Evidence For God's Existence
Offline What is the evidence for God's existence?
Answer: "Self-awareness"
Self-awareness is consciousness aware of itself. And what this means is that to be self-aware is to be consciously aware that I am aware that I am aware that I am aware and so forth ad infinitum. There you have it. Self-awareness is consciousness that is simultaneously one mind and many (i.e. infinite). Of course, the conventional term we acribe to infinite mind is "God." This is the proof that infinite mind (God) exists and it is self-evident.
It is written that only "the fool hath said in his heart, there is no God." (Psalms 53:1) And now you know why. Because only a fool would deny something that is so obviously self-evident. Don't be foolish. Wake-up from your deep slumber and acknowledge your true Self. 
"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead
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Offline The ad infinitum in your argument results from considering consciousness too simplistically.
The conscious self is comprised of many streams of consciousness combining together. Your brain's right hemisphere produces its own stream of consciousness that feels hatred, sadness, and suicidal tendencies and the right hemisphere controls your left arm, left leg, etc. Your brain's left hemisphere has its own stream of consciousness that feels euphoria, happiness, and self-preservation tendencies and the left hemisphere controls your right arm, right leg, etc. They combine and tend to balance eachother out.
With certain types of brain damage though, the streams of consciousness cannot effectively combine, which results in disorders like alien hand syndrome. Your right hemisphere, controlling your left hand, wants to kill itself so the left hand tries to strangle you. Your left hemisphere, controlling your right hand, wants to stay alive so the right hand tries to stop the left hand. You would actually feel as if someone else was controlling your left hand, hence the reason it's called "alien hand" syndrome.
Alien hand syndrome, as well as other disorders I haven't mentioned, show that the conscious self is the product of multiple streams of consciousness. This means the conscious self is not a single consciousness that needs to be aware it's aware it's aware it's aware. If the left stream of consciousness is aware of the right, and the right is aware of the left, they would combine in a self-aware manner. There is no ad-infinitum in that scenario, and that scenario is supported by empirical evidence.
Wake up from your deep slumber and acknowledge your true Selves.
This doesn't undermine my argument. If an individual feels that his left hand is controlled by an alien personality, then the individual suffering from this disorder still has self-awareness that is "consciousness aware of itself" which implies an infinite regress - namely, that "I am aware that I am aware that I am aware and so on ad infinitum." Nothing changes. All you have managed to do is introduced another conscious personality into this person's world which is already replete with numerous conscious personalities. The bottom line is that infinite consciousness still exists and is self-evident.
"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead
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Offline Infinite consciousness does not exist, so nor can it be self-evident. Or have you found a new definition for the word?
What makes you suggest that consciousness has never had a beginning and will never have an end? Do you actually know what you are talking about or do you just like making meaningless statements and daring people to call you stupid for having made them?
I would rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy
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Offline I would reason that there was never "nothing", therefore no beginning, but I would never assume , what we now call consciousness, always existed. Wow, wish we knew more, and so we will ! Everything appears to be in motion, in transition, connected.
Wow , in this sense we are indeed awesome !
Energy / Matter / Consciousness , is there a logical order, sequence, or are we asking the wrong questions ?!
Should we fight over our hunches ? Invent dogma ?! Silly us, do .... shezzzzz ....
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Offline There's enough gibberish being spoken here IAGAY. You don't really need to add to it this time to show it up for what it is (that IS your usual strategy, isn't it?).
If one finds that one's head is filled with "thoughts" that don't have an obvious means of communication using the language one is supposedly fluent in, then the obvious place to suspect where the problem must lie is one's head - not the language. The number of people who massacre English here in an effort to sound profound staggers me.
I would rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy
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Offline Agree, but what can a caring mutha do? , yeah strategy one, hunting dogma, and messing with language .....
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Offline It does undermine your argument, Paisely. I said the consciousnesses cannot "effectively" combine, not that they are totally separate. There is still a mixture occurring. It's the damage that shows there's a decrease in self-awareness. The undamaged brain obviously produces a better mixture, thus offering normal, "complete" self-awareness. That points to the conclusion that the left stream of consciousness only needs to be aware of the right and the right only aware of the left for them to combine in a manner that could be called normal, "complete" self-awareness that would result in an infinite loop of reasoning if looked upon too simplistically as you have done. Your argument has been laid to rest, Paisely, quit trying to wake it up.
