Jobless father kills family, self

Renee Obsidianwords
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Jobless father kills family, self

 

LOS ANGELES, California (CNN) -- A man distraught because he could not find work shot and killed his mother-in-law, his wife and three sons and then killed himself inside a home in an upscale San Fernando Valley neighborhood, police said.

Authorities said the man had an MBA in finance but appeared to have been unemployed for several months and had worked for major accounting firms, such as Price Waterhouse.

READ STORY HERE

So, lets say you, reading this now, rents a home in an upscale neighborhood in "anywhere" USA and suddenly can't afford it---

What would you do?

Me, I would move to a home that I could afford and get ANY job to make ends meet. Now granted, I don't have my  mother-in-law living with me (who knows what kind of pressure she put on that man to provide for his family) but it sure seems like common sense to simply, move.

 

Maybe one of you can speak to the "American Dream" syndrome and how it has affected our economy(if at all) I mean we are a country of everything in excess, everything at your fingertips , does this create a sense of obligation in people?

 

My heart hurts thinking that this man felt the only option, the only solution to his problem was to kill himself and his family.


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And just another thought

And just another thought that came to me:

 

People need to find happiness outside of money! We live in a society that has everything we need at any time we need it. To recognize that and not take it for granted could potentially help a person get through tough financial times.

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We still live in a

We still live in a materialistic and sexist society. While there was no justification for what he did, our societal attitudes towards men can unfortunally lead to tunnel vision like this.

If you have a penis you are expected to climb the ladder. If a man is finincially supported by a woman or other family members, he is considered a loser.

WHY? If life is about being happy, then we should as a society be less concerned about what material things someone has or doesn't have and value the person.

In any given situation, it shouldn't be about what is between someone's legs, but who at the time, has the means. There should be no shame in a man being financially supported, or not being the dominate paycheck.

As long as the individual, woman or man, is making some sort of contribution and BOTH are happy with that contribution, then who is in the lead shouldn't matter.

If women want equality, part of that is also the ability to lead a family. Neither is wrong, but the attitude that your class, or your paycheck or your sex define your roll, is absurd. BEING HAPPY with oneself will allow you to be happy with others.

Make no mistake, what he did was wrong. But it doesn't help that we live in a society that says that men are losers if they ask for help.

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Quote:Maybe one of you can

Quote:

Maybe one of you can speak to the "American Dream" syndrome and how it has affected our economy(if at all) I mean we are a country of everything in excess, everything at your fingertips , does this create a sense of obligation in people?

 

I'm largely in agreement with Brian, except that I'll go a step further and suggest that this isn't so much a societal problem as it is a human 'problem'.

American Dream syndrome? Nah. Just good 'ol Gene Syndrome.

 

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Renee Obsidianwords

Renee Obsidianwords wrote:

 

... I mean we are a country of everything in excess, everything at your fingertips , does this create a sense of obligation in people? 

My heart hurts thinking that this man felt the only option, the only solution to his problem was to kill himself and his family.

I'm right there with you on the heart hurting part.

As far as a country of everything in excess and at our fingertips, yes and no.

The excess isn't always given away where it is most needed and where it could do the most good. Further, while there's plenty at the tips of our fingers it generally comes at a price... namely what we can afford to pay from those same fingertips... be it money or something else of value. Of course, to possess money usually requires work of some sort and therein lies the sense of obligation, the sense of being responsible to provide, the sense of failure when one can no longer compete.

In a nation of full of people who are, by any criteria, very wealthy, it is indeed both tragic and depressing that these types of unfortunate events occur. I wonder where he might have sought help and how many times he might have been 'turned away'. Sad, very sad.


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One thing to consider:  We

One thing to consider:  We don't know how much debt this guy had, and there are some situations where once you've dug your hole, it is really tough to get out.  I've had employees who were in their mid-20s with no higher education who were having a third of their minimum wage check garnished for child support.  They were having to work two 30 hour a week jobs to have enough to make their child support and afford their own rent.  In a really bad economy, I can see how that would lead to a no-win situation.  If you don't work 60 hours, you go to jail.  You can't get a better job because you don't have time to get any new schooling or skills.

I read somewhere that the average doctor has $200k in debt when he graduates medical school.  Add a mortgage, two cars, and two kids into the mix, and you have a recipe for disaster, even at 100k a year income.

I guess my only point is that people like Renee or me, who have no children and are relatively flexible as to living arrangements, monthly bills, etc, are far better equipped to deal with bad economies than those who have already bought into the "American Dream" at 19% interest.

 

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   Yes, the extreme

   Yes, the extreme pressure that most of us endure to stay alive, much less to be truly successful, can make anyone snap if that pressure is unrelenting.   As for the extreme over-reaction of this fellow all I can say is that no one, regardless of intelligence, status, or wealth is immune to mental illness.  Perhaps this man was suffering from a Charles Whitman complex.....who knows ?

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I saw a photo of that house.

I saw a photo of that house. There were TWO CARS in the garage, behind a crime scene tape. Better to shoot the whole family and himself, than to sell a car??? What a patriot.

I don't know what are laws in America, but here, when a family is on a social support, no money can be demanded from them, even if they have debts. And when someone from that family is able, then he/she can earn some money secretly. Such a private and state money together can give a decent living for a several years, at least here, which gives a good chance to find a job. Of course, it involves a masquerade for the labour office, being careful to not blurt out anything to an officer calling to check the people if they aren't working by any chance.

