the best xtian/creationist defenses?

FreeThinker2012
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the best xtian/creationist defenses?

I know most of the common defenses/arguments, such as the ontological, teleological, cosmological, Kuzari, modal, moral, 5 ways (Aquinus), "why is there something rather than nothing" etc. are supposedly 'good' defenses for Christians, but a lot of dudes at www.infidels.org or TalkOrigins.org can usually poke some very persuasive holes in those old Christian defenses. They, to me have more convincing arguments than the xians.
But, the other day my mom asked me a question that SEEMS like a fairly good defense that I've never heard before, & that is: "why did no one who lived during the writings of both the OT & NT never refute them or dismiss the stories/miracles as mere myths?" - I have to admit, that stumped me for a while, but now I have a theory; my theory is that the 'heretics' would of been tortured or killed for speaking out against the 'validity' of the bible. Does anyone else have any similar takes or different takes on this one?


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A simple question can be

A simple question can be simply answered. I was all set to do so, and had in fact done so, when I noticed you had already done so. As I don't like to type for nothing, it's included anyway.

 

How does your mom know that, in fact, records of the time were not altered? There could very well have been a war that lasted 50 years over the topic, but the winners never bothered to write it down so that the losers could be erased from history.

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I never thought of that one.

I never thought of that one. If the topic ever comes up in discussion w/ her, I'll have to bring that up. Thanks for the input.

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Quote:But, the other day my

Quote:
But, the other day my mom asked me a question that SEEMS like a fairly good defense that I've never heard before, & that is: "why did no one who lived during the writings of both the OT & NT never refute them or dismiss the stories/miracles as mere myths?" - I have to admit, that stumped me for a while, but now I have a theory; my theory is that the 'heretics' would of been tortured or killed for speaking out against the 'validity' of the bible. Does anyone else have any similar takes or different takes on this one?

There's a simpler explanation.  The OT and NT weren't assembled as a unified holy book until several hundred years after the last of the books were written.  The glorified accounts of Jewish conquests probably didn't get too far out of the hands of Jews before that.  Why would someone from another region get their panties in a twist over some po-dunk writer's version of history anyway?  Every kingdom had its own gods and godesses.  The Jews weren't particularly unique in that regard.

Furthermore, Christianity wasn't really Christianity until Constantine made it so.  It was more properly described as numerous cults that had a basic resemblance to one another.  When Constantine made Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire, it was literally the first time we can point to an exact place and time and say, "That's Christianity."  So, again, we can ask, why would anybody bother refuting a non-religion?

While we're on the subject, how many contemporary rebuttals have you read from any other culture?  Do you recall any major figures in Greek history publishing scathing critiques of Greek myths?  Christianity is not alone in the absence of dissent.

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From what I understand, in

From what I understand, in the ancient world cultures didn't even refute each other's gods - they figured either they were real too or they were just that cultures name for the same god they believed in if close enough (like Mars/Ares or Jupiter/Zeus. )

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MattShizzle wrote:From what

I think Matt is right, because, aside from the Greek/Roman gods, we have the Egyptian/Greek Gods, like  Hermes/Thoth (or is it Thot?), Zeus Ammon, and others.


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According to B.R. Rees in

According to B.R. Rees in his 1950 seminal text "Popular religion in Graeco-Roman Egypt II. The transition to Christianity" the christian faith ran into huge obstacles in Egypt, at that time considered an intellectual hub of the Roman empire. Greek speaking scholars were amongst the first to point out the objectionably cannibalistic implications and the immature appeal to an awe of magic which characterised the rude theology that then surrounded the early texts in ciculation, including those that now constitute what they call the "new testament". Refutation, at least in intellectual terms, couldn't have come more promptly or more eruditely in the context of the times and the way the sect was spreading its influence.

 

There are two ironies involved in this episode however. It is generally accepted that the first attempts at christians developing an apologetic theology - one that could be used to justify their faith's tenets to a non-christian and often hostile audience - were honed in response to this refutation. The other irony is that the best arguments they could come up with locally were later outlawed as a heresy by their colleagues closer to the heart of power and whose new membership within that powerful elite meant that they no longer had to defend their religion from intellectual opposition, simply eliminate the intellectuals - even some of their own.

