Why isn’t logic a subject in schools ?

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Why isn’t logic a subject in schools ?

 

Why isn’t logic a subject  in schools ? It’s a interesting question so please give me your opinion.

Warning I’m not a native English speaker.

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It's a sad but simple

It's a sad but simple reality that school boards are just as democratic as governments, and curriculums are therefore as jumpy as budgets. The result is that the majority decides what to teach, and when, and how. The majority does not utilize logic on a recurring and daily basis, so the majority doesn't think it's a priority. I suspect there is also a minority within the majority which is aware of how much they would be crippled by such a course offered to the young, and does whatever it can to ensure it doesn't happen. This minority would be made up of primarily advertisers and religious institutions: Those with the most to lose in the face of a well educated populace.

 

Edit: I just realized my first line could be seen as a blasting of democracy, which wasn't exactly my intent.

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Vastet wrote:It's a sad but

Vastet wrote:

It's a sad but simple reality that school boards are just as democratic as governments, and curriculums are therefore as jumpy as budgets. The result is that the majority decides what to teach, and when, and how. The majority does not utilize logic on a recurring and daily basis, so the majority doesn't think it's a priority. I suspect there is also a minority within the majority which is aware of how much they would be crippled by such a course offered to the young, and does whatever it can to ensure it doesn't happen. This minority would be made up of primarily advertisers and religious institutions: Those with the most to lose in the face of a well educated populace.

 

Edit: I just realized my first line could be seen as a blasting of democracy, which wasn't exactly my intent.

 

 

The majority doesn’t utilize chemistry, astrology , biology on a regular basis jet we educate kids in this stuff. In my humble opinion English class suppose to be scraped and replaced with logic you can secede in life typing and using broken and bad English however you are going to make mistakes if you don’t know logic.

 

I think because our entire system political/economical relies upon the majority being ignorant and stupid. Imagine every politician tells out write logical fallacies to get into office if he institutes logic the voters of tomorrow will not vote for him do to his use of logical fallacies.

 

And imagine how the economy will go down if people realize that every commercial is a logical falacie ? Ad historum  , ad novum  and ad populum are on the air non stop ! “Try this new product its new you need new stuff “ , “this product is made according to a 100 yare old tradition” , “every one haze product X you need it”. Can you imagine what will happen if the consumer realizes that the commercials are nonsensical !

 

PS:I have no problem in blasting democracy and I will not go on a red herring (off topic ) about it.

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I don't think there is that

I don't think there is that much interest.  How many kids cry at having to take math up to pre-algebra or algebra by their senior year in high school?  Yeah, there are some smart kids who would be interested, but schools don't tend to focus on these kids.  More often than not these kids are left to fend for themselves as they will educate themselves while others will not. 

Quite frankly, if I was a school administrator and had the funds for 1 additional class I would choose something like auto shop or carpentry over logic.  It's totally not fair to the smart kids who want a good education, but socially our society's members at the bottom drag us down if they don't have some sort of skill set.  Maybe I'm just being an arrogant snob here, but I have known so many people in life who wouldn't be able to handle a logic course even at a basic introductory level.

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logic

09.05.08  Logic

Logic is not taught properly in schools because it inhibits one’s ability to 'be gullible' and believe that folk can actually walk on water or be born of virgins because a supernatural entity can say' let it be' and they believe!

 

There are no answers in 'christ' jesus. Renunciation grows the village that needs us,

 

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When I was going to Jr high

When I was going to Jr high , HS and even a bit of elementary some things about logical fallacies and such were taught in Reading classes, but it was lucky if it was a week out of a year (more likely a day or they didn't cover it at all.)

 

Edit: AAAACCKKK! Shop class. Had it in 7th and 8th grade and flunked both times. I suck at anything using my hands.

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carx wrote: Why isn’t

carx wrote:
Why isn’t logic a subject in schools ? It’s a interesting question so please give me your opinion.
And How!
Vastet wrote:
It's a sad but simple reality that school boards are just as democratic as governments, and curriculums are therefore as jumpy as budgets.
On both counts, that depends on where you live.
Quote:
The result is that the majority decides what to teach, and when, and how.
That's more or less true, depending on where you live. In Ontario, for instance, the Ministry of Education mandates curricula and policy.
Quote:
The majority does not utilize logic on a recurring and daily basis, so the majority doesn't think it's a priority
Pardon me? Everyone uses logic innumerable times on any given day.
Quote:
I suspect there is also a minority within the majority which is aware of how much they would be crippled by such a course offered to the young, and does whatever it can to ensure it doesn't happen. This minority would be made up of primarily advertisers and religious institutions: Those with the most to lose in the face of a well educated populace.
The populace is well-educated. Any given country in the West has quite good education and virtually 100% literacy. A course in logic taught to the young would not be detrimental, exactly, to those who 'might lose in the face ... [of enlightened youth]', I doubt very much that an elementary course would cover much more than fallacies and argumentation and maybe some simple sentential logic. Such a course would only allow the kids to see how they use (and maybe abuse) logic already. As we've seen, someone dead set on continuing their delusion won't be swayed by education. Math is a form of logic that is already taught.
carx wrote:
The majority doesn’t utilize chemistry, astrology [hopefully carx means astronomy], biology on a regular basis jet we educate kids in this stuff.
The stuff that kids learn is foundational to continuing an education in any of those fields and often engages them in particular analytical and abstract challenges that 'expand' their minds.
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In my humble opinion English class suppose to be scraped and replaced with logic you can secede in life typing and using broken and bad English however you are going to make mistakes if you don’t know logic.
I disagree wholly and not least because I study language. Knowing your own language (and others) as best as you can is often one of the most gratifying learning experiences someone can have. It is enlightening and language is a door to the nuance and complexity of some logic. I would have to argue, as well, that it is not possible to succeed in life without some mastery of your own language.
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I think because our entire system political/economical relies upon the majority being ignorant and stupid.
That's cynical and not wholly true. I think people are stupid, but I don't think our 'system' relies on this. I think the opposite of that, in fact.
Quote:
Imagine every politician tells out write logical fallacies to get into office if he institutes logic the voters of tomorrow will not vote for him do to his use of logical fallacies.
Emotional appeal is strong and sometimes it is not fallacious. Humans respond to emotion. Politicians use appeals to emotion constantly. I have no doubt that politicians (a good deal of them anyhow) are well aware of the tricks they employ to encourage voters to elect them. I don't even think it's wholly bad, though I prefer elections without pointless attack ads (sadly, even Canadian politicians have used them).
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And imagine how the economy will go down if people realize that every commercial is a logical falacie ?
Ugh... far from being logical fallacies, commercial advertisements are carefully choreographed manipulations of the viewer's subconscious mind. They do use logical fallacies and being aware of them can remove some of their effect, but commercials are, even when they don't make you want to buy the product, at their core simply an advertisement of a product that is on the market. Lots of people are aware of this. I would contend that everyone is aware of it, as media literacy is taught at the elementary and secondary levels (or at least it is here).

I think logic class would be an excellent idea, but it seems like something that should rather be subtly incorporated into existing English and Math classes.

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 anniet wrote: I don't

 

anniet wrote:

I don't think there is that much interest.  How many kids cry at having to take math up to pre-algebra or algebra by their senior year in high school?  Yeah, there are some smart kids who would be interested, but schools don't tend to focus on these kids.  More often than not these kids are left to fend for themselves as they will educate themselves while others will not. 

Quite frankly, if I was a school administrator and had the funds for 1 additional class I would choose something like auto shop or carpentry over logic.  It's totally not fair to the smart kids who want a good education, but socially our society's members at the bottom drag us down if they don't have some sort of skill set.  Maybe I'm just being an arrogant snob here, but I have known so many people in life who wouldn't be able to handle a logic course even at a basic introductory level.

Well I think the ability to not get tricked via logical fallacies from religion or politicians/marketing is more important and real life. Unless the kids are grooving up in a total dictatorship with no choice over thus mothers , in this case fuck logic learn to obey your leader/leaders and ask no questions.

MattShizzle wrote:

When I was going to Jr high , HS and even a bit of elementary some things about logical fallacies and such were taught in Reading classes, but it was lucky if it was a week out of a year (more likely a day or they didn't cover it at all.)

 

Edit: AAAACCKKK! Shop class. Had it in 7th and 8th grade and flunked both times. I suck at anything using my hands.

 

Yes occasional teaching happens however well I think getting tricked into voting is equally important then learning to count so you don’t get tricked in the store buying something.

 

PS: WTF shopping class FTW !??? Ye make the kids drummer and mare addicted to shopping in America , maybe acid smocking class next ? Sticking out tongue.

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Shop, not shopping. It's

Shop, not shopping. It's like wood working, electrical, etc. Actually that's the nickname it's usually called "Industrial arts." In the old days they used to make the boys take that and the girls take home ec. Since at least the 1980s both sexes take both. I was actually better at home ec, except the sewing shit I couldn't do. I also should be kept as far as possible from power tools (unless you want to see something destroyed and possibly people in the emergency room. )

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MattShizzle wrote:Shop, not

MattShizzle wrote:

Shop, not shopping. It's like wood working, electrical, etc. Actually that's the nickname it's usually called "Industrial arts." In the old days they used to make the boys take that and the girls take home ec. Since at least the 1980s both sexes take both. I was actually better at home ec, except the sewing shit I couldn't do. I also should be kept as far as possible from power tools (unless you want to see something destroyed and possibly people in the emergency room. )

 

HEHEHE my mistake sorry Laughing out loud I get it now HAHAHA how silly of me. 

 

Well I think this is a amusing misunderstanding Laughing out loud

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Eh.

