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It works for me!

Posted on: September 7, 2008 - 5:51pm

Fonzie

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It works for me!

Faith in Jesus works for me - it's exciting. I love the Bible and believe all of it - though there is mystery. There is mystery everywhere though, right? I am a incredibly happy believer in Jesus. I'm not a theologian, I just believe in Jesus.

I understand you can't make anybody believe in Jesus and the Bible, and I don't personally try to do that. But I highly recommend it from my experience with it. I can't get enough of the Bible or Jesus. I can't imagine trying to navigate through life without it at this point in my life.

I don't think Jesus or God is a thing you can prove to somebody. I heard about it a large percentage of my life and it didn't mean anything to me until a certain point - then that all changed.

So do you guys think that I'm fooling myself, not really happy, you don't believe me, or do you really think I can't be as happy or enlightened as you - are you evangelistic in that sense or what? What is the purpose of this site? Do you have something better to offer? If so, what is your gospel?

Posted on: June 10, 2009 - 7:52am #301

Anonymouse

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Fonzie wrote:Anonymouse

Fonzie wrote:

Anonymouse wrote:
Fonzie wrote:
If God put me in the position of being a policeman or soldier and somebody needed to be shot I would have no problem shooting them.
The "higher authorities" are placed there by God (Romans in 13th). I have not been placed in either of those positions of action. The government is one of God's means of managing the world He created.

I think you may be inadvertently avoiding the question here. Killing people is part of the job when you're a policeman or a soldier, wether or not you believe god is telling you to pull the trigger.
Maybe he was asking you something more along the lines of : Would you be willing to kill an innocent child if you believed your god asked you to ?

Anonymouse,

I find nothing in today's gospel concerning killing innocent (or the guilty) other than the prosecuting arm of "governing authorities", executing justice as mentioned.

So trying to imagine what you're asking and I'm inadvertently avoiding - maybe Abraham being ready to offer up Isaac as instructed? Scriptures say "God tested Abraham", and God told him to go offer up his son that he loved, Isaac, on a mountain God would show him.

Understand that was a different age. Abraham had direct divine verbal instructions about this. Abraham was being used to illustrate the faith God wants: faith in God and His Word and Promises not based on "feelings". Abraham was willing to follow instructions and sacrifice the son of promise he had waited for so long - believing God could raise Isaac from the dead, so through faith he in effect received Isaac back from the dead.

When Abraham and Isaac walked away from that mountain knowing they had both willingly obeyed God - they passed the test and Abraham became the model of our faith. But we don't have those instructions. We are to put to death our fleshly side and walk by the Spirit through faith like Abraham's.

Or were you thinking of the boy stoned when Israel was in the wilderness for blaspheming the Name of God? That again was direct verbal instruction to Moses from God to stone him.

In these last days God has spoken to us through His Son (Hebrews 1). Through faith we are a witness because faith makes it real as real can be. But Jesus said nothing about us killing innocent or guilty. He did say that if you hate your brother you are a murderer. It's one thing to say one is a believer but another thing to actually be a believer in God and Christ.

So your answer is, "yes, if it was a direct verbal instruction from God to me, I would kill an innocent child" ?

Posted on: June 10, 2009 - 9:10am #302

jcgadfly

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Fonzie wrote:ProzacDeathWish

Fonzie wrote:

ProzacDeathWish wrote:
Fonzie were you raised in a culture where Christianity was the major religious influence ?

ProzacDeathWish,

US is said to be a Christian culture - pretty loose term use. There's a lot of fake empty fluff to be sorted through - which makes it harder to find the substance if you ask me. And you have to come to terms with why the fake is fake.

and why is the fake stuff fake? Because it's not rooted in the "real" fake stuff you believe in?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin

Posted on: June 10, 2009 - 10:13am #303

The Flying Spag...

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Yeah, what's not to like

Yeah, what's not to like about the bible? Stoning women and children is a regular, after-hour hobby for me, personally.

Posted on: June 10, 2009 - 4:39pm #304

butterbattle

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Fonzie

Fonzie wrote:

butterbattle,
They fell for lies, they were had, they don't actually "want" what they are deceived into thinking they want.
They view the LORD and His Anointed as "bonds" and "cords" - and the breaking free of them as "freedom". Satan is a master deceiver. So they are deceived until the end - unless they cry out to God and Jesus Who Both want to rescue them. But for that to happen some light has to break through the deception.

Ah, so nobody actually wants to go to hell. They were deceived, correct?

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare

Posted on: June 14, 2009 - 8:10pm #305

Fonzie

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Anonymouse wrote:Fonzie

Anonymouse wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
Anonymouse wrote:
Fonzie wrote:
If God put me in the position of being a policeman or soldier and somebody needed to be shot I would have no problem shooting them.
The "higher authorities" are placed there by God (Romans in 13th). I have not been placed in either of those positions of action. The government is one of God's means of managing the world He created.

I think you may be inadvertently avoiding the question here. Killing people is part of the job when you're a policeman or a soldier, wether or not you believe god is telling you to pull the trigger.
Maybe he was asking you something more along the lines of : Would you be willing to kill an innocent child if you believed your god asked you to ?

Anonymouse,

I find nothing in today's gospel concerning killing innocent (or the guilty) other than the prosecuting arm of "governing authorities", executing justice as mentioned.

So trying to imagine what you're asking and I'm inadvertently avoiding - maybe Abraham being ready to offer up Isaac as instructed? Scriptures say "God tested Abraham", and God told him to go offer up his son that he loved, Isaac, on a mountain God would show him.

Understand that was a different age. Abraham had direct divine verbal instructions about this. Abraham was being used to illustrate the faith God wants: faith in God and His Word and Promises not based on "feelings". Abraham was willing to follow instructions and sacrifice the son of promise he had waited for so long - believing God could raise Isaac from the dead, so through faith he in effect received Isaac back from the dead.

When Abraham and Isaac walked away from that mountain knowing they had both willingly obeyed God - they passed the test and Abraham became the model of our faith. But we don't have those instructions. We are to put to death our fleshly side and walk by the Spirit through faith like Abraham's.

Or were you thinking of the boy stoned when Israel was in the wilderness for blaspheming the Name of God? That again was direct verbal instruction to Moses from God to stone him.

In these last days God has spoken to us through His Son (Hebrews 1). Through faith we are a witness because faith makes it real as real can be. But Jesus said nothing about us killing innocent or guilty. He did say that if you hate your brother you are a murderer. It's one thing to say one is a believer but another thing to actually be a believer in God and Christ.

So your answer is, "yes, if it was a direct verbal instruction from God to me, I would kill an innocent child" ?

So is your question, "I either didn't read or think about your answer but I do want this pull quote for my mischaracterization so would you please check the box in front of this statement?"

Posted on: June 14, 2009 - 8:34pm #306

Fonzie

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jcgadfly wrote:Fonzie

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
ProzacDeathWish wrote:
Fonzie were you raised in a culture where Christianity was the major religious influence ?

ProzacDeathWish,

US is said to be a Christian culture - pretty loose term use. There's a lot of fake empty fluff to be sorted through - which makes it harder to find the substance if you ask me. And you have to come to terms with why the fake is fake.

and why is the fake stuff fake? Because it's not rooted in the "real" fake stuff you believe in?

No, fake is fake and real is real regardless of my belief or yours. We each get to chose though. I've made my choice and I'm recommending Jesus to you.

Posted on: June 14, 2009 - 8:35pm #307

Fonzie

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The Flying Spaghetti Monster

The Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote:

Yeah, what's not to like about the bible? Stoning women and children is a regular, after-hour hobby for me, personally.

I love it all - every book, chapter and verse. It's all true.

Posted on: June 14, 2009 - 8:37pm #308

Fonzie

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butterbattle wrote:Fonzie

butterbattle wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
butterbattle,
They fell for lies, they were had, they don't actually "want" what they are deceived into thinking they want.
They view the LORD and His Anointed as "bonds" and "cords" - and the breaking free of them as "freedom". Satan is a master deceiver. So they are deceived until the end - unless they cry out to God and Jesus Who Both want to rescue them. But for that to happen some light has to break through the deception.
Ah, so nobody actually wants to go to hell. They were deceived, correct?

Ah, friend, so you read my answer. And are you deceived?

Posted on: June 14, 2009 - 9:14pm #309

Anonymouse

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Fonzie wrote:Anonymouse

Fonzie wrote:

Anonymouse wrote:
Fonzie wrote:
Anonymouse wrote:
Fonzie wrote:
If God put me in the position of being a policeman or soldier and somebody needed to be shot I would have no problem shooting them.
The "higher authorities" are placed there by God (Romans in 13th). I have not been placed in either of those positions of action. The government is one of God's means of managing the world He created.

I think you may be inadvertently avoiding the question here. Killing people is part of the job when you're a policeman or a soldier, wether or not you believe god is telling you to pull the trigger.
Maybe he was asking you something more along the lines of : Would you be willing to kill an innocent child if you believed your god asked you to ?

Anonymouse,

I find nothing in today's gospel concerning killing innocent (or the guilty) other than the prosecuting arm of "governing authorities", executing justice as mentioned.

So trying to imagine what you're asking and I'm inadvertently avoiding - maybe Abraham being ready to offer up Isaac as instructed? Scriptures say "God tested Abraham", and God told him to go offer up his son that he loved, Isaac, on a mountain God would show him.

Understand that was a different age. Abraham had direct divine verbal instructions about this. Abraham was being used to illustrate the faith God wants: faith in God and His Word and Promises not based on "feelings". Abraham was willing to follow instructions and sacrifice the son of promise he had waited for so long - believing God could raise Isaac from the dead, so through faith he in effect received Isaac back from the dead.

When Abraham and Isaac walked away from that mountain knowing they had both willingly obeyed God - they passed the test and Abraham became the model of our faith. But we don't have those instructions. We are to put to death our fleshly side and walk by the Spirit through faith like Abraham's.

Or were you thinking of the boy stoned when Israel was in the wilderness for blaspheming the Name of God? That again was direct verbal instruction to Moses from God to stone him.

In these last days God has spoken to us through His Son (Hebrews 1). Through faith we are a witness because faith makes it real as real can be. But Jesus said nothing about us killing innocent or guilty. He did say that if you hate your brother you are a murderer. It's one thing to say one is a believer but another thing to actually be a believer in God and Christ.

So your answer is, "yes, if it was a direct verbal instruction from God to me, I would kill an innocent child" ?

So is your question, "I either didn't read or think about your answer but I do want this pull quote for my mischaracterization so would you please check the box in front of this statement?"

If I wanted to make assumptions about your character, I wouldn't bother asking you a question.

I did read your rather lengthy answer to a simple yes or no question. You seemed to be suggesting that "in a different age", when receiving "direct verbal instruction from God", a believer would kill an innocent child.

The question was if you would do the same, in this day and age, if you received a direct verbal instruction from god to do so.

If you do not wish to answer this question, simply say so, and I won't bother you again.

Posted on: June 15, 2009 - 1:13am #310

butterbattle

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Fonzie wrote:Ah, friend, so

Fonzie wrote:

Ah, friend, so you read my answer. And are you deceived?

Well, that's the problem. I have no idea. If I am being deceived, it obviously follows that I don't know that I'm being deceived. If I knew I was being deceived, then I wouldn't be deceived. How do I solve this problem?

That said, I don't think it's fair that God allows us to be deceived, then lets us to go to hell because of it.

Posted on: June 15, 2009 - 6:15am #311

marshalltenbears

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That is great if it works

That is great if it works for you. The problem with christians and the whole "it works for me" is that you want to make it work for everyone by force. I was indoctrinated as a child and forced to believe in it my whole life. If it works for you then fine, but keep it out of public schools and government, and especially our foreign policy.

"Take all the heads of the people
and hang them up before the Lord
against the sun.” -- Numbers 25:4

Posted on: June 15, 2009 - 6:34pm #312

jcgadfly

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Fonzie wrote:The Flying

Fonzie wrote:

The Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote:
Yeah, what's not to like about the bible? Stoning women and children is a regular, after-hour hobby for me, personally.

I love it all - every book, chapter and verse. It's all true.

Except for the demonstrably false parts...

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin

Posted on: June 16, 2009 - 1:02am #313

Di66en6ion

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Fonzie wrote:The Flying

Fonzie wrote:

The Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote:
Yeah, what's not to like about the bible? Stoning women and children is a regular, after-hour hobby for me, personally.

I love it all - every book, chapter and verse. It's all true.

Fonzie wrote:

Di66i6ion wrote:

Also you didn't answer my other question. What is your reason for not living if god does not exist?
I glanced at that and thought it was what you guys call your "signature".
I can't unravel your rhetoric on this - it seems like kind of a verbal puzzle, false dilemma or double negative. Maybe you can overlay your impression of what would be my answer to it from my position so I can see what you mean.
God is as real to me as anything. Actually more.

A. Lost cause

B. Poe

Posted on: June 16, 2009 - 2:58am #314

crazymonkie

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He's been around longer than

He's been around longer than Poe's law. Hence (A).

Also: "EVERY chapter and verse?" Wasn't there something about abrogation of the 'old' Law?

I certainly don't recall anyone saying that shellfish, work on Saturdays, blended clothing, menstruating women or pork products are abominations in Christian sects. None of them.

And of course there's the...um... uneasy relation between Christianity and slavery. Yes, it did happen in the OT; yes, it was tacitly, if not actively, accepted by Christians and allowed to stand in the NT (remember- we're supposed to be SLAVES to Christ, not servants). So, okay- does this mean you're still cool with slavery? If so, this makes you an excellent moral absolutist and a follower of the law of god. If not, you're in relativist territory. Welcome. Pull up a chair. We have bacon, cotton/poly blend pants and bars open ALLLL Saturday. Enjoy the progress that your co-religionists tried to block, and act like you've still got the upper hand morally, by all means. I'll not stop you, though I will point out that you're very, very mistaken.

OrdinaryClay wrote:

If you don't believe your non-belief then you don't believe and you must not be an atheist.

Posted on: June 16, 2009 - 9:38am #315

jcgadfly

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crazymonkie wrote:He's been

crazymonkie wrote:

He's been around longer than Poe's law. Hence (A).
Also: "EVERY chapter and verse?" Wasn't there something about abrogation of the 'old' Law?
I certainly don't recall anyone saying that shellfish, work on Saturdays, blended clothing, menstruating women or pork products are abominations in Christian sects. None of them.
And of course there's the...um... uneasy relation between Christianity and slavery. Yes, it did happen in the OT; yes, it was tacitly, if not actively, accepted by Christians and allowed to stand in the NT (remember- we're supposed to be SLAVES to Christ, not servants). So, okay- does this mean you're still cool with slavery? If so, this makes you an excellent moral absolutist and a follower of the law of god. If not, you're in relativist territory. Welcome. Pull up a chair. We have bacon, cotton/poly blend pants and bars open ALLLL Saturday. Enjoy the progress that your co-religionists tried to block, and act like you've still got the upper hand morally, by all means. I'll not stop you, though I will point out that you're very, very mistaken.

There are more than a few Christians who believe that God offering himself to himself on the cross abrogates the 10 Commandments as well

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin

Posted on: June 16, 2009 - 1:34pm #316

crazymonkie

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Huh. Didn't know that. Are

Huh. Didn't know that. Are those liberal Christians?

Posted on: June 16, 2009 - 1:43pm #317

jcgadfly

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crazymonkie wrote:Huh.

crazymonkie wrote:

Huh. Didn't know that. Are those liberal Christians?

Mostly folks who believe that the parts of the Bible they should take seriously starts with Acts 2 and ends with Revelation (with special emphasis on the Pauline epistles).

I don't differentiate between liberal and fundamentalist loony so I can't answer your question as you'd like.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin

Posted on: June 16, 2009 - 1:53pm #318

crazymonkie

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Yeah, sometimes those lines

Yeah, sometimes those lines are rather blurry. Considering that pretty much none of them are willing to stand with non-believers on issues against other Christians, and that there often are periods of regression (Catholics) or schism because certain people in the group aren't hating the right people (U.S. Episcopelians), it is awfully hard to tell who's what.

Though there is one way to tell fundies from mainline/liberals: If they keep emphasizing the primacy of the Bible versus, say, creeds or faith, they're probably fundie.

What you seem to be describing are Catholics... though they'll swear till they're black and blue that the only parts of the Bible that cannot be metaphorical are the bits with Jesus.

OrdinaryClay wrote:

If you don't believe your non-belief then you don't believe and you must not be an atheist.

Posted on: June 27, 2009 - 7:13am #319

Fonzie

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Anonymouse wrote:Fonzie

Anonymouse wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
Anonymouse wrote:
Fonzie wrote:
Anonymouse wrote:
Fonzie wrote:
If God put me in the position of being a policeman or soldier and somebody needed to be shot I would have no problem shooting them.
The "higher authorities" are placed there by God (Romans in 13th). I have not been placed in either of those positions of action. The government is one of God's means of managing the world He created.

I think you may be inadvertently avoiding the question here. Killing people is part of the job when you're a policeman or a soldier, wether or not you believe god is telling you to pull the trigger.
Maybe he was asking you something more along the lines of : Would you be willing to kill an innocent child if you believed your god asked you to ?

Anonymouse,

I find nothing in today's gospel concerning killing innocent (or the guilty) other than the prosecuting arm of "governing authorities", executing justice as mentioned.

So trying to imagine what you're asking and I'm inadvertently avoiding - maybe Abraham being ready to offer up Isaac as instructed? Scriptures say "God tested Abraham", and God told him to go offer up his son that he loved, Isaac, on a mountain God would show him.

Understand that was a different age. Abraham had direct divine verbal instructions about this. Abraham was being used to illustrate the faith God wants: faith in God and His Word and Promises not based on "feelings". Abraham was willing to follow instructions and sacrifice the son of promise he had waited for so long - believing God could raise Isaac from the dead, so through faith he in effect received Isaac back from the dead.

When Abraham and Isaac walked away from that mountain knowing they had both willingly obeyed God - they passed the test and Abraham became the model of our faith. But we don't have those instructions. We are to put to death our fleshly side and walk by the Spirit through faith like Abraham's.

Or were you thinking of the boy stoned when Israel was in the wilderness for blaspheming the Name of God? That again was direct verbal instruction to Moses from God to stone him.

In these last days God has spoken to us through His Son (Hebrews 1). Through faith we are a witness because faith makes it real as real can be. But Jesus said nothing about us killing innocent or guilty. He did say that if you hate your brother you are a murderer. It's one thing to say one is a believer but another thing to actually be a believer in God and Christ.

So your answer is, "yes, if it was a direct verbal instruction from God to me, I would kill an innocent child" ?

So is your question, "I either didn't read or think about your answer but I do want this pull quote for my mischaracterization so would you please check the box in front of this statement?"

If I wanted to make assumptions about your character, I wouldn't bother asking you a question.
I did read your rather lengthy answer to a simple yes or no question. You seemed to be suggesting that "in a different age", when receiving "direct verbal instruction from God", a believer would kill an innocent child.
The question was if you would do the same, in this day and age, if you received a direct verbal instruction from god to do so.
If you do not wish to answer this question, simply say so, and I won't bother you again.

Neither a "verbal command" nor "kill the innocent" would be consistent with Christ's Life or Message (same thing). And in these "last days" God has spoken to us through His Son. "It is finished" - the Way of salvation for man is completely developed, no need for further development or verbal messages.

The young sapling early church had the supporting stake of special gifts of the Spirit - the Spirit spoke to them verbally, they could speak to foreigners in their language without spending time studying the language, heal lepers, etc, but the church doesn't have that scaffold now because we don't need it.

Posted on: June 27, 2009 - 7:20am #320

Fonzie

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butterbattle wrote:Fonzie

butterbattle wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
Ah, friend, so you read my answer. And are you deceived?
Well, that's the problem. I have no idea. If I am being deceived, it obviously follows that I don't know that I'm being deceived. If I knew I was being deceived, then I wouldn't be deceived. How do I solve this problem?
That said, I don't think it's fair that God allows us to be deceived, then lets us to go to hell because of it.

Butterbattle,

Yes that is a problem. The good news of deliverance from slavery in sin never comes under perfect conditions - it comes to a person in slavery to sin.

And the world we come into is 360 deg deceptions. And there is a time limit.

But it's very simple friend - probably that's a big part of the problem - here it is: believe in Jesus Christ and live. He does Live, and He will welcome you into His Life.

You do have to humble yourself - see yourself in the position you are really in, and ask Him to rescue you. He is faithful and He will do it if you truly cry out to Him. He will clear up the deception. Many have had this experience.

There is a Light shining in this darkness - hidden to some by heavy eyelids of prejudice.

Posted on: June 27, 2009 - 7:34am #321

Fonzie

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marshalltenbears wrote:That

marshalltenbears wrote:

That is great if it works for you. The problem with christians and the whole "it works for me" is that you want to make it work for everyone by force. I was indoctrinated as a child and forced to believe in it my whole life. If it works for you then fine, but keep it out of public schools and government, and especially our foreign policy.

It seems using the same reasoning you could say you were "forced" to go to school rather than stay home and play with Elmo all day.

Were you forced to stay at your desk and not talk to the students around you in class? Were you forced to be on time to class? Does this make you now reject learning?

I don't think you were beaten to a pulp and nailed to a cross so I doubt if it warped you. Kids are pretty resilient. Be glad somebody was interested enough in you that they were passionate about pushing something they truly believed was good for you even if the efforts weren't perfect. I'm sure you see your efforts aren't perfect either so you might look at their efforts as their view of highest love for you, just imperfect like yours.

I'm not for legislating Christianity by the way either - just like you. Jesus said "My kingdom is not of this world or my servants would fight". Jesus didn't use any force except pure love - putting all other's interests above Himself.

That "which was" in His day accused Him of being a threat to Caesar but that was spin then and spin now. The King of Kings didn't even verbally defend Himself before Pilate. He willingly died for our sins as the Perfect Lamb of God.

There were misdirected Christians trying to force things like "circumcision" on people during the first century - misdirected efforts. These heresies are addressed by the Holy Spirit through the epistles. Many of us have had a brush with misdirected passionate effort by immature Christians. Is there such a thing as a misdirected atheist effort? I wouldn't know on that, but I admit there are things to sort through in this cluttered world.

I have confidence you can take hold of your memory with wisdom and consider clearly the present - for the sake of the eternal future.

Posted on: June 27, 2009 - 7:38am #322

Fonzie

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jcgadfly wrote:Fonzie

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
The Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote:
Yeah, what's not to like about the bible? Stoning women and children is a regular, after-hour hobby for me, personally.

I love it all - every book, chapter and verse. It's all true.

Except for the demonstrably false parts...

True jcgadfly,

There are some demonstrably false parts, and they are demonstrated as false for our instruction - such as Satan's lies/ the false counsel of Job's friends/ the hypocrisy of the Pharisees, etc.

Posted on: June 27, 2009 - 7:41am #323

Fonzie

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Di66en6ion wrote:Fonzie

Di66en6ion wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
The Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote:
Yeah, what's not to like about the bible? Stoning women and children is a regular, after-hour hobby for me, personally.

I love it all - every book, chapter and verse. It's all true.

Fonzie wrote:
Di66i6ion wrote:

Also you didn't answer my other question. What is your reason for not living if god does not exist?
I glanced at that and thought it was what you guys call your "signature".
I can't unravel your rhetoric on this - it seems like kind of a verbal puzzle, false dilemma or double negative. Maybe you can overlay your impression of what would be my answer to it from my position so I can see what you mean.
God is as real to me as anything. Actually more.

A. Lost cause

B. Poe

I was lost true, and except for the grace of God in Christ I am a lost cause - but thankfully grace is available for me and you too. I'm taking advantage of it and you would be wise to.

I don't understand this Poe thing. It must be an inside joke.

