i'm not going to leave a mark about my life, i am not going to change the world or be famous, but you know what, I am happy with what i have, i am a decent honest person and i don't need a new iPod.

sometimes i seat near the lake and i look at the waters, and everything is blue and green. and that's paradise for me. no angels, no trumpets, no iPods, no gods or legends or muslims or hindus or sports freaks or cars or... no evils whatsoever.

it's just me and the lake

peace


darth_josh
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When there is a world

When there is a world without religion, we should all sit by the lake and discuss this.

Until then it seems capricious to assert that 'evil' would be perpetuated.

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Quote:...even if religion

Quote:
...even if religion died out... the evils in it would just "jump" to other fields, or other forms of histeria.

Couple of points:

1. "Evil" is a nonsense term.  Doesn't have a coherent definition.

2. Religion is a form of bad critical thinking.  There are other examples of this in the world now.  Ask any tinfoil hatter UFO conspiracy nut about Roswell, and you'll hear lots of it.  Travel to any country where the state is worshipped as an ultimate authority.  Read the history of totalitarian regimes.  Visit a holistic healing store.

The reason we're called the "Rational Response Squad" is that we're against all forms of irrationality.  Religion just happens to be the most prevalent form in America by about ten thousand percent.  I feel certain that a world without religion would still have irrationality.  However, if you go to a doctor and he diagnoses you with cancer and asthma, is it wrong to try to cure the cancer because you'd still have asthma?

Quote:
fashion, cars, drugs, sports, the economy, the market, just anything could replace the very same forms of fanatism.

It's unfortunate that you are stuck with the idea of evil.  It's one of the reasons it's so hard to get rid of religion.  The fact is that there's nothing inherently wrong with any of the things you mention.  Any of them can be used by humans in a number of ways.  The way they are used is a result of how good the users' critical thinking skills are.

Quote:
Or maybe it already happened and now we have to fight with many negativities which are poisoning our societies. peole just don't want to say " I have enough" or "I am satisfied with what I am, with what I have". so scared of being lame, mediocre and "middle" in just anything, as if liquid water wasnt good enough, too middle positioned, better freezing ice or hot steam (but will i drink?)

This isn't evil.  It's evolution.  We're following our natures more or less blindly.  I spend a great deal of my life trying to explain this idea to people because knowledge is power.  Once we as a culture realize that our emotions and natural inclinations are neither good nor bad, we can evaluate them more accurately in line with goals.  It might be possible to make long term improvements in the human condition with lots of people making decisions based on the real science of human nature instead of religious inaccuracies.

Quote:
and now its even worst, becose religious fanatics will have the right to say You see? all these evils becose you do not have enough faith in a whatever random god. this is mediocrity in its deepest meaning. as predictble as the one who really has got to be cool no matter what. maybe i'm not going to leave a mark about my life, i am not going to change the world or be famous, but you know what, I am happy with what i have, i am a decent honest person and i don't need a new iPod.

Um... first, you don't know that the world would be exactly as bad without religion.  I suspect it would be better.  We're both speculating.  I have good reason for believing that the world would be better.  You know why?  Because I've got a large group of friends, all of whom are atheists and good critical thinkers, and they don't fall victim to the kinds of bad critical thinking you've mentioned, for the most part.  They are better people than the religious people I know.  They're more compassionate, and more humane, and less hateful, and less bigoted.

Furthermore, I can look at the most secular nations in the world and see firsthand that they have far less societal dysfunction than highly religious societies.  The fact is, what evidence we have suggests that secular societies are better.

Quote:

sometimes i seat near the lake and i look at the waters, and everything is blue and green. and that's paradise for me. no angels, no trumpets, no iPods, no gods or legends or muslims or hindus or sports freaks or cars or... no evils whatsoever.

it's just me and the lake

That's nice.

Doesn't really have anything to do with your naked assertion that eliminating religion wouldn't affect the world in any meaningful way. 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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clintonjason wrote:fashion,

clintonjason wrote:

fashion, cars, drugs, sports, the economy, the market, just anything could replace the very same forms of fanatism.

You don't seriously believe humans display the very same level of excessive intolerance in mass over fashion, cars, etc. as they do with their chosen variety of theism, do you?

Please show me the evidence where one group has slaughtered another over their choice to say, drive a Chevrolet over a Toyota?  Or let's take this a step further, bombed the innocent passengers in a car solely because it wasn't the model they believe to be superior?

I'm not looking for you to reply with some type of brand loyalty argument which is at least based in some sort of evidence.  Without evidence, actually in spite of it's non-existence, religious fanaticism exists. 

... and speaking of religion being the root of all evil, where is the deciding line on absolute morality?  Last I checked, those arguments were based on religion.

[Edit: Just to clarify, I'm not saying atrocities could not exist without religion.]


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Just tought I should remind

Just tought I should remind people, in light of the title of this thread, even Richard Dawkins who had a recent two part TV doco about religion entitled "The Root of All Evil?" does not hold that religion is "The Root of All Evil". That title was chosen by the producer, Dawkins was not happy with it, but the best he do to change it was to have the question mark added to it. He said this in an interview after the series went to air.

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BobSpence1 wrote:Just tought

BobSpence1 wrote:

Just tought I should remind people, in light of the title of this thread, even Richard Dawkins who had a recent two part TV doco about religion entitled "The Root of All Evil?" does not hold that religion is "The Root of All Evil". That title was chosen by the producer, Dawkins was not happy with it, but the best he do to change it was to have the question mark added to it. He said this in an interview after the series went to air.

I remember this as well... his response was "I wouldn't say religion is the root of *all* evil." I don't think any of us are saying that either.