Logic is simple stuff, and unless you're getting hard-core symbolic logic down, you don't need more than an hour to teach it to most people. Give it a week of hour long classes at most for anyone with an above-impaired IQ.

What schools need to be teaching is critical thinking. I wrote a curriculum for teaching critical thinking skills based entirely on taking apart television and newspaper advertisements. I figured that was one place no one would be willing to hop out and claim some special protected status to exempt from critical thought, and thus was the perfect "thin end of the wedge" to get past all manner of indoctrination.

The curriculum was used for a small school attached to a community based behavioral treatment facility for teens, and was credited for the improvement of buying and decision making behaviors of the patients. =^_^=

(Not that I'm tooting my own horn or anything >.> )

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Yes logic is easy ^_^

Yes logic is easy ^_^ “.

 

The critical thinking class sounds even better then my idea “what logical fallacies do we have in this commercial?”

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I would disagree with

I would disagree with JillSwift when she says that logic is easy to teach, at least as a subject in its own right.

 

The application of logic however is taught - albeit badly a lot of the time - in subjects to which it is intrinsic (math, physics etc) but it is also true that its misapplication gets an almost equal emphasis in other subjects. The appreciation of literature when taught as a subject, for example, often fudges between objective reasoning and subjective interpretation, giving each apparently equal status as interpretative methods. Language-study classes (and especially second languages) are also often peppered with imperatives such as "it just is" when explaining rules and deviancy from rules in grammar. I am not saying that either subject could not be taught with a stress on logic by a teacher so inclined, just that the case more often than not is that they aren't.

 

Umberto Eco (a hero of mine) wrote an article once where he said that no one should be allowed learn anything in a classroom situation until their logical faculties had been honed to a degree that they could intuitively correct the teacher and be right. Besides being a successful fiction author Eco's day job was lecturing in semantics, a discipline that takes language by the scruff of the neck and forces its users to acknowledge the logic (ften tortuous to describe) by which it behaves. He described his worst students as being typically those whose opinion of their own literary skills outweighed their ability to spot when they subverted the language they employed. The absolute worst therefore were, according to Eco, those indoctrinated into a religious belief (of any description).

 

Like JillSwift, Eco also advocated critical thinking as a mainstay of the school curriculum (from the child's first day in school) and radically suggested that a child's progress through the grades should not be automatically based on their age but on their responsiveness to this education. He firmly believed that reason and common sense were things that all are born with and that those who apparently have neither have been subjected to "bad education". His solution to overcoming this obstacle with individual students in his own classes was to encourage them to criticise as much as possible (even ignorantly) and then invite others to criticise the criticisms. What he found was that the result of this approach most often led to the individual in question eventually pre-criticising their own criticisms, a crucial step to de-indoctrination. He was talking about semantics students, but he was in no doubt that the same principle should apply in all areas of education where subjective reasoning based on bad data applied.

 

You can imagine how Eco is regarded by the church in his native country Italy - and his views on that subject too make for very interesting reading.

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Nordmann wrote:I would

Nordmann wrote:
I would disagree with JillSwift when she says that logic is easy to teach, at least as a subject in its own right.
That's because you're a silly doodie-head Sticking out tongue Eye-wink

Nordmann wrote:
Eco
Eco is freaking brilliant. His writings on semiotics have very much influenced my thinking about teaching - as well as changed some of my views on cultural understanding. =^_^=

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Schools offer classes in

Schools offer classes in Comparative Religion, World Religion, etc. and flinch at teaching biology to a class of Christians' kids. I barely learned anything useful or relevant in public school beyond writing/reading, which my parents could have easily taught me. I liked the science classes, but we never discussed anything deeply so science to me and many kids has become thought of as boring, textbook stuff. We learned the basics but failed to go further. Science classes could really fascinate kids if they were pushed.

I'm taking philosophy, Critical Thinking, in college now and I LOVE it. I'm like WHY wasn't this offered to me years ago? It's so USEFUL!

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Ethics too ....

Teach Ethics too .... starting grade 1. Think of the short simple films etc we could create for all grade levels, showing examples of wrong and prejudice behavior. Are brown eyes better than blue eyes? Did a person ask to be born? Why are some people disfigured? Why is stealing wrong? ETC.

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damn

Damn philosophy, was about critical thinking, maybe I should have taken in at uni.  There is a little bit of logic in the maths syllabus and computer studies, but in essence it is the critical thinking that education misses (particularly at the younger ages).  A lot of that is by poor design, you want the kids to believe you.  2 plus 2 is 4, don't swim in shark infested water, don't swim after eating, sacrifice a goat at midnight on the 2 full moon of the month.  To teach critical thinking, means thinking about the education methods as a whole and not just one class.

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KiwiStu wrote:Damn

KiwiStu wrote:

Damn philosophy, was about critical thinking, maybe I should have taken in at uni.  There is a little bit of logic in the maths syllabus and computer studies, but in essence it is the critical thinking that education misses (particularly at the younger ages).  A lot of that is by poor design, you want the kids to believe you.  2 plus 2 is 4, don't swim in shark infested water, don't swim after eating, sacrifice a goat at midnight on the 2 full moon of the month.  To teach critical thinking, means thinking about the education methods as a whole and not just one class.

 

Ye that could disturb the school structure however I suppose identifying logical fallacies is not going to mess the kids up and will help them fight marketing and religion

 

A: god is real because everyone believes in him !        

B: Ad populum fallacy your argument if void

 

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carx wrote:The majority

carx wrote:

The majority doesn’t utilize chemistry, astrology , biology on a regular basis jet we educate kids in this stuff.

 

 

Chemistry, astronomy(at least, I suspect that's what you meant, since astrology isn't a science), and biology are not critical components to throwing off relgious beliefs. As a result, there is no reason not to teach them.

 

  

carx wrote:
In my humble opinion English class suppose to be scraped and replaced with logic you can secede in life typing and using broken and bad English however you are going to make mistakes if you don’t know logic.

 

I can't say English would be a good course to drop. The course has changed significantly since I last went to school in the mid 90's. At least, it has in Canada. But I'm sure it could be easily modified to include logic as a backbone of the curriculum.

 

carx wrote:
I think because our entire system political/economical relies upon the majority being ignorant and stupid. Imagine every politician tells out write logical fallacies to get into office if he institutes logic the voters of tomorrow will not vote for him do to his use of logical fallacies.

 

Heh. At least universities would vote for him/her. However, I say the system is broken, and needs to be fixed.

 

carx wrote:
And imagine how the economy will go down if people realize that every commercial is a logical falacie ? Ad historum  , ad novum  and ad populum are on the air non stop !

 

  

I believe I mentioned that. I'll also mention that I learned some logic in elementry school that dealt specifically with viewing commercials. I vaguely remember those lessons to this day, though little else from that time. I don't know how successful it was with the rest of my class, but it worked like a charm on me. I don't watch commercials unless I'm already interested in the product/service in advance.

 

 

carx wrote:
PS:I have no problem in blasting democracy and I will not go on a red herring (off topic ) about it.

 

I have little problem in blasting a capitalist democracy myself, but it wasn't a direction fitting for this topic, as you point out.

anniet wrote:

I don't think there is that much interest.  How many kids cry at having to take math up to pre-algebra or algebra by their senior year in high school?  Yeah, there are some smart kids who would be interested, but schools don't tend to focus on these kids.  More often than not these kids are left to fend for themselves as they will educate themselves while others will not. 

Quite frankly, if I was a school administrator and had the funds for 1 additional class I would choose something like auto shop or carpentry over logic.  It's totally not fair to the smart kids who want a good education, but socially our society's members at the bottom drag us down if they don't have some sort of skill set.  Maybe I'm just being an arrogant snob here, but I have known so many people in life who wouldn't be able to handle a logic course even at a basic introductory level.

 

I don't think an actual course in logic is a good idea until high school or later, but I also think some basic logic skills could easily be incorporated into Science, Math, and/or English courses.

 

Thomathy wrote:

Vastet wrote:
It's a sad but simple reality that school boards are just as democratic as governments, and curriculums are therefore as jumpy as budgets.

On both counts, that depends on where you live.

 

Excellent point.

Thomathy wrote:

Pardon me? Everyone uses logic innumerable times on any given day.

Sure, but how many of them are aware of it? Are you conciously aware at every given moment that you are using logic when you add 413097 to 1283? Of course not. Is a priest conciously aware that he is not using logic when he addresses his clergy? Of course not. The vast majority of people think of logic and Spock in the same terms. They don't consider it as a function of their brains that can be trained. They don't think of it as being something used daily, so it's not important enough to teach to be used daily.

Thomathy wrote:

The populace is well-educated. Any given country in the West has quite good education and virtually 100% literacy.

 

That is not quite accurate. For one thing, the literacy rate is 99%. 1% might not seem like much until you realize that 1% of the US population is 3 million people(and frankly, I don't believe it's that low for a second either. I've known far too many people who can't read or write for that percentage to make any sense, but in the vacuum of evidence, I will not bother fighting it). For another, there isn't a "good" educational program anywhere in the world. Canada is viewed as one of the best, and having gone through it myself I can easily say it sucks. What I've seen of the American educational system makes me cringe.

 

Thomathy wrote:
A course in logic taught to the young would not be detrimental, exactly, to those who 'might lose in the face ... [of enlightened youth]', I doubt very much that an elementary course would cover much more than fallacies and argumentation and maybe some simple sentential logic. Such a course would only allow the kids to see how they use (and maybe abuse) logic already. As we've seen, someone dead set on continuing their delusion won't be swayed by education. Math is a form of logic that is already taught.