Yeah, it is now tough to live in America. One person known to my dad was trying to make his living there, he worked as a truck driver, had a house, etc. But his work didn't gave him enough of money to sustain himself and pay the mortgage, so he lost everything, the house too, and moved all his property, (some stuff and one motorbike) into one ship container and got it shipped here, to his homeland.

There's no point in murders and suicide, when tough times comes. The point is in survival, and as you surely agree, some things just doesn't lead to the survival. American revolutionaries surely didn't have two cars, when they fought for a freedom of the country.

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Wow, Luminon. You actually

Wow, Luminon. You actually wrote something I agree with.


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Luminon wrote:I saw a photo

Luminon wrote:

I saw a photo of that house. There were TWO CARS in the garage, behind a crime scene tape. Better to shoot the whole family and himself, than to sell a car??? What a patriot.

I saw the same photo. My initial thought however was that the cars were possibly about to be repossessed. But to be honest, there was simply no way to know just by looking at the cars, whether they were of some significant value or not.

Luminon wrote:
I don't know what are laws in America, but here, when a family is on a social support, no money can be demanded from them, even if they have debts. And when someone from that family is able, then he/she can earn some money secretly.

The laws in America are not the same as where you are.

 

Luminon wrote:

Yeah, it is now tough to live in America. One person known to my dad was trying to make his living there, he worked as a truck driver, had a house, etc. But his work didn't gave him enough of money to sustain himself and pay the mortgage, so he lost everything, the house too, and moved all his property, (some stuff and one motorbike) into one ship container and got it shipped here, to his homeland.

Nice that your dad's acquaintance was able to get back to his homeland. Wonder if the man who killed his family and then himself had that option to get out. If he was a U.S. citizen ( and maybe further details are now available on the original news story), he may not have had other family in other parts of the world.



Luminon wrote:
There's no point in murders and suicide, when tough times comes.

I don't think this man thought "tough times" were upon him and his family... I think he must have thought something far worse. But I suppose this depends on the definition of tough times.

 

Luminon wrote:
The point is in survival, and as you surely agree, some things just doesn't lead to the survival.

I mostly agree with what you have stated about survival.

 

Luminon wrote:
American revolutionaries surely didn't have two cars, when they fought for a freedom of the country.

In this instance, comparing 18th century America(ns) to America(ns) of today doesn't work well. Revolutionaries, by and large, had essentially nothing of value to lose and therefore wouldn't have been nearly as distraught with agonizing grief over the tremendous financial loss of self-worth that in todays American society appears commonplace. Does that make the Americans of the mid to late 1700's tougher and more resilient to adversity ? I'd say, yes, it does. But the times were very different. Americans of this century aren't as accustomed to survival of the fittest. Many don't realize that their own lives are a special something of 'great value'.... far greater than any job or material possession.

 

 

 


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One thing the Europeans

One thing the Europeans don't understand is just how bad "tough times" can be for a person in the US - ie just how little there is to help the poor in this country. You're talking about living on the street and eating food from garbage cans on the bad end. Obviously dying would be greatly preferable to that. It's shameful but that's how it is here. And some members here think we do too much for the poor now.

 

I disagree with those who say life is still worth living. Life in and of itself is utterly worthless. It's the quality of the life that matters.

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Quote:I disagree with those

Quote:
I disagree with those who say life is still worth living. Life in and of itself is utterly worthless. It's the quality of the life that matters.

I'm gonna go with you on this one.  It seems patently obvious that there are lives which are so horrible that death would be better.  I can't find the justification for believing that life is somehow the ultimate trump card in any discussion of meaning or value.  I'm not saying I think this guy should have killed himself.  I dunno.  However, I am saying that it's possible that given his available options, it's possible that he may have been justified in doing it.

Quote:
One thing the Europeans don't understand is just how bad "tough times" can be for a person in the US - ie just how little there is to help the poor in this country.

Well, it's kind of a paradox.  On the one hand, there simply is no such thing in America as the kind of poverty you can find in the third world.  No matter how poor you are in America, you don't have to starve to death.   While there aren't many good options for the poor, considering how much we have in available resources, there are options.  It's just that comparatively speaking, most of them suck.  Many European countries do have much better options for the poor, given the wealth and resources of the country.

Consider it this way.  If you could guarantee a third world country that no matter what, nobody would starve to death, but they would have to go through a bunch of beaurocratic bullshit and hump it to soup kitchens to get crappy handouts, they'd consider it a boon.

Quote:
You're talking about living on the street and eating food from garbage cans on the bad end. Obviously dying would be greatly preferable to that.

Then again, living on the streets and eating out of a can is better than living in the desert and starving to death because there is literally no food to be found.  It's a matter of perspective.  If everybody's poor and starving to death, you don't feel like you're getting shafted by anyone in particular.  However, if you're eating out of the garbage can of a man who can afford two Hummers and a yacht, you might notice a slight discrepancy in the allocation of wealth.

Quote:
And some members here think we do too much for the poor now.

If only atheism guaranteed rationality.

 

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MattShizzle wrote:I disagree

MattShizzle wrote:

I disagree with those who say life is still worth living. Life in and of itself is utterly worthless. It's the quality of the life that matters.

Quality of life. What is a good quality of life in your opinion Matt?

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I'd say at least middle

I'd say at least middle class - say $30,000 a year for an individual. An absolute minimum for life to be worth living would be having a home (rent, own or live with someone), enough food and SOME comforts (at least a TV with cable and some internet access, heat and AC.&nbspEye-wink I would consider the average life in the projects not worth living and can not blame them at all if they decide to take some from someone that is above average.

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Hambydammit wrote:   

Hambydammit wrote:

    Many European countries do have much better options for the poor, given the wealth and resources of the country.

    ....unless you live in Albania, the poorest country in Europe. 

Last I checked, it is even ranked beneath Romania ( remember the news stories about the nightmarish Romanian orphanages that were run by the state ?  They seemed like something out of a Clive Barker movie. )

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I'd certainly rather be dead

I'd certainly rather be dead than working at McDonalds or such.


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ProzacDeathWish

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

Hambydammit wrote:

    Many European countries do have much better options for the poor, given the wealth and resources of the country.

    ....unless you live in Albania, the poorest country in Europe. 

Last I checked, it is even ranked beneath Romania ( remember the news stories about the nightmarish Romanian orphanages that were run by the state ?  They seemed like something out of a Clive Barker movie. )

There's that tricky word "many" in Mr. Hamby's characterization, which allows Albania to slip by the radar and yet do no damage to the premise.

Sorry.  Couldn't resist being a jackass.

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Couple of things:Definitely

Couple of things:

Definitely I'm not pointing to Europe as the end all and be all of poor living.  There are certainly some countries that have really shitty situations at this time.  I only mean to say that America lags behind countries with comparable resources and wealth in terms of caring for the poor.

Matt, I'd like you to consider that it's pretty presumptuous of you to.. well... presume on someone else's ability to decide their own life's worth.  Some pretty noteworthy pro athletes grew up in the projects, and if they'd simply offed themselves as soon as they could pull a trigger, they'd have missed out on a lot of material success.  Furthermore, material possessions are not the only thing happy people use to measure their happiness.  Just a few months ago, I got to hang out with a guy who literally owned nothing more than his bicycle, a couple of changes of clothes, a multitool, and some spare parts for his bike.  He lived that way on purpose, having sold all his stuff so he could travel the country with no encumbrance.  Wherever he went, he exchanged odd jobs for a couch to sleep on and food to eat.  As far as I could tell, this was a very happy man.

I know a lot of people who live pretty happy lives on far less than $30k.  Without a mortgage, car note, or kids, it's pretty easy to get three or four people into an apartment and have all the food and booze you want for $12-15k a year.  I know lots of people who do it.  This kind of goes back to the discussion on the American Dream vs. Real Happiness.  It doesn't take much to exist in America on very little income.  You just have to have a slightly different set of values than a lot of Americans.

 

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DamnDirtyApe wrote:There's

DamnDirtyApe wrote:

There's that tricky word "many" in Mr. Hamby's characterization, which allows Albania to slip by the radar and yet do no damage to the premise.

Sorry.  Couldn't resist being a jackass.

                                     You Bastard !!!

 

 

                     (     )

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Just saw the McDonalds

Just saw the McDonalds comment, Matt.  I know people who work in a dishpit in a restaurant, and want to work there.  It's mindless work that pays them enough to buy food and booze, and that's all they want.  They won't take promotions to the prep kitchen because they don't want the pressure.

The fact is, some people don't measure happiness by money.  Again, what's good for you is fine, but please be careful assigning your own values to others.

Oh, and DamnDirtyApe, thanks for noticing how carefully I choose my words.  Would that others were so observant.

 

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I'm looking at myself. I

I'm looking at myself. I wouldn't want to live under that situation. I couldn't have afforded the projects when I was making just over $20000 a year (mainly due medical costs. ) I might as well bring this up. My unemployment ran out Tuesday. I hadn't been taking my blood pressure pills in order to save them up in case something didn't come up quick, like at OVR tomorrow. Luckilly, I got a letter today that the unemployment got extended 13 more weeks.

No, theists, it wasn't a miracle and I'm not going to believe your bullshit down. I happen to be about as materialistic as a person can be.

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Hambydammit wrote: Oh, and

Hambydammit wrote:

 

Oh, and DamnDirtyApe, thanks for noticing how carefully I choose my words.  Would that others were so observant.

 

                        Geez, Hamby  I'll go and delete my reference to Alabania if it will make you feel better.

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MattShizzle wrote:I'd say at

MattShizzle wrote:

I'd say at least middle class - say $30,000 a year for an individual. An absolute minimum for life to be worth living would be having a home (rent, own or live with someone), enough food and SOME comforts (at least a TV with cable and some internet access, heat and AC.&nbspEye-wink I would consider the average life in the projects not worth living and can not blame them at all if they decide to take some from someone that is above average.

I agree the minimum, in addition to a job, would be a place to call home, some food and entertainment.

-Food can be purchased on a budget. Don't forget, we Americans feel it is normal to GORGE ourselves (just look at the portions you are given in most restaurants)

-Don't need TV or cable to live. A good book should suffice, and by candlelight, to save on electricity.