In defining "evil" however religion plays a large part.  Where's the secular basis for masturbation being immoral?  Of course on the other side of the coin there's both religious and non-religious arguments for the immorality of stabbing a wealthy individual in the eye to take his/her money.  (Waves to Matt.)


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Then those other obsessions

Then those other obsessions should be dealt with as they arise. Unless one wants to be a total nihilist, one must draw a distinction between anticipating the future, and paralyzing oneself with speculation. There's the indefinite sense that problems will emerge beyond the problems that are resolved, but the fact is we don't know what those problems will be; and accepting them, in the abstract, as an ongoing facet of life should constitute resigning oneself to the problems currently known.

 


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Ooh! Ooh! Ooh![waving hand]I

Ooh! Ooh! Ooh![waving hand]

I have a great idea.

Let's get rid of religion and find out.

If we need someone to prove wrong then I'll go ahead and make the assertion that religion is the root of all evil.

Give me something 'evil' and I will connect the dots via degrees of separation from a religion.

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Hambydammit wrote:2.

Hambydammit wrote:

2. Religion is a form of bad critical thinking.  There are other examples of this in the world now.  Ask any tinfoil hatter UFO conspiracy nut about Roswell, and you'll hear lots of it.  Travel to any country where the state is worshipped as an ultimate authority.  Read the history of totalitarian regimes.  Visit a holistic healing store. 

Other, closer-to-home examples: demonizing anyone not in your chosen political party (which seems to be an artform similar to the worship of the state, here in the states). The certainty that [capitalism | communism | socialism] can fix all economic ills. The belief that humans are "special." The thought that any one person or thing or technological advance can "save" us from the various disasters that seem to be just over the horizon.

Great Groddy Grue! The list of irrational thinking seems to be potentially endless.

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darth_josh wrote:Ooh! Ooh!

darth_josh wrote:

Ooh! Ooh! Ooh![waving hand]

I have a great idea.

Let's get rid of religion and find out.

If we need someone to prove wrong then I'll go ahead and make the assertion that religion is the root of all evil.

Give me something 'evil' and I will connect the dots via degrees of separation from a religion.

That would be nice. But how can you be sure that all religion will disappear? There is one more religion, and a fundamentally evil one.
The belief in speculative marketing. All the stock markets are dependent on faith, and every lack of faith in the system is quickly shown on the market index, currency values, and thus on people's life standard. The god of money punishes the lack of faith. People does crazy things to satisfy this god, (just look at any american TV competition or reality show) but they mostly won't become rich, they will just have a few more rich idols to worship.

This evil god has it's fanatics, who would (and does) do anything for the money and a control over them. They are relatively few, but powerful. This is the difference to the religional badasses, who are the most numerous of them all.
Money are good as any other useful energy, but worshipping them is just as bad as being stuck in the medieval Dark Age. The oligarchy is fat and rich, and the poor people are dying of hunger. Many people can fight against the Church wanting to take over the state, but they're devotees of the money god. This needs not only critical thinking, but also a certain idealism, feeling what is right or wrong.


The definition of good is the greatest possible benefit for the greatest possible number of people.
The definition of evil is anything less than that, anything less equal.
For example, a freedom is good. But a freedom only for the chosen few, and not for our so-called enemies, is evil. Anything threatening the equality of all people is bad.
As a certain artist expressed it, 'there must be security for all, or no-one is secure'.
I'm not talking about making people equal, but providing them a basic necessities equally, so then they can rise above that in their living or moral standards, by their own effort.
 

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.


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darth_josh wrote:Give me

darth_josh wrote:

Give me something 'evil' and I will connect the dots via degrees of separation from a religion.

Well, though I agree with Hamby that there is no single coherent definition of evil, my personal definition of "evil" is simple: the willingness to fuck over another person for your own gain.

In this way, there are tons of tiny evil things, such as racing up the merge lane to the last moment to force your way into slow-moving traffic; to selling mortgages to people who won't be able to afford the balloon payment at the end, and then selling that mortgage as a poison apple to other aggregators; to killing someone just for the fun of it, or to take their possessions, or out of anger; or to lie to your nation to convince them to invade and occupy another country; or to authorize the use of torture; and so on.

It's a simple definition, but it works for me. And by that, I can see tons of examples that have little or nothing to do with religion. But, if we were to get rid of religion, we might be able to more-accurately model our ownselves, and make use of that model to make society a better place.

"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers


darth_josh
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Luminon,You're going to have

Luminon,

You're going to have to do better than that. Two degrees of separation.

The followers of gods have always demanded that the fruits of labor be given to the deity with those giving the most receive the most. christinsanity excused itself from monetary morality using Luke 20.

In capitalism, the fruit of 'labor' is money.

 

Nigel.

One degree. In all of those instances the perpetrator believes they are the chosen one presented with a unique opportunity provided by their 'luck', deity, destiny, or other supernatural 'cause'.

The infamous disclaimer of: "Well, they agreed to it." is the vain attempt to secularly rationalize it.

 

 

 

 

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darth_josh wrote:Nigel.One

darth_josh wrote:

Nigel.

One degree. In all of those instances the perpetrator believes they are the chosen one presented with a unique opportunity provided by their 'luck', deity, destiny, or other supernatural 'cause'.

The infamous disclaimer of: "Well, they agreed to it." is the vain attempt to secularly rationalize it.

That seems to rationalize it a bit. I'm not sure you can apply that to the jerks who race ahead in the merge lanes to jam their way in at the last minute. I don't think they're thinking of anything except themselves. Granted, that's a tiny "evil," rather than a big one. And though people can attribute it to luck, or God, that doesn't mean they do, in all cases.

I suspect if religion were to go away, we'd still have jerks who selfishly fuck over other people.

"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers