Romans 1

AlexTheAtheist
AlexTheAtheist's picture
Posts: 9
Joined: 2008-02-21
User is offlineOffline
Romans 1

I was talking to my friend last night about gay rights, and he said they shouldn't have any of course (as most fundies do). I asked him if he knew where they got that from and about how god hates shrimp and all that. He goes on to say that after Jesus came all the stuff in the old testament was forgiven. So i asked him if there was a new testament quote that says gay marriage is wrong. He came back wtih Romans 1 to Romans 1:34. I was wondering, how do you counter this, because according to his views that is a very legit reason...(I DO NOT THINK ITS RIGHT AT ALL, as most people who are gay are not required to follow anything this stupid book says) So i was wondering if there was an argument against it?

Living life to its fullest, without the need for a "God" Laughing out loud
-
Becoming an Atheist has made my world make sense, but the people in it less and less so.


Rook_Hawkins
RRS CO-FOUNDER
Rook_Hawkins's picture
Posts: 1322
Joined: 2006-02-11
User is offlineOffline
Well, yeah, of course there

Well, yeah, of course there is.  The argument is that the bible is a book which is immoral and intolerant and that alone is reason to reject it.  

Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server, which houses Celebrity Atheists. Books by Rook Hawkins (Thomas Verenna)


nutxaq
nutxaq's picture
Posts: 399
Joined: 2008-04-06
User is offlineOffline
Romans1:20 For the invisible

Romans

1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; that they are without excuse:

1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

God has not made himself "clearly seen", or even felt for that matter. I can't see the wind but I can see its effects. There are any number of things (for instance everything) that can be explained without a supernatural cause. Despite that, god is apparently giving up on us for not acknowledging that which he will not show us.

Why then should people strive to alter behavior that is natural to them and harmless to others? This passage appears to have set the precedent for fundies to demand that other people live according to their rules without establishing the basis for their demands. Either proove the existence of god or proove soundness of his reasoning. This passage does neither. Just like modern day theists.

 

"Faith, Faith is an island in the setting sun,
but proof, proof is the bottom line for everyone."
Proof, Paul Simon

Nothing this hard should taste so beefy.


nikimoto
nikimoto's picture
Posts: 235
Joined: 2008-07-21
User is offlineOffline
This whole page has some

This whole page has some interesting alternative views you might want to check out.

 

www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibc5.htm

 

 


Thomathy
Superfan
Thomathy's picture
Posts: 1861
Joined: 2007-08-20
User is offlineOffline
Rook_Hawkins wrote:Well,

Rook_Hawkins wrote:

Well, yeah, of course there is.  The argument is that the bible is a book which is immoral and intolerant and that alone is reason to reject it.  

Ha!  That's what I was thinking when I was reading:  Ugh... to counter that you ignore the bible.  It's not an authority on anything.

BigUniverse wrote,

"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."


nutxaq
nutxaq's picture
Posts: 399
Joined: 2008-04-06
User is offlineOffline
nikimoto wrote:This whole

nikimoto wrote:

This whole page has some interesting alternative views you might want to check out.

 

www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibc5.htm

That really seems to go to great lengths to pacify more liberal Christians and dissuade them from thinking it's all a bunch of bull shit.

"Faith, Faith is an island in the setting sun,
but proof, proof is the bottom line for everyone."
Proof, Paul Simon

Nothing this hard should taste so beefy.


AlexTheAtheist
AlexTheAtheist's picture
Posts: 9
Joined: 2008-02-21
User is offlineOffline
I agree with nutxag, that

I agree with nutxag, that whole article just passes it off and do hopeful jumps rather than solve the problem that the whole book is a problem. I really need to come up with a strong counter argument, because i have nothing for this really Sad

Living life to its fullest, without the need for a "God" Laughing out loud
-
Becoming an Atheist has made my world make sense, but the people in it less and less so.


Sinphanius
Sinphanius's picture
Posts: 284
Joined: 2008-06-12
User is offlineOffline
Use Romans 1:28; "And even

Use Romans 1:28;
"And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reporbate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;"

It then goes on to talk about all this idiocy about homosexuality being evil or some such.

So really they are Gay only because God made them such, so if you kill them or try to make them straight you are going against God's will.

Or you could break out the big guns and just point out that Jesus Christ himself showed many of the symptoms of being Gay, and none of the symptoms of being straight. That should end the discussion really quickly, though possibly with lots of screaming and storming off.

When you say it like that you make it sound so Sinister...


iwbiek
atheistSuperfan
iwbiek's picture
Posts: 4298
Joined: 2008-03-23
User is offlineOffline
Rook_Hawkins wrote:Well,

Rook_Hawkins wrote:

Well, yeah, of course there is.  The argument is that the bible is a book which is immoral and intolerant and that alone is reason to reject it.  

hey rook, i was a religion major (in a very secular, liberal department) and i recall attending a guest lecture where a guy argued that the greek term used in the new testament actually denotes pederasty, the sexual enslavement of a young boy by an older man, and thus cannot be taken for granted as including consensual homosexual relations.  that was about 7 years ago, so i don't recall his arguments in detail, but they made sense at the time.  my new testament greek course didn't cover any passages on homosexuality (my prof was may more interested on the mythical connections between paul in acts and odysseus), so i can't for myself.  are you aware of this take on it?

not coming to the bible's rescue or anything, just talking shop.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


iwbiek
atheistSuperfan
iwbiek's picture
Posts: 4298
Joined: 2008-03-23
User is offlineOffline
nikimoto wrote:This whole

nikimoto wrote:

This whole page has some interesting alternative views you might want to check out.

 

www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibc5.htm

 

 

aha, here's the pederasty stuff, though not as academically satisfying as the lecture i went to.

as i recall, i don't think the lecturer had a religious agenda behind his argument.  he was just a greek scholar basically saying, "that's not what it fucking means."

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


Rook_Hawkins
RRS CO-FOUNDER
Rook_Hawkins's picture
Posts: 1322
Joined: 2006-02-11
User is offlineOffline
I think the lecturer was

I think the lecturer was full of shit.  (To put it nicely)  The Greek is homoiôs te kai (and likewise also) hoi arsenes (the men) aphentes tên phusikên chrêsin (lit. leaving the natural use) tês thêleias (of women) exekauthêsan en têi orexei (burned in their desire) autos eis allêlous (for one another) arsenes en arsesin (man with man), tên aschêmosunên katergazomenoi (laboring shamelessly).  Clearly Paul is disgusted by two men engaging in what he calls "shameless desire" - in other words, two men engaged in lust with each other.  The lecturer seems to be glossing over this, as do most liberal Christians, as a way of avoiding the immorality of the statement.  The argument Alex needs to use is that the Bible is less moral than he is.  His friends God is less tolerant than man, which is an argument he needs to use.  If his friend continues to dance around, or if he suggests that God is above man's law, Alex needs to bring his friend back to reality - if God's law is better than man's, why is it that to God, intolerance is better than tolerance?  There is no way to get around that issue.  And if Alex's friend would rather be with God than with morality, Alex needs to then bring up the passages in the OT where God commands all homosexuals to be murdered and demand his friend go out and follow God's command.  If he chooses not to, then the friend has already proven he does not follow the Bible nor the Bible's morality.  He has proven he follows his own morality, which he already believes to be more moral (not killing people) and therefore he has already succumbed to the idea that his morals are higher than Gods (by not killing homosexuals outright).  

Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server, which houses Celebrity Atheists. Books by Rook Hawkins (Thomas Verenna)


iwbiek
atheistSuperfan
iwbiek's picture
Posts: 4298
Joined: 2008-03-23
User is offlineOffline
Rook_Hawkins wrote:I think

Rook_Hawkins wrote:

I think the lecturer was full of shit.  (To put it nicely)  The Greek is homoiôs te kai (and likewise also) hoi arsenes (the men) aphentes tên phusikên chrêsin (lit. leaving the natural use) tês thêleias (of women) exekauthêsan en têi orexei (burned in their desire) autos eis allêlous (for one another) arsenes en arsesin (man with man), tên aschêmosunên katergazomenoi (laboring shamelessly).  Clearly Paul is disgusted by two men engaging in what he calls "shameless desire" - in other words, two men engaged in lust with each other.  The lecturer seems to be glossing over this, as do most liberal Christians, as a way of avoiding the immorality of the statement.  The argument Alex needs to use is that the Bible is less moral than he is.  His friends God is less tolerant than man, which is an argument he needs to use.  If his friend continues to dance around, or if he suggests that God is above man's law, Alex needs to bring his friend back to reality - if God's law is better than man's, why is it that to God, intolerance is better than tolerance?  There is no way to get around that issue.  And if Alex's friend would rather be with God than with morality, Alex needs to then bring up the passages in the OT where God commands all homosexuals to be murdered and demand his friend go out and follow God's command.  If he chooses not to, then the friend has already proven he does not follow the Bible nor the Bible's morality.  He has proven he follows his own morality, which he already believes to be more moral (not killing people) and therefore he has already succumbed to the idea that his morals are higher than Gods (by not killing homosexuals outright).  