If a person is just getting by and wants a TV or Internet...then they should get a second job or a job that pays more or stop buying drugs or whatever other wasteful BS they are spending their money on.

********************************************************

Lets say that one individual makes $8/hour and works 40 hours per week. Assuming 20% tax out of that check is around $256/ week take home - 1,024 a month (give or take a few bucks)

Food:

Maybe $1 for a loaf of bread (about 20 piece of bread *10 sandwiches) 3X a day you will need 2 loaves for a week. $2.00

A pound of meat could yield around 6 sandwiches (depends on how you slice it, stack it etc) at a cost of around 4.00/pound 3 X a day you would need a bit over 3 pounds. $12.00

Condiment: depends on what you like but lets say mayonnaise $3 (a week? maybe?)

A pound of apples (maybe around 7?)costs around $1/ pound...an apple a day....  Smiling  $1.00

Canned fruits and veges- a whole can of fruit or veges can be split into 2 different servings so you get 2 servings in one can. You can find sales for like .60 cents a can. 2-3 times a day you will need 7 cans of each (14 total) est: $9.00

Milk around 2.69 a gallon

This is just a rough example but a person could eat for around $20 a week.

******************************************

Fun: Books, board games, volunteering (when a person has time between jobs, plus great networking/experience) Books can be purchased at garage sales or checked out at the library or just borrow them, same thing for board games. Some volunteer functions will offer food to the volunteers...saving more money.

******************************************

Electricity/heat: Get on a budget plan which would vary per area but even keeping it below $30 a month

 

I guess what I am saying is a person CAN live on 16,640 a year...which by definition is well below 'middle class' .

***disclaimer : all assumptions or on a single employed person and I do not claim to be great at math!******

 

 

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I'd definitely not want to

I'd definitely not want to live like that. Having to work more than 40 hrs a week would DEFINITELY make life not worth living. So would having to eat nasty stuff like that. I wouldn't consider volunteering fun - I'd consider it work without the compensation of getting paid. Lunchmeat? Canned vegetables? Mayo? Milk? I feel like puking just thinking about it.

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MattShizzle wrote:I'm

MattShizzle wrote:

I'm looking at myself. I wouldn't want to live under that situation. I couldn't have afforded the projects when I was making just over $20000 a year (mainly due medical costs. ) I might as well bring this up. My unemployment ran out Tuesday. I hadn't been taking my blood pressure pills in order to save them up in case something didn't come up quick, like at OVR tomorrow. Luckilly, I got a letter today that the unemployment got extended 13 more weeks.

No, theists, it wasn't a miracle and I'm not going to believe your bullshit down. I happen to be about as materialistic as a person can be.

Dude, that sucks. I get so pissed off hearing about how people have to give up their medication because of $$....I wish medicine was free but I guess the pharms wouldn't make money.

What type of work are you looking for Matt?

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Basically something not

Basically something not physical (I can't be on my feet even 15 minutes) not dealing with the public (Aspergers) and not gross. Maybe data entry? I'm going through OVR (Office of Vocational Rehabilitation ) which says I qualify at the highest level due to physical and emotional issues. Problem was it took until last month to get in and by then unemployment was almost over - 6 months isn't close to enough nowadays for unemployment. I qualify for SSI but it would be less than 1000 a month and takes 6 months to get it, which is ridiculous. Imagine a working person gets disabled through a home accident - who has enough money to survive 6 months without any income?

 

By saving the pills up I meant so I could take them all once I knew no more money was coming in.

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MattShizzle wrote:I'd

MattShizzle wrote:

I'd definitely not want to live like that. Having to work more than 40 hrs a week would DEFINITELY make life not worth living. So would having to eat nasty stuff like that. I wouldn't consider volunteering fun - I'd consider it work without the compensation of getting paid. Lunchmeat? Canned vegetables? Mayo? Milk? I feel like puking just thinking about it.

Well, my example was extreme  Sticking out tongue

 

I guess it goes back to your original statement:

"I disagree with those who say life is still worth living. Life in and of itself is utterly worthless. It's the quality of the life that matters."

If you held an opinion that life was worth living, the idea of lunchmeat, canned veges may come across as a way to survive and make ends meet!

I suppose it is all point of view. By the way Matt, hang in there!

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Quote:I know a lot of people

Quote:
I know a lot of people who live pretty happy lives on far less than $30k.  Without a mortgage, car note, or kids, it's pretty easy to get three or four people into an apartment and have all the food and booze you want for $12-15k a year.  I know lots of people who do it.  This kind of goes back to the discussion on the American Dream vs. Real Happiness.  It doesn't take much to exist in America on very little income.  You just have to have a slightly different set of values than a lot of Americans.

...Isn't it odd, though, that even with this tremendous imbalance in desires we (I'm painting in broad strokes - 'we' being North American economies) still can't find a really satisfactory middle ground?

Take, for example, the fellow who traverses the country on his bike and owns nothing - essentially on a self-imposed permanent adventure for the rest of his life. I know a few people who'd love to do that (Hell, I'm one of them). This lifestyle would be on the extreme 'low-cost' end of the scale as far as state expense is concerned, and keeps the person happy. Then we have people in Matt's circumstances with his desires - more towards the 'expensive' end of the scale (though certainly not towards the extreme end); shouldn't we be able to balance this out so Matt gets his state-sponsored TV and Internet service while the wanderers take, essentially, nothing?

 

(...Well, I suppose first we'd have to take the conversation down the road of whether or not wealthier people should chip-in for poorer people, and I'm a waffler in that area. On one hand, I think very good points are made in sociology that welfare systems promote less violence / suffering; on the other hand, if you've worked hard and earned a lot of money (not to say that poor people don't work hard - just that wealthy people often work harder than they are given credit for), well, I don't know it's fair for to say that you should just hand-over man hours selflessly. I feel that it's sort-of like running into a burning building to save people - it's an awesome thing to do, but do I have the right to demand that you do it?)

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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Admittedly, I live in a

Admittedly, I live in a pretty cheap-to-live-in town, but I make $20K a year on my PhD student stipend and I manage to live pretty high on the hog, given that I'm supporting no one and I own my car (I made more money while I was in the private sector right after undergrad and it's paid off).  

 

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MattShizzle wrote:I disagree

MattShizzle wrote:

I disagree with those who say life is still worth living. Life in and of itself is utterly worthless. It's the quality of the life that matters.

Thank you Matt for providing the example for my last point. You are one of the many who choose not to realize that your own life (sans materialism) is worth living.... unless you are able to meet your own standard of what makes your life worthwhile and worth living.

I don't see any problem in such thinking, for each of us must decide for ourselves the questions and answers of the value of our own existence.

Quote:
I can't find the justification for believing that life is somehow the ultimate trump card in any discussion of meaning or value.

I see your point, but without life, there would be (heheh) little discussion of the meaning or value of living.

 

 

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And some members here think we do too much for the poor now.

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If only atheism guaranteed rationality.

Agree wholly on both counts.

 


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Kevin R Brown wrote:Quote:I

Kevin R Brown wrote:

Quote:
I know a lot of people who live pretty happy lives on far less than $30k.  Without a mortgage, car note, or kids, it's pretty easy to get three or four people into an apartment and have all the food and booze you want for $12-15k a year.  I know lots of people who do it.  This kind of goes back to the discussion on the American Dream vs. Real Happiness.  It doesn't take much to exist in America on very little income.  You just have to have a slightly different set of values than a lot of Americans.

...Isn't it odd, though, that even with this tremendous imbalance in desires we (I'm painting in broad strokes - 'we' being North American economies) still can't find a really satisfactory middle ground?

Take, for example, the fellow who traverses the country on his bike and owns nothing - essentially on a self-imposed permanent adventure for the rest of his life. I know a few people who'd love to do that (Hell, I'm one of them). This lifestyle would be on the extreme 'low-cost' end of the scale as far as state expense is concerned, and keeps the person happy. Then we have people in Matt's circumstances with his desires - more towards the 'expensive' end of the scale (though certainly not towards the extreme end); shouldn't we be able to balance this out so Matt gets his state-sponsored TV and Internet service while the wanderers take, essentially, nothing?

 

(...Well, I suppose first we'd have to take the conversation down the road of whether or not wealthier people should chip-in for poorer people, and I'm a waffler in that area. On one hand, I think very good points are made in sociology that welfare systems promote less violence / suffering; on the other hand, if you've worked hard and earned a lot of money (not to say that poor people don't work hard - just that wealthy people often work harder than they are given credit for), well, I don't know it's fair for to say that you should just hand-over man hours selflessly. I feel that it's sort-of like running into a burning building to save people - it's an awesome thing to do, but do I have the right to demand that you do it?)

...only setting foot on the road you paved with regards to wealthy chipping in for poor...If there were ever a time that ALL jobs were taken (and yes that means even all the jobs at McDonald's for those of you who see that as 'low of the low') Then perhaps a plan to give money to those who seriously tried to obtain jobs but found none? Maybe in a distant future when many of our jobs are outsourced to places like India...then the govt could cough up some dough for the jobs they took away from Americans?

Here is the thing, I think that if a person looks and looks and looks and tries and tries and tries he/she will get a job!

If a person wants to survive (home and food) they will do what they need to make ends meet. If said person doesn't look or perhaps decides that a job is 'beneath' them...well then it is their fault, not the fault of the wealthy.

 

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Hambydammit wrote: It

Hambydammit wrote:

 It doesn't take much to exist in America on very little income.  You just have to have a slightly different set of values than a lot of Americans.

I have a gemfile on my desktop and to it I just added the above quote from Hambydammit.

This is a gem, people. Remember it.  USA1


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I think they should be

I think they should be forced to support the poor. I'd rob and kill rich people before I'd work at McDonalds. And those sort of jobs don't pay enough to live on. Don't you think the rich would rather give up some of the (way too much) money they have than have a knife thrust through their throat or eye and all that's on them at least taken? It is their fault if people can't get a job that pays enough and that isn't worse than dying would be anyway.

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MattShizzle wrote:I'd

MattShizzle wrote:

I'd certainly rather be dead than working at McDonalds or such.

I'm thinking you mean, if you had to work at a McDonalds for more than just a couple months, no ?

When I was a teen, I worked at a McD's and a mom and pop Italian restaurant for about a year and a half.  Combined, I was putting in about 35-45 hrs. per week. It was hard work and, of course, it didn't pay a whole helluva lot, but I was young and any money I made was all mine. Wouldn't want to have to do that now, that's fer sure.


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I honestly couldn't do it

I honestly couldn't do it for a day I don't think. I can't stand the smell of fast food and am extremely squeamish when it comes to stuff like trash and other peoples' food. I worked at Woolworth when I went to college and never want a job dealing with customers again. Customers suck. At least if you're a pimp and they piss you off you can bitch-slap them.

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MattShizzle wrote:I think

MattShizzle wrote:

I think they should be forced to support the poor. I'd rob and kill rich people before I'd work at McDonalds. And those sort of jobs don't pay enough to live on. Don't you think the rich would rather give up some of the (way too much) money they have than have a knife thrust through their throat or eye and all that's on them at least taken? It is their fault if people can't get a job that pays enough and that isn't worse than dying would be anyway.

Matt, many of those jobs pay well above minimum wage. And they encourage growth from within...did you know that there are "managers" of that fast food chain that make close to 100K a year? Even their keyholders can make upwards of 30K.  ... however a person would need to be on their feet for about 30 hours a week...so that wouldn't necessarily fit in with your needs or desires.

I am not sure I am following your thought process regarding the wealthy and their responsibility to the non-rich. Maybe if I understood the parameters....where is the cut off?

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I personally don't think the

I personally don't think the richest person in a country should be allowed to have more than maybe 25 times whatever the poorest person in the same country has. I see equality as THE most important value in a society.

 

From what I see, 99% (at least) of how succesful someone is in life is purely due to luck.

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Quote:...only setting foot

Quote:
...only setting foot on the road you paved with regards to wealthy chipping in for poor...If there were ever a time that ALL jobs were taken (and yes that means even all the jobs at McDonald's for those of you who see that as 'low of the low')

Renee, begging your pardon, I feel that this idea is built on an untrue assumption:

That all people are equally capable of even dealing with labor, at the conceptual level.

 

We can dismiss this as 'laziness', or we can take a harder look at our one-size-fits-enough system and ask ourselves how likely it is that every human being is going to be prepared to play one particular game. I'll put my bias out front:

I, personally, cannot play this game. I despise this game, in fact.

 

My train of thought while I'm on the clock always devolves down to the same resounding thought: These people are taking my time and ridiculing me, and I am getting nothing of value in return (now, I'm not saying this is true - I'm saying that, regardless of it's untruth, this is the thought that rings through my head). I get gradually more apathetic or gradually more angry, depending on the environment, and after a year or so I simply stop coming-in. People get upset, I have financial problems, yadda yadda yadda. This is not a fun cycle.

Moreover, this is a terribly unhealthy cycle, both for myself and anyone who has the displeasure of working around me. When I was working for a pizza delivery call-centre, there were many occassions where I had the serious desire to render terrible harm to people out of frustration. If it's accurate to say that many people have a tipping point, I nearly hit mine.

 

So, imagine someone in my situation who has even just a little less patience / tolerance. They either go-out with a final grisly act like the fellow described in this article, or they decide 'fuck it' and join the always readily accessible organization of the criminal and the rest of their life becomes devoted to hurting people and being a cash drain (either directly through theft or slightly less directly by being locked-up in prison).

So, what can we do? Off the top of my head, I can think of three things:

We can beat our head against the tired old wall and say, 'Well, they should just go get jobs!' and watch this idealistic demand fail because people like myself are not interested in a job, and still others simply cannot (for one reason or another) find good, steady work.

We can (I insist) implement my suggestion of heavy euthanasia, culling-out population members who cannot / will not participate in the system or whom volutarily wish to be put down, and couple this with birth control to keep our population at a more managable population level.

We can have people who work and make income pool small portions of their income together to support those who refuse to / cannot work, so they do not become cancerous agents and retain something to lose. Again, I will not demand that anyone do this; I don't feel it's my right. It is, afterall, your money. However, hoarding what we percieve to be our own personal treasure-troves and rejecting realistic facts will not create safe or stable systems.

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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Kevin R Brown

Kevin R Brown wrote:

Quote:
...only setting foot on the road you paved with regards to wealthy chipping in for poor...If there were ever a time that ALL jobs were taken (and yes that means even all the jobs at McDonald's for those of you who see that as 'low of the low')

Renee, begging your pardon, I feel that this idea is built on an untrue assumption:

That all people are equally capable of even dealing with labor, at the conceptual level.

 

We can dismiss this as 'laziness', or we can take a harder look at our one-size-fits-enough system and ask ourselves how likely it is that every human being is going to be prepared to play one particular game. I'll put my bias out front:

I, personally, cannot play this game. I despise this game, in fact.

 

My train of thought while I'm on the clock always devolves down to the same resounding thought: These people are taking my time and ridiculing me, and I am getting nothing of value in return (now, I'm not saying this is true - I'm saying that, regardless of it's untruth, this is the thought that rings through my head). I get gradually more apathetic or gradually more angry, depending on the environment, and after a year or so I simply stop coming-in. People get upset, I have financial problems, yadda yadda yadda. This is not a fun cycle.