 

Every bit helps. I think incorporating it into other classes would be more productive than a class on it's own however. Put a bit of logical deduction into science and english, and maybe tone down the math a bit. Math is probably one of the most hated subjects out there. As a result, it's most valuable lessons are not learned by the majority.

 

Editted for paragraphical errors.

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Vastet wrote:Thomathy

Vastet wrote:
Thomathy wrote:
Pardon me? Everyone uses logic innumerable times on any given day.
Sure, but how many of them are aware of it? Are you conciously aware at every given moment that you are using logic when you add 413097 to 1283? Of course not. Is a priest conciously aware that he is not using logic when he addresses his clergy? Of course not. The vast majority of people think of logic and Spock in the same terms. They don't consider it as a function of their brains that can be trained. They don't think of it as being something used daily, so it's not important enough to teach to be used daily.
I am aware of it.  Math is logic.  That many people aren't aware that they're using logic as often as they are doesn't change the fact that they use it so often.  I was just pointing out that everyone uses logic daily, in fact no one could function without it.

 

Vastet wrote:
Thomathy wrote:
The populace is well-educated. Any given country in the West has quite good education and virtually 100% literacy.
That is not quite accurate. For one thing, the literacy rate is 99%. 1% might not seem like much until you realize that 1% of the US population is 3 million people(and frankly, I don't believe it's that low for a second either. I've known far too many people who can't read or write for that percentage to make any sense, but in the vacuum of evidence, I will not bother fighting it). For another, there isn't a "good" educational program anywhere in the world. Canada is viewed as one of the best, and having gone through it myself I can easily say it sucks. What I've seen of the American educational system makes me cringe.
First, you should know I'm Canadian.  I've gone through a Canadian educational system and I hardly think it sucked or that the system sucks.  Let's not argue about that though, I doubt we'll get far exchanging subjective opinions on our educational experiences.
I wasn't being intentionally inaccurate when I quoted the literacy rate as being virtually 100%.  Literacy includes partial literacy to varying degrees.  For instance, complete literacy drops off by nearly half in people over the age 0f 40, if I remember the StatsCan publication correctly.  But literacy is only one measure of education.  I must insist that the popluation, generally, is 'well-educated', with the caveat that by 'well-educated' I mean the majority of people have graduated high school (more than 90% in the US) and are literate (great than 97% in any country in the West).  I don't mean to defend any educational system.  I think many reforms are needed.

Vastet wrote:
Thomathy wrote:
A course in logic taught to the young would not be detrimental, exactly, to those who 'might lose in the face ... [of enlightened youth]', I doubt very much that an elementary course would cover much more than fallacies and argumentation and maybe some simple sentential logic. Such a course would only allow the kids to see how they use (and maybe abuse) logic already. As we've seen, someone dead set on continuing their delusion won't be swayed by education. Math is a form of logic that is already taught.
Every bit helps. I think incorporating it into other classes would be more productive than a class on it's own however. Put a bit of logical deduction into science and english, and maybe tone down the math a bit. Math is probably one of the most hated subjects out there. As a result, it's most valuable lessons are not learned by the majority.
Math might be one of the most hated (I have never liked it, but I could excell in it), but it is still logic.  Science employs logic, but I don't think that's ever made explicit to the children.  I agree, incorportating it into other classes would be the best way, to start off at least.

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Thomathy wrote:I am aware of

Thomathy wrote:
I am aware of it. Math is logic. That many people aren't aware that they're using logic as often as they are doesn't change the fact that they use it so often. I was just pointing out that everyone uses logic daily, in fact no one could function without it.

But that wasn't the point. The point is that because most people aren't aware of the degree to which logic penetrates their reality, and likely because many groups and institutions have much to lose in a logical culture, it is not a focus when school boards get together and focus on their curriculum for the year.

Thomathy wrote:

First, you should know I'm Canadian.  I've gone through a Canadian educational system and I hardly think it sucked or that the system sucks.  Let's not argue about that though, I doubt we'll get far exchanging subjective opinions on our educational experiences.

So you know, I didn't assume your nationality. I tend to use American statistics because the I tend to speak with Americans a lot more than other nationalities, plus they have a large population that allows for more effective studying of their culture. As for discussing our school experiences, probably not. But I believe you will find a couple things familiar.

Too many kids per class, relegating time for getting help from a teacher to little or nothing, depending on various circumstances.

Teaching useless skills and knowledge that are used by less than 1% of the population in the work force.

Not teaching useful skills and knowledge that could be quite useful in life after school to the majority of students.

Thomathy wrote:

I wasn't being intentionally inaccurate when I quoted the literacy rate as being virtually 100%. Literacy includes partial literacy to varying degrees. For instance, complete literacy drops off by nearly half in people over the age 0f 40, if I remember the StatsCan publication correctly. But literacy is only one measure of education. I must insist that the popluation, generally, is 'well-educated', with the caveat that by 'well-educated' I mean the majority of people have graduated high school (more than 90% in the US) and are literate (great than 97% in any country in the West). I don't mean to defend any educational system. I think many reforms are needed.

 

The question I raise is whether a standard high school education can be considered a "good" education. I don't believe it can. I use the state of the "educated" world as circumstancial evidence.

 

I apologize if something of yours got cut off and went unresponded to, but I'm using IE, and had to take extra steps in determining the contents of your post as IE cut off the text horizontally and vertically.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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Quote:Math is probably one

Quote:

Math is probably one of the most hated subjects out there

I loved mathematics and I still do precisely because of its relationship with formal logic. Mathematical physics especially is my favorite area of study. In high school especially I had an advantage because of the way I thought about mathematics. I would always derive things, and view mathematics in terms of the logical steps. Since I had already taught myself formal logic, I considered the two to be inseperable (insofar as mathematics is built on formal logic). I never, ever revised or "studied" for mathematics tests, but still excelled, because I really understood the mathematics. I didn't need to memorize what I could prove. That was why I really liked math. There were no "facts" to memorize. There was only the perfect order of the abstraction and the applied reasoning. I can tell you exactly how to compute fluid flux over a surface defined by a binary function, but I've never memorized it. That would be a waste of time. I can prove it. I didn't memorize the proof. That would be a waste of time. I understand it because it is based on reasoned concepts which I understand and whose basis I can prove in turn. Mathematics is supposed to train serious thinkers, not serve formulas on a plate.

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

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If taught properly, English

If taught properly, English classes can be very helpful in terms of logic. My classes were mostly about creating and supporting an argument, finding evidence in text and analyzing text for historical/social significance.

*Our world is far more complex than the rigid structure we want to assign to it, and we will probably never fully understand it.*

"Those believers who are sophisticated enough to understand the paradox have found exciting ways to bend logic into pretzel shapes in order to defend the indefensible." - Hamby


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I always hated math, but I'm

I always hated math, but I'm really fucking good at it. I used to figure out the problems on the board before the teacher could - including formulas in physics class.

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Pubic, er Public Schools only want to teach WHAT to think

carx wrote:

 Why isn’t logic a subject  in schools ? It’s a interesting question so please give me your opinion.

Because the goal of the US Public [and private Christian] education system is to only teach students WHAT to think rather than HOW to think. Just imagine if all these kids growing up today were taught HOW to think rationally, HOW to utilize critical thought, HOW to critically be able to analyze WHAT they're being taught, HOW to discredit their Sunday School indoctrination with reason and logic, and/or HOW to determine all the fallacies coming from the illegitimate governmental authorities?

If young adults or even middle school kids were taught HOW to think from the start rather than WHAT to think there would be protests and riots in the streets of America from a new more educated, learned and much larger group of young Americans who would be even more revolutionary than  the 'peace and love' anti-war movement of the 60s! We'd gratefully have anarchy threatening what is no longer a democracy - that is if the system even ever resembled a democracy to begin with!

Revolution being of course what's needed as the only viable way to overthrow corporatist Fed authoritarian rule and plutocratic society we all live in today.... The Feds know from the failed 'under 30' revolution of the 60s that younger adults and teens that know HOW to think would be an imminent danger to our ever increasing authoritarian Police State.... Hence the well known 'dumbing down of America' occasional reported by responsible journalists.

Americans, particularly its overwhelming majority living in the alternate twilight zone bible belt reality who are predominantly republican Christians mired in a faith based epistemology unfounded in fact desperately need to learn how to think rather than what to think. The total Air Force, Army and Navy combined in this American Empire can’t cure the dependent faith based thinking found not just in America, but those in any nation ruled by one of the 3 primary monotheistic religions.

Education providing skills in even the fundamentals of critical thinking distinguishing reason from emotive and faith based dependent 'ditto head' thinking can serve as a panacea to the resulting irrational faith based actions causing mass murder and mayhem around the globe.

Critical thinking is not inherent in the individual, nor is it instinctual or genetically derived. It is a learned skill. Reason can exist with faith only if the world's religious adherents can keep their faith reserved to their respective religions while learning to use reason for their reality here on earth. Which of course they can not, nor will not due to the religious psychosis they suffer from that keeps them from even comprehending that they're clinically insane!

There is a definitive lack of skills in critical thinking, logic and reasoning amongst not only a majority of American adults, but America's children. Nearly 40 percent of high school students in America "cannot draw inferences from written material; only one-fifth can write a persuasive essay; and only one-third can solve a mathematics problem requiring several steps." [A Nation at Risk; National Commission on Excellence in Education] 

 

If there was a God, Man wouldn't have had to invent him [reversing Voltaire's famous quote].


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Quote:and only one-third can

Quote:

and only one-third can solve a mathematics problem requiring several steps

The last one seems a little vague. I find this statistic somewhat hard to believe as even the most basic high school mathematical problem "requires several steps", thus the implication that 67% of all students fail their course. Do the authors have a more precise definition of this terms used in this statistic?

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

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deludedgod wrote:The last

deludedgod wrote:

The last one seems a little vague. I find this statistic somewhat hard to believe as even the most basic high school mathematical problem "requires several steps", thus the implication that 67% of all students fail their course. Do the authors have a more precise definition of this terms used in this statistic?

Unfortunately I don't know exactly where I found that stat except somewhere on line cited by the 'National Commission on Excellence in Education' in a report before Bush's 'No Child Left Behind Act' called 'A Nation at Risk' [I copy pasted it and where it came from]. Perhaps you can find it by running it through a search engine. 

However do realize it's only become worse since Bush's 'No Child Left Behind Act'. I read somewhere inner city schools throughout the US in larger cities are averaging only a 40% High School graduation rate. Which would just about match that 67% implication you cite of all students failing basic high school math.

Heard on NPR that only 35% starting at a local Vegas High School called Western even graduate.  At one inner city LA high school nearly 6 in 10 drop out..


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carx wrote: Why isn’t

carx wrote:
 

Why isn’t logic a subject  in schools ? It’s a interesting question so please give me your opinion.

 

Because people don't get a high from logical thinking like they do from drugs like religion, music, bleeding heart liberalism. In my school, they gave 14-15 year olds the option of taking what we wanted to take. So, we 4 years of band, 4 years of music. But no physics, logic or advanced math classes. So now people wonder why the economy sucks and there are no good jobs or innovative companies in areas like alternative energy technology. Everyone just goes broke paying $4 gas.

I'm not against music, I enjoy it sometimes play it. But priority must be given to what works when it comes to making people self sufficient and meets the needs of society. Teenager can not be given the option to study what ever they want in a public education system.

 

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


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Deludedgod,You might find

Deludedgod,

You might find this interesting.  Less than 80% of students taking the California high school exit exam for math passed.  This test allows for lots of people to get exceptions and not have to test.

http://cahsee.cde.ca.gov/ExitProg1.asp?cLevel=State&cYear=2007-08&cChoice=ExitProg1&cAdmin=C&tDate=000000&TestType=M&cGrade=10&Pageno=1

 

"The mathematics part of the CAHSEE addresses state mathematics content standards in grades six and seven and the first part of Algebra. It includes statistics, data analysis and probability, number sense, measurement and geometry, algebra and functions, mathematical reasoning, and Algebra I. Students must demonstrate computational skills and a foundation in arithmetic, including working with decimals, fractions, and percentages. "  http://www.cde.ca.gov/ta/tg/hs/documents/cahseeqa08_003.doc

 

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I had no idea the secondary

I had no idea the secondary education in your country was in such a state. I stand corrected.

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

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A major problem would bet

A major problem would bet hat not every school has the same curiculum and standards, therefore even if u did manage to get logic as a school course in differnt states, counties, schools it would be different, i have been to 3 different schools in the past 4 years and nothing in the courses have been the same...

Knowledge is power
Power leads to corruption
Corrution leads to crime
Crime doesn't pay
So if you study you'll go broke.


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People get 'high' off Bleeding Heart Liberalism EXC?

EXC wrote:

carx wrote:
 

Why isn’t logic a subject  in schools ? It’s a interesting question so please give me your opinion.

Because people don't get a high from logical thinking like they do from drugs like religion, music, bleeding heart liberalism.

You may have at last somewhat come to your senses regarding the Christian Indoctrination [Evangelical wasn't it?] you have cited as receiving while growing up, but it appears you're still buying into all the radical right political propagandist lies and fallacies preached from their pulpits across the land... If anything could be construed to be a 'high' it would be the cult like similarities between the indoctrination of Evangelical Christians and die hard republicans who would still worship Bush if he screwed a 10 year old boy live on Fox News  [and now McCain].  Cult-like Die hard republicans who still provide a stream of irrational radical right attacks on anything communist or liberal that you evidence here claiming liberalism as some sort of 'high' akin to a drug.

Do you still irrationally condemn homosexuals, vilify only Muslims, and look down on anyone that's not your particular Pillsbury Dough shade of White too based on that radical right wing Church propaganda you grew up with?

How ironic it is that you EXC provide a prime example of fallacious expression stemming from still lingering far right religious motiivated political indoctrination teaching you only WHAT to think rather than HOW to think..

If there was a God, Man wouldn't have had to invent him [reversing Voltaire's famous quote].


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Adnihilo wrote:You may have

Adnihilo wrote:

You may have at last somewhat come to your senses regarding the Christian Indoctrination [Evangelical wasn't it?] you have cited as receiving while growing up, but it appears you're still buying into all the radical right political propagandist lies and fallacies preached from their pulpits across the land... If anything could be construed to be a 'high' it would be the cult like similarities between the indoctrination of Evangelical Christians and die hard republicans who would still worship Bush if he screwed a 10 year old boy live on Fox News  [and now McCain].  Cult-like Die hard republicans who still provide a stream of irrational radical right attacks on anything communist or liberal that you evidence here claiming liberalism as some sort of 'high' akin to a drug.

Do you still irrationally condemn homosexuals, vilify only Muslims, and look down on anyone that's not your particular Pillsbury Dough shade of White too based on that radical right wing Church propaganda you grew up with?

How ironic it is that you EXC provide a prime example of fallacious expression stemming from still lingering far right religious motiivated political indoctrination teaching you only WHAT to think rather than HOW to think..

You completely misunderstand my positions and lump me in with people who I consider as irrational as the wealth redistributors. I'm pretty libertarian on social issues, so I don't have any problems with homosexuals. In fact you have the irration idea that government can be everyone's sugar daddy just as the Christians believe and invisible man can be everyone's sugar daddy.

I've just debated enough people who believe in the welfare state to realize they only want to "help" the less fortunate with other people's money because they get some kind of high from feeling like their helping when they are doing nothing. Reality doesn't matter when your advocating wealth redistribution with other people's money, only that you feel like you 'care'.

You advocate a permanent welfare/wealth redistribution system to reward people who fail to get an education and become productive members of society. You want to give more wealth to the governments that screwed up education so badly in the first place that people become so indigent and dependent. You advocate having society live beyond our means. So attack me with emotional personal attacks and misrepresentations, this just shows how irrational you are.

Since you "know how to think", please explain how a society can survive with so many people living beyond their means? And a government living beyond our means? How it can survive with a system that rewards failure and punishes success? This is why we have this financial crisis this week.

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


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Most of this crisis was due

Most of this crisis was due to too much deregulation of business. You seem to hold the extremely irrational idea that the only reason people don't succeed is not wanting to or not getting an education. It's far more complicated than that. Ever hear of the cycle of poverty? As others have told you, stop listening to Rush Limbaugh and Anne Coulter and actually think.

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anniet wrote:Deludedgod,You

anniet wrote:

Deludedgod,

You might find this interesting.  Less than 80% of students taking the California high school exit exam for math passed.  This test allows for lots of people to get exceptions and not have to test.

http://cahsee.cde.ca.gov/ExitProg1.asp?cLevel=State&cYear=2007-08&cChoice=ExitProg1&cAdmin=C&tDate=000000&TestType=M&cGrade=10&Pageno=1

 

"The mathematics part of the CAHSEE addresses state mathematics content standards in grades six and seven and the first part of Algebra. It includes statistics, data analysis and probability, number sense, measurement and geometry, algebra and functions, mathematical reasoning, and Algebra I. Students must demonstrate computational skills and a foundation in arithmetic, including working with decimals, fractions, and percentages. "  http://www.cde.ca.gov/ta/tg/hs/documents/cahseeqa08_003.doc

 

I graduated from a California High School a little over three years ago. The exit exam that I took in the third year of high school was extremely easy to pass. The point of the exam, if I remember correctly, is to do well enough on it to pass what the state considers to be level that the average middle school student should achieve. So you don't even need to do high school level math or high school level understanding of language. So long as you have mastered middle school math and English, you should pass easily. I remember thinking that the test was ridiculously easy. In my local newspaper there were articles on the effects of the exit exam. All of the articles were against it. They had students giving sad stories about how they have taken the exam multiple times, but could not pass it. And keep in mind that that these are high school seniors repeatedly failing a test designed for middle school students. The students that complained and my local newspaper made it seem as though the exit exam was unfairly stealing away these students diplomas. Reading those stories made me realize how broken our education system is. Students that can pass every high school class that they take somehow can not pass middle school standards. How does that happen? Are our standards so lax that anyone can slip by them? Are teachers afraid to hand out a few 'F's? Also keep in mind that you could take this exam a total of five times. By the fifth time you took it you should have all of the problems memorized. Their is no excuse for this kind of failure.

On a happier note, my college experiences are extremely better than my high school experiences. I think that is caused in part by teachers not being afraid to hand out 'D's and 'F's to those who deserve it. The new attitude is "Do your work and pass this test or you will fail," the high school attitude was "Do your work and do ok on this test or you will get a 'C' and be promoted to the next grade anyways."

"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."
British General Charles Napier while in India


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I actually found college

I actually found college much easier than high school. Probably because I refused to do "busy work" which lowered my grade and was less rebellious in college due to the much less restrictive environment. I mostly got C's, some D's and 2 F's in high schhol, while I averaged just above a 3.0 in college. I tended to do well on tests.

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Jormungander wrote:How does

Jormungander wrote:

How does that happen? Are our standards so lax that anyone can slip by them? Are teachers afraid to hand out a few 'F's?

First, so nice to hear college is going well for you.  What are you majoring in?

Let me share a story with you.  My dad has the worst case of dyslexia I have ever seen (and I spent over a year working with many kinds of "learning disabled" students).  Dad never got good grades in high school and did make some trouble.  When the principal threatened to expel him in his senior year, grampa high-tailed on up to the school.  He let it be known that if dad was expelled, the principal was going to get his ass kicked.  Dad graduated with the rest of the class.  (This was in California in the 60's.)

Teachers have been known to promote kids to the next grade so that they won't have to deal with them for a 2nd year.  I don't have any hard data on this, so have no idea how prevalent the practice has been, but it I've heard a fair amount of stories of teachers doing this.  There's another issue too.  What kind of job can you get if you don't even have a high school diploma?  Schools and teachers have told themselves that they are doing themselves a favor by giving someone the benefit of the doubt and handing over the diploma.  After all, what's the kid going to do after graduation if they don't have a diploma?  That's why we're now at the point where a diploma means squat.

Let me share one more story.  I know someone who tested above average on a childhood IQ test, not quite gifted, but close.  She has ADD/ADHD issues and didn't get far beyond high school, but she does have a high school diploma and took some community college courses (all in California).  She is not stupid but is uneducated.  One day she was going on about how much she was in love with Scotland and really wanted to visit someday.  I mentioned something about it being part of an island.  She just looked at me and said "Really?  It's on an island?"  That is what the basic California school system gets you. 

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The stories being discuss

The stories being discuss remind me of why I really like the IB (which was the high school system I went through). It has several enormous advantages:

1. It is an international program based in Geneva. As such, every subject, exam and course is standardized. There is no grading curve. The grade boundaries are criteria-determined, not proportionally determined. As such, grade inflation is impossible. It is theoretically possible (though unlikely) for every student taking an IB exam to fail, since the grade boundaries are not adjusted on the basis of the proportion of students who get certain marks.

2. It is impossible for teachers to deliberately inflate grades or to pass students who are actually failing since everything is externally marked, there are a set of externally determined failing conditions. For example, if a student receives less than 24 points, does not complete their extended essay, fails TOK, gets a "level 1" in any subject, a level 2 in any 2 subjects, less than level 4 in a Higher Level subject (every subject is marked with a letter out of 7. It is analogous to A/B/C/D etc.), does not complete CAS, or  is judged guilty of malpractice by the IB committee (such as plaigarizing on the extended essay), they fail automatically.

The exams are externally marked by examiners on the other side of the world. As such, it is impossible for the teacher to inflate grades or to prop up failing students. The school does not hand out diplomas. The IBO hands them out.

3. There is an entire subject devoted to critical and logical thinking called TOK. It is a mandatory subject. Not passing TOK is a failing condition for the IB diploma. Every student must pass TOK.

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

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deludedgod wrote:The stories

deludedgod wrote:

The stories being discuss remind me of why I really like the IB (which was the high school system I went through). It has several enormous advantages:

1. It is an international program based in Geneva. As such, every subject, exam and course is standardized. There is no grading curve. The grade boundaries are criteria-determined, not proportionally determined. As such, grade inflation is impossible. It is theoretically possible (though unlikely) for every student taking an IB exam to fail, since the grade boundaries are not adjusted on the basis of the proportion of students who get certain marks.

2. It is impossible for teachers to deliberately inflate grades or to pass students who are actually failing since everything is externally marked, there are a set of externally determined failing conditions. For example, if a student receives less than 24 points, does not complete their extended essay, fails TOK, gets a "level 1" in any subject, a level 2 in any 2 subjects, less than level 4 in a Higher Level subject (every subject is marked with a letter out of 7. It is analogous to A/B/C/D etc.), does not complete CAS, or  is judged guilty of malpractice by the IB committee (such as plaigarizing on the extended essay), they fail automatically.

The exams are externally marked by examiners on the other side of the world. As such, it is impossible for the teacher to inflate grades or to prop up failing students. The school does not hand out diplomas. The IBO hands them out.

3. There is an entire subject devoted to critical and logical thinking called TOK. It is a mandatory subject. Not passing TOK is a failing condition for the IB diploma. Every student must pass TOK.

That sounds nice.  Accountability and oversight . . . I suppose I can dream! 

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Quote:That sounds nice. 

Quote:

That sounds nice.  Accountability and oversight . . . I suppose I can dream!

The IB is quite widely used in high schools in continental Europe and Canada (in the UK they still mostly use A levels). For some reason, very few schools in the US use the IB, although that will probably change since the IB is overwhelmingly superior and the US secondary education system is basically obsolete.

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

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Thanks DG. Why doesn't the

Thanks DG. Why doesn't the U.S. adopt better systems as demonstrated by other countries?  There is a saying that goes something like, " I didn't fail school, school failed me." 

Another is, "Give me the child until he is seven and I will give you the man." ~ Baltasar Gracian

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EXC's lingering political fallacies from Xtian Indocrination

EXC wrote:
Adnihilo wrote:

You may have at last somewhat come to your senses regarding the Christian Indoctrination [Evangelical wasn't it?] you have cited as receiving while growing up, but it appears you're still buying into all the radical right political propagandist lies and fallacies preached from their pulpits across the land... If anything could be construed to be a 'high' it would be the cult like similarities between the indoctrination of Evangelical Christians and die hard republicans who would still worship Bush if he screwed a 10 year old boy live on Fox News  [and now McCain].  Cult-like Die hard republicans who still provide a stream of irrational radical right attacks on anything communist or liberal that you evidence here claiming liberalism as some sort of 'high' akin to a drug.

Do you still irrationally condemn homosexuals, vilify only Muslims, and look down on anyone that's not your particular Pillsbury Dough shade of White too based on that radical right wing Church propaganda you grew up with?

How ironic it is that you EXC provide a prime example of fallacious expression stemming from still lingering far right religious motiivated political indoctrination teaching you only WHAT to think rather than HOW to think..

EXC wrote:
You completely misunderstand my positions and lump me in with people who I consider as irrational as the wealth redistributors.

No where do I 'lump' you in with people you "consider as irrational as the wealth redistributors".  What I did say is that although you may be on your way to becoming a 'non believer ' in that imaginary Sky God you still cling to a multitude of the deluded radical right wing Christian political propagandist lies spewed out especially by evangelical preachers from their pulpits of hate mongering. Hate these psychotics spew toward anything or anyone not believing in their particular sect of Christian dogma, their pasty white shade vanilla, liberals who in their minds are akin to communists, and hiliariously toward same sex encounters they themselves hypocritically seem to always end up outed in [or at least their leaders;-]. 

And I surely don't 'lump' you into the group of what you have to be inferring to be in liberal 'wealth re-distributors' actually wanting something back from their hard earned taxes in a decent public education and universal health care! Have you been paying the least bit of attention to the economic crash in the news? An economic crash further illustrating that the only 'wealth re-distrubtion' going on in America has been coming off the backs of the middle and poverty stricken working classes in this evil version of hiearchial capitalism 'deregulated  corporate greed'  that began predominantly back in the Reagan era and has continually worsened over the next few decades. Read Feudalism aka American Capitalism for more on Reagan's role in corporate deregulation in a free on line book.

What you are illustrating in these classic Christian right political and economic misinformed fallacies is a complete lack of understanding in capitalism in general, deregulation, cost vs benefit taxation arguments, Free Market capitalism, what corporatism is as the primary element of the fascism from the last great economic crash, and politics in general that must stem from all the radically wrong right wing Christian political propagandist lies spewed out in evangelical churches across America. You may not be blinded by faith in some imaginary Christian Sky God any longer but you still are blinded by faith [hence irrational] in their worship of an evil form of capitalism coming directly from this 'deregulation of corporate greed' feeding only the wealthiest class of Americans at the expense of every one else!

EXC wrote:
I'm pretty libertarian on social issues, so I don't have any problems with homosexuals.

That's a big plus despite your lingering conservative Christian fallacies you spew out here.  But many libertarians claim to be liberatarian when they really are not like the Texass Evangelical anti-secularist Ron Paul himself. I suggest you validate your claim for your own self by doing as Matt Shizzle did to confirm you're this Libertarian you seem to think you are by taking the political compass test here. I'm sure you'll end up somewhere on the economic right, but you also may end up on the 'authoritarian' right as well - at least if you're honest about your political view when you take this test...

EXC wrote:
In fact you have the irration idea that government can be everyone's sugar daddy just as the Christians believe and invisible man can be everyone's sugar daddy..

Who are you arguing against here because it surely can't be me!  All I can say is you are either frickin looney tunes and/or you have a complete misunderstanding of what the liberal left supports and what the Christian right supports [which is inherently one of the same as the GOP from politically merging with it]  The Christian Right with the Republian Party and their 'culture of death' surely do not support social services from their 'daddy government' benefiting anyone or anything other than corporations, corporatism, and perpetual war from a radical right  theocracy...

The radical Christian right wrongly identified as 'conservative' does not want universal health care or a Fed department of education at all! They only the Christian right wants is an authoritarian right war mongering government for corporations that's against Islam and to become a full blown formally declared authoritarian [same as totalitarian] dominionist theocracy rather than the 'functioning theocracy' it is today. Do you even comprehend why the GOP and its religious right supporters seek to abolish the Fed Department of Education? They want a tax paid public education system abolished so it education is funded by 'faith based initiatives' at a state and federal level that pays for more private Christian schools to indocrinate all the kiddies!

Removal of the separation of state and religion [Christianity] spelled out in the 1st amendment has been a stated platform agenda of the Texass Bush-GOP since before the 21st century. "Our Party pledges to do everything within its power to restore the original intent of the First Amendment of the United States and dispel the myth of the separation of Church and State." That quote is taken straight from the GOP Texas Republican Party Platform [pdf download]. The still pending Constitution 'Restoration' Act on the congress floor, like most GOP euphemisms, has the opposite affect that destroys the 1st amendment and replaces a democracy already overthrown with a full blown formally declared 'Dominionist' Christian theocracy that is today functionally present to a lesser informal degree.  

You can watch an ominous MTV attention deficit disorder flash version on this treasonous TexAss GOP platform here mentioning their intent on abolishing the Fed Dept of Education and/or right click to download the actual pdf platform itself here that essentially hasn't changed since the Bushes took over TexAss to rewrite  this far right Christian GOP platform into the treasonous document it still is today.

I never said anywhere, nor do I 'irrationally' believe the US government should be 'everyone's sugar daddy'.   Like any sane American I do believe we should actually get something BACK from our taxes in a decent public educational system AND universal health care just like any other civilized and developed society wants, expects and gets [unlike here] from about the same amount of taxes we pay our Fed, state and local Governments from a litany of taxes.  spends over 50% on in imperialistic OFFENSIVE [not defensive] wars, the military industrial complex and many more trillions for corporatist bail outs to further criminally support  a corrupt financial industry it allowed to become corrupt due to its deregulation of corporate greed.

EXC wrote:
I've just debated enough people who believe in the welfare state to realize they only want to "help" the less fortunate with other people's money because they get some kind of high from feeling like their helping when they are doing nothing. Reality doesn't matter when your advocating wealth redistribution with other people's money, only that you feel like you 'care'.

Jeez your claims are beyond fallacies that must come from the radical right lunatic fringe.  What welfare state are you dribbling on about?  The one that provides US taxpayer  'welfare' from bailouts to the tune of trillions for Corporations and Wall Street Robber Barons once they've gone bankrupt after ripping off and pocketing billions from corrupt lending practices caused by ever increased Government deregulation? Or is it all the ever decreasing government budgets that don't help all the starving and homeless middle and working class Americans now starving and homeless from this 'deregulated corporate greed' while paying over 50% of their taxes into GOP sponsored wars of aggression based in BLATANT LIES? 

Perhaps it's the 'welfare state' your thinking of that went to got its massive amount of money from the 'misplaced and/or lost pentagon tax funding to the tune $2.3 TRILLION DOLLARS! Imagine all the illegal secret government programs that amount of 'lost' taxpayer dollars went to support and/or how many politicians' pockets it managed to find its way into!  This $2.3 TRILLION in US taxpayer dollars mysteriously 'lost' by the Pentagon was conveniently announced by Rumsfield just one day prior to 9-11 as if these traitors knew such a shocking announcement would be buried on the last page of the news due to the 9-11 attacks.. Read Conveniently 1 day prior to 9-11 Rumsfield publicly admits to Pentagon having 'lost' $2.3 TRILLION in taxpayer bucks

Either you lost these debates 'with enough people' and refuse to admit it [likely the case from your deluded comprehension of politics] or you were debating some real morons who like you have absolutely no comprehension of what's going on in the world around them....

EXC wrote:
  You advocate a permanent welfare/wealth redistribution system to reward people who fail to get an education and become productive members of society..

Again, you are presenting these fallacious arguments to who?  It surely ain't me there EXC!  I surely didn't  advocate any sort of "permanent welfare/wealth redistribution system to reward people who fail to get an education and become productive members of society."   I simply

What i do advocate is a decent public education with funding behind it that Bush has decimated in his euphemistic 'No Child Left Behind Act' leaving every child behind in public education  - except of course the lunatic doomsday evangelicals children who will go straight to their imaginary heaven when raptured to sit at the right hand of Bush! I advocate actually getting something back from taxes all other developed and civilized industrial nations do get from their taxes in a decent public educational system and universal health care WE DO NOT GET in return for our taxes. What we get instead is trillions of dollars of our taxes spent on wars fought for Corporate America's to rape a countries natural resources from what called privatization  that years ago was referred to as 'plunder'.  What we get is a corporatist government forcing us to bail out the corruption in the financial industry that causing it to go bankrupt [after looting its victims from corrupt lending practices]  to the tune of trillions that they allowed by deregulating their corporate greed for decades now!

Perhaps you should try actually reading some rational reality based news or even news from Asia, and europe rather than the inaccuracy in Media you mimic like a 'Ditto head' from propagandist Christian lies spread on republicanazi web sites like AIM [for Accuracy in Media - kind a like 'fair and balanced from Fox Fake News;-]

Try reading and comprehending the latest news in these more recent articles telling you where more trillions of our tax dollars are being forcibly taken to bail out financial institutions

Anti-Islam radical right [Christofascist] Hate DVD targets swing state voters with Christian hate mongering of Muslims
What McCain-Palin have in common w/the 3rd Reich: Nazi Germany too was built on empty, meaningless platitudes
Like it or Not, if American You Own Junk Bonds: But don't expect a tax rebate as a return on this Fed forced investment
Fed Reserve private internat'l bank corporation & cartel that makes money by printing & loaning money at interest
Collapse of AIG is on the scale of 1929 Crash created conditions for emergence of Fascism : In Europe and America
Days to stop $700 Billion Stick-Up & Fascist Power Grab : Corporatism IS Fascism from AGI's CEO still in control
Article calls Bush's Wall Street bailout Fascism : Communism & Fascism are flip sides of same authoriatarian coin
US Taxpayers bail out foreign speculators on top of Wall Street robber barons: $125 billion goes to banks outside US

EXC wrote:
 You want to give more wealth to the governments that screwed up education so badly in the first place that people become so indigent and dependent. You advocate having society live beyond our means. So attack me with emotional personal attacks and misrepresentations, this just shows how irrational you are...

Well I can't help but poke fun at your lack of comprehension about the world around you EXC. Were did you learn to debate? From a book called 'Debating for Dummies' or was it the "Lard Ass Limbaugh Lunatic Fringe School for Right Wingnut Ditto Heads"? You need to concentrate on actual real statements I have made to make any points in argument that rejects them as being fallacious in some way, shape or form.

What I advocate and didn't state is for the fricking illegal installed government to stop spending trillions of our tax dollars to kill 10s of 1000s in our name in offensive wars based in lies.  What I advocate is for our fraudulent government who broke its contract of human rights with 'we the people' long ago by rending the bill of rights null and void to honor that contract or suffer the consequences like in Europe where governments fear it citizens instead of US fearing our government!  

What I advocate is for that $2.3 Trillion tax dollars conveniently 'misplaced' by our US Govt, or that $3 trillion for the Iraq War based in Gov't lies that  will minimally cost [obviously too late now to get that back], OR use the estimated $2.5 TRILLION in Fed Bailouts that will forcibly be taken from US tax payers for financial industry corruption our own government helped to create by deregulating corporate greed for decades - to instead go for:

  • Universal Health Care for Every American
  • Fight AIDS in developing nations
  • Search for a cure to cancer
  • Switch to solar power (all of America)
  • Fund research for alternatives to oil
  • National rapid transit system
  • Clean up pollution (in major cities)
  • Achieve universal literacy
  • End hunger and poverty related diseases
  • Increase sustainable organic produce in the US
  • Finish repairing the damage done by Hurricane Katrina
  • Cure a deadly disease
  • Sustainable agriculture education, worldwide
  • Non-violent leadership training (1 year) for 10 million leaders
  • Food, shelter & vet care for unwanted pets
  • End animal testing
  • K-12 arts and music education
  • New clothing, shoes, coats and schools supplies for 10 million children
  • Build 100 new schools
  • Pay 1,000 teachers’ salaries
  • Give all firefighters a raise
  • Plant 1,000,000 trees
  • National Park Service Annual Budget
  • Help rebuild Iraq
  • Send Bush to Mars (1 way ticket)
And that still will not eat up $3 Trillion Dollars! Do realize a trillion is a 1000 billions and a billion is a 1000 millions. From What Would You Buy with the $3 Trillion Spent on the Iraq War?

What I advocate is an honest government that not only impeaches a president for crimes against the nation, but human rights war crimes around the world, and a host of treasonous crimes that will go unmentioned here.  What I also advocate is that overwhelming numbers of politicians in God's Own Party [GOP] of drug addicted and drunken Republican pedophiles, extortionists, embezzlers, rapists, terrorists, murderers, perjurers, and felonious criminals be declared an illegal party of fraudulent politicians and completely disbanded. 

Political Corruption poses one of the gravest threats to a nation's economic growth, democracy, and political stability in countries across the globe at all stages of political and economic evelopment. Corruption scandals have toppled governments in both major industrial countries and developing countries. The cost to taxpayers is incalculable. Corruption steals money from social programs and services. (Bribes, kickbacks and inflated pricing add 5 percent to 30 percent to the cost of public projects, according to various estimates.) It erodes public confidence in government and undermines the legitimacy of political parties and their leaders. The criminal nature of our government goes far beyond mass murder by the Bush-GOP cabal of felonious criminals in the white house that also includes 100s of predominantly republican politicians already indicted or convicted in a court of law.

Many nations across the globe have been forced to disband their corrupt political parties for illegal activities of a similar or lesser nature than the egregious crimes committed by America's republican party. Legislation in many nations has been passed that is far more stringent than in America that limits opportunist political parties and their politicians from engaging in corrupt and illegal activities.

Americans cannot continue to shrug off the rampant corruption evidenced in both parties, but particularly the republican party as if it is politics as normal that the Italians grew to expect and accept from their politicians for decades. It's gone far beyond slush funds, bribery, extortion and the pedophilia well known in the republican party to fraudulent elections that has brought the death of democracy and the demise of our republic. If we don't fertilize that proverbial [Boston] Tree of liberty Jefferson spoke of, we will have no liberty left to regain the freedoms already lost. "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it's natural manure." Thomas Jefferson, Nov. 13, 1787

EXC wrote:
 Since you "know how to think", please explain how a society can survive with so many people living beyond their means? And a government living beyond our means? How it can survive with a system that rewards failure and punishes success? This is why we have this financial crisis this week....

Look beyond the obvious of a government living beyond its means. Think of what it has spending wasting trillions of tax dollars on to have reached this state of bankruptcy it's now in and why the Christian Bush-GOP religious right wants a bankrupt Fed government.  I'm not going to spoon feed you the answers because you still do need to learn HOW to think by eliminating all the Christian right wingnut fallacies [and lies] you're presenting here.

I suggest you try to learn HOW to think for yourself EXC.  Read and study Classical Logic, as well as informal logic and learn about all the fallacies [including some of the ad hominems I couldn't help including in this post - so excuse me;-] Study some real philosophy that your former fiction based religious 'philosophy denigrates or ignores like it does logic. Learn the stark differences between an Aristotelean life philosophy and Platonic life philosophy giving you the origins of religious dogma vs naturalism. Find out why Aristotle and Plato clashed between there 2 philosophies for life. Here's a great article called Avoiding Plato’s Republic in America: Anarchy is the Only Hope Understand Christianity's Philosophical Roots in Platonism

 This age old argument between the life philosophy of Aristotle and Plato can be summed up here in the following context for the MTV Attention Deficit Generation out there: Aristotle is to Naturalism as Plato is to Dualism; Unification of mind and body is to Naturalism as Separation of soul and body is to Dualism; Evolution is to Naturalism as Creationism is to Dualism; Naturalism is to Atheism as Dualism is to Monotheism; Reason, Science and Rationalist is to Aristotle as Faith, Religion and 'Believer' is to Plato. The age old debate looms evident with Logic founded by Aristotle as Christianity found its basis in Plato. 

But that's just a beginning. Think about the not so obvious reasons for why the US in this financial 'armegeddon' and you'll have your answers. Contemplate the predominant reasons the dollar has been going on a continual downward spiral for the last few years with why the US Treasury is far more in dept by their own admittance than is ever reported in the news.  Learn why this devalued 'fiat' dollar based only in a 'God we Trust' with a Fed Reserve printing press gone wild creating even more inflation has helped to create this most devastating economic collapse since the great depression. Read WHY we are A Nation of Village Idiots : A Nation of Suckers : Let Wall Street Burn : Screw Wall Street : America Is ... Broke

Think about where over 50% of our Fed Tax dollars went before clicking here to find out. Contemplate how and why our Fed Gov't and politicians have been deregulating corporations starting mostly in the Reagan era and why they gradually reversed FDR policies that helped to remedy the economic devastation in US created in the Robber Baron era of the 20s leading to the Great Depression. Understand the connection between corporatism and fascism that developed in the 20s and 30s around the globe and what these political and economic ideologies are rather than what you may 'think' they might be [because you don't evidence understanding in either].  Look to the past in US history to comprehend the present and what may happen differently in the future as a result of what has been going on since the fall of democray at the start of the 21st century [technically 2001]  Future Fiction or Reality? America Loses World War 3 in 2045 : The Late, Great American Republic: A Report From 2050

First though forget absolutely everything indoctrinated and propagandized into you by the Christian Right to be able to relate more rationally with the past, present and a possible future.. Most importantly READ the links and don't stop reading till you can better understand what I present here and stay away from the repeated fallacies you present here that are found almost exclusively on right wingnut [Christian since one of the same] news websites....[Note- this doesn't seem to be letting me correct errors in spelling or grammer or alter the post for whatever reason]

And good luck....

If there was a God, Man wouldn't have had to invent him [reversing Voltaire's famous quote].


deludedgod
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Quote:End animal

Quote:

End animal testing

Everything you proposed sounded like an excellent initiative with the exception of this one. I would be out of job without animal testing. In molecular and cellular biology, we use several organisms as study models for various taxonomies. We pick these "ideal organisms" because they are easy to study, and using homology and evolutionary biology, we can make inferences about other organisms which are harder to study. Thus, we have a "model organism" representing prokaryota, a model organism representing protozoa, several representing fungi (for mycologists), plants and animals. One should not draw the conclusion that these are necessarily the only organisms studied, just the most commonly studied organisms.

Thus, we use E. coli as the primary model of a prokaryotic organism, hence earning it the distinction of the most studied organism, and that which has the most known about it. For eukaryotic protozoa, we study the baker's yeast. For plants, the model organism used is the mustard weed. When we talk about "animal testing" we therefore refer to the three models used in study of the animal kingdom:

1. Mice

2. Fruit flies (Drosophila)

3. Humans

Considering "animal testing" in this context, one can quickly appreciate why molecular biology as a discipline would basically shut down without animal testing. There would be no developmental biology, no pharmacology, no medical research, most of cell biology would gring to a halt. Eukaryotic protozoa can only take us so far. Insofar as, for medical purposes, most of the research will pertain to molecular pathways in multicellar animalia, it is not possible to study genetic circuitry of animals, developmental pathways in embryogenesis, molecular oncology, inter-cellular pathways of animals, without, well...animals.

Then again, when you say "end animal testing" perhaps you refer to particular unethical animal testing. Presumably you disagree with testing on chimps or apes. So do I. Surely, however, you could not see a problem with using mice or fruit flies in medical biology, as I do as part of my job?

 

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

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I AM GOD AS YOU
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 Love ya, and thanks again

 Love ya, and thanks again ,  Adnihilo  ....

   No lies,  never more , much work to do , in the name of FUN for ALL .... this very day should be fun, why not ???  Fun is like my religion, who is against productive FUN ?  Google 'Bob Black' .... a middle man, not really a radical , as the brainwashed masses would perceive .....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Black#The_Abolition_of_Work

    We can all most surly agree .... we've been taught to surrender, to fuck ourselves, so stop it already .... EAT THE RICH , Let's get the party going , all effort, blood sweat and tears,  to the party of FUN for ALL .... NO more MASTERS .... caring servants to fun religion instead .... FUN first ....  abolish all rich work slave owners ....

Fun stuff, food, shelter, clothing, entertainment for all ....  health care for all .... WHAT ? , we humans can't have such a world .... says who ?????????? 

           

   


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Only the biggest

Only the biggest anti-testing nuts have a problem with testing on mice, and I don't even think they have a problem with testing on fruit flies.

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I can't see that IB being

I can't see that IB being used in the US. The outrage by parents when more than half the kids in a school failed (possibly like 90% in some schools) would be enough the politicians would either vote to get rid of it or be voted out in favor of ones who did. My high school Sr year was 1991-1992 when standards were less than now, and even then more than 20% of the class either failed or dropped out. I actually failed Chemistry and LIbrary research in HS and almost failed Physics and Trigonometry.

Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team


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MattShizzle wrote:I can't

MattShizzle wrote:

I can't see that IB being used in the US. The outrage by parents when more than half the kids in a school failed (possibly like 90% in some schools) would be enough the politicians would either vote to get rid of it or be voted out in favor of ones who did.

Good point.  Just look at the outrage over the exit exams in California.  How does this work in other countries?  What kind of say do parents have in the curriculum of schools?

"I am that I am." - Proof that the writers of the bible were beyond stoned.


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To Be or to Work?

deludedgod wrote:
Quote:
End animal testing

Everything you proposed sounded like an excellent initiative with the exception of this one. I would be out of job without animal testing.


I just copy pasted that list of initiatives from HERE showing a far more humanistic way to make use of a few trillion US taxpayer dollars than how these same few trillion in US taxes [borrowed by the Feds with interest from being bankrupt already] have so far been conveniently 'lost' [$2.3 Trillion by the Pentagon] wasted on a war based on lies we continue to support by paying taxes, and the estimated $2 to $3 Trillion the Feds will end up forcing US taxpayers to pay in bailing out financial Industry corruption the Fed 'motivated' by deregulating corporate greed... 

The damning results of where 'Our Faith-Full of Shit Less than Human Hominid Leaders' and its culture of death has taken US just in the 21st century alone vividly illustrates the stark difference between where a humanist government would take US in comparison to where we've now been taken by our theocratic Christian motivated Government...

Personally I'm partial to quite a few of those initiatives, but ending animal testing isn't one of them. PETA is a rather crazy authoritarian organization.... I eat 'some animals with faces';-] and seem to like my 'animal companions' more than most humans [well monotheists anyhow;-] but animal testing is a needed option to help cure disease, human or animal....

I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:
Love ya, and thanks again ,  Adnihilo  ....

No lies,  never more , much work to do , in the name of FUN for ALL .... this very day should be fun, why not ???  Fun is like my religion, who is against productive FUN ?  Google 'Bob Black' .... a middle man, not really a radical , as the brainwashed masses would perceive .....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Black#The_Abolition_of_Work

We can all most surly agree .... we've been taught to surrender, to fuck ourselves, so stop it already .... EAT THE RICH , Let's get the party going , all effort, blood sweat and tears,  to the party of FUN for ALL .... NO more MASTERS .... caring servants to fun religion instead .... FUN first ....  abolish all rich work slave owners .... Fun stuff, food, shelter, clothing, entertainment for all ....  health care for all .... WHAT ? , we humans can't have such a world .... says who ??????????


Always nice to know you like what I got to say 'God' ;- ]  I'm so glad to see our great minds [or great legends in our own minds;-] do think alike! Bob Black's essays are great!!! I just looked and found I was so impressed with him that I'd saved his essays in doc format way back in 2002... And I've personally taken his essays to heart to some degree by invoking a 'less is more' attitude towards 'consumerism' to enjoy at least some partial freedom from 'indentured servitude' [or shit I hate to do while slaving for sociopathic corporate slugs].  

For me reaching my dreams, or cherished desires vastly overshadows money, or any amount of money my cherished dreams/desires might provide me. It is why I can't work 'monkey jobs' any longer that most people work at doing shit I just can't stand doing.  It is why I can't sacrifice my own personal values and dreams for what is really 'indentured servitude' to the dreams [expressed typically in greed] of others. It is why money is really irrelevant to me beyond the basics needed for survival. 'Things' that money gives me do not make me happy any longer [I know this because I once had lots of 'things' and made lots of money in some very nefarious ways;-] but situations I know I thrive in and enjoy 'being' in make me very happy. Sadly for last decade or more, every time I go back to work in some corporate monkey job I've ended up being forced by corporate designated 'Slug Execudroid Masters' to lie, cheat and steal from the American public.

The last time I had a 'dependent' corporate job I turned the corporate white collar crooks into the FBI, Secret Service, NV Attorney General and the Post Master General for mail and credit card fraud to the tune of at least 5 million a day from Amx, MC, Visa and Discover. I'd hacked into their private corporate email accounts from their network servers so had solid proof. Since it was not long after 911, the Feds took so long to get around to investigating these white collar criminals, they essentially ended up looking the other way to fight imaginary terrorists supposedly lurking around every corner rather than protecting Americans from a nationwide fraud... On a side note, the 'president' of this corporation owning a controlling stock share of this company used to try to delude employees into believing how honest the business was in corporate wide meeting by telling us all his father was minister! I knew for sure they were crooks after hearing that!

So I seek a type of freedom in thought and expression money may be able to buy to some extent, but seems to end up being a shallow form of freedom from a constant need for more money to feel free..  There seems to be a greater freedom found in 'freedom from want', or at least not wanting so much of that shit our consumer driven society tells us we should want. Behavioral scientists have learned  that Low Self-Esteem and Materialism Goes Hand in Hand. There's a multitude of Americans who continually needs to validate themselves from buying and owning more shit, otherwise known as consumerism. The greater their need to buy and have more shit, the lower the self esteem.

We live in the most consumer driven society and generation the world has never seen before - and all that shit we've been indoctrinated to 'need' is just that - shit. I suppose I'm in a way honoring the mantra of the 60s hippie generation expressed by Jimi Hendrix in 'Are you experienced?' A mantra that directly refers  to that old hippie adage 'it's not what you have, it's what you've experienced' in life that's relevant...

However I don't necessarily agree with Bob Black that 'No one should ever work', but I do think no one should have to or be forced to work!  Unfortunately though with labor a commodity, and those exchanging their time in labor for money as literally indentured servants, American citizens have been left with a money system that enslaves us all; unless you are fortunate enough to have won the genetic wheel of fortune from being born independently wealthy into that top 1% class of 'Masters' owning and controlling 90% of Americas wealth and resources....

Class pervades all in this American capitalistic system just as Adam Smith, the founder and father of Capitalism, even admitted in his 'Wealth of Nations' capitalist manifesto from comprehending how easily the system could be manipulated in the real world to the benefit of only a small percentage at the top. However I've written my own manifesto of sorts identifying the inherent faults and flaws of capitalism its creator and founder didn't fully identify to our Founding fathers. I call it 'Masters, Slaves and Outlaw in a Hierarchical Capitalism Society'. You might of read it already though 'I AM GOD', but here it is anyways 'submitted for your approval' [jeez, I gotta stop pretending to be Rod Serling!]   

The hierarchical control of wage labor has the effect of alienating workers from their own work, and so from themselves. Workers no longer govern themselves during work hours, so they are by any definition no longer free. Capitalism, by treating labor as analogous to any other commodity, or resource, denies it any key distinction between the financial and the physical resources; that is to say the Human Resources are inseparability from its bearer [3 commodity resources in any capitalist business: physical, financial and labor, or human]. Labor, unlike other 'property' and/or business resource is endowed with will and agency.

Those who pay and give the orders, owners and managers, also known as Masters as recently as the 19th century in America, are at the top of this hierarchy and those who obey, the indentured servants, or wage slaves by any other name, are at the bottom. This of course leaves capitalism by its very nature as hierarchical, exploitative, and for the most part, oppressive.

The hierarchical control of wage labor alienating workers from their own work has sadly left over 3 out of every 4 Americans hating their job[s]. The fact is most companies in Corporate America are simply rotten places to work mainly from being run by barely skilled sociopaths who've back stapped and ass kissed their way up to the top only to force alienated worker bees to waste what limited time left in life by exchanging it for a paycheck that will never be big enough to lift them out of their indentured slave servitude.

This hierarchial system within capitalism is not at all complicated when breaking it down to its primary root levels.  There at first appears to be three classes in the hierarchical system of capitalism: Masters, Slaves and Outlaws. You will always be in one of these hiearchial 'classes' within capitalism - Master, Slave, or Outlaw until everyone in this country is not in any of these classes.

However Outlaws are really nothing more than Runaway Slaves working outside corporate America's government sanctioned capitalist system of futile feudalism. They really aren't outlaws because typically they don't live outside the US constitution as our very own government does as the very real outlaws.  So that leaves only two real classes of participants in this Capitalistic feudal system we exist in here in America.

It is a two class society we all vacillate back and forth in from varying degrees in its Master and Slave hiearchy at various times in the day depending on the situation, the time and the place. These two Master and Slave classes are not really defined by how much money one has, nor even how it's made. Class is purely about dominance and submission in this hierarchial capitalistic society.

Indentured Servants, or the 99% of us needing to earn money to survive, submit at work to exist due to the inherent hierarchial nature of capitalism deeming them this mere commodity expressed earlier on.  Even a class society is not really composed of classes, but varying degrees of surrender to control over our lives, or dominance over others to control them - dominating at times while submitting at others.

These two hierachial classes are but two poles on a continuum. It is however a horizontal continuum, not a vertical one as most will perceive it. It just looks vertical. Appearances though are everything in our American two class capitalist system of Masters and Slaves. If it looks vertical it may as well be, because we act as if it were. Maybe that's why vertebrates dress up and posture. We see what we look for. Pay particular attention to this next paragraph Teri in how I relate consensual and nonconsensual BDSM style Master-Slave relationships to these two hierachial classes of Master-Slave in our capitalist society.

Society is not composed of individuals either. Society is composed of relationships. These are relationships formed between individuals and groups of individuals. Each of these relationships are composed of interactions. There are only two fundamental kinds of relationship interactions, consensual and nonconsensual. Talking on the phone is consensual. Receiving Telemarking calls without permission is nonconsensual. Hiring on as a mercenary is consensual. Getting maimed by a terrorist's nail bomb is nonconsensual. Agreeing to go on a date with someone is consenual. Being raped on a date by someone when not wanting sex with them is nonconsensual.

The bottom line, or primary point I want to make here becomes: As long as labor is a commodity, time is a commodity. When time is a commodity, life itself becomes a commodity. As a labor commodity, we all have a price affixed to ourselves as this commodity in the labor market. Work as an indentured servant in a capitalist system is only slightly less degrading than having a price sign hanging around our heads as a real slave on the auction block back in colonial times. The price for and on our lives varies.

For most all of us in a capitalist system the big question ultimately and individually becomes 'at what price am I willing to sell my life for'? It seems to always come down to the highest possible bidder we can find, or how much we're willing to sacrifice to survive in life....

Anyone else see the capitalist 'world of work' in this way?
  

If there was a God, Man wouldn't have had to invent him [reversing Voltaire's famous quote].


MattShizzle
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I definitely see our system

I definitely see our system that way. It is like slavery in a way - you can choose who you have as a master but the vast majority can't choose to not have one at all. The term "wage slavery" was in use at least a century ago (it was used in Upton Sinclair's "The Jungle. " )

Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team


Adnihilo
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To Be or to Work?

EDIT: Double post


 


I AM GOD AS YOU
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Good read Adnihilo , and

Good read Adnihilo , and rather Bob Black like, I happily say. Yeah, amusing Bob is a little hard to understand and of course put to practice, but it serves well, as to ask us to challenge our ideas and society.  Replace work with fun, is like a love parable, saying we would be more productive, less lazy, apathetic, bored, criminal and stressed, if we could ever better adopt this FUN concept. How, is the partially unanswered and debated problem we must continue to try and better answer.

As you and many philosophies make the important point of misdirected greed and consumerism as the way to achieve happiness, rather than simple security and more free time to explore and enjoy the wonders of life. We've created a tread mill to a false idea of happiness. Also, how can one be personally truly happy with so much unnecessary suffering in this world?

Clever Alan Watts has a video etc about wrong work attitudes, where he conducts a symphony while washing dishes, and dealing with other mundane work. Sure life cannot be all fun, but it certainly should not be drudgery. How to collectively change  this hell on earth is the age old question.

The likes of you, Bob, Alan are needed, helpful, and appreciated.  A happy society is a more productive peaceful society. So indeed, what's the problem, the solution ??? Well, much of it is obvious, and fixable ....

So indeed YES friend, to your concerned question, "Anyone else see the capitalist 'world of work' in this way?"

   P.S. Bob Black is in many wild podcasts and makes interesting fun listening. Here's a straight forward one with no far our music ....

Episode 093 - click the pod button, not the title.

http://radiofreeliberty.libsyn.com/