Posted on: June 27, 2009 - 7:50am #324

Fonzie

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crazymonkie wrote:He's been

crazymonkie wrote:

He's been around longer than Poe's law. Hence (A).
Also: "EVERY chapter and verse?" Wasn't there something about abrogation of the 'old' Law?
I certainly don't recall anyone saying that shellfish, work on Saturdays, blended clothing, menstruating women or pork products are abominations in Christian sects. None of them.
And of course there's the...um... uneasy relation between Christianity and slavery. Yes, it did happen in the OT; yes, it was tacitly, if not actively, accepted by Christians and allowed to stand in the NT (remember- we're supposed to be SLAVES to Christ, not servants). So, okay- does this mean you're still cool with slavery? If so, this makes you an excellent moral absolutist and a follower of the law of god. If not, you're in relativist territory. Welcome. Pull up a chair. We have bacon, cotton/poly blend pants and bars open ALLLL Saturday. Enjoy the progress that your co-religionists tried to block, and act like you've still got the upper hand morally, by all means. I'll not stop you, though I will point out that you're very, very mistaken.

Crazymonkie,

I don't think the Bible is a good choice for speed reading true - as calculus. Just as the concept of "limits" bring us to figuring area under a curve the Law given to Moses - "do this and you will live" brings us to understand we need the grace of Jesus.

Only Jesus kept the Law perfectly, and not by lowering the standard of it. He taught the spiritual nature of it (such as "he who hates his brother is a murderer&quot Eye-wink .

If you left one pin of the Law standing in the 13th frame - you blew the whole thing. No one was able to fulfill the law by keeping it perfectly but Jesus. Thus Jesus didn't have to die - Death had nothing on Him. He had not broken any of God's Law.

But He died willingly - willing all the way I might add - to destroy the power of death for us, delivering us from the life long prison of fear of death, taking our sins on Himself for all those who put their wholehearted trust in HIm Who became a curse for us. Don't turn this down friend.

Concerning slavery you mentioned, Jesus didn't deal with it politically but rather spiritually. He changed the hearts of the slaves/ masters who believed in Him. Without God the king is miserable. With God the poorest man in the darkest dungeon can rejoice in the presence of God.

Hope this helps.

Posted on: June 27, 2009 - 7:57am #325

Fonzie

Posts: 1152

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crazymonkie wrote:Yeah,

crazymonkie wrote:

Yeah, sometimes those lines are rather blurry. Considering that pretty much none of them are willing to stand with non-believers on issues against other Christians, and that there often are periods of regression (Catholics) or schism because certain people in the group aren't hating the right people (U.S. Episcopelians), it is awfully hard to tell who's what.
Though there is one way to tell fundies from mainline/liberals: If they keep emphasizing the primacy of the Bible versus, say, creeds or faith, they're probably fundie.

What you seem to be describing are Catholics... though they'll swear till they're black and blue that the only parts of the Bible that cannot be metaphorical are the bits with Jesus.

Crazymonkie,

Wouldn't your time be better spent shining light on the right way than sorting the ins and outs of where everybody's missing it? You aren't laying any way out are you?

You are just taking the crowbar to everything - then smiling because you can wreck it with some turn of the bar.

Lay the way out. Tell us the way you think men should go. Put your theories to application to life in general, and beyond this life and let's see what you have.

Or will you use a clever saying to label and brush this challenge off - a gimmick that parlays life in the now for you. A weapon from the arsenal that can make a distractive debris blow and you walk away in the smoke feeling smart having shown nothing to light life.

Posted on: June 27, 2009 - 1:34pm #326

cervello_marcio

Posts: 210

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Fonzie wrote:jcgadfly

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:
Fonzie wrote:
The Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote:
Yeah, what's not to like about the bible? Stoning women and children is a regular, after-hour hobby for me, personally.
I love it all - every book, chapter and verse. It's all true.
Except for the demonstrably false parts...
True jcgadfly, There are some demonstrably false parts, and they are demonstrated as false for our instruction - such as Satan's lies/ the false counsel of Job's friends/ the hypocrisy of the Pharisees, etc.

Actually I think he was talking about the creation story, the references to unicorns and satyrs, saying the earth was flat, contradicting itself by saying to obey the government but to have no gods before the lord (rendering Daniel a heathen and bad example for all of us), saying all sins are equal in god's eyes and then condemning blasphemers to hell (no exceptions), etc, etc, etc.

"Do not, as some ungracious pastors do, show me the steep and thorny way to heaven. Whiles, like a puff'd and reckless libertine, himself the primrose path of dalliance treads. And recks not his own rede."

Posted on: June 27, 2009 - 2:41pm #327

butterbattle

Posts: 3945

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Fonzie wrote:But it's very

Fonzie wrote:

But it's very simple friend - probably that's a big part of the problem - here it is: believe in Jesus Christ and live. He does Live, and He will welcome you into His Life.

Easier said than done. Belief is a state, not a choice; as a result, I cannot simply choose to believe, but must actually think that Christianity is true. That requires either faith, evidence or a mixture of both. I don't have faith in this kind of stuff.

Quote:

You do have to humble yourself - see yourself in the position you are really in, and ask Him to rescue you. He is faithful and He will do it if you truly cry out to Him. He will clear up the deception. Many have had this experience.

How am I supposed to sincerely ask him to rescue me if I don't believe he exists?

Posted on: June 27, 2009 - 6:48pm #328

Paisley

Posts: 1933

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Jormungander wrote:Why is

Jormungander wrote:

Why is Fonzie's avatar a picture of a woman fellatiating a pot of some kind?
This is obscene. I really wish that I was the pot though.

Okay. I'll give you a point for this one. It was clever. But I suspect the avatar is symbolically depicting Jesus' response to the woman of Samaria at Jacob's well.

"Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: but whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw." John 4:13-15 (KJV)

"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead

Posted on: June 27, 2009 - 7:14pm #329

Paisley

Posts: 1933

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Fonzie wrote: Faith in

Fonzie wrote:

Faith in Jesus works for me - it's exciting. I love the Bible and believe all of it - though there is mystery. There is mystery everywhere though, right? I am a incredibly happy believer in Jesus. I'm not a theologian, I just believe in Jesus.

Good for you. And yes I agree, there is mystery. That's the attraction. That's the source of the awe. Of course, atheists claim to experience the same thing while watching fireworks or taking a trip down to the local "Mattress Giant" and lying down on a pillow top queen size mattress. But it's really not quite the same thing. Is it?

Remember:

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Corinthians 2:14

Fonzie wrote:

So do you guys think that I'm fooling myself, not really happy, you don't believe me, or do you really think I can't be as happy or enlightened as you - are you evangelistic in that sense or what? What is the purpose of this site? Do you have something better to offer? If so, what is your gospel?

I think the purpose of this site is the same purpose that an older brother has when he seeks to undermine his younger brother's belief in Santa Claus. By dispelling the myth of Santa Claus (a.k.a. "Sky Daddy" in atheistic speak), the nonbeliever hopes to strip you of that "mystery feeling" because they can no longer feel it. Imagine living in a world where you no longer have that "ooh ahh" feeling and then you begin to understand the psyche of the atheist mind.

"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead

Posted on: June 27, 2009 - 8:58pm #330

cervello_marcio

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Paisley wrote:Good for you.

Paisley wrote:

Good for you. And yes I agree, there is mystery. That's the attraction. That's the source of the awe. Of course, atheists claim to experience the same thing while watching fireworks or taking a trip down to the local "Mattress Giant" and lying down on a pillow top queen size mattress. But it's really not quite the same thing. Is it?
Remember:
"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Corinthians 2:14

Right. No mystery in the universe for us to be bewildered and humbled by. At least we can attempt to understand what leaves us in such awe.

Paisley wrote:

I think the purpose of this site is the same purpose that an older brother has when he seeks to undermine his younger brother's belief in Santa Claus. By dispelling the myth of Santa Claus (a.k.a. "Sky Daddy" in atheistic speak), the nonbeliever hopes to strip you of that "mystery feeling" because they can no longer feel it. Imagine living in a world where you no longer have that "ooh ahh" feeling and then you begin to understand the psyche of the atheist mind.

You seriously have no clue, do you?

I'd offer you a kitten, but they don't seem to be making you feel better about being so wrong about everything ever. Would you prefer a picture of Jesus juxtaposed with an image of an aborted fetus? I've noticed those seem to really put Christians into a frenzy of ecstasy.

Posted on: June 29, 2009 - 5:22am #331

crazymonkie

Posts: 336

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Fonzie wrote:Crazymonkie, I

Fonzie wrote:

Crazymonkie,

I don't think the Bible is a good choice for speed reading true - as calculus. Just as the concept of "limits" bring us to figuring area under a curve the Law given to Moses - "do this and you will live" brings us to understand we need the grace of Jesus

That's terribly presumptuous of you. How do you know that I 'speed read' the Bible? Answer: you don't. And I didn't. I was a Christian- a real fucking Christian- for close to ten years. It was through looking at the 'prophesies' of the Messiah, and then cross-referencing them to Jesus, that I started to realize that it was bullshit. So, yeah, 'speed reading.' I'm sure.

Quote:

Only Jesus kept the Law perfectly, and not by lowering the standard of it. He taught the spiritual nature of it (such as "he who hates his brother is a murderer&quot.

So do you need to keep the laws or not? And which laws? Why is it that 'no shellfish' is abrogated, but 'no same-sex physical relations' isn't? What's the criterion? According to Judaism, the Law will ALWAYS be. According to Christians, the Law is there for their own arrogant misuse.

Quote:

If you left one pin of the Law standing in the 13th frame - you blew the whole thing. No one was able to fulfill the law by keeping it perfectly but Jesus. Thus Jesus didn't have to die - Death had nothing on Him. He had not broken any of God's Law.

Uh huh. So the fact that he was god in the flesh had nothing to do with his resurrection, then? It was because he was a perfect human. Oh wait- that's a self-contradictory statement. Here you need him to be fully man, but you also need him to be fully god because no human is allowed to be completely moral. This makes no sense, but I'm sure you won't see that.

Quote:

But He died willingly - willing all the way I might add - to destroy the power of death for us, delivering us from the life long prison of fear of death,

And replacing it with a fear of eternal torment if we don't love him back. I don't respond well to threats, and your idea of 'love' is sick and repulsive to anyone with half a sense of real justice and love.

Quote:

taking our sins on Himself for all those who put their wholehearted trust in HIm Who became a curse for us.

And he could have just not been a dick about it and realized that it was HIS FAILURE in not EXPLAINING to the INNOCENT first man and woman just what would happen if they ate from the Tree- and he did lie, BTW- that whole 'spiritual death' nonsense Christianity has been spouting since the idea of original sin came up has NEVER held water, as 'die' means CF: 'Moses/Abraham/Lot died.' He also could have changed hearts, minds, etc. He could have given us free will and the inability to sin (IE- the inability to send ourselves to hell). Just because we can't imagine it doesn't mean that god couldn't have done it. So stop making excuses.

Quote:

Don't turn this down friend.

Have, will continue to, and I'm not your friend.

Quote:

Concerning slavery you mentioned, Jesus didn't deal with it politically but rather spiritually.

So he stepped aside and allowed slavery to continue, even after the Roman Empire converted en masse to Christianity. Great. So Jesus is culpable also. Just how much good does 'spiritual freedom' do for slaves? Why don't we ask the slaves in the Ottoman Empire who were spiritually 'freed' by being forced to convert to Islam; why don't we ask the black African Americans who were so lovingly given 'true religion' by (admittedly brave) underground preachers and yet not given basic dignity of humanity. How much good does 'spiritual' power do for someone?

Quote:

He changed the hearts of the slaves/ masters who believed in Him.

Not enough to free their slaves. So not enough.

Quote:

Without God the king is miserable. With God the poorest man in the darkest dungeon can rejoice in the presence of God.

Whoopie. Who cares? Misery is with believers as well. They don't do better, and if you say this is the case you are a liar or unbelievably blind.

Quote:

Hope this helps.

Nope. Your apologetics are laughable.

Quote:

Wouldn't your time be better spent shining light on the right way than sorting the ins and outs of where everybody's missing it? You aren't laying any way out are you?

There is no way out. That's an illusion fostered by deluded fools like yourself who believe that humanity NEEDS saving. We are alone. Deal with it. There is no ultimate authority. Deal with it. There is no sin, only negative results from acts that people cloak in the psychological power of religion. Deal with it.

Quote:

You are just taking the crowbar to everything - then smiling because you can wreck it with some turn of the bar.

And you're not building a single thing up. Just building houses of sand and acting like we can all live in them if we just BELIEVE it won't be destroyed on the next humid day. And how about we drop this presumptuous attitude, huh?

Quote:

Lay the way out. Tell us the way you think men should go. Put your theories to application to life in general, and beyond this life and let's see what you have.

I don't have theories. And I don't have 'a way out.' Situations are way too complicated to have a catch-all answer for all things. And it's CERTAINLY true that morals change. There is no 'beyond' this life. Unless you count a corpse rotting in a grave as 'beyond.' I don't, personally.

You don't have answers either, BTW. You just have an ever-shrinking book full of assertions. Look at what's happened to what Christianity has thought of women; look at what it's thought of slaves; look at what it's thought of gay people. .... Okay, don't look at that last one. That's the ONE FUCKING COMMAND that seems to be bulletproof, even though it was only backed up by Paul and was waaaaay in the middle of all the other commands. You know, about how women should move apart from men when they have their menses and how shellfish are disgusting and how pork products are abomination. Yeah, those that you like to ignore. But I talked about this already. Moving along.

Quote:

Or will you use a clever saying to label and brush this challenge off - a gimmick that parlays life in the now for you.

You remind me of so many of the Church Fathers it's not even funny.

You get shredded in debate; you have no answer?

The problem is not your religion, the problem is not your own ignorance, it's the problem of the 'philosopher' on the other end. Yup, it's totally the fault of the guy who's out-debated you. Not your problem with your own reactions, or a problem with the base of your religion.

This is no challenge. You have no position. You have no points. You just repeat apologetic pablum and act like you've said something worthwhile.

Quote:

A weapon from the arsenal that can make a distractive debris blow and you walk away in the smoke feeling smart having shown nothing to light life.

'Light' in life is what we make of it. Not what a religious text says it is. What the 'light' is varies from time to time and place to place. Ultimate moral/ethical authority lies with us. And while there is no *ultimate* moral code, fixed for all time, there are a few things (like the basic wrongness of child sex, or 'seperate but equal' ideas equality of the sexes) that is damn close to objectively wrong. Why? Because it harms others. Though 'harms others' is awfully vage, and we often have to qualify it with 'ongoing harm' or somesuch. Momentary harm that alleviates pain in the long run (like chemotherapy) has to be discounted. Aaaanyway- don't assume that I don't have ANY answers because I don't bow to your silly assertions. I don't have *many* answers, but I do have ideas. Unfortunately, I also have no power to affect change with these ideas, so any ideas I may talk about are moot points.

Just because I am an atheist, do not assume I am a nihilist. And don't assume that I'm just doing this to feel clever. I feel clever without digging through your nonsense.

OrdinaryClay wrote:

If you don't believe your non-belief then you don't believe and you must not be an atheist.

Posted on: July 5, 2009 - 9:14am #332

Fonzie

Posts: 1152

Joined: 2008-08-31

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cervello_marcio wrote:Fonzie

cervello_marcio wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
jcgadfly wrote:
Fonzie wrote:
The Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote:
Yeah, what's not to like about the bible? Stoning women and children is a regular, after-hour hobby for me, personally.
I love it all - every book, chapter and verse. It's all true.
Except for the demonstrably false parts...

True jcgadfly, There are some demonstrably false parts, and they are demonstrated as false for our instruction - such as Satan's lies/ the false counsel of Job's friends/ the hypocrisy of the Pharisees, etc.
Actually I think he was talking about the creation story, the references to unicorns and satyrs, saying the earth was flat, contradicting itself by saying to obey the government but to have no gods before the lord (rendering Daniel a heathen and bad example for all of us), saying all sins are equal in god's eyes and then condemning blasphemers to hell (no exceptions), etc, etc, etc.

Rightly understood in the light of the truth Christ brings there is no contradiction.

Posted on: July 5, 2009 - 9:18am #333

Fonzie

Posts: 1152

Joined: 2008-08-31

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butterbattle wrote:Fonzie

butterbattle wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

But it's very simple friend - probably that's a big part of the problem - here it is: believe in Jesus Christ and live. He does Live, and He will welcome you into His Life.

Easier said than done. Belief is a state, not a choice; as a result, I cannot simply choose to believe, but must actually think that Christianity is true. That requires either faith, evidence or a mixture of both. I don't have faith in this kind of stuff.

Quote:
You do have to humble yourself - see yourself in the position you are really in, and ask Him to rescue you. He is faithful and He will do it if you truly cry out to Him. He will clear up the deception. Many have had this experience.

How am I supposed to sincerely ask him to rescue me if I don't believe he exists?

If you read the Scriptures honestly - crying out for answers you would find the LORD and His gospel - His atoning death which is the only thing that can pay for your sins, the death of the Lamb of God.

You might sacrifice years in college reading big dull books for a goal or reason that seems right to you - well this is an eternal reason and is worth your honest and effort and sacrifice to check it out. The Word of God promises to produce faith. What is needed on your end is an open door.

Posted on: July 5, 2009 - 9:29am #334

Fonzie

Posts: 1152

Joined: 2008-08-31

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crazymonkie wrote:Fonzie

crazymonkie wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

Crazymonkie,

I don't think the Bible is a good choice for speed reading true - as calculus. Just as the concept of "limits" bring us to figuring area under a curve the Law given to Moses - "do this and you will live" brings us to understand we need the grace of Jesus

That's terribly presumptuous of you. How do you know that I 'speed read' the Bible? Answer: you don't. And I didn't. I was a Christian- a real fucking Christian- for close to ten years. It was through looking at the 'prophesies' of the Messiah, and then cross-referencing them to Jesus, that I started to realize that it was bullshit. So, yeah, 'speed reading.' I'm sure.
Quote:
Only Jesus kept the Law perfectly, and not by lowering the standard of it. He taught the spiritual nature of it (such as "he who hates his brother is a murderer&quot.
So do you need to keep the laws or not? And which laws? Why is it that 'no shellfish' is abrogated, but 'no same-sex physical relations' isn't? What's the criterion? According to Judaism, the Law will ALWAYS be. According to Christians, the Law is there for their own arrogant misuse.
Quote:
If you left one pin of the Law standing in the 13th frame - you blew the whole thing. No one was able to fulfill the law by keeping it perfectly but Jesus. Thus Jesus didn't have to die - Death had nothing on Him. He had not broken any of God's Law.

Uh huh. So the fact that he was god in the flesh had nothing to do with his resurrection, then? It was because he was a perfect human. Oh wait- that's a self-contradictory statement. Here you need him to be fully man, but you also need him to be fully god because no human is allowed to be completely moral. This makes no sense, but I'm sure you won't see that.
Quote:
But He died willingly - willing all the way I might add - to destroy the power of death for us, delivering us from the life long prison of fear of death,
And replacing it with a fear of eternal torment if we don't love him back. I don't respond well to threats, and your idea of 'love' is sick and repulsive to anyone with half a sense of real justice and love.
Quote:
taking our sins on Himself for all those who put their wholehearted trust in HIm Who became a curse for us.
And he could have just not been a dick about it and realized that it was HIS FAILURE in not EXPLAINING to the INNOCENT first man and woman just what would happen if they ate from the Tree- and he did lie, BTW- that whole 'spiritual death' nonsense Christianity has been spouting since the idea of original sin came up has NEVER held water, as 'die' means CF: 'Moses/Abraham/Lot died.' He also could have changed hearts, minds, etc. He could have given us free will and the inability to sin (IE- the inability to send ourselves to hell). Just because we can't imagine it doesn't mean that god couldn't have done it. So stop making excuses.
Quote:
Don't turn this down friend.

Have, will continue to, and I'm not your friend.
Quote:
Concerning slavery you mentioned, Jesus didn't deal with it politically but rather spiritually.
So he stepped aside and allowed slavery to continue, even after the Roman Empire converted en masse to Christianity. Great. So Jesus is culpable also. Just how much good does 'spiritual freedom' do for slaves? Why don't we ask the slaves in the Ottoman Empire who were spiritually 'freed' by being forced to convert to Islam; why don't we ask the black African Americans who were so lovingly given 'true religion' by (admittedly brave) underground preachers and yet not given basic dignity of humanity. How much good does 'spiritual' power do for someone?
Quote:
He changed the hearts of the slaves/ masters who believed in Him.
Not enough to free their slaves. So not enough.
Quote:
Without God the king is miserable. With God the poorest man in the darkest dungeon can rejoice in the presence of God.

Whoopie. Who cares? Misery is with believers as well. They don't do better, and if you say this is the case you are a liar or unbelievably blind.
Quote:
Hope this helps.

Nope. Your apologetics are laughable.
Quote:
Wouldn't your time be better spent shining light on the right way than sorting the ins and outs of where everybody's missing it? You aren't laying any way out are you?
There is no way out. That's an illusion fostered by deluded fools like yourself who believe that humanity NEEDS saving. We are alone. Deal with it. There is no ultimate authority. Deal with it. There is no sin, only negative results from acts that people cloak in the psychological power of religion. Deal with it.
Quote:
You are just taking the crowbar to everything - then smiling because you can wreck it with some turn of the bar.
And you're not building a single thing up. Just building houses of sand and acting like we can all live in them if we just BELIEVE it won't be destroyed on the next humid day. And how about we drop this presumptuous attitude, huh?
Quote:
Lay the way out. Tell us the way you think men should go. Put your theories to application to life in general, and beyond this life and let's see what you have.
I don't have theories. And I don't have 'a way out.' Situations are way too complicated to have a catch-all answer for all things. And it's CERTAINLY true that morals change. There is no 'beyond' this life. Unless you count a corpse rotting in a grave as 'beyond.' I don't, personally.
You don't have answers either, BTW. You just have an ever-shrinking book full of assertions. Look at what's happened to what Christianity has thought of women; look at what it's thought of slaves; look at what it's thought of gay people. .... Okay, don't look at that last one. That's the ONE FUCKING COMMAND that seems to be bulletproof, even though it was only backed up by Paul and was waaaaay in the middle of all the other commands. You know, about how women should move apart from men when they have their menses and how shellfish are disgusting and how pork products are abomination. Yeah, those that you like to ignore. But I talked about this already. Moving along.
Quote:
Or will you use a clever saying to label and brush this challenge off - a gimmick that parlays life in the now for you.
You remind me of so many of the Church Fathers it's not even funny.
You get shredded in debate; you have no answer?
The problem is not your religion, the problem is not your own ignorance, it's the problem of the 'philosopher' on the other end. Yup, it's totally the fault of the guy who's out-debated you. Not your problem with your own reactions, or a problem with the base of your religion.
This is no challenge. You have no position. You have no points. You just repeat apologetic pablum and act like you've said something worthwhile.
Quote:
A weapon from the arsenal that can make a distractive debris blow and you walk away in the smoke feeling smart having shown nothing to light life.
'Light' in life is what we make of it. Not what a religious text says it is. What the 'light' is varies from time to time and place to place. Ultimate moral/ethical authority lies with us. And while there is no *ultimate* moral code, fixed for all time, there are a few things (like the basic wrongness of child sex, or 'seperate but equal' ideas equality of the sexes) that is damn close to objectively wrong. Why? Because it harms others. Though 'harms others' is awfully vage, and we often have to qualify it with 'ongoing harm' or somesuch. Momentary harm that alleviates pain in the long run (like chemotherapy) has to be discounted. Aaaanyway- don't assume that I don't have ANY answers because I don't bow to your silly assertions. I don't have *many* answers, but I do have ideas. Unfortunately, I also have no power to affect change with these ideas, so any ideas I may talk about are moot points.
Just because I am an atheist, do not assume I am a nihilist. And don't assume that I'm just doing this to feel clever. I feel clever without digging through your nonsense.