Moreover, this is a terribly unhealthy cycle, both for myself and anyone who has the displeasure of working around me. When I was working for a pizza delivery call-centre, there were many occassions where I had the serious desire to render terrible harm to people out of frustration. If it's accurate to say that many people have a tipping point, I nearly hit mine.

 

So, imagine someone in my situation who has even just a little less patience / tolerance. They either go-out with a final grisly act like the fellow described in this article, or they decide 'fuck it' and join the always readily accessible organization of the criminal and the rest of their life becomes devoted to hurting people and being a cash drain (either directly through theft or slightly less directly by being locked-up in prison).

So, what can we do? Off the top of my head, I can think of three things:

We can beat our head against the tired old wall and say, 'Well, they should just go get jobs!' and watch this idealistic demand fail because people like myself are not interested in a job, and still others simply cannot (for one reason or another) find good, steady work.

We can (I insist) implement my suggestion of heavy euthanasia, culling-out population members who cannot / will not participate in the system or whom volutarily wish to be put down, and couple this with birth control to keep our population at a more managable population level.

We can have people who work and make income pool small portions of their income together to support those who refuse to / cannot work, so they do not become cancerous agents and retain something to lose. Again, I will not demand that anyone do this; I don't feel it's my right. It is, afterall, your money. However, hoarding what we percieve to be our own personal treasure-troves and rejecting realistic facts will not create safe or stable systems.

SO you are saying there is no job that you would be comfortable in? Then are you going to be part of the herd that is culled? (And I mean no nastiness with this, just curious)

 

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What makes you think someone

What makes you think someone would just be "culled? " If a society was going to be that cold, and I was in that situation I'd just try to take out as many members of that society as I could in as grisly way as possible before they took me out.

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MattShizzle wrote:What makes

MattShizzle wrote:

What makes you think someone would just be "culled? " If a society was going to be that cold, and I was in that situation I'd just try to take out as many members of that society as I could in as grisly way as possible before they took me out.

Matt, from what I've heard from you over all this time, I'm assuming that a couple of 10 year old girls with a jump rope could end your rampage before it properly began.  

"The whole conception of God is a conception derived from ancient Oriental despotisms. It is a conception quite unworthy of free men."
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Quote:SO you are saying

Quote:
SO you are saying there is no job that you would be comfortable in? Then are you going to be part of the herd that is culled? (And I mean no nastiness with this, just curious)

Well, I can't honestly say that I know for sure that there is no work I enjoy; I can say that I certainly do not enjoy a traditional Boss -> Subordinate -> Workers environment where I'm 'on the clock'.

I'm mellow. I like to relax, read, explore, wander, etc. Telling me that you just arbitrarily need something done within a certain timeframe, or that you really need so see my 'numbers' up at a certain level within a certain timeframe only makes me angry. If you want to rush, fine; but don't fucking drag me into it.

Of course, the problem with that attitude is that everyone wants to rush. It's a big part of the game. So, if you're not into that, you can't play (I'm not criticizing the system; I'm just saying, that's the way it happens to work).

 

And, yes. I'd certainly be one of the people to be euthanized.

Matt: Don't be so dramatic. Would it be so terrible? They sit you down on a comfortable chair in a room with a few other people, perhaps put on some music, and slowly cycle-out the oxygen in favor of nitrogen. You'd drift-off to sleep and be dead without even knowing that you were going-under.

We think it would be awful because of:

A) Our bias that puts such a weighted value on the lives of our own species.

B) Cultural memes propagating the idea that life is sacred.

People would still be kind to each other, the sun would still rise in the morning, children would still watch the Power Rangers beat-up monsters every Saturday morning. In addition to that, we would just finally have accepted our mortality by acknowleding that shuffling-off of the mortal coil is not such a big deal.

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"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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DamnDirtyApe

DamnDirtyApe wrote:

MattShizzle wrote:

What makes you think someone would just be "culled? " If a society was going to be that cold, and I was in that situation I'd just try to take out as many members of that society as I could in as grisly way as possible before they took me out.

Matt, from what I've heard from you over all this time, I'm assuming that a couple of 10 year old girls with a jump rope could end your rampage before it properly began.  

 

He has to protect all 'em bitches he ho's

 

 


 


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To be honest, I'd kill

To be honest, I'd kill thousands, millions, even billions of people before I'd subject myself to working at McDonalds. If I had the choice between working at McDonalds and destroying the entire universe.... I wouldn't be working at McDonalds. I see it as I need so much and if I can't get it in a way I find acceptable you better give it to me or I'll take it from you, and you might not survive. I'd rob and kill and maybe go even further to intimidate future people to cooperate - that includes disfiguration (to the point of cutting off arms and legs) and rape. Realistically, I'd probably just kill myself before it got to that point, but maybe I might decide to teach the rich a lesson?

 

Yes, I hate the rich and if the revolution ever comes I'd gladly give my life to take a few rich fucks with me.

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Some interesting information

Some interesting information based off the 2004 US census from the heritage foundation

"..The best news is that remaining poverty can readily be reduced further, particularly among children. There are two main reasons that American children are poor: Their parents don't work much, and fathers are absent from the home.

In good economic times or bad, the typical poor family with children is supported by only 800 hours of work during a year: That amounts to 16 hours of work per week. If work in each family were raised to 2,000 hours per year--the equivalent of one adult working 40 hours per week throughout the year--nearly 75 percent of poor children would be lifted out of official poverty."

