not so sure i agree with you Jill. seeing someone call a spade a spade doesn't make me think they have less cred at all. like i said, i see RSS do it all the time and it hasn't effected me. i still think they are spot on!

The reason i jumped on doomed soul so quick was it was obvious by his statements he had done no research or did not understand the concept. And it was also obvious he didn't want to understand, he just wanted to argue and win without knowing what he was arguing about. to me, it just doesn't get much dumber than that.

Also Darth chimed in a bit of dissent and i didn't jump on him because he was being reasonable. 

the support for my assertions was given in the form of a lecture by a science professor and a video by an economist. all the information is there... you just have to read and watch, listen...

Also The_doomed _soul already annoyed me when he was arguing for Satanism in another thread. I have a low tolorence for hocus pocus.

P.S I am VERY proud to have my arguments rooted in Science and reputable thinkers. these are not MY ideas they are beyond what i could have come up with given the path i choose in life (a musician) but i can understand them and i would much rather they speak than i. because they are so good at it.

I was unaware that people could INC political and philisophical ideology, i should look into this and see if i cant INC my own o_O

And mine is the exact opposite, i DO care about the obfuscation of Technocracy, and that was the point of my post... You can now understand my point of view ^_^ its the exact opposite YAY! progress

Nuh huh! you accept mine! or dont... ya chicken or something? i double doggy dare ya... no no, i triple double doggy dare ya!... no wait, i quadruple triple double doggy dare ya to infinitey +1 and Colonel Sanders to accept my debate.

Besides, mines relevant to this entire topic

i think my last post cleared this up. I dont think everyone is wrong. since when did doomed become everyone?  So you are telling me what i think based on this thread? and you can read my mind and i think everyone is wrong...  maybe you should retract your dickish remarks... 

I'd steer clear of letting an argument from another thread affect all of your other arguments.

For the record, it was both of you.

Why isn't this forum adequate enough for a debate format?

I was writing my post before your reply to Jill was there, and as I read it I did think it was more calm.

And I'll readily admit, I have no rational basis to think that you are convinced everyone else is wrong, so sure I'll retract that.

But firstly, I qualified my post by writing it was an ad hom, not a logical argument.

And secondly, I still think you are a being selfrightious. You can be selfrightious and right, but it's still obnoxious.

And I base this on all the threads I've read where you have contributed. Not just this one.

I'm objecting to your behavior, and your general un-likebility as a human being, not to your opinions on Technocracy, because as I said, I don't have much of an opinion on that.

And I'm doing it, because I genually hope it will give you pause. I don't expect you to admit it, and appologize or anything, because I myself am way too proud to do that, if the roles were reversed, so I wouldn't demand that of you, but maybe you'll think about it still, and that might make you a little more friendly in future.

So, I'll leave it be... Peace

You don't call a spade a spade. You just insult us as a child would. And your posts are riddled with condescension. Or maybe I am just too stupid and lack a logical mind.

Are they rooted in science? Or Technocracy Inc lies and claims it is rooted in science when it isn't. I vote the latter. Just because we can assign value to goods based of off the energy required to produce them, that does not mean that our current economic system must fail or that energy counting is any less arbitrary than any other form of currency.

If you want to know why everyone seems to be turning against you perhaps this montage of quotes will shed some light on the matter:

Every one is filled with condescension or outright insults. I hope you realize that these quotes will make people automatically disagree with you. I know that there was a mod warning on this thread, but I hope it stays open and I hope you continue with the childish insults and condescension. The more you do it, the more wrong you will seem in the eyes of others. Prove me wrong on this, stop the insults and have a civil debate. Or is saying "gad damn you are fucking stupid" just calling a spade a spade and nothing else?

Oh, Mohammed, i found that button to ignore me, that you were looking for a while back

Ignore_Doomy

Ok, it works now, used it on myself... definetly worked

Oh, Mohammed, i found that button to ignore me, that you were looking for a while back

Ignore_Doomy

Ok, it works now, used it on myself... definetly worked

What? Ask and ye shall recieve

...but no one is saying technocracy is Sci-Fi, only that its concept has been imbedded in sci-fi... in comparision, SPACE NAZI'S AND SPACE COMMUNISTS are Sci-Fi... just as SPACE TECHNOCRATS are Sci-Fi... i think its the correlation between space and ideology but then again, im just the retard... so im sure you already understood that

Quick Excuse: That was just a test to see if you pressed the ignore button, sadly... it appears you did not

 nope didnt press it... i was bullshiting about the ignore... i didnt think there really was one.

