It works for me!
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Faith in Jesus works for me - it's exciting. I love the Bible and believe all of it - though there is mystery. There is mystery everywhere though, right? I am a incredibly happy believer in Jesus. I'm not a theologian, I just believe in Jesus.
I understand you can't make anybody believe in Jesus and the Bible, and I don't personally try to do that. But I highly recommend it from my experience with it. I can't get enough of the Bible or Jesus. I can't imagine trying to navigate through life without it at this point in my life.
I don't think Jesus or God is a thing you can prove to somebody. I heard about it a large percentage of my life and it didn't mean anything to me until a certain point - then that all changed.
So do you guys think that I'm fooling myself, not really happy, you don't believe me, or do you really think I can't be as happy or enlightened as you - are you evangelistic in that sense or what? What is the purpose of this site? Do you have something better to offer? If so, what is your gospel?
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I'm always amazed at that whole "I'll send myself down so they can kill me and I can forgive them for breaking rules I made up in the first place" business.
I'm sure I don't understand it because my eyes are closed to it, or something.
Eden had a 25% murder rate and incest was rampant.
And where exactly did this come from?
You too.
And may someone think for you, since you're unwilling to think for yourself.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Angela,
I appreciate your post and agree with it. Jesus has saved my life too.
The Lord is mighty to save. If these on this forum were turned by the LORD to believe in Jesus they would make great proclaimers of the gospel.
The passionate rejection unique to the gospel Is actually more proof of its authenticity. They are rejecting Christ and God - thus, contempt for the messenger.
A phenomenon on earth is calling light dark and darkness light - embracing eternal enemies, rejecting eternal friends.
Sin has antiseptic causing the slave to think he is free, the poor to think he is rich, the sick to think he is well, the naked to think he is clothed.
To escape its hold on the heart is a miracle surgery done by the knife of the Spirit of God. The patients who won't admit they are sick won't allow it. The elect will respond to Christ "lifted up". Those who reject will be lost. Their blood is on themselves. What a price to pay for pride.
Pablotar,
God is both just and merciful. He wanted to forgive our debt but justice had to be satisfied. Jesus willingly offered Himself as the price for our atonement. Jesus became sin for not only us but the sin of the whole world for all time. All sin of all time was focused on Him. In seeing what our sin did to Him we hate sin and determine to fight and forsake it.
When He died for our sins God was pleased to raise Him from the dead, destroying Death for all who believe in Him and are born into Him by dying with Him in baptism and rising up by the same power that raised Jesus to walk a new life - a life led by the Spirit rather than the flesh.
This new state of life in Christ is a state of war. The man reborn in Christ is two men. There is the new life in Christ and the old man of flesh is also still present. The power of sin however has been dealt a death blow by Christ. With Christ as our Commander and our new nature on the throne in our hearts we fight our war against our old man of the flesh and put sin to death through the power of God in Christ. We will have to fight all the way to death and may arrive at heaven on a board of the ship.
The thing to focus on is Who Jesus is. Is He the Christ, the Son of God, born of a virgin, Who died for our sins and rose from the dead or an imposter. Jesus is called the "door". We enter eternal life through Him. The whole of Scripture depends on the answer to this question. If you honestly seek the answer and ask God to reveal it to you He will. Never will it be said that a man cried out to Christ to be saved and Christ couldn't save him. Think what a dishonor that would be to God - that He couldn't save. If you seek Him you will find Him.
The problem is not a matter of understanding something difficult. It is more a matter of the heart and humility before God. Man wants to "do it himself". It is hard for man to accept salvation as totally the work of God in the Atoning Death of Christ. But if you want it - God is anxious to give salvation to you in Christ. The Holy Spirit will guide you through it if you have a willing heart. You can live the rest of your life and all eternity in the presence of and in fellowship with God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit and God's people, the church, the Body of Christ.
Faith in Christ has great transforming power. If Jesus said it - it is true. It ends all doubts and questionings and speculations of man.
I will pray for you too, pablotar.
Focus on who Jesus is? No problem.
He's your perpetual "get out of Hell free" card.
You commit sin -> you ask forgiveness -> you're good to go.
Lather, rinse, repeat.
Why is it that the ones who callously disregard divine consequences accuse atheists of ignoring them?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
I'll just respond to the bits of crazy I think I can reply to.
Actually, no. Neither your first point, nor the second, which doesn't follow from the first, are true. The first half is not unique to Christianity, at all. Even a ridiculously cursory glance of the history of philosophy or mythology will illustrate that rejection of ANY new religion is a commonplace occurrence. The degree to which it happened to early Christianity had much more to do with the fact that they refused to pay homage to the Roman genius (older, technical term, not 'really smart'), which even the essentially monotheistic Stoics had the good sense to do, and thus, were seen as potential threats to the Roman state. So boo hoo, your cult got whacked a bit harder than usual because you didn't play the Romans' game.
Your second point is an unabashed appeal to authority, thus a logical fallacy, and thus, invalid.
Right- but where does sin come from? If you say 'from the Fall', who set up the situation where human beings *could* fail? Who created the serpent and let it loose, knowing (remember- omnipotent) 100% for sure, that it would tempt human beings, and knowing that there was no 'second chance'- one bite, and that was it. And yes, it was one bite, I'm not exaggerating.
Now, if you say 'that's the devil,' okay, I'll grant you that. But that poses another problem, a really big one: If god is so all-powerful and all-knowing and all good, why is evil still here? We can't imagine, let alone create, a world where we would have free will and yet not sin. But god could (with god all things are possible.) Hence, god, if not the originator of evil, is the perpetuator and sustainer of evil. Your god is an ass.
And when it comes to 'the elect:' This brings up all sorts of questions about 'hardening of hearts' (no, no, not like a heart attack, yeesh) and culpability for sins. If god fore-ordains everyone from the beginning, that means nobody's morally culpable for anything; we only have the illusion of free will and choice. It also means that god is a sadist, because he's punishing people, eternally, for something that took, at most, 120 years (assuming somehow we could all live to be that old, and start sinning REALLY early.) And if those who 'do good' are really just being god's little robots (they can't be otherwise, in a universe with 'the elect') then nobody deserves eternal rewards either. If you truly believe in 'the elect,' then... wow...
Also: This is easily the most artful dodge I've ever seen on these forums (I've done quite a bit of lurking). This is too bad to be true- Fonzie managed to totally avoid all the previous points and make new, and totally inane, comments. Maybe I need clearance from the inner circle of high ranking diplomats here, but I'm calling 'Poe.'
That's funny, because numerous religions make this same claim. Clearly, rejection is not unique to mainstream Christianity. All individuals that have heard of a religion, that don't believe in the religion, effectively "reject" it. Not to mention, there is probably stronger opposition to Islam at this point than Christianity.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
I know it's tempting, but, it's pretty bleak.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
Dammit.
Yeah, this has been running far too long for that. I'm not even sure there were Poe's wandering the net when this conversation first started.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Amazing.
Amazing waste of time.
"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray
Jill!
Where the eff you been!?
Missed ya!
"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray
Is it really that easy - "lather, rinse, repeat?"
If the bride is unfaithful to her vows you are saying it's easy for the husband to forgive and the bride to come back - while planning another tryst?
You wouldn't say this is easy if you loved God. I also think if you knew God you would.
I don't know anything about this.
The "dodging" may be closer to home.
What if you determined never to eat until you learned everything happening in digestion - when and where it happens and how.... What I am suggesting is for the hungry to come buy wine and bread without price and ....eat - really you don't usually have to school the hungry on eating.
Listen to Jesus and the gospel (see the bread and wine), think about it (chew), meditate on it (break it down into usable nutrients), apply it (make it a part of yourself). Nobody can steal yesterday's lunch from you. If you will try it you will find it is manna from heaven my friend.
On the question of "election" - you and your friends on this forum put a lot of stock in your "freedom to choose" your God (or lack of) - why do you have trouble with God having free will to choose His Own Bride (the church)?
On the subject of "why does evil exist?" First of all I don't know the answer to that mystery - my God (the God Who spoke the heavens and earth into existence) is far above me and so are His thoughts - so I can only speculate.
First, Jesus has dealt a death blow to sin and the Devil and - those who are "born again", "born from above", "born of the water and the Spirit", "baptized into Christ and into His Death", those "in Christ", "His body - He being Head" - discover they have the power "in Christ" (it's Christ's power and strength) to conquer each our own sinful nature and be ruled by the "new nature" (however, though we are justified before God the war continues until death). We metaphorically "take the promised land" in ourselves under the leadership of our Commander.
(This is still in answer to your question "why is there still evil" - my speculation on the why), continuing: the exercise of our faith is thus an ongoing thing, and I would speculate we are being prepared for the place you mentioned (a place without evil). If we were placed there without being prepared for it we might not appreciate it any more than the welfare state appreciates tax payers. I would also throw in the theory that Louis L'amour has - that having an enemy is good for us - it builds character.
As to who created the Serpent - again, the revelation on this is pretty foggy but there is some indication that Satan was an angel that sinned and got thrown out of heaven. There doesn't seem to be any indication of forgiveness being available for angels who sin (speculating on....I would venture angels have more responsibility?). Maybe this shows what could happen if you went to heaven unprepared?
The Devil goes around deceiving people and getting them enslaved in sin, making them think he doesn't exist, etc, but I would speculate that the Scriptures indicate that in the end he deceives himself - thinking he and his bunch can whip God. It's a gnat against a bazooka.
I don't think I've dodged any of your questions. The Bible - which I believe totally, completely, thoroughly, I love it, all of it - says that God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit had the plan of salvation - through Christ - planned and ready before the world was created.
Jesus was willing, God took the initiative and sent Him, His only begotten Son to become sin for us, to become the Lamb of God, God's Passover Lamb. And it was all designed to glorify God Who deserves all Glory. Man can't in any way save himself - however God desires to save man with more desire than withholding the price of that salvation - the torturous death of His Son, all sin being focused on His Son. God is truly in His element when He forgives sin - He loves to forgive totally. But man must forsake his sin and follow God. After being saved by the death of Christ it is easy to hate sin. We still fall but we recognize it and admit it, acknowledge it and get up and try again. God is merciful and will continue to "wash our feet" (maintenance cleansing as opposed to the initial total cleansing).
God has given man the smarts and spiritual ability to discover this and if humble give up on being his own God and come to Him and Christ and be saved. This works for me and it will work without fail for every man who calls upon the Lord to save him.
I didn't say anything of the kind. The Bible, however, says that forgiveness is unconditional and infinite. At least if you deal with the words of Jesus and Paul.
Hosea is a good OT example of that example you describe.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
JC gadfly,
Would you explain what you mean by this? I'm drawing a blank.
tx
Fonzie
Certainly.
As a good modern Christian, you know that Paul of Tarsus (the guy who laid the foundations for your faith) pretty much live as you want to because Paul told believers in Jesus that there is no such thing as sin because sin comes from the law and they're no longer under the law (Romans 4).
I usually here this as "Christians aren't under the commandments because Jesus came and paid the price."
So you guys can live as you will because either you have continual forgiveness (1 John 2:1) or there is no such thing as sin for you (Romans 4).
If the commandments still have any force (as they should if God wrote them, you disregard them because of what is in 1 John and Romans. At the same time, you tell non-believers that they're going to hell for ignoring those precepts you disregard.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Not quite fair, there, gadfly. Jesus instructed his followers to "love your neighbor as yourself." That does not translate to "Live however you want to." Assuming people followed that command to love their neighbor, that would pretty much take care of all the OT commandments.
This is why I brought up Paul. Paul's version of Christianity is the one most Christians go by and has precious little to do with Jesus except in the appropriation of the name.
Everything after the Gospels (except James) pretty much takes out the loving one another and doing good that Jesus talked about in the Gospels. It went from being a religion of loving and helping others to a "just believe that Jesus was the Son of God and he died for your sins and rose again to take you with him" religion. No real effort at a moral life required.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Actually, no. Neither your first point, nor the second, which doesn't follow from the first, are true. The first half is not unique to Christianity, at all. Even a ridiculously cursory glance of the history of philosophy or mythology will illustrate that rejection of ANY new religion is a commonplace occurrence. The degree to which it happened to early Christianity had much more to do with the fact that they refused to pay homage to the Roman genius (older, technical term, not 'really smart'), which even the essentially monotheistic Stoics had the good sense to do, and thus, were seen as potential threats to the Roman state. So boo hoo, your cult got whacked a bit harder than usual because you didn't play the Romans' game.
I don't know anything about this.
Precisely the problem. You are basing your philosophical system on something you don't understand, and which you claim is real, but is not. Now, in most circumstances, when someone finds out they believe something untrue, they stop believing it. Paradoxically, religious people try to do mental gymnastics to work around this undeniable falsehood in an attempt to keep what they 'know' is right despite all evidence (actual evidence- not apologist-style 'evidence') to the contrary.
No kidding. The dodge continues.
Bullshit example. We don't need to know how we digest, intellectually, to do it. Our bodies do it. We're born with the capacity unless something really horribly bad happened to us or we weren't born with the capability (very rarely; such people always die very young).
By comparison- how long does it take one to know, intellectually, the 'true' religion? Or even just any Christianity? What about god-concepts?
We are NOT born with these things already known. This is not a priori knowledge. It must be taught, it must be learned.
Try another analogy.
See- the biggest problem with that is that some of us (myself included) looked at what it was and thought: It's nothing special. Almost every single moral point Jesus made was already extant in Greek and Roman moral codes. Even his 'dying for our sins' schtick wasn't new- and early Christianity tried its level best to make parallels with the many virgin-birthed, dead-and-dying demigods the cultures from which they came already had.
And this is just assuming Jesus *was* a historical figure to begin with, and thinking of him as a human being whose followers had accreted mythology onto him. There isn't even enough solid evidence for that, though. Here's what you 'believers' have: Tacitus, Suetonius, Pliny the Younger and Josephus. The first three (even assuming they aren't interpolations, which is possible- highly probable in the case of Tacitus) only talk about *Christians.*
The last has been debunked so many times it's a laugh riot whenever a Christian apologist such as yourself thinks of the Testimonium as 'evidence.' In any case, NONE of these were even alive during the time of Jesus- which is funny, considering that Philo, among others, WAS alive at the time and place, and said nothing. If Philo had, the Christian church would have saved his work and copied it like crazy. That they didn't says there was never anything there. Your Jesus is a man of straw.
Dodging the issue. The point is this: If there is an elect, god is unjust. Why? Because if god has pre-ordained a certain number of humans before birth, or even before time, to be punished, and others to get rewards, that means the rewards and punishments are utterly arbitrary and meaningless. Also, 'free will' or even just the will to choose, is an illusion at best.
It also means that god is punishing people for HIS CHOICES! Perhaps you're not getting just how unjust this is. And perhaps you're not seeing how a god like this is not worthy of worship, regardless of how much in charge he may be.
'Mystery of god- STFU!' I LOVE that answer.
Uh huh. What about those who think the entire narration is nonsense?
Like, for instance, that god goes to earth- something that never happens in Judaism (hence 'the one true god' wouldn't ever do it in the first place) to fix his own screw-ups and make things 'right' where, if he'd just done what Judaism said he did in the first place (NOT demand moral perfection of humanity) it never would have happened.
If you start thinking about it, all this Jesus business just doesn't add up.
But if we human beings are based in evil- which we are- and if even faith in Jesus doesn't improve us- which it doesn't (please refer to any rotten Christian you've met; I can guarantee you've met lots)- then how does that prepare us for anything? It just seems more like god is being arbitrary than anything else.
Or god, being infintely powerful and knowledgable, might be able to change our very beings to the point that we could have true free will yet not sin. That he hasn't is a sign of malignancy, incompetence or indifference.
Actually, no, 'Satan' was pretty clearly a Christian concotion. And the Serpent wasn't necessarily Satan.
And ANYWAY- GOD CREATED THE SERPENT. Fuck, man, how hard is it for you to just say 'god did it' when it's clear god did it!?!?!
Total side issue, but angels CAN'T sin. They were created to be utterly devoted to the worship and will of god. It's as impossible for angels to sin as it is for mammals to breathe underwater.
Then why does god allow it to happen? If Satan's such a bad guy and decieves and leads people astray- that also means that god is allowing this to happen; meaning, he's allowing Satan to bring people into sin, and god is judging people based upon these sins, and somehow this is justice? I don't care about the relative power of the beings- that god does nothing, or very little, reflects very poorly on god's character.
And here's another place where it doesn't make sense- god didn't 'send' him- he went himself. And he did it to fix his own mistakes- at least according to Christian doctrine.
According to Judaism, which, again, Christians pay lip service to but don't really believe, god doesn't ask for perfection- only that one tries the best they can to live by the Law. Well- some believe that the Law was for all people (pre-Diaspora; post-Diaspora the Jews settled down quite a bit) but NONE believed god demanded perfection.
Yes, I know, Christians look to the failure of Moses to see the Promised Land and say "Ah hah! See, we're right!" But that was MOSES! He was god's go-to-guy. If he failed, he had much farther to fall- and Jews will look at his failure as a metaphor for how greater a responsibility the Jews have to god than the Gentiles do.
God *demands* the glory. He tends to get pissed off at someone who doesn't give him the correct amount of 'his' due. Based on his supposed acts, though, I am not impressed. Particularly with the pathetic dispersion of the 'good news' to 'all corners of the earth' (IE- parts of the Roman empire that had roads). That it took almost four hundred years to get the 'right' doctrine; then many centuries later, people 'discovered' the 'true religion', which got wiped out by the Catholic Church; then hundreds of years after THAT, others discovered the 'really, seriously true religion and I MEAN IT this time'..... how can I be impressed with a god whose followers can't even get the points of their doctrine together? Who can't even agree on what 'god' wants yet still believe in the same god? Just what sort of multi-omni god is this anyway?
'Man' (try 'human', it's less sexist) doesn't NEED to be saved. Well, not from 'sin.' From god, maybe. God is terrifying.
Aw gee, how nice of him. I didn't ask, and again, nobody needs it.
Then why send Jesus at all? Why not just drop the impossible standards and forgive when forgiveness is waranted?
Your god is precisely the kind of god who I would NOT want running things- arrogant with impossibly high standards, sanctimonious, arbitrary (sending to permanent torment millions of people, some of whom led extraordinary and moral lives based on who does or doesn't believe in Jesus as god), and one whose idea of 'correction' involves ETERNAL torture.
No, what you're describing there is sanctimoniousness. Despite the Christian cry of "I am a sinner!" the egotism and arrogance of the philosophy shows through. As is the case with this quote: You're no better morally than anyone else, but you *think* you are because you say you're 'saved' by Jesus- your god who went to earth to fix the mistakes with his own impossible moral code.
We human beings also have the brains to realize when things don't make sense logically. If god wanted everyone saved, he wouldn't have made the story so senseless, and god wouldn't have entrusted the re-telling of the story to fallible human beings. Clearly this is the case, so what does this say about your god? That he's incompetent, indifferent or malignant, basically. If god was in the picture, human failings should have been minimized, yet this was not the case; we see about the same level of human error as in any other philosophy- and changes, many, despite the claims of god not changing.
Also: If god is going to condemn me to an eternity of torture just because I can see that his story and what he does does not make sense, then so be it. I'll gladly go to hell cursing his name- and with good reason. Your god is a twit. Or he's cruel. Or he doesn't care.