**seriously? 16 hours a week at work?**

• -Forty-six percent of all poor households actually own their own homes. The average home owned by persons classified as poor by the Census Bureau is a three-bedroom house with one-and-a-half baths, a garage, and a porch or patio.


• -Seventy-six percent of poor households have air conditioning. By contrast, 30 years ago, only 36 percent of the entire U.S. population enjoyed air conditioning.


• -Only 6 percent of poor households are overcrowded. More than two-thirds have more than two rooms per person.


• -The average poor American has more living space than the average individual living in Paris, London, Vienna, Athens, and other cities throughout Europe. (These comparisons are to the average citizens in foreign countries, not to those classified as poor.)


• -Nearly three-quarters of poor households own a car; 30 percent own two or more cars.


• -Ninety-seven percent of poor households have a color television; over half own two or more color televisions.


• -Seventy-eight percent have a VCR or DVD player; 62 percent have cable or satellite TV reception.


• -Seventy-three percent own microwave ovens, more than half have a stereo, and a third have an automatic dishwasher.
 

***EDIT*** I also want to point out that the entire article once read could speak to the need of redefining "poverty"

 

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MattShizzle wrote:To be

MattShizzle wrote:

To be honest, I'd kill thousands, millions, even billions of people before I'd subject myself to working at McDonalds. If I had the choice between working at McDonalds and destroying the entire universe.... I wouldn't be working at McDonalds. I see it as I need so much and if I can't get it in a way I find acceptable you better give it to me or I'll take it from you, and you might not survive. I'd rob and kill and maybe go even further to intimidate future people to cooperate - that includes disfiguration (to the point of cutting off arms and legs) and rape. Realistically, I'd probably just kill myself before it got to that point, but maybe I might decide to teach the rich a lesson?

 

Yes, I hate the rich and if the revolution ever comes I'd gladly give my life to take a few rich fucks with me.

 


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MattShizzle wrote:To be

MattShizzle wrote:

To be honest, I'd kill thousands, millions, even billions of people before I'd subject myself to working at McDonalds. If I had the choice between working at McDonalds and destroying the entire universe.... I wouldn't be working at McDonalds. I see it as I need so much and if I can't get it in a way I find acceptable you better give it to me or I'll take it from you, and you might not survive. I'd rob and kill and maybe go even further to intimidate future people to cooperate - that includes disfiguration (to the point of cutting off arms and legs) and rape. Realistically, I'd probably just kill myself before it got to that point, but maybe I might decide to teach the rich a lesson?

 

Yes, I hate the rich and if the revolution ever comes I'd gladly give my life to take a few rich fucks with me.

 

I'm pretty sure thoughts like these are why theists question our morals.

 

You should come up with an innovative entrepreneurial idea, and then sell it. You could sell it over the Internet, that way you don't have to deal with your customers in person. Then perhaps you will become rich yourself. That would keep you away from McDonald's (which I'm told is similar to the ninth level of Hell), keep you off your feet. All that good stuff.

 

The trick is finding a good idea. However, you seem like a creative chap. Just look at the scheme you cooked up to take out the rich people!

 

I'm trying to help you buddy. I worry about you.

"The idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I am unable to take seriously." [Albert Einstein, letter to Hoffman and Dukas, 1946]


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Here are a couple of .pdf

Here are a couple of .pdf study links with content I found interesting...

http://www-news.uchicago.edu/releases/07/pdf/070417.jobs.pdf

In the above study, tables include: Job Satisfaction and General Happiness by Occupational Prestige, Top and Bottom (12) Occupations in Job Satisfaction and Top and Bottom Occupations in General Happiness.

http://www-news.uchicago.edu/releases/07/pdf/070827.jobs.pdf

This study includes socio-demographic reciprocal relations. Tables include: Trends in Job Satisfaction, 1972-2006 and Satisfaction by Socio-Demographics.

Neither study is what one might call exhaustive, but they are informative. Several other studies I found were only available if you were a member of their website.

 

 


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I wouldn't trust anything by

I wouldn't trust anything by the Heritage Foundation. They're an extreme right wing group. Realistically, 99% of success (at least) is due to luck.

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Matt, that's not realistic

Matt, that's not realistic at all.  Success is not at least 99% due to luck.  People put very hard work into earning their degrees, finding good jobs or otherwise making themselves successful by their own standards.  Please, just because you are in an unfortunate position, do not cheapen the very hard work that others put into their lives by attributing their success relative to yours to 'luck', it's insulting and makes you look pathetic.

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MattShizzle wrote:I wouldn't

MattShizzle wrote:

I wouldn't trust anything by the Heritage Foundation. They're an extreme right wing group.

 

By and large I'd agree with you on this Matt.

Here is their "ABOUT US" mission statement:

Our Mission


Founded in 1973, The Heritage Foundation is a research and educational institute - a think tank - whose mission is to formulate and promote conservative public policies based on the principles of free enterprise, limited government, individual freedom, traditional American values, and a strong national defense.
 

http://www.heritage.org/about/

 

I remember hearing that the central headquarters for Heritage had a fire, think it was just a couple months ago-- maybe June or July. Anyway, never heard about how much dollar damage the fire amounted to, or if anyone was injured/killed.