Philosophy without god?

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Philosophy without god?

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Ok, so I’m in a philosophy class at college and I think the whole thing is pointless. It seems to me that most all of the problems in philosophy can be solved very easily by just accepting that there is no god, instead of doing all this lawyer-ish dancing around to try and figure out some way how something could be plausible within the frame of “there is a god”. The meaning for life for example. Philosophers for ages have been spending a great deal of time on this “question”. They assume that there must be some divine being(s) and so there must be a reason. There is no prescribed reason! You make your own reason and give meaning to your own life! Simple as that!

 

My philosophy book spends a large portion of the pages on “the problem of evil”. Problem? What problem? “Evil” exists because people do things out of self interest, or a host of other complex reasons. The hurricane that obliterates a town is not unexplainable evil; it’s a naturally occurring weather phenomenon that happens because of a set of basic environmental conditions, many of which can be accurately predicted by science.

 

Ever since the advent of modern science, all this philosophy on metaphysics can be tossed in the trash. There is no conscious soul that remains in-tact after we die, and continues on without the body. Why? Because there is no such thing as god and no such things as souls, simple as that! I swear! When I’m sitting in this class, all I can think about is how Occam would have a field day!


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Yeah, so much of it is

Yeah, so much of it is studing sophism, but then there are the greats. Sartre, Nietzsche, Russell, Becker ..... I found my 2 Ethic classes more interesting.


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You have my sympathies

You have my sympathies having to listen to polarized drivel about good and evil. But there are a couple counterpoints I feel like raising.

To say that we make our own purposes in life I think gives ground to Judeo-Christian concepts of free will and the tabula rasa. I would take a more deterministic view that what we do is informed by what we believe (not ideals, but factual notions), and what we believe is due to circumstances beyond our control, and so on. In a less flattering light, you could say life is a long period of helplessly reacting to one thing or another. There is never emotional objectivity, just this constant ebb and flow of motivations. So we're not really in a position to "create" a purpose or reality, but perhaps we become motivated to frame and become aware of what it is we happen to be doing.

The second thing is, and it's really just an expansion on your suspicion of the concept of evil, is that it's more than just a misconception of certain events. We automatically think of certain things as evil because we're used to using the concept even secularly. It could comfortably be applied to murder, crimes against children or the infirm in particular, and other recognized illegal and harmful behaviors. But it's also applied by religious texts, with the same seriousness, to certain kinds of animals, to thoughts, to bodily functions. What that tells us is it's not just a bombastic concept, but an unreliable way to frame ideas practically, by categories such as whether they're harmful or not.


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Medievalguy: I agree with

Medievalguy: I agree with you, that the philosophy is not radical enough. This was exactly what I didn't like on my philosophy classes.

But how do you mean, that we create our own sense of life? So if someone considers him/herself as a total loser, or a king of the world, we should accept that person's sense of life? (and treat him/her like that)

Furthermore, there are questions, which science just doesn't ask. For example, there should be a science of a quality of human life, a science branch dedicated just to improve the human life, the style of living, aesthetics of human habitats, diminishing an exposure to stress and violence, battling an unhealthy trends in society, and so on. It would use methods of psychology, medicine, ecology, economy, and so on... And as you see, this knowledge is scientifically divided into many sciences, which prevents this hypothetic science to be studied as a whole.
It should be like a study of who we are. When we don't know who we are, we set our senses of life according to what we think we are - and this is not always beneficial, as I demonstrated above.

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Quote:all I can think about

Quote:

all I can think about is how Occam would have a field day!

William of Ockham was a Franciscan preist who believed that nothing was "necessary" except God.

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

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You might say there's a

You might say there's a Problem of Philosophy. Unfortunately, philosophy is largely useless at the academic level. You end up with a lot of pretentious students who think they have a superior grasp on 'philosophy' than the average joe, but can't make a solid conclusion to save their lives. They just argue and argue on and on, always keeping the thought in the back of their mind: Nobody really knows anything.

That's the main problem. Philosophy has been overcome by a kind of postmodernist nihilism implicit in their discussions. Argument from authority is rampant. "That may be all well and good, but wasn't it So-and-so who said 'Facts are meaningless, and I'm talking out of my ass'?" The argument never ends, because someone just brings up their pet philosopher to attack whatever position is under discussion. There is no concept of fact, evidence, etc. For that, you need to study science.