I concur.

Based upon other knowledge of Tolman, I'd love to read his feasibility study on this matter though. If anyone asks whom I think tackles the hard questions or 'thinks outside of the box' then that is one of my choices.

So, I'm not looking to appeal to authority one way or another. Sometimes we do have to have a sounding board for continued study.

My only post #7 was a nod to the serious need to change the present ailing system, and after reading an hr of this tech stuff, I am somewhat encouraged, as it is a serious call for real revolution, along the lines of "eat the rich", but this seems nearly impossible to rally the apathetic uneducated required public support, in a near future if ever. ??? 

The rich class would fight this tooth and nail. Heck, this a call for class warfare! Isn't it?

This is something perhaps Hamby could help us sort thru ... seems up his allay of interest and study. Dumb me needs help putting this in better perpective. 

Thanks for posting it  mohammad. The system needs fixing.    

Bad prophet! No cookie! Bad!

no problem man i think you are correct in your intial reaction. this was fought very hard in the begining. caught hold at the great depression and then fizzled because of the war.

Well, you'll probably shit when I mention that Tolman was one of Einstein's opponents on a few things. lol.

As far as scientists opining on social matters, we have to remember that they are just as much of a slave to the system as we are.

I don't have to have ROI calculated in order to get my paycheck and for the most part, no one vetoes funding bills for me like they do scientists.

I can understand why scientists would prefer a government operated on statistical projections of efficiency rather than our present one. We are wasteful.

I'd like to see more of a democratic input into the idea of technocracy because it's the people producing the energy, maintaining the infrastructure, and ultimately in charge of the usage. Scientists as public servants sounds really good though. lol.

I know they list the whole of North America as the ideal setting.

In your opinion, what would be the minimum size of an experiment to test the precepts?

Their Energy Accounting is utter bullshit.

From their own page: Energy Accounting

*Energy Credits are non-transferable. This means that they cannot be stolen, gambled, or otherwise lost. They also cannot be used to provide anyone with a "controlling interest" in societal mechanisms, which is commonly known as "bribing". This also eliminates the possibilty for profit motive, and thus ensures that all products and services are of the highest quality, with the lowest cost in resources.

Bullshit; Buy a product with your energy, give it to someone else, they sell the product for energy, boom. Energy has been transferred. Even if you can't sell anything ever again after you've bought it, true wealth is not the accumulation of money, money is only as good as what you can buy.<*1> If people are issued 'Energy Credits' then they obviously have a limitted supply of them. This means someone could buy something, and give it to someone else as a gift, or as a bribe. All this does is create a barter economy and force the people to get creative.

*Energy Credits are not based on scarcity<*>. They are instead a measure of the actual, physical wealth of a nation in terms of resources and energy. Therefor a nation that employs these credits is literally as rich as its natural and technological resources.

Bullshit; Unless you give everyone an infinite amount they are limitted and therefore scarce. Every resource is scarce, if it doesn't appear scarce then there just aren't enough people trying to use it (SEE: Air) or it will be bought up and made scarce through artificial means (SEE: Diamonds). Furthermore, how are people 'issued' energy credits? Are they arbitrarily assigned based on the work those people do? Won't that just lead to the people who do more work getting more energy to throw around on 'gifts'? If everyone receives a flat ration of energy credits how is that not Communism. And frankly, if everyone does receive a flat ration no matter what level of work they do then you can take this idea and shove it because I refuse to live in a world where people aren't tangibly rewarded for their efferts should they so desire such a reward. Furthermore if they do receive a flat ration then how does it not encourage doing the bare minimum work since no matter what you do you can't get any more money?

*Energy Credits are not based on "Value," but rather on physical measurements of energy. Thus, the energy "cost" of any item (such as a chair or tire) would be exactly equal to the amount of energy it took to produce this item. These costs would obviously never change, excepting where more energy-efficient means are found to produce said item, in which case the "cost" would only go down with no other economic side-effects.

Bullshit; What about the cost to transport the items, the cost of resources, the cost of setting up the factory, the cost of paying the laborers (or does everyone work for free, because that's not slavery) are all of these factored in? Funny, same thing happens with money. If someone is willing to do the work for less energy credits then what? If someone is willing to sell a product for less energy credits then what? Ar their freedoms arbitrarily restricted? Again, if so then you can take this idea and shove it. Freedom is more important than Security.

Furthermore, the cost would only go down? What about as materials become more scarce? There will always be problems with limitted resources for the simple fact that the Universe is finite and human population is growing. How does your system account for the growth of mankind?

1: Sidepoint. How is literally telling people that saving money and using it responsibly and not going on a huge spending craze is a bad thing a good thing? Essentially, this system of 'money that expires' would tell everyone they should provide for their survival first, and then just buy whatever they want whenever they want because the money's not going to be there forever. Its like the minute limits on cell phones before roll-over.

The economic theory so far looks like its riddled with holes, but I'm guessing you'll just tell me I don't understand it. If that's the case, then explain it to me. You came here and started making your claims, so you explain them, don't come here and start pushing an economic theory and then demand that we go out and research it because you can't explain it.

As for your repeated claim that Energy Credits are different than Money;

Energy;
^Value is Static (not really, you yourself said that the value would change based on how difficult it was to produce energy. How do you measure that?)
^Expires (Not really, see below)
^Representative of a Product or Service and alone is utterly useless unless you give us a way of using the energy to power things, but since I doubt you expect people to carry around batteries I'm sure the actual energy is stored somewhere else and you just carry a representation of it in a credit card type thing.

Money;
^Value is static if no new money is printed. We tried this once, it didn't work so well. Its generally accepted that a small amount of inflation is better than no growth, again, because the human population is growing.
^Expiration would do what exactly? (See below, furthermore, I'm against any system which says people aren't allowed to enjoy what they earn)
^Representative of a Product or Service and alone is utterly uselss for anything other than toilet paper or use as a coaster.

Do you honestly think that just by making the currency, in whatever form it exists be it printed bills or energy, expire will prevent hoarding? Please don't be a fool. Here's a simple way around it;

The Day before your energy expires, go out and buy a bunch of stuff.
The Day after your energy expires, go out and sell a bunch of stuff.

Bang, most of your energy is back in your pocket. Continue to hoard. Unless you intend on making all commodities expire too (however the hell that would work). Or unless you intend on making it impossible for anyone to sell a product back, in which case again, the real value of any form of currency is not how much of it you have, but how much stuff you can buy with it. Doesn't anyone remember the story of the guy who buried the massive gold nugget in his backyard?

And please explain to me how giving up all freedom is a good thing? I've never understood this.

WRONG!

There would be no need to trade since there is more than enough to go around. You can't sell to other people there is no selling.  im not going to even go through the rest because you are so wrong. its even in the text you posted that energy credits can not be transfered!  it's like reading someone arguing that math is bullshit. no im not going to hold your hand and explain it to you, you have links to the information which is spelled out much better than i can. go to Technocracy.ca and join their forum.

P.S this thread wasnt started for me to argue for Technocracy, it was started to bring it to other peoples attention that might be interested. I would love a system LIKE technocracy inc's or the venus projects resource economics but im not going to argue it. it took me a YEAR to explain it to one of my friends and they finally got it so im not even going to attempt it on a forum!

Please, if I'm ever trying to get folks interested in some pet idea of mine don't argue for my side, ok?

Basically; pick one or the other, the combination doesn't work. Your statement that you are not in any way obliged to argue for it is utterly true - so you can easily just ignore the comments, or just suggest they read the site more completely if you feel obliged to answer.

Jill, i quit the name calling so that card is out of play. and i think i can make a short point and make a half hearted argument when i feel its ok.
There just aren't any rules i have to follow here, im not going to argue anymore about it other than the occasional point.
It stresses me out and i do not like arguing. like i said if they want a debate they can debate people that are good at debating for Technocracy.

I am a horrible debater. period. I get frustrated far to easy. so just as i can decide not to respond to comments they can choose not to attempt to debate me now that they know my position on debating. In the future if i post anything else like this i will be sure to post the disclaimer. but i do reserve the right to make a few points etc..

Also when someone like doom or the other guy is a jerk and abrasive i will just ignore them completely.

I so fucking called it

 here is the first thing doom said... without me saying anything to him...

he was rude as hell right of the bat... your not on the high ground doom...