It is done

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It is done

PZ Myers has followed-through on his threat to desecrate the Eucharist. He also tore pages out of a Quran and The God Delusion, nailed the cracker to them, and threw trash on them.  I think he just kicked it up a notch. 

I feel torn about his actions.  On one hand, I don't think convincing the rest of the world that religion is bullshit is helped by atheists and secularists offending huge sections of the population.  On the other hand, it's a powerful gesture, and I have to admit I'm moved by it.  I'm smirking at the reactions of the religious.  It's just a damn cracker.

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Kavis wrote:PZ Myers has

Kavis wrote:

PZ Myers has followed-through on his threat to desecrate the Eucharist. He also tore pages out of a Quran and The God Delusion, nailed the cracker to them, and threw trash on them.  I think he just kicked it up a notch. 

I feel torn about his actions.  On one hand, I don't think convincing the rest of the world that religion is bullshit is helped by atheists and secularists offending huge sections of the population.  On the other hand, it's a powerful gesture, and I have to admit I'm moved by it.  I'm smirking at the reactions of the religious.  It's just a damn cracker.

 

LOVE this from the blog: 

"Professor Myers,

I was saddened to hear of your plans to harm our Lord Jesus Christ.

It obviously isn't the first time and it won't be the last.

I know you do not believe, but what if it truly is Jesus that you are attempting to hurt?

You are in my prayers."

 

Why hasn't anyone created a cartoon of a cross with crackers nailed to it!!! COME ON all you artists out there, you know it is at the tip of y our pencils/paintbrushes!

Jesus is a cracker...very funny stuff!! I thought him to be a honkey...  Smiling

 

 

 

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I really can't get very

I really can't get very worked up about it.

Those offended by this... this... waste of paper and flour paste wafers are out looking for reasons to be offended. I think persecution complexes are built into their religions. So I can't bring myself to be terribly worried about them.

I do like that he included pages from "The God Delusion", though I doubt those running around waving thier arms in the air over the desicration of their cracker or holey book will notice.

"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray


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Cool.

Cool.


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Renee Obsidianwords

Renee Obsidianwords wrote:

 

LOVE this from the blog: 

"Professor Myers,

I was saddened to hear of your plans to harm our Lord Jesus Christ.

It obviously isn't the first time and it won't be the last.

I know you do not believe, but what if it truly is Jesus that you are attempting to hurt?

You are in my prayers."

 

Why hasn't anyone created a cartoon of a cross with crackers nailed to it!!! COME ON all you artists out there, you know it is at the tip of y our pencils/paintbrushes!

Jesus is a cracker...very funny stuff!! I thought him to be a honkey...  Smiling

 

 

 

Quick and VERY dirty. My copy of GIMP is broken, so I had to make do with MSPaint.  No layers, no tools, just a man, a cracker, and a paintbrush.

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Kavis wrote: Quick and VERY

Kavis wrote:

Quick and VERY dirty. My copy of GIMP is broken, so I had to make do with MSPaint.  No layers, no tools, just a man, a cracker, and a paintbrush.

 

Very good!  Can you superimpose a picture of jeebus' mug on the cracker?  Now that would raise some eyebrows.

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Myers is cool. He posted

Myers is cool. He posted this in his site. Funny song, gets better as it goes, "suing  himself for masturbation" .....

"To Be a Liberal" by Roy Zimmerma

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PZ Myers

 PZ -Rocks. I often wonder how did past civilizations deal with an end to their beliefs . What is wrong with these people ?     

 

Signature ? How ?


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...I still don't get it.They

...I still don't get it.

They eat the crackers, right? Like, they chew them, and then the crackers are digested? Assuming that somehow Jesus was, in fact, the crackers (...and someone should explain that to me, too), how is being impaled to some paper worse than being chewed, swallowed and digested?

Just... what the fuck? Explain how cracker = Jesus. God is made out of crackers? The very topic is infuriatingly stupid to me. It's stone cold fucking crazy, and I just can't fathom why anyone would buy it.

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"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

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We , and my band use to play

We , and my band use to play this , I had an Echoplex, me god !

Queen - Stone Cold Crazy (high Quality)

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Kevin R Brown wrote:...I

Kevin R Brown wrote:

...I still don't get it.

They eat the crackers, right? Like, they chew them, and then the crackers are digested? Assuming that somehow Jesus was, in fact, the crackers (...and someone should explain that to me, too), how is being impaled to some paper worse than being chewed, swallowed and digested?

Just... what the fuck?

Jesus prefers to come out of your ass and be flushed down a toilet to then be treated at a sewage plant as opposed to residing in a trash can... DUH!

2 Kudos to PZ Myers for making baby jesus cry for more anus!

 

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Sapient wrote:Kevin R Brown

Sapient wrote:

Kevin R Brown wrote:

...I still don't get it.

They eat the crackers, right? Like, they chew them, and then the crackers are digested? Assuming that somehow Jesus was, in fact, the crackers (...and someone should explain that to me, too), how is being impaled to some paper worse than being chewed, swallowed and digested?

Just... what the fuck?

Jesus prefers to come out of your ass and be flushed down a toilet to then be treated at a sewage plant as opposed to residing in a trash can... DUH!

2 Kudos to PZ Myers for making baby jesus cry for more anus!

 

 

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Man oh man .... yeah them

Man oh man .... yeah them Pauline's Jesus is stinky dog shit .... all "LORD above you"  is idol worship, a devil of "wrong thinking" idea ....

    There is no way to fix Christianity, Islam, god of abe Jesus like idol crap. Flush down the toilet indeed. 


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Maybe the Christians are so

Maybe the Christians are so pissed because of a sudden realization "Oh, the church is not protected by God from outer reality, any sinner can just come here and show how are our ceremonies meaningless!" The lost comfort of a safe shelter results in agressivity, you surely know that some animals need a dark, secluded place to rest, a dog-house, or a cave.
The response of outraged Christians is like a children, who found out that some tramp shitted in their painstakingly built tree-house in the forest.

The whole idea of Jesus' body and blood started when Jesus himself took a very specific bread which in no way resemblesd a wafer, and a wine, which probably doesn't share not even a molecule with any of mass wine of today. Repeating it without Jesus, or without the original bread and wine will always be only...symbolic.
Or did Jesus also say "repeat it every week on Sunday until I'll be back" ?

I'd like to know how roman catholics in my nation, if there are any around, feels about this case, I can hardly imagine anyone being such an asshat because of a desacrated wafer. I hope they understand that it's just a symbol, there had been proven no DNA to be found in a sacrated wafer.
Of course I saw a few of religious nutz in my life, but in moments like now I realize, how atheistic this country really is. The only Christianic party in politics is a middle party, and when I look at the names of their members, I certainly remember a few of corruption scandandals with some of these individuals, or just acts of  idiocy. Such people can't be taken seriously. I'm tempted to take a propagative song from their homepage (about "proper/decent life&quotEye-wink and replace the video by a record of public fight of one of their members, a big corruption scandal of another, or a former singer from among them, singing an ass-climbing song for the publically hated local USA military radar base.

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Luminon wrote:The whole idea

Luminon wrote:
The whole idea of Jesus' body and blood started when Jesus himself took a very specific bread which in no way resemblesd a wafer, and a wine, which probably doesn't share not even a molecule with any of mass wine of today.

What makes you think jesus even existed?

 

 

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Luminon wrote:Maybe the

Luminon wrote:
Maybe the Christians are so pissed because of a sudden realization "Oh, the church is not protected by God from outer reality, any sinner can just come here and show how are our ceremonies meaningless!"

That's pretty much it. I thought the gesture was pretty tame, really. 

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Kavis wrote: I feel torn

Kavis wrote:
 

I feel torn about his actions.  On one hand, I don't think convincing the rest of the world that religion is bullshit is helped by atheists and secularists offending huge sections of the population.  On the other hand, it's a powerful gesture, and I have to admit I'm moved by it.  I'm smirking at the reactions of the religious.  It's just a damn cracker.

 

The good thing about what he did was that this will spark debate on all levels, reasonable and otherwise.  The more people that see extreme displays like this, the more it will sink in that mysticism needn't be respected, whether it means throwing crackers out, or letting people stop traffic to bow to their sun god at dusk.

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Kevin R Brown wrote:...I

Kevin R Brown wrote:

...I still don't get it.

They eat the crackers, right? Like, they chew them, and then the crackers are digested? Assuming that somehow Jesus was, in fact, the crackers (...and someone should explain that to me, too), how is being impaled to some paper worse than being chewed, swallowed and digested?

Just... what the fuck? Explain how cracker = Jesus. God is made out of crackers? The very topic is infuriatingly stupid to me. It's stone cold fucking crazy, and I just can't fathom why anyone would buy it.

My co-workers are now looking at me like I am crazy, Kevin.  Thank you.  Thank you, immeasurably, for my hysterical outburst.

 

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Kevin R Brown wrote:...I

Kevin R Brown wrote:

...I still don't get it.

They eat the crackers, right? Like, they chew them, and then the crackers are digested? Assuming that somehow Jesus was, in fact, the crackers (...and someone should explain that to me, too), how is being impaled to some paper worse than being chewed, swallowed and digested?

not that it legitimizes this ridiculous belief at all but when i was growing up we were told not to chew... let it sit on your tongue until it gets soggy and swallow.  they also told us that god's presence left the wafer once it was entirely dissolved therefore theoretically he wasn't around past the small intestine.


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On one of my favorite

On one of my favorite websites (fstdt.com) there have been a few crazy people making posts about this. My favorite by far is:

Aron wrote:

[in a response to hearing about abuse of a cracker]

I feel very sad and hurt to read this. Many of you obviously don't understand that to Catholics what you have done is worse than spitting on us, abusing us or violating us. We would rather you did that to us than see a host desecrated. It is not a symbol or a religious object it is the one we love more than our own mothers and fathers, more than our children.
To do this is worse for us in one sense than if you had raped and tortured our loved ones. We are called to forgive so we will but that doesn't take away from the sheer revulsion, hurt and pain that you have caused to every Catholic who has heard of this very sad act of hatred and bigotry.

http://www.fstdt.com/fundies/comments.aspx?q=43531

So according to some Catholics rape and torture of loved ones is better then taking a Jesus cracker. These people are scary in that they care so much about this.

 

I wonder if PZ Myers is going to have the Muslims threaten violence against him. I mean Theo van Gogh just made a film, Myers has desecrated the Koran. I suppose the ball is in the court of the "religion of peace" on that one.

"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."
British General Charles Napier while in India


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That is beyond fucked up

That is beyond fucked up that they'd rather see their loved ones hurt or murdered than a fucking cracker desecrated. That is totally batshit insane.

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Being from South Carolina, I

Being from South Carolina, I have no problem whatsoever with the idea that Jesus is a Cracker.  All my life I've had Crackers telling me how great Jesus is and how he's gonna send me to Hey-ull and the Lake of Fah if I don't straighten up and stop target shooting on Sunday mornings (it gets too hot if we wait until 11AM to start!).  Shit, just look at the guy.  I can't tell you how many people who look (and act) just like Jesus have tried to sell me weed or bootleg Skynyrd t-shirts out of the back of a 1987 Dodge Ram with a Cougar painted on the tailgate.  Emaciated, bearded, long-haired, poor table manners, surrounded by guys who fish for a living and constantly complaining about the Jews.  Sounds like a Cracker to me.

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A crazy forum person

A crazy forum person wrote:
Many of you obviously don't understand that to Catholics what you have done is worse than spitting on us, abusing us or violating us. We would rather you did that to us than see a host desecrated. It is not a symbol or a religious object it is the one we love more than our own mothers and fathers, more than our children. 

To do this is worse for us in one sense than if you had raped and tortured our loved ones. We are called to forgive so we will but that doesn't take away from the sheer revulsion, hurt and pain that you have caused to every Catholic who has heard of this very sad act of hatred and bigotry.

 

I wonder if religious folk would back a statement like this up.  I really wonder how true this is.  Get a cracker, and make demands.

 

See where 'you kidnapped and can really hurt my god' turns into 'I have too much dignity as a human to save my god, whom you possess and can hurt.'

 

That aside...  this is what really profoundly disturbs me:

it is the one we love more than our own mothers and fathers, more than our children.

I mean... damn

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aiia wrote:Luminon wrote:The

Balrogoz wrote:
I wonder if religious folk would back a statement like this up.  I really wonder how true this is.  Get a cracker, and make demands.
Yes, the era of kidnapping and blackmailing of people's children is gone, now a box of crackers does the same job and it's legal. I mean, if I have a box of holy crackers, I can do whatever I want with that, it's not an uranium, when USA would have a right to invade my ass and take it from me. So, a persuasive video of me in a mask, the box of crackers and a hammer, sent to some orthodox Christian could make wonder. If he won't pay, he receives a few of the crackers gruesomely shattered, torn apart, and so on, together with a video of me doing it. Maybe a bit of effects (like a blood dripping from a broken cracker, or holy aura around it, flickering and fading away) could make the video even better Smiling
Quote:
 

That aside...  this is what really profoundly disturbs me:

it is the one we love more than our own mothers and fathers, more than our children.

I mean... damn

Eh...I hope the Church has enough fear from the law to not demand from the followers to choose a cracker before lives of people. Wait! It actually tries to infiltrate the law, at least in USA. Damn.



aiia wrote:

Luminon wrote:
The whole idea of Jesus' body and blood started when Jesus himself took a very specific bread which in no way resemblesd a wafer, and a wine, which probably doesn't share not even a molecule with any of mass wine of today.

What makes you think jesus even existed?

Basically, someone had to think up the ideas, which were atypical, even revolutionary for that time and place. Next, it's quite common in history, that there from time to time appears some great man does some great deeds and leaves behind some less or more fantastic legends. (sorry women, that's mostly a patriarchal world)
Some people are legendary even today, alive or in recent history. Occurence of extraordinary men in history, good or bad, is quite regular and expectable. Historical records about them are distorted by time and their followers to fit the dogma, but their existence itself firstly attracted the followers. New ideas doesn't grow on trees nor come from the crowd. They come from individuals. Jesus basically attempted to convert Old Testament middle-east "morality" on something which would be quite acceptable, if people would abide with it.  Not that they usually would, but the attempt was meant well.

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.


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Kavis wrote:Renee

Kavis wrote:

Renee Obsidianwords wrote:

 

LOVE this from the blog: 

"Professor Myers,

I was saddened to hear of your plans to harm our Lord Jesus Christ.

It obviously isn't the first time and it won't be the last.

I know you do not believe, but what if it truly is Jesus that you are attempting to hurt?

You are in my prayers."

 

Why hasn't anyone created a cartoon of a cross with crackers nailed to it!!! COME ON all you artists out there, you know it is at the tip of y our pencils/paintbrushes!

Jesus is a cracker...very funny stuff!! I thought him to be a honkey...  Smiling

 

 

 

Quick and VERY dirty. My copy of GIMP is broken, so I had to make do with MSPaint.  No layers, no tools, just a man, a cracker, and a paintbrush.

Very nice, you even used a rusty nail! Get Jesus a tetanus shot!

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"Jesus" are words ..... of

"Jesus" are words .....  of many .....  >>> write your own ........ kill the jesus of Paul and the Pope , and hang Bush ..... on video.  (  medaphorically ) I oppose the death  penalty.

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guy at work

Holy shit...that Muslim guy at work was right...Jesus was nuthin but a cracker motherfucker.


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Every one is a cracker   

Every one is a cracker   


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Luminon wrote: aiia

Luminon wrote:

 


aiia wrote:

Luminon wrote:
The whole idea of Jesus' body and blood started when Jesus himself took a very specific bread which in no way resemblesd a wafer, and a wine, which probably doesn't share not even a molecule with any of mass wine of today.

What makes you think jesus even existed?

Basically, someone had to think up the ideas, which were atypical, even revolutionary for that time and place. Next, it's quite common in history, that there from time to time appears some great man does some great deeds and leaves behind some less or more fantastic legends. (sorry women, that's mostly a patriarchal world)
Some people are legendary even today, alive or in recent history. Occurence of extraordinary men in history, good or bad, is quite regular and expectable. Historical records about them are distorted by time and their followers to fit the dogma, but their existence itself firstly attracted the followers. New ideas doesn't grow on trees nor come from the crowd. They come from individuals. Jesus basically attempted to convert Old Testament middle-east "morality" on something which would be quite acceptable, if people would abide with it.  Not that they usually would, but the attempt was meant well.

The biblical jesus never existed

 

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Luminon has a weakness for

Luminon has a weakness for believing things purely because the evidence for them is crap, questionable or non-existent. His parents have told him it's cool, and he's even convinced himself it's intelligent. Compared to some of the other delusions he comes up with, believing in a biblical Jesus is a doddle (and rather predictable, like the rest of his input as far as I can see). May the farce be with him ...

 

Desecration of things that theists hold dear is a two edged sword and can inflict as much damage on the cause of reintroducing rationalism as it helps illustrate that cause's aims. But as someone else said above - this one was rather tame. If you're out to incur the wrath of the righteously insane you may as well be hung for a sheep as for a lamb since the knee-jerkers react the same way anyway. Lace a few communion crackers with LSD or something and give the suckers (literally - it is a sin to chew them as Shelley remembers) a truly transubstantial experience.

 

Personally I have always preferred a less hysterical approach. It bugs the shit out of them when they are condemned by their own over-reactions to perfectly sound and calmly presented reason. They're the ones attempting to defend the irrational, so challenge them to do so coherently at every opportunity. They will always, always, always let their side down. The emperor's "new clothes" were revealed to be a con job by one astute and honest observation by an un-brainwashed child, not by a bazooka attack on the emperor. I have always liked that story.

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I wonder if you could make

I wonder if you could make some jesus cookies (ie cookies in a comical jesus shape) and put them in something that they can't be seen - and get a priest to bless the thing it's in (or get ahold of some holy water and use it as the water in the ingredients) would that technically be considered a "host?" or is there some weird ceremony they have to do for that?

 

Actually just making Jesus cookies would be funny enough. I wonder if you ate them where others were around would Christians get pissed or think you were really devout? Be hilarious to see their reaction when you bit it's head off.

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It's been done, Matt. And

It's been done, Matt. And with the full approval of the church too.

 

In the town I come from the main street was dominated by the church, a convent, a seminary and a christian brothers' training centre (yes folks, they trained child molesters). Back in the early 70s a curate who regarded himself as "progressive" (read "bad guitar playing preacher" ) decided that the nuns in the convent who traditionally baked the crackers should experiment with their dough-cutters and not just produce circular hosts. The nuns, half of whom were young innocents trying to model themselves on Julie Andrews and the other half of whom were batty and senile, went to town on the idea and the congregation over the next few weeks were treated to an increasingly bizarre "selection" of crackers. Lambs, fishes and christmas trees abounded, and then after a few weeks rudimentary "busts" of Jesus and his mother began rolling off the cookie-belt. They were going down a treat, and other places had begun the same experiment, when a newspaper article promoting the exercise generated feedback from some rather observant readers that the shapes, regardless of what subject they purported to represent, all looked vaguely like phalluses and the obvious connection to sexually repressed virgins (the bakers) was drawn.

 

The circles were back in vogue immediately, and to the best of my knowledge artistic licence has been revoked by order since then.

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MattShizzle wrote:I wonder

MattShizzle wrote:

I wonder if you could make some jesus cookies (ie cookies in a comical jesus shape) and put them in something that they can't be seen - and get a priest to bless the thing it's in (or get ahold of some holy water and use it as the water in the ingredients) would that technically be considered a "host?" or is there some weird ceremony they have to do for that?

 

Actually just making Jesus cookies would be funny enough. I wonder if you ate them where others were around would Christians get pissed or think you were really devout? Be hilarious to see their reaction when you bit it's head off.

Not too long ago I attended a wedding and the reception that followed in the church auditorium. They had all kinds of food. It was dripping off every table in the place.

Anyway, people were coming and going and then coming back again. Some were even coming back a bit, shall we say, under the influence.

So, long story short, there was of course a big wedding cake but also a dessert table and I noticed a few unsober guys arguing over a plate of brownies. They weren't getting real loud but then all of a sudden they start shoving each other and kinda half way joking but they knocked some other stuff off the table.

Bridesmaids walk over and then the sh*t really started cause these guys didn't want to be told what to do. It was getting progressively louder so I walked over and told the ladies not to worry and that I'd try to calm the situation.

I leaned over the brownies and in a real soft voice I said that line from the movie The 'Burbs.... I said it with my eyes closed, praying over this large plate, "I wanna kill everyone, Satan is good, Satan is our pal." I said it about five times in a row.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsUr5acPY9g

running time is 2:23 but it just repeats the same short clip over and over so don't wait for anything new after the first repeat.

 

When I opened my eyes  the preacher (Father) is just looking at me. All I could get out was "Ooops", I laid the plate down gently then sauntered quietly out of the building.

Those guys followed me out though, laughing their asses off, (one was rolling around the parking lot) , but it did stop their shit cause we hung out together the rest of the night, in a galaxy far far away and for the most part avoided trouble.

Sorry to get so far away from the OP....I just like to share that story now and again.


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aiia wrote: The biblical

aiia wrote:
The biblical jesus never existed
I don't claim that he did. Even the village of Nazareth didn't exist at this time, this name is by a mystical sect of Nazarenes. I don't have much confidence in historical data about Jesus, just like I'm not sure if a sacred relic of Buddha's tooth in some Indian temple is really Buddha's tooth.
Some biblic Jesus' preachings contains so unique thoughts, that whoever made them up, had to believe in them, live according to them, and preach them. This is the power of these words. It's not something what someone ordinary can think up at the ancient middle-east, ravaged by Old Testament practices and Roman occupation. I don't know who lived what is today called the life of Jesus, when or how, but someone obviously had to. For me there's not much difference between existence of Jesus, Mahatma Gandhi, Mother Theresa, or any other significant person. That's of course no reason to worship such people, just like nobody here worships Abe Lincoln, I hope.

Nordmann wrote:
Luminon has a weakness for believing things purely because the evidence for them is crap, questionable or non-existent. His parents have told him it's cool, and he's even convinced himself it's intelligent. Compared to some of the other delusions he comes up with, believing in a biblical Jesus is a doddle (and rather predictable, like the rest of his input as far as I can see). May the farce be with him ...
I emphasize personal experience, which is sufficient for everyone, but on the other side, is impossible to give to other people. This is why it's right for you to be so kind to me.
You should realize, that not all evidence is portable. It may be really hard evidence, undoubtable, even sometimes repeatable, but can't be mediated to any other person. This is, how it sometimes is. The only way how to give such an evidence, is to say someone else to get their own evidence of similar kind. Then there can be mutual understanding. Otherwise all depends on a good will, empathy and tolerance to get along peacefully.

Btw, how do you know so much about me and my parents? You just take a role model from theist families where parents systematically indoctrinates children by their religion and apply it to me. If I'd be in really cheeky mood, I'd ask you for an evidence to substantiate your claims. I definitely haven't ever seen a guy with camera around.
I have two brothers, younger and older, who are absolutely not interested in any religional, philosophic or spiritual stuff. They're not even against it, they're simply not interested, the area of their interests is somewhere else. My parents were in childhood subjected to a bad combination of theism and hypocrisy, so they very well know what not to do to their children or other people. Besides that, the content of their lectures is not for everyone. This selection is made by people themselves. Even if it would be the greatest truths ever, they are worthless for unprepared people. A rosebud can't be opened by force. There is no Hell, no need to indoctrinate people for all costs before they die. Everything has it's time. I'm simply presenting an information for those who will find it useful, others are free to reject it.
Sometimes it's important for people just to know that a certain idea exists, no matter if they think it's true or not.

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You're a hypocrite and a

You're a hypocrite and a liar, Luminon. In one thread you're defending yourself and your dad the astrologer's right to believe bullshit, and in the next you're "challenging" people to back up their observation based on what you've just said. You then, as always, make exorbitant claims on behalf of the bullshit itself saying it's something "you get" and that others will "in time", before which time anyone who points out that it's bullshit is displaying ignorance.  Now tell me where I've heard that particular line before.

You're more delusioned even than the average theist since your form of delusion is centered on your own self - your sense of what you are capable of and, ultimately, an overestimation of your intelligence. To defend your "right" to maintain your delusions you are arrogant (as most theists ultimately must be), duplicitous (you give Jesus credence and take it away again as if the attitude towards that character is mutable), dishonest (ultimately with yourself, but invariably with people who voice reasonable concerns about your sanity), and in the end simply childish.

By all means pursue your delusional lifestyle if you want to - as far as I can see it will be harming no one but yourself so knock yourself out. But don't post input on these threads pretending to be rational and, if you want anyone to correspond with you, give over with the "secret knowledge" claims. It is they which mark you out as the arrogant and immature git you obviously are.

Tell your parents from me "job well done". But it might pay you better on this site to listen more and bullshit less. You are obviously young enough still to be rescued from the crapology they have encouraged you to adopt and espouse. You might start by moving out of their house - if you haven't done so already. It's never smart for a sick person to remain close to the source of his infection.

 

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 Nordmann, I understand

 Nordmann, I understand your frustration, but please try to keep it from getting personal.


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HisWillness, if you

HisWillness, if you truly understand my frustration then your understanding must be based on having observed that I, and others, have attempted to point out to this site member politely in the past that his delusions are showing. We have attempted to discuss his delusions in a neutral manner, divorced from his personality (though the two are most obviously intertwined), only to be subjected to even greater heights of inanity for our efforts.

 

If one of the functions of these forums is to make irrational people confront their problem, and if the irrationality in this case is exacerbated by self-obsession (as it most demonstrably is) which manifests itself most strongly in the delusional belief that the crapology he's bought into is not only rational but gives him a superiority over the rest of us because he "knows things" that we can only guess at, then perhaps you can explain to me how to go about it without addressing directly the self in question?

 

I note however your attempt to bring everything down to inoffensive levels. In that light a little help in persuading luminon of how offensive he also is to every rational person on these boards might also help. After all, no one is trying to be unfair here, are they?

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Nordmann wrote:If one of the

Nordmann wrote:

If one of the functions of these forums is to make irrational people confront their problem, and if the irrationality in this case is exacerbated by self-obsession (as it most demonstrably is) which manifests itself most strongly in the delusional belief that the crapology he's bought into is not only rational but gives him a superiority over the rest of us because he "knows things" that we can only guess at, then perhaps you can explain to me how to go about it without addressing directly the self in question?

Exactly as you already do. It doesn't have to be an ad hominem, though. For instance, I'd question the practice of astrology in general, rather than accusing his father of being a con man. That would be an ad hominem attack that would be unwarranted, even if it were true. I'd give examples of how experience can be misleading rather than telling him he's only marginally sane, even if that happens to be true. The general case can be brought out especially in circumstances when people are so frustratingly thick that they refuse to see the obvious truth instead of a more pleasant or diverting fiction. When your blood boils at the seemingly impossible disconnection from reality that some people achieve, it may be more effective to breathe a few times, reach for the general case, and keep the higher ground. A reasonable reader will immediately be able to tell the hinged from the unhinged. 

Nordmann wrote:
I note however your attempt to bring everything down to inoffensive levels. In that light a little hell in persuading luminon of how offensive he also is to every rational person on these boards might also help. After all, no one is trying to be unfair here, are they?

Quite right. One moment.

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I suppose I'm not into

I suppose I'm not into impressing reasonable readers but am more paternally inclined to "fix" luminon before it's too late for the poor guy. Too much heart - that's me. And I'm a great advocate of "tough love" too.

 

BTW, I noticed the "help" into "hell" transcription. Cute!

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Luminon wrote:Some biblic

Luminon wrote:

Some biblic Jesus' preachings contains so unique thoughts, that whoever made them up, had to believe in them, live according to them, and preach them.

Not really unique. "Be nice to one another" isn't exactly original, and neither is "your thoughts can be sins". Your statements here aren't true.

Luminon wrote:
I don't know who lived what is today called the life of Jesus, when or how, but someone obviously had to.

Not true. That's like arguing that someone must have lived the life of Nicholas Nickleby.

Luminon wrote:
I emphasize personal experience, which is sufficient for everyone

No it isn't. "My dog ate my homework" is the best example I can think of.


Luminon wrote:
You should realize, that not all evidence is portable.

Ah, but good evidence is.

Luminon wrote:
It may be really hard evidence, undoubtable, even sometimes repeatable, but can't be mediated to any other person.

I can't think of an example, can you? No. That's because hard evidence is hard evidence. Repeatable, physical, or observable in some precise way.

Luminon wrote:
Sometimes it's important for people just to know that a certain idea exists, no matter if they think it's true or not.

Sure, but don't be surprised if someone demonstrates that the idea is false. Because advocating an idea that is demonstrably false is known either as fraud or simply lying.

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fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence


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 Good luck, HisWillness!

 

Good luck, HisWillness! I'll back out now, so. Though I promise I'll be back to moderate you and remind you of your manners after five or six exchanges of "views" between the pair of you based on your (bloody reasonable) objections to his silliness.

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Nordmann wrote:I suppose I'm

Nordmann wrote:
I suppose I'm not into impressing reasonable readers but am more paternally inclined to "fix" luminon before it's too late for the poor guy. Too much heart - that's me. And I'm a great advocate of "tough love" too.

It's the Viking heart. There's nothing to be done about that, and nothing should be.

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fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence


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Nordmann wrote: I promise

Nordmann wrote:
 I promise I'll be back to moderate you and remind you of your manners after five or six exchanges of "views" between the pair of you based on your (bloody reasonable) objections to his silliness.

It would be your right and my honour.

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MattShizzle wrote:I wonder

MattShizzle wrote:

I wonder if you could make some jesus cookies (ie cookies in a comical jesus shape) and put them in something that they can't be seen - and get a priest to bless the thing it's in (or get ahold of some holy water and use it as the water in the ingredients) would that technically be considered a "host?" or is there some weird ceremony they have to do for that?

Matt, it's called Transubstantiation.  The bread and wine are changed into the body and blood of Christ.  It has nothing to do with holy water - which is just blessed water.  If you're planning on using holy water in something you intend to consume I suggest boiling it first.  I drank some of the water at Lourdes once and as a result became seriously ill.  I'm sure thousands of people had their hands, etc. in the stuff.

 

 


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Nordmann wrote:HisWillness,

Nordmann wrote:
HisWillness, if you truly understand my frustration then your understanding must be based on having observed that I, and others, have attempted to point out to this site member politely in the past that his delusions are showing. We have attempted to discuss his delusions in a neutral manner, divorced from his personality (though the two are most obviously intertwined), only to be subjected to even greater heights of inanity for our efforts.
Well, when you already call it 'delusions' then it hardly can be in a neutral manner. I'm starting to be convinced, that your personality is the problem here. Don't think you're the first guy I had discussed with, others than you never had any problem with my personality, attitude, experiences, not at all. (of course they were all non-religional, theists are rare around here) This is why I think it's something with you, which causes the conflict. You're fighting with what you think I am, but not with me. This is why I seem arrogant, you made up a person who you don't like and I don't identify myself with that person. That must surely piss off anyone. If you would really understand me, then you could "show me a mirror" and throw me off my sanctimonious balance, or you would accept me for who I am. But for now, you're still chasing shadows.

 

Nordmann wrote:
If one of the functions of these forums is to make irrational people confront their problem, and if the irrationality in this case is exacerbated by self-obsession (as it most demonstrably is) which manifests itself most strongly in the delusional belief that the crapology he's bought into is not only rational but gives him a superiority over the rest of us because he "knows things" that we can only guess at, then perhaps you can explain to me how to go about it without addressing directly the self in question?
Self-obsession? Superiority? "Knowing things?" Hell, I'd like to love myself more, I've got far to self-obsession. I'm an individual and with all experiences I should speak for myself and about myself. Next, if I gave a false impression that I feel superior over anybody, then it's bullshit. For me, though all people are different, everyone are manifestation of One, I'd say metaphorically, that every person is a particle of God. People are not the same and they express their equal potential in a different rate, but this diversity must be welcomed and encouraged. 
And what are known things good for, if they're not put to practice? For nothing. No matter how many books I read, unless I put them to practice, they're worthless. A person may read Kamasutra hundred times, and still stay a virgin. It's doing, what makes the difference. Smiling Respect belongs to those, who do something significant. For example, MatShizzle, the savior of lives (felis silvestris catus) and Deludedgod, the Scientist. We may have disagreements, but I value what they're doing, and oppositely, my respect to their work doesn't make me  automatically agree with them in everything.

What if you would try a bit of empathy? It may happen to you, that you would see several UFOs (or bigfoots) at once, and unless you keep it for yourself forever, you'll quickly meet several "skeptics" who think that they know better than you what you saw, who you are and who your parents are. I'm sure you'd enjoy their healthy rationality.

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Yep,  we are hanging here

Yep,  we are hanging here under the stars .... dealing with our life imprisonment, of joys and resentments. 

The sounds of laughter and agony , screams of birth, nervous laughter, and war, all abound, as peace is but a dream.


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You stupid atheists! Why

You stupid atheists! Why don't you suck Hitler's dick since you love him so much! (oh wait, I am an atheist,,,,, Did I think this, or type it?)

 

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HisWillness wrote: Luminon

HisWillness wrote:

Luminon wrote:

Some biblic Jesus' preachings contains so unique thoughts, that whoever made them up, had to believe in them, live according to them, and preach them.

Not really unique. "Be nice to one another" isn't exactly original, and neither is "your thoughts can be sins". Your statements here aren't true.

I meant unique in that area (middle-east) for these times. What we see here, is a description of someone rebuilding a social norms, and to ensure that effect, provoking authorities so much, that he becomes a martyr. Whoever wrote this description, had to be either a damn good writer, or just wrote a history.
I had seen scientific opinions for and against Jesus' existence, for example, that there had been found a manuscript of Matt's evangelium from 1st century, when there still might been in Jeruzalem witnesses of what's written there.
For me, it's a significant project of rebuilding social norms, probably initiated by one individual, who I call Jesus, or Issa, if I should be linguistically precise. It's not supporting of Church, which parasites on that legacy.
Such people ocassionally appears almost everywhere, they see old norms, break them, teach something new, then die by less or more martyric death. After that, the teaching gathers more followers who makes the founder legendary, and in sooner or later the teaching becomes just as rigid and ready for a new revolution as a previous state was. That's a cycle of life, I don't know why Jesus should be an exception.

 

HisWillness wrote:
 
Luminon wrote:
I emphasize personal experience, which is sufficient for everyone

No it isn't. "My dog ate my homework" is the best example I can think of.

Yeah Smiling But a dog can eat (or just chew) a homework, right? Did you watch M.A.S.H. 4077? In one episode, there was B.F. Pierce estabilished as the guy who will give salaries to all the unit. Klinger bought a goat, so he will have a fresh milk. He left it for a while with Pierce's bag with money. Of course, a goat eats everything, including paper, so she ate Pierce's money for the whole unit. An investigator was sent, to find out if Pierce stole the money, and of course, the version with money-eating goat sounded to him like a total bullshit. He wrote a report to condemn Pierce for theft. But by a strange coincidence, the goat got to his tent and ate the report. So what should the investigator say, that a goat ate his report? And so the real justice won.
I think there's a great wisdom in this episode of M.A.S.H. If the goat really ate the money and Alan Alda didn't bribe a scenarist.


HisWillness wrote:
 
Luminon wrote:
You should realize, that not all evidence is portable.

Ah, but good evidence is.

Here it's appeal to popularity. You measure an evidence according to how many people can see it, not how convincing it is for an individual. So, what's the rate, how many people must see the evidence, if it should be true?

HisWillness wrote:
Luminon wrote:
It may be really hard evidence, undoubtable, even sometimes repeatable, but can't be mediated to any other person.

I can't think of an example, can you? No. That's because hard evidence is hard evidence. Repeatable, physical, or observable in some precise way.

If I'd say an example of such a not mediable evidence, by it's nature wouldn't convince you. Lol, what a dilemma Smiling If your dog ever ate your homework, you know what I mean. A true example of non-mediable evidence is non-mediable. This is the real world of evidences, it's not always such a paradise as you think. Are our great thinkers able to pass beyond that barrier? Or do they limit their rationality only on the safe waters? Behind every new invention, which was before unimaginable, was a hard work of people who made measurable, what initially wasn't. Normal logics is rather a mechanic process, a mapped path. Someone already verified that long ago. Surely, it's complicated area of knowledge, but it's already well known. Someone must expand that knowledge. Everything is logical, but not everything is objectively measurable unless someone makes it so. I admit that things which aren't yet commonly mastered are attractive for me. I didn't discover anything really new, but I've got a vague idea how big is what yet remains to be discovered. There will be always a problem of unprovable "homework eaten by dog" but this is a problem of those who comfortably wait for others to prove everything, so they can graciously give it an official consent.
A development is one thing, it's development in a certain direction, but someone must also invent the directions for development. A knowledge may be superior in one area, and may not even step into another area. Visionaries must first fight for their place in society. I don't like that, I'd like to skip that process of useless doubting and ridiculing. Every new thing should be welcomed, highlighted and understood from within, before a final judgement can be made.

You'd be surprised, how much a norms affects us. Who dictates what is possible and impossible, sane and insane, sets the rate of society's development. Norms are protective, but restrictive. Pushing the norms forward, and being aware, that they can be pushed infinitely, should itself become a norm! Smiling
 

HisWillness wrote:
  
Luminon wrote:
Sometimes it's important for people just to know that a certain idea exists, no matter if they think it's true or not.

Sure, but don't be surprised if someone demonstrates that the idea is false. Because advocating an idea that is demonstrably false is known either as fraud or simply lying.

Well, yeah, that may happen, but I rather meant something what is not demonstrable at the moment. When such an idea becomes known, it helps the person in case they would see it in practice. If not, well, world is big and life goes on.

 

 

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Luminon wrote:What if you

Luminon wrote:
What if you would try a bit of empathy? It may happen to you, that you would see several UFOs (or bigfoots) at once, and unless you keep it for yourself forever, you'll quickly meet several "skeptics" who think that they know better than you what you saw, who you are and who your parents are. I'm sure you'd enjoy their healthy rationality.

A skeptic, by nature, would probably describe a UFO as a flying object that (s)he couldn't identify. Thus "unidentified flying object". A skeptic isn't necessarily an expert on experimental aircraft. Simply not being able to identify an aircraft doesn't mean that it's immediately space aliens.

A "bigfoot" could very well be a woodland creature, so upon seeing one, a skeptic could easily find friends who were scientists and tell them, "no, really: I'm not joking. It wasn't a bear, it walked like a guy. Bring a camera, I'll show you were I saw it and we can track it."

I'm willing to guess we'd all appreciate the healthy dose of rationality that a space alien claim would receive from skeptics.

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Luminon wrote:I meant unique

Luminon wrote:
I meant unique in that area (middle-east) for these times. What we see here, is a description of someone rebuilding a social norms, and to ensure that effect, provoking authorities so much, that he becomes a martyr. Whoever wrote this description, had to be either a damn good writer, or just wrote a history.

Some problems here: first, the middle-east in those times were influenced by the Romans, who had by that time expressed many of these thoughts themselves, as had the Greeks. I repeat: there was nothing unique or novel about the teachings of Jesus. Nothing. Nowhere does there appear in the teachings of Jesus any unique philosophy, suggestion or idea that had not already been expressed by the Greeks, Romans, and Jewish culture at that time. Zero. Zilch.

Luminon wrote:
I had seen scientific opinions for and against Jesus' existence, for example, that there had been found a manuscript of Matt's evangelium from 1st century, when there still might been in Jeruzalem witnesses of what's written there.

There might have been witnesses. So what you have is a maybe witness of 2,000 years ago. Maybe you can see why I'm not compelled by this evidence?

Luminon wrote:
For me, it's a significant project of rebuilding social norms, probably initiated by one individual, who I call Jesus, or Issa, if I should be linguistically precise. It's not supporting of Church, which parasites on that legacy.

Issa? You mean that bit about St. Issa that some Russians made up? Okay, why do you figure first, that Jesus existed (despite the more reasonable explanation that he was a literary figure) and then why would you believe that he managed to travel to India? Then that Jesus and Issa are the same person, despite no real corroborating evidence? This is an unreasonable stretch by any standard.

Luminon wrote:
Such people ocassionally appears almost everywhere, they see old norms, break them, teach something new, then die by less or more martyric death.

No, they don't. It's not a common pattern or behaviour. I'm not sure where you got that idea, but if you have documentation of examples "almost everywhere" then I'll listen.

Luminon wrote:
Yeah Smiling But a dog can eat (or just chew) a homework, right? Did you watch M.A.S.H. 4077? In one episode, there was B.F. Pierce estabilished as the guy who will give salaries to all the unit. Klinger bought a goat, ...

I think there's a great wisdom in this episode of M.A.S.H. If the goat really ate the money and Alan Alda didn't bribe a scenarist.

You're citing M.A.S.H. I'm speechless.

Um ... huh. Okay, listen: first, I obviously owe Nordmann an apology, but that's water under the bridge. Second, using fiction to illustrate why something is true makes it difficult for me to understand your point. M.A.S.H. is fiction, and we're discussing non-fiction.

My point was that just because something is possible, doesn't make it true.

HisWillness wrote:
 
Luminon wrote:
You should realize, that not all evidence is portable.

Ah, but good evidence is.

Here it's appeal to popularity. You measure an evidence according to how many people can see it, not how convincing it is for an individual. So, what's the rate, how many people must see the evidence, if it should be true?

That's not an appeal to popularity when the evidence undergoes the rigours of the scientific method. The scientific method is specifically designed to remove bias, and bias is what an appeal to popularity centers around. The process is, of course, not perfect, but has resulted in the most consistent and reliable body of knowledge ever achieved by mankind. Ever. Bar none, we are more knowledgeable about our world than in any other period in history thanks entirely to the bias-removing process of the scientific method.

Luminon wrote:
If I'd say an example of such a not mediable evidence, by it's nature wouldn't convince you. Lol, what a dilemma Smiling If your dog ever ate your homework, you know what I mean. A true example of non-mediable evidence is non-mediable. This is the real world of evidences, it's not always such a paradise as you think.

I'll wait until the hard evidence arrives, then, to assert any notions about my universe instead of making those assertions from ignorance. By "non-mediable" I'm assuming you mean "impossible to communicate"? "Incommunicable" is probably the word you're looking for, and if evidence is incommunicable, then it's hardly evidence. Then, it's a subjective, anecdotal experience that may or may not stand up to the rigours of the scientific method (once again: the most successful method of attaining knowledge ever in the history of mankind).

Luminon wrote:
Behind every new invention, which was before unimaginable, was a hard work of people who made measurable, what initially wasn't.

No again. Behind most new innovations was a hypothesis waiting to be tested. Sometimes innovations are just flukes! You're making myth, here. These kinds of statements -- which sound great as part of a movie script -- are fiction. Pure fiction.

Luminon wrote:
There will be always a problem of unprovable "homework eaten by dog" but this is a problem of those who comfortably wait for others to prove everything, so they can graciously give it an official consent.

Not quite. Scientists work extremely hard, and are not waiting for the truth to reveal itself. The only thing we can do to find out if something is true is to test, test, test, and test some more. That's how you know something's true.

Luminon wrote:
Visionaries must first fight for their place in society. I don't like that, I'd like to skip that process of useless doubting and ridiculing. Every new thing should be welcomed, highlighted and understood from within, before a final judgement can be made.

Then test! You must do the work if you expect others to believe. You must make a compelling case for truth where your hypothesis doesn't fit with the established facts precisely because they are established facts. For new and exciting developments, you must work to discover their truth, as many others have worked to establish truths.

The way the scientific method works is actually as you describe: a statement is made, and then it's subjected to falsification. If the statement is found to be false, we move on, knowing that something is false. The unanswered questions and facts don't really make up the body of knowledge, it's what we've proven to be false that makes up the body of knowledge.

Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence


MattShizzle
Posts: 7966
Joined: 2006-03-31
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It's shocking that Catholics

It's shocking that Catholics would find trashing a cracker worse than This.

 

It's also funny picturing 2 drunk bums and one saying "Hey, man! Look what I found! Jesus is in the trash man! He's a bum like we are!"

 

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