Mind/body relationship

OmegaSupreme
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Mind/body relationship

Hello, I discovered this great website last week and have been browsing through your posts and have to say that I'm very impressed.  So glad there are good people like you all working on figuring important things out and combating ignorance.  Forgive me if this issue has already been beaten to death here but what are your opinions on the relationship between the mind and body?  On the askearth.com site there is a man who claims to be scientific but he believes we are spirits occupying a physical body and our spirits are eternal.  He says cells have a physical part and a living part and that we cannot see the living part.  I've superficially researched scientific papers on the net which seem to suggest that parts of the brain such as the thalamus, if damaged, can dramatically alter our thoughts or perceptions... Also, it seems that there is an agreement that intelligence is related to neurological connections in the brain.  So there is a definate link between the two but that may not mean that our thoughts are completely a result of physical processes.  I am not an expert in any field.  Just a thirtysomething man going back to college and hoping to one day obtain a B.S. in physics.  Like many of you I find it very difficult to believe in creation and find abiogenesis and evolution very reasonable.  But I'm ignorant on the mind/body question.  Please give your input.  Thanks.


I AM GOD AS YOU
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One needs the other, as we

One needs the other, as we need the earth, air, sun, universe, as all is one. What the heck does "spiritual" mean, except to mean mysterious, as another name for the unknown? Ummm, what isn't mysterious and what is not connected?

  What is time, matter, energy, consciousness? Are they also not one? 

           Hey .... Welcome to the rocking RRS.

Isn't the whole of consciousness something more than what we call self aware? In the absolute sense of what consciousness is, who can assume a rock has zero consciousness? Wish I knew the real answer / theory of "everything" !     


Jacob Cordingley
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I'm fairly certain that the

I'm fairly certain that the mind is simply a physical part of our bodies. This part of our bodies is located in a large grey organ called the brain. There is for a start no evidence for any kind of supernatural "spirit" or "soul", this is quite simply the God of the Gaps fallacy in a different guise. Secondly there is no need for us to assume that any such a "soul" needs to exist anyway since there is an overwhelming amount of evidence to suggest that all thought processes and consciousness can be explained by the firings of millions of neurones.

A friend of mine (who I'm never quite sure what his stance is) asked me how I could explain all thought and consciousness in terms of the firings of neurones. I'll point out that I am a philosopher, not a neuroscientist. I referred to a computer, or an electrical musical instrument. In the first case I have no idea how a computer manages to display a picture on a screen, it is simply just electrical current passing through a complex maze of wires. How does a computer know to display the letter 's' on the screen when I press the corresponding key? The point is, I can't explain this, but we all know computers are purely physical machines. Now the brain is a much more complex computer; while a computer might have three or four possible connections to any one part, the brain has thousands. With electronic musical instruments sounds is transferred through a jack lead to an amplifier which then produces the sound to the desired pitch and tone. In this case there is no complex machinery, the jack lead carrying the signal is just a single wire, and speakers (a friend of mine in the music tech industry has taken them apart) are simply vibrating peices of paper in a cone. So how does it manage to produce a crystal clear sound? How can it amplify a voice to sound as a voice should? I don't know, but I know that it is a purely physical phenomenon.


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Jacob wrote:how I could

Jacob wrote:
how I could explain all thought and consciousness in terms of the firings of neurones. I'll point out that I am a philosopher, not a neuroscientist.

That reminds me of a philosopher's joke: "yes, we know this works in reality, but we want to know whether it would work on principle!" Dan Dennett has (also jokingly) expressed a similar point.

I agree that 'consciousness' is but a physical consecuence of the workings of the brain. There is no Ghost in the Machine, or soul, or whatever, that makes consciousness possible. Unfortunately, the study of consciousness is a difficult one, and made more difficult as some researchers continue to try to find some 'special properties' of the brain, and consider that consciousness is not reductible to brain activity. They are trying to save the concept of 'soul', althought they would not probably put it that way.

Here are some interesting youtube from Dan Dennett explaining consciousness:

Dan Dennett: The Magic of Consciousness Part 1

Dan Dennett: The Magic of Consciousness Part 2

Dan Dennett: The Magic of Consciousness Part 3

Dan Dennett: The Magic of Consciousness Part 4

Dan Dennett: The Magic of Consciousness Part 5

Dan Dennett: The Magic of Consciousness Part 6


Eloise
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Jacob Cordingley wrote:I

Jacob Cordingley wrote:

I referred to a computer, or an electrical musical instrument. In the first case I have no idea how a computer manages to display a picture on a screen, it is simply just electrical current passing through a complex maze of wires. How does a computer know to display the letter 's' on the screen when I press the corresponding key? The point is, I can't explain this, but we all know computers are purely physical machines. Now the brain is a much more complex computer; while a computer might have three or four possible connections to any one part, the brain has thousands. With electronic musical instruments sounds is transferred through a jack lead to an amplifier which then produces the sound to the desired pitch and tone. In this case there is no complex machinery, the jack lead carrying the signal is just a single wire, and speakers (a friend of mine in the music tech industry has taken them apart) are simply vibrating peices of paper in a cone. So how does it manage to produce a crystal clear sound? How can it amplify a voice to sound as a voice should? I don't know, but I know that it is a purely physical phenomenon.

Though I agree, on principle Sticking out tongue with making the analogy of a computer's operation to model brain function, after some thought I've come around to consider it a bit misleading. Unlike a computer which from it's very basic evolution requires modification strictly by addition of software and network adaptation in order to compile information, a human brain is modified in it's lifetime more generally by reduction. That is, we adapt from birth to focus and filter (most generally) stimulus rather than to access it, this is a major difference between computers and brains.

That's not to say that the human brain doesn't add compilers to its function throughout life, of course we do, however, it is also true that we do so to the neglect and ultimately to the obliteration of a large part of our data handling capacity. Computers don't do this, the evolution of computers is invariably the furthering and expansion of computational function, to consider a human brain in its evolution over a lifetime behaving this way would be basically deceptive, what a functioning grown human brain processes is a mere blip on the scale of what it ignores.

I am inclined to think this is an important point in the question of the mind body relationship. Philosophically I lean monist which means I have no problem at all with the proposition that brains are purely physical, however, I do contest the limits that some would place on what 'purely physical' can mean, there is a lot more purely physical information that is potentially perceptible by the human psyche (tongue twister not intended there) and it is not even controversial to point out that we tend to rely heavily on a really narrow stock of compilers when using those brains.

It's not hard to put two and two together to conceive of the inevitable event of literally changing our minds before too long time passes. Smiling  But moreover, it would suggest that a clear reckoning of the mind body relationship will continue to elude us simply because the relationship is not fixed, it's actually very mutable.

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www.mathematicianspictures.com


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My romantic (?) post above

My romantic (?) post above was just stating my serious hunch, that when we better understand the "material", we will better understand consciousness. Everything is essentially "material". I am not into woo woo new age anything, except for inventing fantacy sci-fi.