ok then.

it was purely an academic question.  i certainly wasn't proffering any advice to alex.

btw, i have no idea if the guy was a liberal christian or not.  as i stated above, i don't recall him drawing any religious conclusions from his arguments.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


Eloise
TheistBronze Member
Eloise's picture
Posts: 1808
Joined: 2007-05-26
User is offlineOffline
AlexTheAtheist wrote:I was

AlexTheAtheist wrote:

I was talking to my friend last night about gay rights, and he said they shouldn't have any of course (as most fundies do). I asked him if he knew where they got that from and about how god hates shrimp and all that. He goes on to say that after Jesus came all the stuff in the old testament was forgiven. So i asked him if there was a new testament quote that says gay marriage is wrong. He came back wtih Romans 1 to Romans 1:34. I was wondering, how do you counter this, because according to his views that is a very legit reason...(I DO NOT THINK ITS RIGHT AT ALL, as most people who are gay are not required to follow anything this stupid book says) So i was wondering if there was an argument against it?

Proves Paul wasn't turned on by gay sex, meh neither am I, so what? Romans 1 doesn't state with any authority that it's against God's law or will (sinphanius points out where you can infer the opposite from the text) just that it gives Paul the willies so bad that he thinks it must be symptomatic of godlessness. 

Moreover Paul seems to think that :

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

...

Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

--

ie clearly that homosexuality is a punishment, not a crime...

and is such therein in the sense that it is:

Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity;

--

which would indicate that his beef with homosexuality is a contention that gay = shallow pornographic melodrama.

In conclusion Paul appears to be saying that rejection of God is equivalent to a life of shallow sexual melodrama - and he seems to consider homosexuality as merely symptomatic of that effect.

I'd say it's all probably just one big post hoc fallacy where Paul is responding  like any typical straight bloke desperate to salvage his own egotistical masculinity from the confronting reality of effeminate men. He's unable to reconcile the real world with his ego's expectations of 'blokey blokes' and needs to project blame onto something and away from his confused narrow mind.

But in regard to a Christian saying Gay marriage is wrong courtesy of Romans 1, well...  it doesn't even mention marriage, moreover Paul is not referring to any kind of stable loving relationship there he's relating his low opinion of promiscuity and sexual drama and equivocating it with homosexuality.

Theist badge qualifier : Gnostic/Philosophical Panentheist

www.mathematicianspictures.com


BobSpence
High Level DonorRational VIP!ScientistWebsite Admin
BobSpence's picture
Posts: 5939
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
Eloise, I hope your comment

Eloise, I hope your comment that "Proves Paul wasn't turned on by gay sex" wasn't meant as a serious argument, because it is a bit of a non-sequiter. He may well be "not turned on", but that DOES NOT automatically imply disgust, ie being strongly turned OFF, which is what the text seems to imply.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


Eloise
TheistBronze Member
Eloise's picture
Posts: 1808
Joined: 2007-05-26
User is offlineOffline
BobSpence1 wrote:Eloise, I

BobSpence1 wrote:

Eloise, I hope your comment that "Proves Paul wasn't turned on by gay sex" wasn't meant as a serious argument, because it is a bit of a non-sequiter. He may well be "not turned on", but that DOES NOT automatically imply disgust, ie being strongly turned OFF, which is what the text seems to imply.

Of course it wasn't serious, Bob.  Geez it's hard to crack a joke online innit? something always gets lost in the process.

 

Theist badge qualifier : Gnostic/Philosophical Panentheist

www.mathematicianspictures.com


BobSpence
High Level DonorRational VIP!ScientistWebsite Admin
BobSpence's picture
Posts: 5939
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
Eloise wrote:BobSpence1

Eloise wrote:

BobSpence1 wrote:

Eloise, I hope your comment that "Proves Paul wasn't turned on by gay sex" wasn't meant as a serious argument, because it is a bit of a non-sequiter. He may well be "not turned on", but that DOES NOT automatically imply disgust, ie being strongly turned OFF, which is what the text seems to imply.

Of course it wasn't serious, Bob.  Geez it's hard to crack a joke online innit? something always gets lost in the process.

 

That's OK - I hoped that was it, it would be so out of character for you to make such a logical error.

I was just so sensitive to actual fallacious details in the posts I've been reading lately that I had to make sure....

 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology