Creationist Challenge

Hambydammit
High Level DonorModeratorRRS Core Member
Hambydammit's picture
Posts: 8657
Joined: 2006-10-22
User is offlineOffline
Creationist Challenge

To any Creationist/ID proponents.  I challenge you to subject evolution to the same standards of evidence as you allow for the existence of God.

If, having used exactly the same arguments you use for god, I am able to produce an equally (or more) strong argument for the existence of evolution, you have to agree to believe that evolution is true.

Any takers?

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism


Kevin R Brown
Superfan
Kevin R Brown's picture
Posts: 3142
Joined: 2007-06-24
User is offlineOffline
ME!!! ...Oh. I have to

ME!!!

 

...Oh. I have to actually support ID first.

Bummer. Sad


Abu Lahab
Superfan
Abu Lahab's picture
Posts: 628
Joined: 2008-02-29
User is offlineOffline
Oh, yeah!

This should be fun..........


nutxaq
nutxaq's picture
Posts: 399
Joined: 2008-04-06
User is offlineOffline
Patterns

I'm detecting a reccurring theme in which any challenge that forces them to play by the rules of logic is simply ignored.

"Faith, Faith is an island in the setting sun,
but proof, proof is the bottom line for everyone."
Proof, Paul Simon

Nothing this hard should taste so beefy.


BMcD
Posts: 777
Joined: 2006-12-20
User is offlineOffline
Hambydammit wrote:To any

Hambydammit wrote:

To any Creationist/ID proponents.  I challenge you to subject evolution to the same standards of evidence as you allow for the existence of God.

If, having used exactly the same arguments you use for god, I am able to produce an equally (or more) strong argument for the existence of evolution, you have to agree to believe that evolution is true.

Any takers?

But Hamby, how are you going to use...

*squeezes eyes shut, sticks fingers in ears, takes a deep breath*

GOD DID IT!! GOD DID IT!! LALALALALALALALALALALALALA!!! SHUTUPSHUTUPSHUTUPSHUTUPSHUTUPSHUTUPSHUTUP GOD F'IN' DID IT!!

... to support evolution?

"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid


Jeffrick
High Level DonorRational VIP!SuperfanGold Member
Jeffrick's picture
Posts: 2446
Joined: 2008-03-25
User is offlineOffline
Comfort & Cameron pt II ?

 

     I seem to recall the now notorious debate between the C & C comedy team  vs.RRS wherein  the pro creationist  couldn"t get through their opening statement without violating the ground rules. (useing biblical quotes)

     I wouldn't hold my breath Hambydammit   waiting for the challenge to be taken up.

"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."

VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"

If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?


RhadTheGizmo
Theist
Posts: 1191
Joined: 2007-01-31
User is offlineOffline
Um.. do we have many

Um.. do we have many creationist/ID proponents on this forum?


Hambydammit
High Level DonorModeratorRRS Core Member
Hambydammit's picture
Posts: 8657
Joined: 2006-10-22
User is offlineOffline
There are some lurkers

There are some lurkers about.  (Yes... we have the power... we know you're watching!!  We're like God... )

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism


Presuppositionalist
Theist
Presuppositionalist's picture
Posts: 344
Joined: 2007-05-21
User is offlineOffline
Hambydammit wrote:To any

Hambydammit wrote:

To any Creationist/ID proponents.  I challenge you to subject evolution to the same standards of evidence as you allow for the existence of God.

If, having used exactly the same arguments you use for god, I am able to produce an equally (or more) strong argument for the existence of evolution, you have to agree to believe that evolution is true.

Any takers?

 

I'm in. This ought to be amusing.

Q: Why didn't you address (post x) that I made in response to you nine minutes ago???

A: Because I have (a) a job, (b) familial obligations, (c) social obligations, and (d) probably a lot of other atheists responded to the same post you did, since I am practically the token Christian on this site now. Be patient, please.


Eight Foot Manchild
Eight Foot Manchild's picture
Posts: 144
Joined: 2007-05-12
User is offlineOffline
Presuppositionalist

Presuppositionalist wrote:

I'm in. This ought to be amusing.

http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/14590

You need to finish this thread first. Take your fights one at a time.


deludedgod
Rational VIP!ScientistDeluded God
deludedgod's picture
Posts: 3221
Joined: 2007-01-28
User is offlineOffline
Quote:I'm in. This ought to

Quote:

I'm in. This ought to be amusing.

I say we give shall give him the test. After all, it would be rather hard for someone to subject evolution to anything if they don't know what it is. So, do awe us with your knowledge: What is stated by the theory of biological evolution?

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

Books about atheism


JustAnotherBeliever
TheistBronze Member
Posts: 199
Joined: 2008-06-14
User is offlineOffline
Hambydammit wrote:To any

Hambydammit wrote:

To any Creationist/ID proponents.  I challenge you to subject evolution to the same standards of evidence as you allow for the existence of God.

If, having used exactly the same arguments you use for god, I am able to produce an equally (or more) strong argument for the existence of evolution, you have to agree to believe that evolution is true.

Any takers?

Hamby, maybe you could make it IDers who believe in theistic evolution vs you taking the naturalistic evolution side. Otherwise, they're just going to get squashed right away. Give 'em a fighting chance....


RhadTheGizmo
Theist
Posts: 1191
Joined: 2007-01-31
User is offlineOffline
Quote:What is stated by the

Quote:
What is stated by the theory of biological evolution?

Hm.. let's see if I can get this off the top of my head.

X biological thing part of X biological group => X biological thing can mutate, leading to new genetic information being infused to the genetic pool of X biological group => through certain processes, such as genetic drift, (4 other things?) a variety of both genotypic profiles or phenotypic features can be observed in X biological group => through a constant struggle over limited resources in order to propogate X biological thing's genetic code, X biological group may shift its makeup, as a result of incremental advantage created by a particular profile, as made up of mostly one genetic profile to another (or a mixture of two or more), which may include different or the same phenotypic features => through longer and longer periods of time, more divergence appears in X biological group, possibly leading to separate classifications as X and Y biological group, and so forth.

Hmm.. something like that?

I may have used the language incorrectly.. or just got the whole thing wrong. Laughing out loud


deludedgod
Rational VIP!ScientistDeluded God
deludedgod's picture
Posts: 3221
Joined: 2007-01-28
User is offlineOffline
The question was actually

The question was actually for him, so I'd appreciate no-one else giving the answer. The language in your explanation could be far more tight. What I am really looking for is a summary of the five distinct theories that constitute the theory of evolution.

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

Books about atheism


RhadTheGizmo
Theist
Posts: 1191
Joined: 2007-01-31
User is offlineOffline
Ah, come on delude.  I just

Ah, come on delude.  I just wanted to try.  Sad

It's been awhile since I've taken college bio, so just wanted to see if my brain still retained any of it.


BMcD
Posts: 777
Joined: 2006-12-20
User is offlineOffline
deludedgod wrote:Quote:I'm

deludedgod wrote:

Quote:

I'm in. This ought to be amusing.

I say we give shall give him the test. After all, it would be rather hard for someone to subject evolution to anything if they don't know what it is. So, do awe us with your knowledge: What is stated by the theory of biological evolution?

But DG, is that really fair? After all, they can't define 'god', either.

"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid


Presuppositionalist
Theist
Presuppositionalist's picture
Posts: 344
Joined: 2007-05-21
User is offlineOffline
Eight Foot Manchild

Eight Foot Manchild wrote:

Presuppositionalist wrote:

I'm in. This ought to be amusing.

http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/14590

You need to finish this thread first. Take your fights one at a time.

I tried to get into that thread earlier today. My computer cut off the last half of the first page of the thread, so I can't get to the "next page" bit. I will try again later.

Anyway, Hamby has pretty resolutely refused to address my actual positions (eg he refuses to accept the actual theological definition of "infinity" ), so I doubt I will engage him much longer. We'll see.

Q: Why didn't you address (post x) that I made in response to you nine minutes ago???

A: Because I have (a) a job, (b) familial obligations, (c) social obligations, and (d) probably a lot of other atheists responded to the same post you did, since I am practically the token Christian on this site now. Be patient, please.


Presuppositionalist
Theist
Presuppositionalist's picture
Posts: 344
Joined: 2007-05-21
User is offlineOffline
deludedgod wrote:Quote:I'm

deludedgod wrote:

Quote:

I'm in. This ought to be amusing.

I say we give shall give him the test. After all, it would be rather hard for someone to subject evolution to anything if they don't know what it is. So, do awe us with your knowledge: What is stated by the theory of biological evolution?

What are you looking for, exactly? By the way you phrase the question here, I could just say "some species evolved into other species", but I doubt you're after that.

Q: Why didn't you address (post x) that I made in response to you nine minutes ago???

A: Because I have (a) a job, (b) familial obligations, (c) social obligations, and (d) probably a lot of other atheists responded to the same post you did, since I am practically the token Christian on this site now. Be patient, please.


Presuppositionalist
Theist
Presuppositionalist's picture
Posts: 344
Joined: 2007-05-21
User is offlineOffline
deludedgod wrote:The

deludedgod wrote:

The question was actually for him, so I'd appreciate no-one else giving the answer. The language in your explanation could be far more tight. What I am really looking for is a summary of the five distinct theories that constitute the theory of evolution.

OK see that would have made things easier.

1. Morphological transformations occur, turning one species into another over time.

2. All species come from a common ancestor.

3. Species change into other species gradually over long periods of time.

4. Occasionally, a species may split into multiple species.

5. Genetic differences are the source of evolutionary change.

Oh, sorry, you were expecting something more like (1) darwin is awesome (2) life from nonlife (3) praise jeebus (4) monkeys (4) um, praise god and america and george bush and apple pie!!!!11!1one1!!!

Q: Why didn't you address (post x) that I made in response to you nine minutes ago???

A: Because I have (a) a job, (b) familial obligations, (c) social obligations, and (d) probably a lot of other atheists responded to the same post you did, since I am practically the token Christian on this site now. Be patient, please.


deludedgod
Rational VIP!ScientistDeluded God
deludedgod's picture
Posts: 3221
Joined: 2007-01-28
User is offlineOffline
Three right, two wrong (ie,

Close. Three right, two wrong (ie, there is a redundancy in the list. You left out the most important parts).

It should look like this:

Evolution: Over time, the characteristics of a lineage change.

Common Descent: All organisms have diverged from a common ancestor

Gradualism: Every organism, however different and distant from each other, is  related, some distantly. Radical changes in phenotype and genotype have occured by incremental processes by which lineages diverge from a common ancestor

Gene Frequency: The method by which evolution (the change in lineages) occurs is by changes in gene frequencies of populations. It is the change in proportion of individuals which have certain characteristics that determines the characteristic divergence of a lineage.

Natural Selection: The process by which gene frequencies are latered is characterized by the variations of organisms in a population, and how those variations determine the ability of the organism to survive and reproduce. The selection of alleles over others in a population will accordingly alter the frequency of genetic particles and hence the phenotype of a lineage.

With respect to the centerpiece of the five, natural selection, it can be subdivided into three concepts:

1. Heredity: All organisms pass genetic information from parent to progeny

2. Variation: Within a population of organisms, mutations and sexual recombinations will ensure that there is phenotypic and genotypic variation among the organisms

3. Selection: Those variations and the selection pressure exerted by the environment will determine the most proliferative alleles in the struggle for resources such that the frequency of alleles will change over time

And can be combined to look like this:

 

According to the Theory of Evolution, all life is descendant from a common ancestor, and the process by which the divergent taxa are produced from a common ancestor is due to the gradual changes in lineages from that ancestor by means of the non-random gradual change in gene frequencies within a population over generations by means of natural selection.

 

Quote:

Oh, sorry, you were expecting something more like (1) darwin is awesome (2) life from nonlife (3) praise jeebus (4) monkeys (4) um, praise god and america and george bush and apple pie!!!!11!1one1!!!

I wasn't expecting anything, I just wanted to see if you could answer the question. Most cannot. 

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

Books about atheism


Presuppositionalist
Theist
Presuppositionalist's picture
Posts: 344
Joined: 2007-05-21
User is offlineOffline
In both cases, you're

In both cases, you're basically taking issue with the wording I used.

Quote:
Evolution: Over time, the characteristics of a lineage change

You got me. I left out "lineage".

Quote:
Natural Selection: The process by which gene frequencies are latered is characterized by the variations of organisms in a population, and how those variations determine the ability of the organism to survive and reproduce. The selection of alleles over others in a population will accordingly alter the frequency of genetic particles and hence the phenotype of a lineage.

See #5. Admittedly, I didn't go into this much detail, but then again you weren't terribly clear about your expectations.

Q: Why didn't you address (post x) that I made in response to you nine minutes ago???

A: Because I have (a) a job, (b) familial obligations, (c) social obligations, and (d) probably a lot of other atheists responded to the same post you did, since I am practically the token Christian on this site now. Be patient, please.


deludedgod
Rational VIP!ScientistDeluded God
deludedgod's picture
Posts: 3221
Joined: 2007-01-28
User is offlineOffline
Quote:You got me. I left out

Quote:

You got me. I left out "lineage".

 

Actually, the primary thing which was missing was selection by the environment  in terms of the struggle for resources being responsible for changes in gene frequency, the centerpiece theory. The concepts of changes in a lineage and gradualism etc. had been around since before Linnaeus, but nobody knew how such a thing would be possible until Darwin and Huxley formalized the dual concepts of selection and gene frequencies. Also, now would be a good time to point out that we never talk about species in evolutionary biology, for evolution does not act on “species”, it acts on populations. The first three postulates of Darwin and Huxley’s theory were accepted almost immediately when Origin of Species was published, but selection and gene frequency changes remained contentious. This was primarily because the prevailing view at the time was the hereditary traits were miscible, and hence should fade out and blend the way paints mix. Mendel refuted this by demonstrating the inherited characteristics were passed via particular inheritance of genetic particles, stable traits that could propagate throughout a lineage. As a result, with the formalization of molecular genetics in the 1930s, the modern synthesis of evolution was complete, and all the  competing explanations (mutationism, orthenogenesis and Lamarkism) were refuted. In the 1960s and 70s, with the formalization of molecular biology and the discovery of DNA in the 1950s lead to the hypothesis that gene duplication and divergence were primarily responsible for evolutionary innovations, and as such, common descent could be explained in terms of gene duplications as opposed to the assemblage of new characteristics from scratch, which prior to this time was considered a major problem. This idea was given due credence in the 1980s with the formalization of the polymerase chain reaction and the ability in the 1990s to sequence genomes and use massive computational power to compare them. The precise molecular mechanisms that allowed for the functional relationship between homologies in physical characteristics of  different multicellular organisms (teeth, claws, bones, brain, eyes e tc.) and the genes of the same organisms remained a mystery until the 1990s with the formalization of molecular developmental biology and the ready ability to explain ontogeny in molecular terms.

 

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

Books about atheism


Hambydammit
High Level DonorModeratorRRS Core Member
Hambydammit's picture
Posts: 8657
Joined: 2006-10-22
User is offlineOffline
Quote:Anyway, Hamby has

Quote:
Anyway, Hamby has pretty resolutely refused to address my actual positions (eg he refuses to accept the actual theological definition of "infinity" ), so I doubt I will engage him much longer. We'll see.

Hmm... First, I refuse to accept your definition because it's nonsensical and contradictory.  Second, why'd you accept my challenge if you aren't going to talk to me?  You contradict yourself a lot.  I don't believe you'll really change your mind if I can use your arguments for god to prove evolution, so why are we doing this little dance?

 

 

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism


PorkChop
Rational VIP!SuperfanSilver Member
Posts: 154
Joined: 2008-06-26
User is offlineOffline
you could see that?

Hambydammit wrote:

There are some lurkers about.  (Yes... we have the power... we know you're watching!!  We're like God... )

 

 

Eek!  Did you see what I was just doing?!

 

*evil snicker*

(Did you like what you saw?)