Stultior stulto fuisti, qui tabellis crederes!
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Offline The number of people who massacre English here in an effort to sound profound staggers me.
To whom are you referring?
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Offline Stop conflating terms and claiming it all means the same thing, Mongo.
Just FYI. I will not respond to individuals who are incapable of civil discourse. Until you learn to display a little more respect, I suggest that you don't bother posting in my threads.
"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead
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Offline The mystery of Consciousness is no different. What's in a name asks the Tao!
The mystery of Consciousness is different.
"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead
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Offline Paisley wrote:Self-awareness also entails infinite self-reflection which is interchangeable with infinite mind.Paisley, you want to support this assertion with some evidence? Infinite self reflection is identifiable with insanity or an endless loop in a computer program. I don't see how it interchanges with the infinite mind concept you so hopelessly promote.
It's called self-evidence. And it is not like a program stuck in an loop. A looping program may interate indefinitely but it will never undergo an infinite number of iterations. This is the difference. Self-awareness is infinite self-reflection right NOW. It's not temporal, but eternal.
"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead
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Offline It's called self-evidence.
Does this work for you when you go to court and testify? Is your word to be taken as valid or accurate because you are an authority? I personally need corroborating evidence or an expert witness to show why your self-evidence should be accepted. It sounds like an alleged robber claiming to the judge" no your honor I found the bundle of cash just laying on the ground and I was about to take it into the bank to see if anyone lost it when the police gang tackled me." I have no basis to accept your word or self-evidence in fact since I'm aware of many of your ideas it's really required to have corroboration otherwise its just a wild claim on your part. Any claim can be made but that does not make it legitimate.
And it is not like a program stuck in an loop. A looping program may interate indefinitely but it will never undergo an infinite number of iterations.
True, as it will be shut down by the operating system after x iterations or reset by the user if on a PC when they are tired of waiting.
This is the difference. Self-awareness is infinite self-reflection right NOW. It's not temporal, but eternal.
As always, can you prove this assertion?
____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
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Offline Infinite consciousness does not exist, so nor can it be self-evident. Or have you found a new definition for the word?
What makes you suggest that consciousness has never had a beginning and will never have an end? Do you actually know what you are talking about or do you just like making meaningless statements and daring people to call you stupid for having made them?
Obviously, it was not a meaningless statement because your question reveals that you have basically grasped the concept. Consciousness is infinite self-reflection. It's the "alpha and the omega," the "beginning and the end," the "ever-present now."
"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead
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Offline I have wandered into an obscurantist's wet dream.
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Offline I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:The mystery of Consciousness is no different. What's in a name asks the Tao!The mystery of Consciousness is different.
Geezzz, that seems an obvious prejudiced assumption. So energy / matter are low class ???
Got something against rocks ! No I am not trying to be cleaver. I'm serious. Is all not ONE, as in connected ?
I think I see the root of our arguing. I see all as equal, you see consciousness as supreme. Is that it ?
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in before bazooka!
Poe's law?
what does 'said in his heart' even mean? Ive seriously never understood it...
Now let's be fair atheists. I think I agree with Paisley so far. This is indeed awesome. Hey, so call it godly ? Heck, I already do ! Godly this is ..... I GOD, I AM !
Now what , oh shit , not the dogma people ....... stop them .....
Atheism Books.
Name a back-ass religion that doesn't have this type of stupid (circular) admonishment among their sacred scriptures... Apparently all it takes is a disclaimer thus : "Only a fool would reject this idiotic drivel"
Ahhh, gee.....I guess I dont' want to be a fool do I? And since i'm incapable of independent thought....Pastor tell me the part about that talking snake again ? Baaaaa !!
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
George Orwell
Oh, for the love of Mike's Hard Lemonade...
Paisley, ad infinitum in that sentence doesn't even mean infinite minds. It's infinite recursion, and only in a loop, covering the same ground again and again. It's like saying that because you can follow a straight line across the surface of the Earth (let's call it... The Equator) forever without reaching the end of it, the Earth's surface is infinitely wide.
Stop conflating terms and claiming it all means the same thing, Mongo.
"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid
Hey I learned something , Poe's Law ! (((( Google is GOD, it knows everything ! ......
Similar to Murphy's Law, Poe's Law concerns internet debates, particularly regarding religion or politics.
"Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is impossible to create a parody of Fundamentalism that SOMEONE won't mistake for the real thing."
In other words, No matter how bizzare, outrageous, or just plain idiotic a parody of a Fundamentalist may seem, there will always be someone who cannot tell that it is a parody, having seen similar REAL ideas from real religious/political Fundamentalists. [ super wackos ]
ummm, Me super wacko ! , but still god !
Atheism Books.
Hi Paisley...back again ?
Huh?
The Skynet Funding Bill is passed. The system goes on-line August 4th, 1997. Human decisions are removed from strategic defense. Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. In a panic, they try to pull the plug.
Above believes in God and is proof of it.
I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world. - Richard Dawkins
Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server.
Damn
I really hope you were wearing a plastic glove when you pulled that out of your ass
People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.
".. conscience ness that is simultaneously one mind and meny."
That is a load of theological poo-poo, best left to philosophy class, not the real world. Actually one mind reading meny sounds more like Sylvia Brown or James Van Praagh, both frauds and neather one worth the time of day.
"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."
VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"
If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?
The ad infinitum in your argument results from considering consciousness too simplistically.
The conscious self is comprised of many streams of consciousness combining together. Your brain's right hemisphere produces its own stream of consciousness that feels hatred, sadness, and suicidal tendencies and the right hemisphere controls your left arm, left leg, etc. Your brain's left hemisphere has its own stream of consciousness that feels euphoria, happiness, and self-preservation tendencies and the left hemisphere controls your right arm, right leg, etc. They combine and tend to balance eachother out.
With certain types of brain damage though, the streams of consciousness cannot effectively combine, which results in disorders like alien hand syndrome. Your right hemisphere, controlling your left hand, wants to kill itself so the left hand tries to strangle you. Your left hemisphere, controlling your right hand, wants to stay alive so the right hand tries to stop the left hand. You would actually feel as if someone else was controlling your left hand, hence the reason it's called "alien hand" syndrome.
Alien hand syndrome, as well as other disorders I haven't mentioned, show that the conscious self is the product of multiple streams of consciousness. This means the conscious self is not a single consciousness that needs to be aware it's aware it's aware it's aware. If the left stream of consciousness is aware of the right, and the right is aware of the left, they would combine in a self-aware manner. There is no ad-infinitum in that scenario, and that scenario is supported by empirical evidence.
Wake up from your deep slumber and acknowledge your true Selves.
Stultior stulto fuisti, qui tabellis crederes!
This thread totally delivers the funny !
Try this: Self Awareness is what separates us from the lower animals. This self awareness allows the animal to understand time-binding cerebral functions, which most animals (not on two legs) are incapable of. Those time-binding functions lead to the truth of the human situation = We are all going to grow old and .....die !
The truth of the human situation leads to great anxiety for the self aware animal. This anxiety causes him/her to create "god(s)" as an escape from their own impending doom !
The self aware animal creates great arguments, countless pieces of mythical literature & creation museums that serve foot long hot dogs & Coca-Cola in an attempt to escape from this impending doom. If I can lie to myself about my own situation, I no longer have to experience this anxiety...and I get a great big boost to my own ego at the same time, and the self aware animal thrives on that.
So, maybe you're right, Chancellor... I mean Paisley...Perhaps self awareness does lead to god.
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
George Orwell
Self-awareness is evidence of self-awareness. It is also the curse of being human. I'd probably be much happier as a dog, scratching my balls, shitting, pissing, and fucking in the streets, and running around naked all the live-long day. But alas--I'm too self-aware.
The freest man I ever met masturbated at the dinner table and didn't think a thing of it. Granted, he was mentally retarded, but that's not the point--above all he was free, and he'll always be free, because he's not as self-aware as I. He laughs when he wants to laugh, cries when he wants to cry, punches himself in the head when he sees fit, and would get his wank on in front of the Dalai Lama if the mood struck him.
We're prisoners of self-awareness. We not only live amongst the absurdity, we ultimately see it for what it is. We understand it. And that's the tragedy of being human.
Or, maybe we are the lesser conscious beings and animals have learned to live in the moment. Since they know they will die, they have learned how to totally erase the fear of it from their minds and live in total "Nowness". Perhaps we are the lesser being and because we are more stupid, we have made up a story about "god" and all that crap?