Crazymonkie,

Friend, I am your friend trying to tell you that Jesus died for your sins. But Jesus is your Friend of Friends - whether you know it or not, He is the best Friend you can have. When I found Christ there were guys that were my friend though I wasn't a friend to them.

It has not been my desire to irritate you though it looks like I have - sorry for that I think I strayed from what my focus should be.

My position is this: Christ and Him crucified. Believe in Christ and live. He came to earth 100% man and 100% God, lived a perfect life, didn't have to die, but died for our sins - paid the price of our debt before God.

All my hope and trust and life and peace are in Jesus. I have done nothing at all concerning my salvation or justification before God - Jesus and God have done it all. Now Jesus and God and the Holy Spirit live in me. I see it clearly with the eyes of faith. With the eyes of faith I can see beyond death - which holds no dread for me. I can look back with no regret - Jesus has resolved all regrets. I can live fully in the moment and experience Christ in the moment with no distractions past present or future. This is a great redemption I am trying to share with you - not trying to make you mad or force it on you. I understand that my salvation and the state of peace through the grace of GBod in Christ is not at all my work but a gift - thus what I am saying - none of my salvation is dependent on getting you to accept Christ. I am only trying to share something that's too great to describe.

I hope you'll reconsider and retrace your steps.

Posted on: July 5, 2009 - 11:05am #335

cervello_marcio

Posts: 210

Joined: 2009-05-19

Offline

Fonzie wrote:cervello_marcio

Fonzie wrote:

cervello_marcio wrote:
Actually I think he was talking about the creation story, the references to unicorns and satyrs, saying the earth was flat, contradicting itself by saying to obey the government but to have no gods before the lord (rendering Daniel a heathen and bad example for all of us), saying all sins are equal in god's eyes and then condemning blasphemers to hell (no exceptions), etc, etc, etc.
Rightly understood in the light of the truth Christ brings there is no contradiction.

Okay. I was a Baptist for 18 years but I guess I missed the boat on that one. Why don't you go ahead and explain to me how it is not contradictory.

Romans 13: "Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves...They are God's servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience."

And now from Daniel:

"6:10 Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house; and his windows being open in his chamber toward Jerusalem, he kneeled upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and gave thanks before his God, as he did aforetime.

6:11 Then these men assembled, and found Daniel praying and making supplication before his God.

6:12 Then they came near, and spake before the king concerning the king's decree; Hast thou not signed a decree, that every man that shall ask a petition of any God or man within thirty days, save of thee, O king, shall be cast into the den of lions? The king answered and said, The thing is true, according to the law of the Medes and Persians, which altereth not.

6:13 Then answered they and said before the king, That Daniel, which is of the children of the captivity of Judah, regardeth not thee, O king, nor the decree that thou hast signed, but maketh his petition three times a day."

Posted on: July 6, 2009 - 12:03am #336

crazymonkie

Posts: 336

Joined: 2009-03-09

Offline

Fonzie

Fonzie wrote:

Crazymonkie,

Friend, I am your friend trying to tell you that Jesus died for your sins. But Jesus is your Friend of Friends - whether you know it or not, He is the best Friend you can have. When I found Christ there were guys that were my friend though I wasn't a friend to them.

Pablum, and nonsense. Jesus died for my sins so I'd have a direct route to kiss his ass in heaven. Go ahead, try and make it into a positive thing. It's impossible. God made the rules that he knew humanity couldn't abide by, then sent himself as a sacrifice to himself to cleanse the sins from humankind that only a very tiny group of people (the Jews) knew about 'properly.'

Jesus is sitting there on the cross saying "I DID THIS FOR YOU!" and I do not care. I didn't ask for god to decide on rules he knew from the beginning wouldn't work; I didn't ask for god to come to earth to fix the errors he created; and heaven is not my idea of heaven, as it would require me to be brain-wiped and mind-controlled (to not think about the suffering people who did LOTS of good things on earth, but were not Christian), and I don't want to kiss god's ass for eternity for this nonsense.

Quote:

It has not been my desire to irritate you though it looks like I have - sorry for that I think I strayed from what my focus should be.

And now we move to the inevitable passive-aggressive martyr syndrome. Knock it off. Your apologies are empty and clearly have an agenda behind them.

Quote:

My position is this: Christ and Him crucified. Believe in Christ and live. He came to earth 100% man and 100% God, lived a perfect life, didn't have to die, but died for our sins - paid the price of our debt before God.

So you mean you believe in the Nicene creed? WOW! That's a totally new concept to me.

Quote:

All my hope and trust and life and peace are in Jesus.

And that's incredibly sad. To have to ignore all these illogical points, chalking them up to a "mystery" when they're CLEARLY nonsense masquerading as deep metaphysical points, really shortchanges your precious time on earth.

Let me get more specific. Our time on earth is precious. YOUR time on earth is precious. It is so precious, in fact, that to waste time worshiping a being that can't be seen or experienced- apparently not even indirectly- and who has a MASSIVE problem with two-way communication, despite being the CREATOR AND SUSTAINER OF THE UNIVERSE!!! is mind-boggling.

And to further utterly ignore all other claimants to 'the truth' based upon preference (and please, don't tell me it's anything else, because it's clear it isn't) makes your apparent monopoly on truth just that- appearance. If you can explain to me how 'works based' religions are false, how the case is made for Jesus over any other religious god-man WITHOUT resorting to the Bible or theologians using the Bible or making horrendous leaps of logic from 'First Cause' to 'Jesus our Lord and Savior', I'd like to hear it.

Quote:

I have done nothing at all concerning my salvation or justification before God - Jesus and God have done it all.

Humans don't need salvation. We are what we are. We can only 'save' ourselves as a species. There is NO god who will do this. This sin garbage is the absolute worst baggage your people got from the Jews. The worst.

Quote:

Now Jesus and God and the Holy Spirit live in me.

Where? How? Does the Trinity talk to you? Directly? Do they give you spiritual gifts? What are spiritual gifts? How do they work?

Quote:

I see it clearly with the eyes of faith. With the eyes of faith I can see beyond death - which holds no dread for me.

So you're fine with the fact that you're guessing then? Fair enough.

Quote:

I can look back with no regret - Jesus has resolved all regrets.

How? Directly? Where's this two-way communication going on? Are you sure it wasn't you who resolved the regrets, and you just ascribed the resolution to your invisible, intangible, non-communicative all-powerful and all-knowing deity?

Quote:

I can live fully in the moment and experience Christ in the moment with no distractions past present or future.

You can't fully live in the moment because you have to think about sin. About what's wrong in the sight of god. I can think of three off the top of my head that have NO place in a modern society- at least not as anything other than personal preference. There are many, many, more. Including like 99% of the old Law that you ignore because Jesus 'fulfilled' it.

Though apparently not enough to where it doesn't matter whether we kiss god's ass or not, because if we don't he still sends us to a place of torment for all eternity. Oh, and apparently not to the point where homosexuality is okay. Which is weird, because that law is sandwiched (heh heh) between stuff about not being able to eat certain animals and laws about clothing. Ignored, all, except that one. Weird, and idiotic at the same time.

Quote:

This is a great redemption I am trying to share with you - not trying to make you mad or force it on you.

I know you're not doing either. But your arguments are absurd, your ideas moreso, and I truly, truly feel sorry that you're so consumed that right now, as you're reading this, you see ME as the one whose eyes are shut tight against the truth.

Quote:

I understand that my salvation and the state of peace through the grace of GBod in Christ is not at all my work but a gift - thus what I am saying - none of my salvation is dependent on getting you to accept Christ. I am only trying to share something that's too great to describe.

I know. You're just reproducing the meme, as your god requires of you.

Quote:

I hope you'll reconsider and retrace your steps.

No.

Actually, that's not emphatic enough.

Fuck no.

There. That's more like it. When you go forward, you can't go back. If the ideas don't make sense any more, and I can the history behind the creation of these ideas, and understand that they're from human beings and not from any god, and I can actually believe my lying eyes rather than what some putz theologian or preacher or priest tells me, then there's no point in pretending that it does.

If I see that Pascal's Wager is so weighted with biases and unexamined presuppositions that it becomes totally useless to say 'why not god?' then I'm not going to 'retrace my steps' and do, in essence, what Pascal suggests skeptics and atheists do. We have PLENTY to lose: Our time, our money, and potentially whatever efforts we might put forward, assuming we are only helping out believers. Or potential believers. Which is often the case with 'faith-based' work.

OrdinaryClay wrote:

If you don't believe your non-belief then you don't believe and you must not be an atheist.

Posted on: July 17, 2009 - 6:54am #337

Fonzie

Posts: 1152

Joined: 2008-08-31

Offline

NO CONTRADICTION

cervello_marcio wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
cervello_marcio wrote:
Actually I think he was talking about the creation story, the references to unicorns and satyrs, saying the earth was flat, contradicting itself by saying to obey the government but to have no gods before the lord (rendering Daniel a heathen and bad example for all of us), saying all sins are equal in god's eyes and then condemning blasphemers to hell (no exceptions), etc, etc, etc.
Rightly understood in the light of the truth Christ brings there is no contradiction.
Okay. I was a Baptist for 18 years but I guess I missed the boat on that one. Why don't you go ahead and explain to me how it is not contradictory.
Romans 13: "Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves...They are God's servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience."
And now from Daniel:

"6:10 Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house; and his windows being open in his chamber toward Jerusalem, he kneeled upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and gave thanks before his God, as he did aforetime.
6:11 Then these men assembled, and found Daniel praying and making supplication before his God.

6:12 Then they came near, and spake before the king concerning the king's decree; Hast thou not signed a decree, that every man that shall ask a petition of any God or man within thirty days, save of thee, O king, shall be cast into the den of lions? The king answered and said, The thing is true, according to the law of the Medes and Persians, which altereth not.

6:13 Then answered they and said before the king, That Daniel, which is of the children of the captivity of Judah, regardeth not thee, O king, nor the decree that thou hast signed, but maketh his petition three times a day."

Cervello,

There's no conflict here: The Holy Spirit in Romans says to be subject to the governing authorities. This instruction is from God - the Top Authority.

(Daniel 6.3 "Then this Daniel became distinguished above all the other presidents and the satraps, because an excellent spirit was in him; and the king planned to set Him over the whole kingdom. 4 Then the presidents and the satraps sought to find a ground for complaint against Daniel with regard to the kingdom; but they could fin no ground for complaint or any fault, because he was faithful, and no error or fault was found in him. 5 Then these men said, 'We shall not find any ground for complaint against this Daniel unless we find it in connection with the law of his God)' ".

There was a little Chicago politics going on, and Daniel ended up in the lion's den - submitting both to God and the government of his day. The crooked politicians eventually ended up there too with a different result in their misuse and perversion of authority. All worked out for a good lesson in faith and submission.

Posted on: July 17, 2009 - 7:02am #338

Fonzie

Posts: 1152

Joined: 2008-08-31

Offline

OK CRAZYMONKIE

crazymonkie wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
Crazymonkie,

Friend, I am your friend trying to tell you that Jesus died for your sins. But Jesus is your Friend of Friends - whether you know it or not, He is the best Friend you can have. When I found Christ there were guys that were my friend though I wasn't a friend to them.
Pablum, and nonsense. Jesus died for my sins so I'd have a direct route to kiss his ass in heaven. Go ahead, try and make it into a positive thing. It's impossible. God made the rules that he knew humanity couldn't abide by, then sent himself as a sacrifice to himself to cleanse the sins from humankind that only a very tiny group of people (the Jews) knew about 'properly.'
Jesus is sitting there on the cross saying "I DID THIS FOR YOU!" and I do not care. I didn't ask for god to decide on rules he knew from the beginning wouldn't work; I didn't ask for god to come to earth to fix the errors he created; and heaven is not my idea of heaven, as it would require me to be brain-wiped and mind-controlled (to not think about the suffering people who did LOTS of good things on earth, but were not Christian), and I don't want to kiss god's ass for eternity for this nonsense.
Quote:
It has not been my desire to irritate you though it looks like I have - sorry for that I think I strayed from what my focus should be.
And now we move to the inevitable passive-aggressive martyr syndrome. Knock it off. Your apologies are empty and clearly have an agenda behind them.
Quote:
My position is this: Christ and Him crucified. Believe in Christ and live. He came to earth 100% man and 100% God, lived a perfect life, didn't have to die, but died for our sins - paid the price of our debt before God.
So you mean you believe in the Nicene creed? WOW! That's a totally new concept to me.
Quote:
All my hope and trust and life and peace are in Jesus.
And that's incredibly sad. To have to ignore all these illogical points, chalking them up to a "mystery" when they're CLEARLY nonsense masquerading as deep metaphysical points, really shortchanges your precious time on earth.
Let me get more specific. Our time on earth is precious. YOUR time on earth is precious. It is so precious, in fact, that to waste time worshiping a being that can't be seen or experienced- apparently not even indirectly- and who has a MASSIVE problem with two-way communication, despite being the CREATOR AND SUSTAINER OF THE UNIVERSE!!! is mind-boggling.
And to further utterly ignore all other claimants to 'the truth' based upon preference (and please, don't tell me it's anything else, because it's clear it isn't) makes your apparent monopoly on truth just that- appearance. If you can explain to me how 'works based' religions are false, how the case is made for Jesus over any other religious god-man WITHOUT resorting to the Bible or theologians using the Bible or making horrendous leaps of logic from 'First Cause' to 'Jesus our Lord and Savior', I'd like to hear it.
Quote:
I have done nothing at all concerning my salvation or justification before God - Jesus and God have done it all.
Humans don't need salvation. We are what we are. We can only 'save' ourselves as a species. There is NO god who will do this. This sin garbage is the absolute worst baggage your people got from the Jews. The worst.
Quote:
Now Jesus and God and the Holy Spirit live in me.
Where? How? Does the Trinity talk to you? Directly? Do they give you spiritual gifts? What are spiritual gifts? How do they work?
Quote:
I see it clearly with the eyes of faith. With the eyes of faith I can see beyond death - which holds no dread for me.
So you're fine with the fact that you're guessing then? Fair enough.
Quote:
I can look back with no regret - Jesus has resolved all regrets.
How? Directly? Where's this two-way communication going on? Are you sure it wasn't you who resolved the regrets, and you just ascribed the resolution to your invisible, intangible, non-communicative all-powerful and all-knowing deity?
Quote:
I can live fully in the moment and experience Christ in the moment with no distractions past present or future.
You can't fully live in the moment because you have to think about sin. About what's wrong in the sight of god. I can think of three off the top of my head that have NO place in a modern society- at least not as anything other than personal preference. There are many, many, more. Including like 99% of the old Law that you ignore because Jesus 'fulfilled' it.
Though apparently not enough to where it doesn't matter whether we kiss god's ass or not, because if we don't he still sends us to a place of torment for all eternity. Oh, and apparently not to the point where homosexuality is okay. Which is weird, because that law is sandwiched (heh heh) between stuff about not being able to eat certain animals and laws about clothing. Ignored, all, except that one. Weird, and idiotic at the same time.
Quote:
This is a great redemption I am trying to share with you - not trying to make you mad or force it on you.
I know you're not doing either. But your arguments are absurd, your ideas moreso, and I truly, truly feel sorry that you're so consumed that right now, as you're reading this, you see ME as the one whose eyes are shut tight against the truth.
Quote:
I understand that my salvation and the state of peace through the grace of GBod in Christ is not at all my work but a gift - thus what I am saying - none of my salvation is dependent on getting you to accept Christ. I am only trying to share something that's too great to describe.
I know. You're just reproducing the meme, as your god requires of you.
Quote:
I hope you'll reconsider and retrace your steps.
No.

Actually, that's not emphatic enough.
Fuck no.
There. That's more like it. When you go forward, you can't go back. If the ideas don't make sense any more, and I can the history behind the creation of these ideas, and understand that they're from human beings and not from any god, and I can actually believe my lying eyes rather than what some putz theologian or preacher or priest tells me, then there's no point in pretending that it does.
If I see that Pascal's Wager is so weighted with biases and unexamined presuppositions that it becomes totally useless to say 'why not god?' then I'm not going to 'retrace my steps' and do, in essence, what Pascal suggests skeptics and atheists do. We have PLENTY to lose: Our time, our money, and potentially whatever efforts we might put forward, assuming we are only helping out believers. Or potential believers. Which is often the case with 'faith-based' work.

Crazymonkie, Obviously you are happy with the way you are, the way you have been, the way you will be - secure, fulfilled, at peace, full of undying and sincere love for all mankind - and I wager you don't need any more encouragement from the likes of me.

Posted on: July 20, 2009 - 9:50am #339

jcgadfly

Posts: 6791

Joined: 2006-07-18

Offline

Fonzie wrote:cervello_marcio

Fonzie wrote:

cervello_marcio wrote:
Fonzie wrote:
cervello_marcio wrote:
Actually I think he was talking about the creation story, the references to unicorns and satyrs, saying the earth was flat, contradicting itself by saying to obey the government but to have no gods before the lord (rendering Daniel a heathen and bad example for all of us), saying all sins are equal in god's eyes and then condemning blasphemers to hell (no exceptions), etc, etc, etc.
Rightly understood in the light of the truth Christ brings there is no contradiction.
Okay. I was a Baptist for 18 years but I guess I missed the boat on that one. Why don't you go ahead and explain to me how it is not contradictory.
Romans 13: "Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves...They are God's servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience."
And now from Daniel:

"6:10 Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house; and his windows being open in his chamber toward Jerusalem, he kneeled upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and gave thanks before his God, as he did aforetime.
6:11 Then these men assembled, and found Daniel praying and making supplication before his God.

6:12 Then they came near, and spake before the king concerning the king's decree; Hast thou not signed a decree, that every man that shall ask a petition of any God or man within thirty days, save of thee, O king, shall be cast into the den of lions? The king answered and said, The thing is true, according to the law of the Medes and Persians, which altereth not.

6:13 Then answered they and said before the king, That Daniel, which is of the children of the captivity of Judah, regardeth not thee, O king, nor the decree that thou hast signed, but maketh his petition three times a day."

Cervello,

There's no conflict here: The Holy Spirit in Romans says to be subject to the governing authorities. This instruction is from God - the Top Authority.

(Daniel 6.3 "Then this Daniel became distinguished above all the other presidents and the satraps, because an excellent spirit was in him; and the king planned to set Him over the whole kingdom. 4 Then the presidents and the satraps sought to find a ground for complaint against Daniel with regard to the kingdom; but they could fin no ground for complaint or any fault, because he was faithful, and no error or fault was found in him. 5 Then these men said, 'We shall not find any ground for complaint against this Daniel unless we find it in connection with the law of his God)' ".

There was a little Chicago politics going on, and Daniel ended up in the lion's den - submitting both to God and the government of his day. The crooked politicians eventually ended up there too with a different result in their misuse and perversion of authority. All worked out for a good lesson in faith and submission.

Look closely - this is how and why doctors who just happen to perform abortions get killed.

"I don't need to worry about Man's law. My authority comes from God himself through the words of the apostle Paul. I don't have to worry about the Ten Commandments either - that was old law for the Jews and Jesus fulfilled all of that by his death on the cross. I'm under grace and not under law."

It's ironic to see commentary on Chicago politics from someone who proudly serves the ultimate godfather - someone who has done (and still does) crimes that would make Capone blush.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin

Posted on: July 19, 2009 - 8:42pm #340

crazymonkie

Posts: 336

Joined: 2009-03-09

Offline

Fonzie wrote:Crazymonkie,

Fonzie wrote:

Crazymonkie, Obviously you are happy with the way you are, the way you have been, the way you will be - secure, fulfilled, at peace, full of undying and sincere love for all mankind - and I wager you don't need any more encouragement from the likes of me.

And obviously you just like to assume that you know exactly what people need (Jesus), what they want (Jesus), and what they would like (Jesus) and refuse to see past your religious blinders. The "Bible Harness" joke on the first page is dead on and you don't even realize it. You're so far distant from reality that there's a thirty-second delay between what you say and when it gets here. This is how far you are from the truth, let alone (if there is any) the Truth.

I never had any encouragement from you. Just preaching. Nonsense. Pablum. Regurgitated Middle Platonism that was out of date centuries ago, and never made much sense in the first place.

Nobody's full of 'undying and sincere love for all mankind,' ever. Love fades; love is finite. And nobody can love ALL of humanity; that's stupid. You do have to make a distinction between people who will hurt or kill you or people you *do* love, and those who won't, at the very least.

Your god cannot extend love eternally, because it does not exist. Nor, even conceptually, is your god pure love or pure forgiveness. If it was, it wouldn't have NEEDED to come to Earth to 'save' us (from itself, BTW.... nobody, and I mean NOBODY, can make sense of that idiotic conundrum), it just would forgive.

Oh, also: Martyr complex IN EFFECT, BOI!!!!

OrdinaryClay wrote:

If you don't believe your non-belief then you don't believe and you must not be an atheist.

Posted on: July 22, 2009 - 7:12am #341

Fonzie

Posts: 1152

Joined: 2008-08-31

Offline

call Guinness on that one

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
cervello_marcio wrote:
Fonzie wrote:
cervello_marcio wrote:
Actually I think he was talking about the creation story, the references to unicorns and satyrs, saying the earth was flat, contradicting itself by saying to obey the government but to have no gods before the lord (rendering Daniel a heathen and bad example for all of us), saying all sins are equal in god's eyes and then condemning blasphemers to hell (no exceptions), etc, etc, etc.
Rightly understood in the light of the truth Christ brings there is no contradiction.
Okay. I was a Baptist for 18 years but I guess I missed the boat on that one. Why don't you go ahead and explain to me how it is not contradictory.
Romans 13: "Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves...They are God's servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience."
And now from Daniel:

"6:10 Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house; and his windows being open in his chamber toward Jerusalem, he kneeled upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and gave thanks before his God, as he did aforetime.
6:11 Then these men assembled, and found Daniel praying and making supplication before his God.

6:12 Then they came near, and spake before the king concerning the king's decree; Hast thou not signed a decree, that every man that shall ask a petition of any God or man within thirty days, save of thee, O king, shall be cast into the den of lions? The king answered and said, The thing is true, according to the law of the Medes and Persians, which altereth not.

6:13 Then answered they and said before the king, That Daniel, which is of the children of the captivity of Judah, regardeth not thee, O king, nor the decree that thou hast signed, but maketh his petition three times a day."

Cervello,

There's no conflict here: The Holy Spirit in Romans says to be subject to the governing authorities. This instruction is from God - the Top Authority.

(Daniel 6.3 "Then this Daniel became distinguished above all the other presidents and the satraps, because an excellent spirit was in him; and the king planned to set Him over the whole kingdom. 4 Then the presidents and the satraps sought to find a ground for complaint against Daniel with regard to the kingdom; but they could fin no ground for complaint or any fault, because he was faithful, and no error or fault was found in him. 5 Then these men said, 'We shall not find any ground for complaint against this Daniel unless we find it in connection with the law of his God)' ".

There was a little Chicago politics going on, and Daniel ended up in the lion's den - submitting both to God and the government of his day. The crooked politicians eventually ended up there too with a different result in their misuse and perversion of authority. All worked out for a good lesson in faith and submission.

Look closely - this is how and why doctors who just happen to perform abortions get killed.
"I don't need to worry about Man's law. My authority comes from God himself through the words of the apostle Paul. I don't have to worry about the Ten Commandments either - that was old law for the Jews and Jesus fulfilled all of that by his death on the cross. I'm under grace and not under law."
It's ironic to see commentary on Chicago politics from someone who proudly serves the ultimate godfather - someone who has done (and still does) crimes that would make Capone blush.

JCGadfly,

If one let his imagination get as far off base as from here to Pluto you have lapped him several times with that mischaracterization - attributing the things of your father to The Father, The LORD of all the earth.

Posted on: July 22, 2009 - 9:40am #342

jcgadfly

Posts: 6791

Joined: 2006-07-18

Offline

Fonzie wrote:jcgadfly

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:
Fonzie wrote:
cervello_marcio wrote:
Fonzie wrote:
cervello_marcio wrote:
Actually I think he was talking about the creation story, the references to unicorns and satyrs, saying the earth was flat, contradicting itself by saying to obey the government but to have no gods before the lord (rendering Daniel a heathen and bad example for all of us), saying all sins are equal in god's eyes and then condemning blasphemers to hell (no exceptions), etc, etc, etc.
Rightly understood in the light of the truth Christ brings there is no contradiction.
Okay. I was a Baptist for 18 years but I guess I missed the boat on that one. Why don't you go ahead and explain to me how it is not contradictory.
Romans 13: "Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves...They are God's servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience."
And now from Daniel:

"6:10 Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house; and his windows being open in his chamber toward Jerusalem, he kneeled upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and gave thanks before his God, as he did aforetime.
6:11 Then these men assembled, and found Daniel praying and making supplication before his God.

6:12 Then they came near, and spake before the king concerning the king's decree; Hast thou not signed a decree, that every man that shall ask a petition of any God or man within thirty days, save of thee, O king, shall be cast into the den of lions? The king answered and said, The thing is true, according to the law of the Medes and Persians, which altereth not.

6:13 Then answered they and said before the king, That Daniel, which is of the children of the captivity of Judah, regardeth not thee, O king, nor the decree that thou hast signed, but maketh his petition three times a day."

Cervello,

There's no conflict here: The Holy Spirit in Romans says to be subject to the governing authorities. This instruction is from God - the Top Authority.

(Daniel 6.3 "Then this Daniel became distinguished above all the other presidents and the satraps, because an excellent spirit was in him; and the king planned to set Him over the whole kingdom. 4 Then the presidents and the satraps sought to find a ground for complaint against Daniel with regard to the kingdom; but they could fin no ground for complaint or any fault, because he was faithful, and no error or fault was found in him. 5 Then these men said, 'We shall not find any ground for complaint against this Daniel unless we find it in connection with the law of his God)' ".

There was a little Chicago politics going on, and Daniel ended up in the lion's den - submitting both to God and the government of his day. The crooked politicians eventually ended up there too with a different result in their misuse and perversion of authority. All worked out for a good lesson in faith and submission.

Look closely - this is how and why doctors who just happen to perform abortions get killed.
"I don't need to worry about Man's law. My authority comes from God himself through the words of the apostle Paul. I don't have to worry about the Ten Commandments either - that was old law for the Jews and Jesus fulfilled all of that by his death on the cross. I'm under grace and not under law."
It's ironic to see commentary on Chicago politics from someone who proudly serves the ultimate godfather - someone who has done (and still does) crimes that would make Capone blush.

JCGadfly,
If one let his imagination get as far off base as from here to Pluto you have lapped him several times with that mischaracterization - attributing the things of your father to The Father, The LORD of all the earth.

And yet, you deny none of it...

Just as well, you couldn't deny it anyway unless you choose to deny Romans 4.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin

Posted on: July 22, 2009 - 11:43am #343

Jeffrick

Posts: 2446

Joined: 2008-03-25

Offline

Shin Bet

Crazymonkie,

It has not been my desire to irritate you though it looks like I have - sorry for that I think I strayed from what my focus should be.

I hope you'll reconsider and retrace your steps. Fonzie that poetic B.S. you just wrote is nearly word for word what failed suicide bombers say to justify their actions; this according to Shin Bet (Israeli version of the FBI). Shin Bet has had a chance to interview hundreds of failed bombers, Most where arrested while in a wide-eye state of euphoria, uttering that same or similar nonsense while continuely pressing the trigger button on a bomb that isn't going off. They also report that it sometimes takes 3 to 4 days before the failed bomber realizes they are still alive. Funny thing is they are described has not particularly religious before they chose to become suicide bombers and they tend to go back to their previous not-too-religious state during their long prison confinements. Why don't you snap out of it before a long prison term or worse yet before you make a bomb that works. There is no heaven, no hell, no gods now get real.

"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."

VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"

If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?

Posted on: July 28, 2009 - 7:38am #344

Fonzie

Posts: 1152

Joined: 2008-08-31

Offline

jcgadfly wrote:Fonzie

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
jcgadfly wrote:
Fonzie wrote:
cervello_marcio wrote:
Fonzie wrote:
cervello_marcio wrote:
Actually I think he was talking about the creation story, the references to unicorns and satyrs, saying the earth was flat, contradicting itself by saying to obey the government but to have no gods before the lord (rendering Daniel a heathen and bad example for all of us), saying all sins are equal in god's eyes and then condemning blasphemers to hell (no exceptions), etc, etc, etc.
Rightly understood in the light of the truth Christ brings there is no contradiction.
Okay. I was a Baptist for 18 years but I guess I missed the boat on that one. Why don't you go ahead and explain to me how it is not contradictory.
Romans 13: "Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves...They are God's servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience."
And now from Daniel:

"6:10 Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house; and his windows being open in his chamber toward Jerusalem, he kneeled upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and gave thanks before his God, as he did aforetime.
6:11 Then these men assembled, and found Daniel praying and making supplication before his God.

6:12 Then they came near, and spake before the king concerning the king's decree; Hast thou not signed a decree, that every man that shall ask a petition of any God or man within thirty days, save of thee, O king, shall be cast into the den of lions? The king answered and said, The thing is true, according to the law of the Medes and Persians, which altereth not.

6:13 Then answered they and said before the king, That Daniel, which is of the children of the captivity of Judah, regardeth not thee, O king, nor the decree that thou hast signed, but maketh his petition three times a day."

Cervello,

There's no conflict here: The Holy Spirit in Romans says to be subject to the governing authorities. This instruction is from God - the Top Authority.

(Daniel 6.3 "Then this Daniel became distinguished above all the other presidents and the satraps, because an excellent spirit was in him; and the king planned to set Him over the whole kingdom. 4 Then the presidents and the satraps sought to find a ground for complaint against Daniel with regard to the kingdom; but they could fin no ground for complaint or any fault, because he was faithful, and no error or fault was found in him. 5 Then these men said, 'We shall not find any ground for complaint against this Daniel unless we find it in connection with the law of his God)' ".

There was a little Chicago politics going on, and Daniel ended up in the lion's den - submitting both to God and the government of his day. The crooked politicians eventually ended up there too with a different result in their misuse and perversion of authority. All worked out for a good lesson in faith and submission.

Look closely - this is how and why doctors who just happen to perform abortions get killed.
"I don't need to worry about Man's law. My authority comes from God himself through the words of the apostle Paul. I don't have to worry about the Ten Commandments either - that was old law for the Jews and Jesus fulfilled all of that by his death on the cross. I'm under grace and not under law."
It's ironic to see commentary on Chicago politics from someone who proudly serves the ultimate godfather - someone who has done (and still does) crimes that would make Capone blush.

JCGadfly,
If one let his imagination get as far off base as from here to Pluto you have lapped him several times with that mischaracterization - attributing the things of your father to The Father, The LORD of all the earth.

And yet, you deny none of it...
Just as well, you couldn't deny it anyway unless you choose to deny Romans 4.

JCGadfly,

I can't understand why anyone would want to deny Romans 4. You have a problem you can't solve yourself. God offers the solution as a gift. You refuse. That makes sense to who else but your father the Devil so he can keep you enslaved to the despair in your spirit because you are not in fellowship with the God Who made you and Jesus Who died for you. You are eternally linked to your unfulfilled spirit-self. You didn't make yourself and you can't be fulfilled in yourself.

Posted on: July 28, 2009 - 7:43am #345

Fonzie

Posts: 1152

Joined: 2008-08-31

Offline

Jeffrick

Jeffrick wrote:

Crazymonkie,

Friend, I am your friend trying to tell you that Jesus died for your sins. But Jesus is your Friend of Friends - whether you know it or not, He is the best Friend you can have. When I found Christ there were guys that were my friend though I wasn't a friend to them.

It has not been my desire to irritate you though it looks like I have - sorry for that I think I strayed from what my focus should be.
My position is this: Christ and Him crucified. Believe in Christ and live. He came to earth 100% man and 100% God, lived a perfect life, didn't have to die, but died for our sins - paid the price of our debt before God.
All my hope and trust and life and peace are in Jesus. I have done nothing at all concerning my salvation or justification before God - Jesus and God have done it all. Now Jesus and God and the Holy Spirit live in me. I see it clearly with the eyes of faith. With the eyes of faith I can see beyond death - which holds no dread for me. I can look back with no regret - Jesus has resolved all regrets. I can live fully in the moment and experience Christ in the moment with no distractions past present or future. This is a great redemption I am trying to share with you - not trying to make you mad or force it on you. I understand that my salvation and the state of peace through the grace of GBod in Christ is not at all my work but a gift - thus what I am saying - none of my salvation is dependent on getting you to accept Christ. I am only trying to share something that's too great to describe.
I hope you'll reconsider and retrace your steps. Fonzie that poetic B.S. you just wrote is nearly word for word what failed suicide bombers say to justify their actions; this according to Shin Bet (Israeli version of the FBI). Shin Bet has had a chance to interview hundreds of failed bombers, Most where arrested while in a wide-eye state of euphoria, uttering that same or similar nonsense while continuely pressing the trigger button on a bomb that isn't going off. They also report that it sometimes takes 3 to 4 days before the failed bomber realizes they are still alive. Funny thing is they are described has not particularly religious before they chose to become suicide bombers and they tend to go back to their previous not-too-religious state during their long prison confinements. Why don't you snap out of it before a long prison term or worse yet before you make a bomb that works. There is no heaven, no hell, no gods now get real.

Jeffrick,

The attitude you have is that of those who crucified the very Son of God. I'm not at all concerned or surprised at your evaluation of me - in fact I am glad I'm not esteemed by you considering your view of Jesus.

Posted on: July 28, 2009 - 10:04am #346

jcgadfly

Posts: 6791

Joined: 2006-07-18

Offline

Fonzie wrote:jcgadfly

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:
Fonzie wrote:
jcgadfly wrote:
Fonzie wrote:
cervello_marcio wrote:
Fonzie wrote:
cervello_marcio wrote:
Actually I think he was talking about the creation story, the references to unicorns and satyrs, saying the earth was flat, contradicting itself by saying to obey the government but to have no gods before the lord (rendering Daniel a heathen and bad example for all of us), saying all sins are equal in god's eyes and then condemning blasphemers to hell (no exceptions), etc, etc, etc.
Rightly understood in the light of the truth Christ brings there is no contradiction.
Okay. I was a Baptist for 18 years but I guess I missed the boat on that one. Why don't you go ahead and explain to me how it is not contradictory.
Romans 13: "Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves...They are God's servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience."
And now from Daniel:

"6:10 Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house; and his windows being open in his chamber toward Jerusalem, he kneeled upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and gave thanks before his God, as he did aforetime.
6:11 Then these men assembled, and found Daniel praying and making supplication before his God.

6:12 Then they came near, and spake before the king concerning the king's decree; Hast thou not signed a decree, that every man that shall ask a petition of any God or man within thirty days, save of thee, O king, shall be cast into the den of lions? The king answered and said, The thing is true, according to the law of the Medes and Persians, which altereth not.

6:13 Then answered they and said before the king, That Daniel, which is of the children of the captivity of Judah, regardeth not thee, O king, nor the decree that thou hast signed, but maketh his petition three times a day."

Cervello,

There's no conflict here: The Holy Spirit in Romans says to be subject to the governing authorities. This instruction is from God - the Top Authority.

(Daniel 6.3 "Then this Daniel became distinguished above all the other presidents and the satraps, because an excellent spirit was in him; and the king planned to set Him over the whole kingdom. 4 Then the presidents and the satraps sought to find a ground for complaint against Daniel with regard to the kingdom; but they could fin no ground for complaint or any fault, because he was faithful, and no error or fault was found in him. 5 Then these men said, 'We shall not find any ground for complaint against this Daniel unless we find it in connection with the law of his God)' ".

There was a little Chicago politics going on, and Daniel ended up in the lion's den - submitting both to God and the government of his day. The crooked politicians eventually ended up there too with a different result in their misuse and perversion of authority. All worked out for a good lesson in faith and submission.

Look closely - this is how and why doctors who just happen to perform abortions get killed.
"I don't need to worry about Man's law. My authority comes from God himself through the words of the apostle Paul. I don't have to worry about the Ten Commandments either - that was old law for the Jews and Jesus fulfilled all of that by his death on the cross. I'm under grace and not under law."
It's ironic to see commentary on Chicago politics from someone who proudly serves the ultimate godfather - someone who has done (and still does) crimes that would make Capone blush.

JCGadfly,
If one let his imagination get as far off base as from here to Pluto you have lapped him several times with that mischaracterization - attributing the things of your father to The Father, The LORD of all the earth.

And yet, you deny none of it...
Just as well, you couldn't deny it anyway unless you choose to deny Romans 4.

JCGadfly,

I can't understand why anyone would want to deny Romans 4. You have a problem you can't solve yourself. God offers the solution as a gift. You refuse. That makes sense to who else but your father the Devil so he can keep you enslaved to the despair in your spirit because you are not in fellowship with the God Who made you and Jesus Who died for you. You are eternally linked to your unfulfilled spirit-self. You didn't make yourself and you can't be fulfilled in yourself.

I can't understand why you'd want to deny Romans 4 either - it's your license to do whatever you want to as Paul defined sin out of existence in that chapter.

Why pay attention to the laws of God and man when you don't really have to?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin

Posted on: July 28, 2009 - 10:06am #347

jcgadfly

Posts: 6791

Joined: 2006-07-18

Offline

Fonzie wrote:Jeffrick

Fonzie wrote:

Jeffrick wrote:

Crazymonkie,

Friend, I am your friend trying to tell you that Jesus died for your sins. But Jesus is your Friend of Friends - whether you know it or not, He is the best Friend you can have. When I found Christ there were guys that were my friend though I wasn't a friend to them.

It has not been my desire to irritate you though it looks like I have - sorry for that I think I strayed from what my focus should be.
My position is this: Christ and Him crucified. Believe in Christ and live. He came to earth 100% man and 100% God, lived a perfect life, didn't have to die, but died for our sins - paid the price of our debt before God.
All my hope and trust and life and peace are in Jesus. I have done nothing at all concerning my salvation or justification before God - Jesus and God have done it all. Now Jesus and God and the Holy Spirit live in me. I see it clearly with the eyes of faith. With the eyes of faith I can see beyond death - which holds no dread for me. I can look back with no regret - Jesus has resolved all regrets. I can live fully in the moment and experience Christ in the moment with no distractions past present or future. This is a great redemption I am trying to share with you - not trying to make you mad or force it on you. I understand that my salvation and the state of peace through the grace of GBod in Christ is not at all my work but a gift - thus what I am saying - none of my salvation is dependent on getting you to accept Christ. I am only trying to share something that's too great to describe.
I hope you'll reconsider and retrace your steps. Fonzie that poetic B.S. you just wrote is nearly word for word what failed suicide bombers say to justify their actions; this according to Shin Bet (Israeli version of the FBI). Shin Bet has had a chance to interview hundreds of failed bombers, Most where arrested while in a wide-eye state of euphoria, uttering that same or similar nonsense while continuely pressing the trigger button on a bomb that isn't going off. They also report that it sometimes takes 3 to 4 days before the failed bomber realizes they are still alive. Funny thing is they are described has not particularly religious before they chose to become suicide bombers and they tend to go back to their previous not-too-religious state during their long prison confinements. Why don't you snap out of it before a long prison term or worse yet before you make a bomb that works. There is no heaven, no hell, no gods now get real.

Jeffrick,

The guys who sert the plan in motion to kill Jesus were doing God's will as they knew it - they were removing a heretical cult leader. The Romans who actually did the deed didn't care about any of the religious crap.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin

Posted on: August 8, 2009 - 4:36pm #348

Fonzie

Posts: 1152

Joined: 2008-08-31

Offline

IT'S NOT SPORT JC

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
jcgadfly wrote:
Fonzie wrote:
jcgadfly wrote:
Fonzie wrote:
cervello_marcio wrote:
Fonzie wrote:
cervello_marcio wrote:
Actually I think he was talking about the creation story, the references to unicorns and satyrs, saying the earth was flat, contradicting itself by saying to obey the government but to have no gods before the lord (rendering Daniel a heathen and bad example for all of us), saying all sins are equal in god's eyes and then condemning blasphemers to hell (no exceptions), etc, etc, etc.
Rightly understood in the light of the truth Christ brings there is no contradiction.
Okay. I was a Baptist for 18 years but I guess I missed the boat on that one. Why don't you go ahead and explain to me how it is not contradictory.
Romans 13: "Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves...They are God's servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience."
And now from Daniel:

"6:10 Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house; and his windows being open in his chamber toward Jerusalem, he kneeled upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and gave thanks before his God, as he did aforetime.
6:11 Then these men assembled, and found Daniel praying and making supplication before his God.

6:12 Then they came near, and spake before the king concerning the king's decree; Hast thou not signed a decree, that every man that shall ask a petition of any God or man within thirty days, save of thee, O king, shall be cast into the den of lions? The king answered and said, The thing is true, according to the law of the Medes and Persians, which altereth not.

6:13 Then answered they and said before the king, That Daniel, which is of the children of the captivity of Judah, regardeth not thee, O king, nor the decree that thou hast signed, but maketh his petition three times a day."

Cervello,

There's no conflict here: The Holy Spirit in Romans says to be subject to the governing authorities. This instruction is from God - the Top Authority.

(Daniel 6.3 "Then this Daniel became distinguished above all the other presidents and the satraps, because an excellent spirit was in him; and the king planned to set Him over the whole kingdom. 4 Then the presidents and the satraps sought to find a ground for complaint against Daniel with regard to the kingdom; but they could fin no ground for complaint or any fault, because he was faithful, and no error or fault was found in him. 5 Then these men said, 'We shall not find any ground for complaint against this Daniel unless we find it in connection with the law of his God)' ".

There was a little Chicago politics going on, and Daniel ended up in the lion's den - submitting both to God and the government of his day. The crooked politicians eventually ended up there too with a different result in their misuse and perversion of authority. All worked out for a good lesson in faith and submission.

Look closely - this is how and why doctors who just happen to perform abortions get killed.
"I don't need to worry about Man's law. My authority comes from God himself through the words of the apostle Paul. I don't have to worry about the Ten Commandments either - that was old law for the Jews and Jesus fulfilled all of that by his death on the cross. I'm under grace and not under law."
It's ironic to see commentary on Chicago politics from someone who proudly serves the ultimate godfather - someone who has done (and still does) crimes that would make Capone blush.

JCGadfly,
If one let his imagination get as far off base as from here to Pluto you have lapped him several times with that mischaracterization - attributing the things of your father to The Father, The LORD of all the earth.

And yet, you deny none of it...
Just as well, you couldn't deny it anyway unless you choose to deny Romans 4.

JCGadfly,

I can't understand why anyone would want to deny Romans 4. You have a problem you can't solve yourself. God offers the solution as a gift. You refuse. That makes sense to who else but your father the Devil so he can keep you enslaved to the despair in your spirit because you are not in fellowship with the God Who made you and Jesus Who died for you. You are eternally linked to your unfulfilled spirit-self. You didn't make yourself and you can't be fulfilled in yourself.

I can't understand why you'd want to deny Romans 4 either - it's your license to do whatever you want to as Paul defined sin out of existence in that chapter.
Why pay attention to the laws of God and man when you don't really have to?

There is a freedom in Christ you are right - but it's not freedom to sin. Sin is not a desire of those who love Christ. You might nog realize that those who have been born again and have been given a new heart - hate sin. It is like sport to a fool to sin, but it is a pleasure to do what Christ wants to those who love Him.

Posted on: August 8, 2009 - 4:34pm #349

Fonzie

Posts: 1152

Joined: 2008-08-31

Offline

jcgadfly wrote:Fonzie

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
Jeffrick wrote:

Crazymonkie,

Friend, I am your friend trying to tell you that Jesus died for your sins. But Jesus is your Friend of Friends - whether you know it or not, He is the best Friend you can have. When I found Christ there were guys that were my friend though I wasn't a friend to them.

It has not been my desire to irritate you though it looks like I have - sorry for that I think I strayed from what my focus should be.
My position is this: Christ and Him crucified. Believe in Christ and live. He came to earth 100% man and 100% God, lived a perfect life, didn't have to die, but died for our sins - paid the price of our debt before God.
All my hope and trust and life and peace are in Jesus. I have done nothing at all concerning my salvation or justification before God - Jesus and God have done it all. Now Jesus and God and the Holy Spirit live in me. I see it clearly with the eyes of faith. With the eyes of faith I can see beyond death - which holds no dread for me. I can look back with no regret - Jesus has resolved all regrets. I can live fully in the moment and experience Christ in the moment with no distractions past present or future. This is a great redemption I am trying to share with you - not trying to make you mad or force it on you. I understand that my salvation and the state of peace through the grace of GBod in Christ is not at all my work but a gift - thus what I am saying - none of my salvation is dependent on getting you to accept Christ. I am only trying to share something that's too great to describe.
I hope you'll reconsider and retrace your steps. Fonzie that poetic B.S. you just wrote is nearly word for word what failed suicide bombers say to justify their actions; this according to Shin Bet (Israeli version of the FBI). Shin Bet has had a chance to interview hundreds of failed bombers, Most where arrested while in a wide-eye state of euphoria, uttering that same or similar nonsense while continuely pressing the trigger button on a bomb that isn't going off. They also report that it sometimes takes 3 to 4 days before the failed bomber realizes they are still alive. Funny thing is they are described has not particularly religious before they chose to become suicide bombers and they tend to go back to their previous not-too-religious state during their long prison confinements. Why don't you snap out of it before a long prison term or worse yet before you make a bomb that works. There is no heaven, no hell, no gods now get real.

Jeffrick,

The attitude you have is that of those who crucified the very Son of God. I'm not at all concerned or surprised at your evaluation of me - in fact I am glad I'm not esteemed by you considering your view of Jesus.

Fonzie wrote:

It was the will of God for Jesus to die for our sins. Now it is the will of God for us to be forgiven through that atoning death.

Posted on: August 8, 2009 - 6:26pm #350

cervello_marcio

Posts: 210

Joined: 2009-05-19

Offline

Fonzie

Fonzie wrote:

Cervello,

There's no conflict here: The Holy Spirit in Romans says to be subject to the governing authorities. This instruction is from God - the Top Authority.

(Daniel 6.3 "Then this Daniel became distinguished above all the other presidents and the satraps, because an excellent spirit was in him; and the king planned to set Him over the whole kingdom. 4 Then the presidents and the satraps sought to find a ground for complaint against Daniel with regard to the kingdom; but they could fin no ground for complaint or any fault, because he was faithful, and no error or fault was found in him. 5 Then these men said, 'We shall not find any ground for complaint against this Daniel unless we find it in connection with the law of his God)' ".

There was a little Chicago politics going on, and Daniel ended up in the lion's den - submitting both to God and the government of his day. The crooked politicians eventually ended up there too with a different result in their misuse and perversion of authority. All worked out for a good lesson in faith and submission.

dude, reading comprehension. he was still disobeying the govt, meaning he was disobeying god. thus, contradiction.