 

So at least in terms of the "new testamant" your mother is wrong. There were very vocal refutations. They came to nought, not because they were weaker arguments, but because they were erased by their opposition once that opposition had the power through sponsorship of the emperor to enforce it.

 

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I agree with the replies

I agree with the replies here, and tend to to think the jews were a pretty radical authoritarian restrictive culture. Is it true that school for the young was devoted to memorizing the torah and religious laws for example?

And hey freethinker, I bet you and your folks could get a lot out of reading together any of those 3 books recently spotlighted at infidels .... and of course many others. My folks were book a holics and read to all us family their favorite finds. Science and philosophy and nature mostly.

Three book reviews and some comments to read:
http://secweb.infidels.org/?kiosk=books&id=1001
http://secweb.infidels.org/?kiosk=articles&id=789
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/edward_tabash/totality.html

 .... Might they even read or listen to these book reviews, as you read???

  Moms and Dads need teaching too .....    I want what the kids want, me gramps!
 

 


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My parents REFUSE to hear

My parents REFUSE to hear what the 'other side of the fence' has to say about anything - they're very closed-minded about it. They only read things w/ a Christian bias to it - for example, we're reading "Letters from a Skeptic" by Gregory & Edward Boyd. The father (the skeptic) has some good questions, but CERTAINLY not all of the appropriate questions were asked. The father (at the end) got converted; but this is a very biased book that doesn't really challenge the 'doubting Thomas'' out there. I'd love to show them Infidels, TalkOrigins, EvilBible, SkepticsAnnotatedBible, GodIsImaginary etc. to them, but they're just too damn stuborn/closed-minded. My theory: 1) they're deathly afraid that the 'other side of the fence' offers some very compelling arguments & they probably feel threatened by it. 2) They're afraid it will jeopardize their faith. 3) they have many xtian friends. So, I'm kind between a rock & a hard place on this one.


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 Anon if you are successful

 Anon if you are successful it will be because you have talked to them for a very long time about it. It takes a lot of logical reasoning to "break the spell" but if your parents are fundamentalist it might never be possible. ask them if they are even open to the possibility that they are wrong. if they are not open to that ask if they think that all the other religions in the world are wrong is well, because no 2 could be true.


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This is me

This is me (FreeThinker2012). I forgot to sign in - that's why it shows up as "Anonomous / Not Verified". Just an FYI.

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Nordmann wrote:According to

Nordmann wrote:

According to B.R. Rees in his 1950 seminal text "Popular religion in Graeco-Roman Egypt II. The transition to Christianity" the christian faith ran into huge obstacles in Egypt, at that time considered an intellectual hub of the Roman empire. Greek speaking scholars were amongst the first to point out the objectionably cannibalistic implications and the immature appeal to an awe of magic which characterised the rude theology that then surrounded the early texts in ciculation, including those that now constitute what they call the "new testament". Refutation, at least in intellectual terms, couldn't have come more promptly or more eruditely in the context of the times and the way the sect was spreading its influence.

 

There are two ironies involved in this episode however. It is generally accepted that the first attempts at christians developing an apologetic theology - one that could be used to justify their faith's tenets to a non-christian and often hostile audience - were honed in response to this refutation. The other irony is that the best arguments they could come up with locally were later outlawed as a heresy by their colleagues closer to the heart of power and whose new membership within that powerful elite meant that they no longer had to defend their religion from intellectual opposition, simply eliminate the intellectuals - even some of their own.

 

So at least in terms of the "new testamant" your mother is wrong. There were very vocal refutations. They came to nought, not because they were weaker arguments, but because they were erased by their opposition once that opposition had the power through sponsorship of the emperor to enforce it.

 

Peace and goodwill to all men? You must be fucking joking!

I always love to learn something new. Smiling

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FreeThinker2012
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"Anonymous" is me

"Anonymous" is me (FreeThinker2012). That day, I forgot to sign in, which is why it says "Anonymous / Not Verified". My bad.

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FreeThinker2012
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Wow, quite impressive, if I

Wow, quite impressive, if I do say so myself. Thanks for the info. I will do my best to impart that to my family, should the need arise.

Jesus didn't ride a donkey don't ya know, he rode an Apotasaurus!
www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/431306643/