The New Atheist Crusaders and their quest for the Unholy Grail
Offline Hey all. It's been a while since I've been on. I appologise, I've been busy.
The title of this forum is the title of a book I just finished reading. It's a catchy title, so I figured it'd be a good way to grab someone's attention on here. The book is written by Becky Garrison.
If her name doesn't sound familiar, that's fine, it shouldn't. So why am I wasting your time telling you about this book? Well, I'm glad you asked. This is a book written by a True Christian. HUH? For all of you who have discussed with me in the past, you understand what I'm talking about and for those of you who haven't you can research my blogs. Caposkia is my name.
Anyway, It's written from the viewpoint of how a true Christian feels about of course the atheists in the world today, but more importantly for you, how she feels about Christians in the world.
This is for all of you arguing with me about how Christians have to be black and white. How you have to follow a religion and there's nothing outside of religion etc. She touches on all of this. I truly think you'll enjoy reading this book and I would like to hear from those of you who have read it if anyone. If not, I"ll wait till someone finishes it. It's not a very long book.
When I first came onto this site, I wanted to discuss directly with those who were involved in the infamous television debate that RRS was involved in about the existence of God with Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron. They didn't have time and the other non-believers I came across were too opinionated to involve themselves in a conversation that made any progress. Instead I got into other debates which for the most part were a lot of fun, but I digress.
Becky mentions this debate as well in her book at the end. This is for all of you on here I've talked to who would not believe me or had other personal issues with the fact that my opinion didn't flow with their idea of a Christian. I will breifly say that I hold her viewpoint when she says that if she was at that debate, she would have "crawled out of that church in shame. "
Simply put, we both agree that both sides put forth deplorable excuses for their side and did not defend their side succesfully. I know I know, many of you will disagree and say that RRS did disprove the existance of God in that debate, but enough with the opinions, I'm saying the other side did just as good of a job proving God. This debate is a poor excuse to not follow Christ and this book talks about those types of Christians.
This book should clarify many misunderstandings of how True Christians are and I hope bring light to a new understanding of our following.
It is written differently than most books, but is an informational peice and uses a lot of researched information. It does focus on the "New Atheists" and is not a book preaching to the masses. As said, it is from the point of view of a True Christian.
enjoy, let me know your thoughts. I would also request, please be respectful in your responses. I'm here to have mature discussions with people.
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I'm sorry, you're right. I like to have fun too, you know that. I'm just worried that people will get a bit carried away as I've seen in other forums and lose complete site of the topic at hand. That's actually what I meant by that. Becky definitely uses it, but she doesn't lose site of the topic at hand in this book.
right! 'cause the Bible says "KILL ALL WHO DO NOT BELIEVE!!!!!!.... Or at least make them feel like a pea in an ocean. " Ref: The book of BS 4:78
Or maybe it's just people out there who want to be noticed and will use any means to do so, in the process give Christ a bad name and give people excuses to hate. The teaching of Jesus is Love. Plain and simple. Explain to me where violence and hatred comes into that teaching... and I want specific references from Jesus' teachings. That would be the New Testament.
Depends on where you want to go with this. With the scientific knowlege the people had at the time, I'd say the understandings written in those ancient scripts are pretty frikken intelligent.
Do you want to start another forum so we can continue with this?
Are you actually willing to listen and accept it? Or are you going to pull the BS card on me and claim that I can't possibly be that way because that's not what a Christian is in your experience? If you're really interested, let me know. I'll tell you in a PM. I have already tried to explain my views in other blogs if you want to take the time to research them on this site. That's why I figured a PM would be more appropriate, that way, any questions will be directly from you and won't get lost in a sea of sarcasm and disbelief.
It's been established you're a cafeteria Christian (take what you like from the Bible - ditch what you don't). Just trying to figure out what flavor you prefer.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
God is love. Says so in the Bible. Anything showing love is of God whether you were doing it because the big dude in the sky told you to or not.
It really seems that you're taking the word out of context. To mention something is either Holy or unholy is to automatically assume you're referencing to some sort of religious deity.
You're missing my point. I'm trying to clarify the intentions of this book. Whether you want to believe it or not is... well... up to you.
uh... yea!!! let's break this up right here. This is why I'm trying to explain to you all who I am as a follower. I don't view people who don't follow my God as bad people. If I did, do you really think I'd even consider looking at this site let alone talk to people on it?
Christ is what the individual believer believes just like Allah is what the individual Muslim believes, but what neither have is evidence for the magic tricks they claim their fictional beings perform or that they even exist at all. What the believer fails to consider(insert religion here) is that they simply like what they believe and the emotional appeal of having a super hero in the sky to protect them is too strong for them to resist.
The fact is, which you don't want to face, is that your myth is in the same boat as all others in history and deserves the same weight as any other deity claim.
Other Christians don't make Christianity look bad to educated atheists because of their behavior We don't reject claims of virgins being knocked up by "spirits" because of the behaivor of Chrisitans. We reject it because there is no evidence of such.
Emotional reactions to human behavior IS NOT a good reason to accept or reject any claim. I like getting presents, but that doesn't make Santa real. I don't like being frightened, but that doesn't mean there are boogiemen under my bed.
Christians giving to charity doesn't equate to human flesh surviving rigor mortis, because the empathy of giving has a strong appeal.
Human behavior is a separate issue and has nothing to do with whether or not a deity exists. Liking or not liking something is not evidence.
I reject Jesus for the same reason I reject claims of Thor and Isis. Magic is magic and fiction is fiction. I may not like how some Christians or Muslims or Jews behave just as you may not like how some atheists behave, but that is a separate issue than backing up a claim with evidence.
You can dance around the issue all you want but the fact remains you have no evidence anymore than any other deity claim in human history.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
No True Christian hates a person of another religion. "love your neighbor/love your enemies, etc."
sadly, this is true. She talks about this in her book too, very sarcastically. It's what Christians like her and I are quite disappointed with.
and what's your reference of research? is it science? The problem with using science alone to convince yourself that there is no God is the fact that science's limitations are the physical world. Let's assume for a moment that there is a spritual world, what form of research... or source for that matter, would you use to familiarize yourself with that world?
Keep in mind we're assuming there is a spiritual world for this question to be answered. Until you have a clear answer to that, I don't believe you can emperically say "there is no evidence of such"
Read your history. Of course you're not going to find that information in the Quran.
I would clarify this myself. Being as we are on a planet of 6 billion people we cannot isolate ourselves from people who buy things we find to be absurd. People who believe such claims are are co-workers, friends and family.
I like to put it this way, "I can like and even love a person who makes claims I find to be absurd. The key is separating issues. One is the issue of the person themselves, and the other issue is the claims they make"
I don't know this OP face to face in person, so I cant say that I do or don't respect them. But as far as respecting hocus pokus as fact, I will never respect absurd claims.
I do however, love and respect my mom. I love and respect many of my co-workers, but that does not mean I respect their claims of virgin births being real anymore than I would if they literally believed and claimed that Thor was the cause of thunder and lightning.
This poster fails to realize that we are not attacking THEM the person, and seem to take it personally, when they shouldn't, when we call a duck a duck and fiction fiction.
TO THE OP........
WE ARE NOT, attacking you, but if you open your mouth and say something that doesn't make sense, we are going to address it unfiltered. It is nothing to be offended by and nothing to take personally.
But to expect us to be dishonest with ourselves intellectually and dishonest with you is and of itself absurd. We are not here to placate your emotions. We are not here to oppress you and none of us know you personally face to face so we are NOT judging YOU. WE ARE looking at your claims and giving your claims our unfiltered view. Nothing more, nothing less.
So please stop with the "poor me" guff, and get on with backing up your claims. If you cant back up your claims, just as if a Muslim couldn't back up theirs, we wont hate you, we merely will not buy what you claim.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
I am, for the sake of argument, assuming a the potential of a spirit world now.
Okay...
What source... what source... A book?
A particular book?
You say science isn't a valid source, because it doesn't adress a potential spiritworld, well all religious texts of all religions that have ever written anything of theirs down all adress your potential "spirit world", not to mention The Silmarilion and the various stories of Buffy the Vampire slayer... What source indeed.
What makes the Bible so special to you, other than the fact that you happen to have been born into a social cirkle where you were at some point exposed to someone that felt the Bible was special? And before you say anything, yes I have read it; I study Comparative Religion at University, so I've scrutinized that book as much as any Theologian.
Well I was born an original sinner
I was spawned from original sin
And if I had a dollar bill for all the things I've done
There'd be a mountain of money piled up to my chin
"Anything showing love is of Allah"
"Anything showing love is of Elohim"
"Anything showing love is of Osirus"
Are you seeing a pattern? Again, so what, humans have always claimed in all polytheism and all monotheism throughout human history that their deity and their religious writings claim that the god(s) is the author of love. Old motif, big deal.
"The Bible says so" "The Bible is true because the Bible says so" is called circular reasoning.
AGAIN, see if you can spot the pattern.
"The Koran is true because the Koran says so"
"The Torah and Tamud are true because they say so"
"The ancient Egyptian book of the dead is true because it says so"
All these cultures past and present have people who believe(d) as fervently in their dieties as you do now in yours and quote their writings as proof too. Your claims are not special in human history and deserve the same credibility as any past or present.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
If theists want to claim we are being tough on them, in the sense that we challenge them to think outside their books without sugar coating it, that I can agree with. But if theists think we are out to oppress them that is absurd.
It never occurs to the theist that we are trying to help them escape the mind shackles of superstition OF ANY KIND. Just as we would want people to know how absurd claiming rabbit's feet work or that Big Foot really exists.
We are not out to harm or oppress, but to get you to think.
Which makes more sense to you?
Thor in reality really makes lighting?
Or
Positive and negative charges in the atmosphere make lighting?
Which makes more sense?
Virgins can get pregnant via "spirit"?
Or
A sperm and an egg make a baby?
Which makes more sense?
The magic of "poof" is real?
Or,
People make up stories and believe them because they like them?
If other cultures and other religions can believe false things to be fact, what makes you think that humanity magically changed?
"God did it"
Is the same as
"Thor did it"
"Vishnu did it"
"Allah did it"
They are all claims that people have made, or still make, that they merely like to believe.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
You should be embarrassed with yourself with this response.
Do you seriously want me to entertain the possibility of virgin (whom by the standards of ancient times would have been married between the ages of 9-14 btw) in any case, you seriously want me to lend a lick of credence to such an absurdity?
I don't assume a "spirit" world you do, You have no evidence for that anymore than the Ancient Egyptians did for their fictional afterlife stories.
I don't need to convince myself your God doesn't exist, the claims people make using that book of fiction debunk itself. For the same reason you can look at claims of Thor and Osirus and read their culture's writings and know it is false.
I don't need to convince myself that your God does not exist anymore than I would need to convince myself that Jesus did not come from little green men from outer space which Scientology is fond of claiming.
Do you need convincing that Harry Potter can't fly around on broomsticks? I don't need convincing that virgin births aren't real either.
I'm sorry it is not painfully obvious that you have unfortunately bought a fairy tale. I only hope for your intellectual sake you can snap out of it some day.
Genesis alone is enough to discard the entire bible. It puts plant life before photosynthisis. It treats the sunlight and moonlight as separate sources of light. It treats all the points of light in the night time sky as "stars" when we know some are planets, some are stars and some are galaxies. Not to mention that we know it takes 18-22 years for an adult to reach physical maturity but "POOF" magically a woman was pulled from a man's rib fully adult.
DO YOU REALLY REALLY SERIOUSLY WANT ME TO BUY THIS?
Or could it be you merely like believing it because the idea of a super hero protecting you has a strong emotional appeal?
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Let me add a couple more things here. Please remember that I am an individual. You posted this thread with the idea that it would stay on track. Others here don't mind the long scenic route, but I cut to the chase. To me the OP is nothing more than a distraction to avoid addressing the magic of deity claims and "POOF" theory.
It is not out of hate that I do this. It is in the hopes that you will shed these illusions that were wrongfully sold to you that you currently buy.
The bottom line is that it is absurd to think that there is a magical dissimbodied being BY ANY NAME (in human history from any culture) with the capability of manipulating all the googles and googles and trillions of googles of atoms in the universe, much less the neurons in our brains.
I am trying to help you escape your fantasy. I am tough on you because I know humanity can do better than ancient fairy tales.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
See Wiki on Muhammad HERE and HERE Where it says "The "most trustworthy source" for reconstruction of the life of the historical Muhammad is the Qur'an"
Early biographies were by Ibn Ishaq's Life of God's Messenger Ibn Ishaq's Life of God's Messenger and Ibn Hisham and Al-Tabari.
See this article HERE by Michael Hart where he mentions it was on his caravan trading journeys he encountered Jews and Christians. That is the general accepted view. If you have a source other than the Quran or these early biographers for Muhammad please indicate who or where. Europeans wrote much that was hearsay and slander in order to discredit him, such as he died in 666 and was seeking little more than glory and power. These stories by Europeans and Latins should be given little credibility. The stories by his followers also seek to glorify him and overlook many things that cast him in a bad light. In any event it is difficult to say with certainty where his basis for Islam originated especially claiming he was raised as a Christian.
I also find it interesting that this was the only comment you had from my previous post. I asked you in a general way if Christianity is true this means the Jews misinterpreted their own scriptures for hundreds of years just where did they or their prophets error. Jesus clearly does not fit as the Moshiach that was prophesied so they have misinterpreted, Christians have or you both have. Apparently you don't consider this important enough to consider? In order for you to have basis as a "True Christian" it would seem you must know better than the religion from where your beliefs were derived how to interpret their prophecies and beliefs. If so, you must know where the Jews errored in their understanding and why certain prophets should be ignored only in some places and accepted in others.
____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
I never said in that post that the Bible had to be their source for answers. I just merely pointed out that if what we believe is true, then obviously science wouldn't be the best way of discovering it. In order for someone to claim as they did, they would have to have some other source which would verify those claims to be true.
If there is a spiritual world for the sake of argument... there would have to be 1 true way of it to work just as science points out in the laws of our universe.
You bring up Muhammad and the OP doesn't seem to understand that their claims are just as absurd as Islamic claims of magic.
I have had Muslims claim Koran verses as proof of the following. "Allah picks the sex of the baby based on congealed blood". No, we know now that it is the XY chromosome factor that determine the sex of the baby.
I also have had a Muslim quote the Koran "mountains moving" as proof that Muhammad knew about plate tectonics.
If this OP can understand that these Muslims are wrong, then it shouldn't be a stretch to apply that same logic to their own claims.
Just as none of us will get 72 virgins in an afterlife, there is no such thing as "spirit sperm" nor are their multiple armed deities that are concerned with human life. These are all false claims people merely like believing because they want to believe it because they think it makes them feel good. They are nothing but hollow placebos that do nothing but retard thinking and shut down the brain to thinking.
I'm glad you brought up Muhammad because I don't want this Christian thinking I only criticize their myths. Crossing your fingers for luck is as useful as prayer and rabbits feet. Superstition by any name is still superstition.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
yea, I am. the first 2 names are in reference to the same Christian God YHWH regardless of whether they're part of a different belief system or religion. Check your history. The third one.... I'm not so familiar with... did you mean Osiris? I didn't see anywhere a reference that he was or is love. Please reference that for me.
yes it has. I know that people like you are on here for that reason. I respect that. I've mentioned many times before that I'm on here to test my understanding. I have said many times that if evidence is brought to my attention that can clearly show my understanding to be false, I will absolutely turn away from this belief.
So the Big Three religions all worship the Cannanite God El and his fellows? Great, that means I can ignore their beliefs as the myths they are.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
But they also believe they are the only one's getting forgiven, so they can't really be as sinful.They aren't going to hell afterall.
Atheism is a religion like bald is a hair color, off is a tv channel, and not playing football is a sport. It is the lack of belief. The Cambridge online dictionary defines religion as “the belief in and worship of a god or gods, or any such system of belief and worship.’’
An atheist has neither belief in any gods, nor worships any. Religion can also be defined as “a set of rituals and ceremonies pertaining to a deity.” Again, this is not demonstrated in the atheist’s life.
I will assume the Christian reader does not believe in Thor. Is you’re a-Thorism a religion? Do you call yourself a follower of the ‘There is no Thor faith’, and go to Thor unbelief church? No
Try again.
So far it's saying a True Christians is pretty much the opposite of what you're saying.
Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible
Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.
I think... I'm not 100% sure, but I think if you research the tribe /'s he was a part of, you'll find either a Jewish or Christian heritage.
Also, if you read further down in the first Wiki reference, you'll find that his source for information was the angel Gabriel, a Biblical angel. Also, if you read a bit of the Quran, you'll find that the Bible and the Quran are in agreement up to the Children of Abraham. It is understood by empirical information that he was raised with either a Christian or Jewish understanding.
I know I said just Christian before. That was my fault, I have read other texts that show more evidence of the Christian dissent, but I don't remember what they were at this point.
Note: The Jews do not accept Jesus as a prophet at all, that's one of a few ideas that lead researchers to believe his upbringing was understood to be Christian. His tribe did not accept his teachings, which leads researchers to believe they did have a following and found his teachings to be against it.
[/quote=pauljohntheskeptic]
I also find it interesting that this was the only comment you had from my previous post. I asked you in a general way if Christianity is true this means the Jews misinterpreted their own scriptures for hundreds of years just where did they or their prophets error. Jesus clearly does not fit as the Moshiach that was prophesied so they have misinterpreted, Christians have or you both have. Apparently you don't consider this important enough to consider? In order for you to have basis as a "True Christian" it would seem you must know better than the religion from where your beliefs were derived how to interpret their prophecies and beliefs. If so, you must know where the Jews errored in their understanding and why certain prophets should be ignored only in some places and accepted in others.
First, I'm trying to keep a focus on the topics of the book for which this forum was originally started. Second, you cannot assume I find no importance in anything anyone writes be it that I am one person and I'm attempting to reply to many many posts all at once. I cannot and will not be able to address everything, especially if it is getting off the main topic.
If you want me to continue in depth with this or other topics, please start a new forum and let me know.
To quickly clarify, Jesus in the New Testament and all over the Old Testament reference to where people went wrong. (This is where a lot of non-believers misrepresent the Bible. It's not all what is suppose to be but some of what went wrong.) It wasn't that texts were misinterpreted by the prophets, it's that people started manipulating them to what would benefit them. Jesus also brought a NEW TESTAMENT or Law with him which changes some of the old understandings and laws. This change was necessary because people were not following them the way they were suppose to. They were misrepresenting the prophets teachings.
If you're referencing to their not accepting Jesus as the coming messiah, then yes, newer Jews misunderstood the texts. The Old Testament referenced that Jesus was going to come down and rise up as King. They were picturing an Earthly king that was going to rule with avengence against their adversaries. They missed the part in Isaiah that mentions he will be lowly and crushed for our iniquities.
Keep in mind the Jews don't follow a 'cut and dry' Old Testament as it's written in the Bible. they read the books as individuals and have other books they follow that are not in the Bible. The Bible is understood to be a breif summary and only has what was considered to be the most important information. There are many other historical writings that go along with the Bible, but are not included for one reason or another.
If you would like to continue with this, please start a new forum.