I will say that studying philosophy may still be worthwhile purely from the perspective of seeing what philosophies exist, how they were created, how they supposedly defend themselves, etc. A more or less History of Philosophy perspective. A philosophy buffet, of sorts. If nothing else, it may help you find a name for whatever philosophy you might hold but don't have a name for yet.

However, since the huge advancements of science in the past 150 years, philosophy as an acedmic subject has withered away. The Problem of Philosophy may thus be stated as: What good is it?

Personally, I do find philosophy as very useful in my personal life, but I'm a far cry from an academic philosopher. My philosophy embraces science, rather than avoiding it like the plague. I do have philosophical ideas about facts, evidence, etc. Most academic philosophers would shriek and say, "Facts?! Evidence?! These have no place in philosophy!" And therein lies the answer to the Problem of Philosophy. As long as the academics try to defend their ivory towers, the world will go along without them, and unfortunately, the world NEEDS real philosophy at this point. Without it, the public resorts to religion, superstition, conspiracy theories, pseudoscience, new ageism, etc. And that's what's tearing the world apart at the moment.

Stick with pragmatism, and it will take you far. But, essentially, you must build up your own philosophy from the scraps you find in the scrapheap of the History of Philosophy. Just weed out the bad ones by applying pragmatism: What good is this idea? You will find that most of them are crap, but there are plenty of gems in there. Dennett is a good example.

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Good and evil are just

Good and evil are just concepts. The way you hear many people describe these intangible terms one may conclude that they are cosmic forces like fate or kharma. I don't truly believe most people are good or evil and everyone has some scale of good and evil they live within. Yes, there are good and evil acts but these are determined within the context of a given society. Now sure there are actions that can also be considered evil under any point of view, but I don't believe that actions of morality are absolute.

If we look back at the ancient Incas that sacrificed their own people to satisfy the blood lust of their gods we think of it as an evidence for evil. However, in the context of their society one life to appease the gods and bring needed rain or whatever their gods promised to them it seems like a reasonable action.

I've never sat in a philosophy class such as you've described thankfully. The only classes I have had in philosophy dealt with with introduction to reason and logic (Phil 101) but I do find people that sit through advanced philosophy can develop an appreciation for deeper thinking, but that the peurpose anyways.

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i think it's pointless

i think it's pointless trying to apply occam's razor to philosophy, since occam's razor states that the theory that makes the fewest assumptions is the most likely, and all philosophy does is make assumptions.

any philosophy book that harps on nothing but good and evil seems a pretty poor philosophy book to me.  still, like it or not, we can't boil everything down to hard science.  the human mind works in abstractions, and, in my opinion, the purpose of philosophy should be to give us a common vocabulary for discussing these abstractions.  good and evil are abstractions, and often useful ones, particularly when discussing anomolies: for example, how a man like jeffrey dahmer, coming from a relatively normal household with no history of abuse, could feel sexual thrill in the ideas of pain and death and commit a series of atrocities.  no doubt there is a perfectly observable biochemical reason for this, and our repulsion at his crimes are ultimately rooted in darwinian survival instincts, but this doesn't really communicate our perception--our abstraction--of something not right, something abhorrent.  of course, neither good nor evil would exist if beings capable of abstract thought, like humans, were not around to perceive them, and it is nothing but religion when philosophers attempt, even circuitously, to give them a formal (platonically speaking), eternal, self-existent character.

what irritates me is when philosophy becomes nothing more than very obtuse religious apologetics.  many philosophers have been guilty of this, particularly kant and hegel.  still, even they served their purpose, since they formulated an epistemological framework that, when turned on its head by people like marx, led straight to materialism.

in the long run, most philosophers are spiritualists and there's really not much difference between philosophy and religion.  marx argued there was no difference at all.  that's why it annoys me when marx gets called a philosopher, even though i myself often call him that for convenience's sake--and that is part of what philosophy is: abstracting a thing from itself in order to make it understandable to an outside entity, calling a spade a shovel to communicate the idea of a spade.  marx, however, identified the problem, which was the crime of both kant and hegel: accepting the abstraction as the reality.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
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Medievalguy wrote:

Medievalguy wrote:

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Ever since the advent of modern science, all this philosophy on metaphysics can be tossed in the trash. There is no conscious soul that remains in-tact after we die, and continues on without the body. Why? Because there is no such thing as god and no such things as souls, simple as that! I swear! When I’m sitting in this class, all I can think about is how Occam would have a field day!

 

I agree with most of your points, but I think that this discipline is as important as many others fields of expertise.   Philosophy gave rise to many of the social sciences namely, sociology and  psychology, which rely upon explanations other than God.  Regardless of how archaic  the values that are espoused by it philosophy is an attempt to develop alternative ways of looking at things.  Maybe it is a bit of the academic in me, but all knowledge, even though it may be fallacious can teach us something.  Whether it is to be stronger in our convictions or how to undermine someones else's ignorance, it still serves a purpose.


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I apologize; perhaps I was a bit hasty. I think in my rush to let off steam I came across in a pretentious way. Not all philosophy is bunk, and I by no means have the answer to everything, I was just frustrated. To be honest, I think there might be hope for this class. The teacher said he went though a period when he would read one philosopher one week, and end up agreeing with him only until he read another philosopher the next week. He said that the last philosopher he ended up reading was Nietzsche…. I think this was his subtle hint that he’s an atheist…or so I can only hope.

 

As for the “we make our own meaning” thing; by that I just meant that in reality, if I died right now, it would not matter. I mean, sure, the people who love me would be upset, but after a while it would pass. I mean, if I died in a crash because of a drunk driver, my mom could join MADD or something, but that’s it. The likelihood of my death changing the world in some big way is very small. I am so small and minute compared to the size of the universe, it’s ridiculous. I know this, and it doesn’t bother me. I also know that there is no god that put me on this planet for a purpose. My life is not some big test of faith or anything of the sort, I’m just “here”. And so I give myself a meaning. Personally, I want to help people, to make the world a better place. I also want to be an archaeologist and help us to better understand our past, and what life was like for the people who lived it. Those are my meanings in life that I’ve created.


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I've always regretted how

I've always regretted how little education I got in philosophy.  I know my science and history really well, but when it comes to Kant and Wittgenstein, I can't join in the conversation.  If you can stomach the pompous little fucks who are unfortunately the waste product of any philosophy program, I'd recommend hanging with it and trying to learn something.  

 

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I actually minored in

I actually minored in Philosophy.


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magilum wrote:To say that we

magilum wrote:

To say that we make our own purposes in life I think gives ground to Judeo-Christian concepts of free will and the tabula rasa. I would take a more deterministic view that what we do is informed by what we believe (not ideals, but factual notions), and what we believe is due to circumstances beyond our control, and so on. In a less flattering light, you could say life is a long period of helplessly reacting to one thing or another. There is never emotional objectivity, just this constant ebb and flow of motivations. So we're not really in a position to "create" a purpose or reality, but perhaps we become motivated to frame and become aware of what it is we happen to be doing.

Meh. You guys are thinking too hard. The meaning of life is sex. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less. Everything else is secondary. And I'm actually not joking.

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Vastet wrote:Meh. You guys

Vastet wrote:
Meh. You guys are thinking too hard. The meaning of life is sex. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less. Everything else is secondary. And I'm actually not joking.
Sex is not the meaning of life, it is a function of life. Without it (or mitosis), there would be no life.

Life has no meaning. It just is.

So there. Sticking out tongue

"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray


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Ah, but it does have

Ah, but it does have meaning. Sex results in immortality, or at least a version of it, of the species and the individual. It is the ultimate achievement, and the ultimate meaning.

 

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Vastet wrote:Ah, but it does

Vastet wrote:
Ah, but it does have meaning. Sex results in immortality, or at least a version of it, of the species and the individual. It is the ultimate achievement, and the ultimate meaning.

 

:P

Even for the definition of "meaning" as "purpose", that doesn't work for me. "Meaning" is an artificial concept applied by humans as a result of having purpose-driven intelligence. ( That is, what we do and what we make relate to goals we have. "A hammer's purpose is to drive nails." )

There is no purpose for life. Life has no intrinsic significance, it has no intrinsic purpose, and it has no end goal.

It just is.

"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray


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Quote:Ok, so I’m in a

Quote:
Ok, so I’m in a philosophy class at college and I think the whole thing is pointless. It seems to me that most all of the problems in philosophy can be solved very easily by just accepting that there is no god, instead of doing all this lawyer-ish dancing around to try and figure out some way how something could be plausible within the frame of “there is a god”. The meaning for life for example. Philosophers for ages have been spending a great deal of time on this “question”. They assume that there must be some divine being(s) and so there must be a reason. There is no prescribed reason! You make your own reason and give meaning to your own life! Simple as that!

I think the main problem is that philosophy advanced a lot faster than the physical sciences.  If we'd known about evolution for as long as we've known about philosophical dilemmas, things might be substantially different.  It's my belief that a lot of the presuppositions inherent in many philosophical questions are as much a remnant of earlier times as the presupposition that Jesus must certainly have been a real person, regardless of his godhood.

This doesn't mean that philosophy is worthless or pointless, only that it's got a lot of baggage.

Quote:
My philosophy book spends a large portion of the pages on “the problem of evil”. Problem? What problem? “Evil” exists because people do things out of self interest, or a host of other complex reasons. The hurricane that obliterates a town is not unexplainable evil; it’s a naturally occurring weather phenomenon that happens because of a set of basic environmental conditions, many of which can be accurately predicted by science.

Right.  The traditional "problem of evil" collapses under its own definition or becomes circular.  We can certainly define evil in more relevant and precise ways, but then the problem of evil disappears.

Quote:
Ever since the advent of modern science, all this philosophy on metaphysics can be tossed in the trash. There is no conscious soul that remains in-tact after we die, and continues on without the body. Why? Because there is no such thing as god and no such things as souls, simple as that! I swear! When I’m sitting in this class, all I can think about is how Occam would have a field day!

DG pointed out the ironic twist to this.  I'll leave that as read.

Again, I'd say you are tossing the baby out with the bathwater.  Philosophy can help us, provided we start with accurate models of reality.  However, I guess I'll concede that if there's any truth to the theist's claim that atheism takes away the mystery in life, it might be somewhat true with philosophy.  When you start with rational materialism, the number of philosophical dilemmas becomes sharply reduced.

 

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JillSwift wrote:Vastet

JillSwift wrote:

Vastet wrote:
Ah, but it does have meaning. Sex results in immortality, or at least a version of it, of the species and the individual. It is the ultimate achievement, and the ultimate meaning.

 

:P

Even for the definition of "meaning" as "purpose", that doesn't work for me. "Meaning" is an artificial concept applied by humans as a result of having purpose-driven intelligence. ( That is, what we do and what we make relate to goals we have. "A hammer's purpose is to drive nails." )

There is no purpose for life. Life has no intrinsic significance, it has no intrinsic purpose, and it has no end goal.

It just is.

ah jill jill jill, so lyrically you bring to my mind the words of my favorite theist poet jazzman, van morrison, and the constant refrain in his song "summertime in england":

"it ain't why why why, it ain't why why why, it just is."

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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Medievalguy wrote:

Medievalguy wrote:

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Ok, so I’m in a philosophy class at college and I think the whole thing is pointless. It seems to me that most all of the problems in philosophy can be solved very easily by just accepting that there is no god, instead of doing all this lawyer-ish dancing around to try and figure out some way how something could be plausible within the frame of “there is a god”. The meaning for life for example. Philosophers for ages have been spending a great deal of time on this “question”. They assume that there must be some divine being(s) and so there must be a reason. There is no prescribed reason! You make your own reason and give meaning to your own life! Simple as that!

 

My philosophy book spends a large portion of the pages on “the problem of evil”. Problem? What problem? “Evil” exists because people do things out of self interest, or a host of other complex reasons. The hurricane that obliterates a town is not unexplainable evil; it’s a naturally occurring weather phenomenon that happens because of a set of basic environmental conditions, many of which can be accurately predicted by science.

 

Ever since the advent of modern science, all this philosophy on metaphysics can be tossed in the trash. There is no conscious soul that remains in-tact after we die, and continues on without the body. Why? Because there is no such thing as god and no such things as souls, simple as that! I swear! When I’m sitting in this class, all I can think about is how Occam would have a field day!

 

The problem is that deity believers respectively think that they invented law and by proxy of naked asertion because of their own human ego of not wanting to give up the alpha male position, default to law having a divine source.

The mundane reality that law is merely what we consent to frightens them because it doesn't contain magic.

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Brian37 wrote:The problem is

Brian37 wrote:

The problem is that deity believers respectively think that they invented law and by proxy of naked asertion because of their own human ego of not wanting to give up the alpha male position, default to law having a divine source.


What you describe are rather 'believers in alpha male position' or 'deity believers believers'. In other words, organized religion.
The real "believing in deity" or "something greater than us" is a phenomenon which is related to spirituality. ( very well described here) What you say, are people who gathered around the real historical deity believers, mythicized them, made a cult of what they were saying, and so on.
Furthermore, the ancient/eastern mentality, the relationship between guru and chela is "do as I say", whatever the master says, is true. This makes the problem with usurping the power even worse.
The point is, that a belief in deity is not identic with a lust for power or control, which would involve imposing a laws. One it's form, the organized religion, is infected with oligarchy and needs a radical reduction diet, but it's just a sub-division of spirituality.
 

Brian37 wrote:
The mundane reality that law is merely what we consent to frightens them because it doesn't contain magic.

Maybe. But it also seems, they think, that man-made laws are not enough to keep people in line. There must be a god's authority behind them, otherwise people won't respect them enough, so they think.
The same is for conscience. Theists asks God for forgiveness, because God is so perfect and holy, that every transgression of law must be a mortal sin against him.

Non-theists relies on their own conscience and own forgiveness. I can't understand why would God stick his nose into my problems and be offended by them, and why would I have to ask him for forgiveness. Perhaps God doesn't have anything better to do, than to be personally offended by all what his little creations do...

Some people says that God forgives everything if asked, but I rely on my own conscience and it's not gonna let me go. My conscience is quite a b!%ch and ocassionally tortures me with memories of stupid things I did as a teenager. The conscience is within, and that's much closer than some God up there in Heavens.

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JillSwift wrote:Vastet

JillSwift wrote:

Vastet wrote:
Ah, but it does have meaning. Sex results in immortality, or at least a version of it, of the species and the individual. It is the ultimate achievement, and the ultimate meaning.

 

:P

Even for the definition of "meaning" as "purpose", that doesn't work for me. "Meaning" is an artificial concept applied by humans as a result of having purpose-driven intelligence. ( That is, what we do and what we make relate to goals we have. "A hammer's purpose is to drive nails." )

Exactly! Laughing out loud

Quote:
There is no purpose for life. Life has no intrinsic significance, it has no intrinsic purpose, and it has no end goal.

It just is.

Life gives itself intrinsic purpose. Because the universe is non-sentient(at least to our knowledge), it is seperate and not a consideration when looking for a meaning. Life can only look to itself for meaning, where the meaning is to spread, which requires abundant sex. Sticking out tongue

Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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Vastet wrote:Exactly!

Vastet wrote:
Exactly! :D
*facepalms*
Vastet wrote:
Life gives itself intrinsic purpose. Because the universe is non-sentient(at least to our knowledge), it is seperate and not a consideration when looking for a meaning. Life can only look to itself for meaning, where the meaning is to spread, which requires abundant sex. :P
*headdesk*

"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray


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Luminon , I enjoyed that,

Luminon , I enjoyed that, and if I understood correctly, agree. The 4 part essay in the site you linked,  is worth a read. Basically, those that call my atheism a faith, belief, or even religion, is not a big issue with me. My religion, my creed, is "all is one", and I call it gawed, as to kill god dogma and separatism. There is no master of the universe nor cosmos.

http://atheistbible.net/

To help clarify your post, which "Chela" are you meaning?

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chela


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I AM GOD AS YOU

I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:

Luminon , I enjoyed that, and if I understood correctly, agree. The 4 part essay in the site you linked,  is worth a read. Basically, those that call my atheism a faith, belief, or even religion, is not a big issue with me. My religion, my creed, is "all is one", and I call it gawed, as to kill god dogma and separatism. There is no master of the universe nor cosmos.

http://atheistbible.net/

Is there a 4th part? I'd really like to see an update there, but so far, I see only the 3rd of promised 4 parts.
It is true, that all is one. There are countless forms and aspects, into which is the One divided, but they  maintain and increase a mutual, dynamic cooperation and unify themselves again during a development. Living in temporary limitations and separation is diffcult, but it's also the source of experiences and learning. If people would be omniscient, they couldn't learn to play cards, could they? Smiling
It might be interesting for you, that not many people sees that. Only very little advanced, and very much advanced people sees the world as one, but the rest of aspirants gives more attention to the duality of good and evil. Every once a while they walk in sunshine, life's great, and then comes so-called dark night of the soul, and they're desperate and without enthusiasm. These cycles are typical for them, while the awareness of unity calms down the life cycles.
There are cycles in everything, from planetary rotation, to a human life and psychology. Who is anchored in this awareness of unity, maintains an inner balance no matter what is happening, while others are dragged back and forth by the cycles.

I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:

To help clarify your post, which "Chela" are you meaning?

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chela

It seems to be a "disciple of an eastern spiritual teacher" in a figurative meaning. To be a servant of the guru often is a part of this job. In western spirituality, this kind of servitude is unacceptable, there are no rules, just recommendations, in hope to train future independent masters, rather than disciples. Western problem is exactly opposite than this eastern submission.

 

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.