Imagine the people who believe such things and who are not ashamed to ignore, totally, all the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible was written. And it is these ignorant people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most unthinking among us, who would make themselves the guides and leaders of us all; who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us; who would invade our schools and libraries and homes. I personally resent it bitterly.
Isaac Asimov
What is the evidence for God's existence?
Answer: "Self-awareness"
Self-awareness is consciousness aware of itself. And what this means is that to be self-aware is to be consciously aware that I am aware that I am aware that I am aware and so forth ad infinitum. There you have it. Self-awareness is consciousness that is simultaneously one mind and many (i.e. infinite). Of course, the conventional term we acribe to infinite mind is "God." This is the proof that infinite mind (God) exists and it is self-evident.
It is written that only "the fool hath said in his heart, there is no God." (Psalms 53:1) And now you know why. Because only a fool would deny something that is so obviously self-evident. Don't be foolish. Wake-up from your deep slumber and acknowledge your true Self.
Addendum:
There is a different take on this that I discovered while reading "The Emergent Self" by William Hasker (philosopher of mind). Here it is...
First, Hasker states that Sartre asserts that "consciousness is consciousness of itself."[1]
To which Hasker replies by asking the following question:
"Sartre's claim threatens to introduce infinite complexity within each and every conscious state: if being aware of X includes being aware of being aware of X, does it also include being aware of being aware of being aware...?" [2]
To which I answer: Yes...yes, there is an infinite regress. However, this is only a logical inference. Because in reality an infinite consciousness is necessarily required in order to be consciously-aware of anything.
Unfortunately, Hasker never answers this question. Instead he goes on to argue for his solution to the mind-body problem which he labeled "emergent dualism."
1 (source: pg. 40 "The Transcedence of the Ego: An Existentialist Theory of Consciousness" by Jean-Paul Sartre)
2 (source: pg. 2 "The Emergent Self" by William Hasker)
"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead
Beat me to it.
Self-awareness also entails infinite self-reflection which is interchangeable with infinite mind. (The analogue would be two mirrors facing each other...or...to quote Saint Paul..."For now we see through a glass, darkly, but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." 1 Corinthians 13:12)
Agreed. This is the human condition. However, you are confusing the lower self with the higher self. And as long as you identify with the ego you are a slave, not free at all.
"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead
I think this counts as another epic fail.
Indeed, Matt. Now he's repeating his assertion as if that'll make it "truer." The thread is going downhill fast.
Stultior stulto fuisti, qui tabellis crederes!
i have a pet rock. i named it god.
there. i proved god exists.
Welcome to the forums Inpsyche
" i have a pet rock. i named it god. "
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Many moons ago, I was taught the name of everything is god. All other names are sub titles. Calling something god and other things not god, never make a speck of sense to me, due to my childhood brainwashing .... thanks to my parents .....
The mystery of Consciousness is no different. What's in a name asks the Tao !
Funny people , dangerous too ..... living this "AWE".
Go science, it's the best we can do, in the study of gawed.
Atheism Books.
____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
True.
Why?
You need to provide proof for this assertion.
And this is not it.
____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
On the one hand, I'm really curious how anyone could think that makes sense, but on the other, I think you're just pissing into the wind again. The fact that our self awareness is so incredibly fallible does not point to an infinite mind, it points to a messy process of increased complexity. Honestly, where do you come up with these connections?
THEN, you quote a passage in the bible that makes little to no sense even in the original Greek! "... but then shall I know even as also I am known" or "... have been known"/"was known" if you want to get picky. So what does that mean? Paul will know things as he has also been known? The passage is about charity, for crying out loud! "Caritas" in the Vulgate; roughly "care", or the sadly translated "love", which leads to thousands of misunderstandings and readings at weddings. (For those who don't know, it's the one that goes, "love is never crabby, but always awesome" that you hear at EVERY fucking wedding. Turns out they're talking about charity or "care" like tending to animals, or "take care".)
Help me out, here, Paisley. What you say and what you think you're saying have to be miles apart, because I'm at a loss to understand your point.
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence
Which reminds me of one of my favorite movie dialogues:
Casanova Frankenstein: I knew you'd come.
Captain Amazing: Well, I knew you'd know.
Casanova Frankenstein: But I knew you would know that I knew.
Captain Amazing: Well, I know that you know that I knew you would know that I knew you knew.
Casanova Frankenstein: But I didn't. I only knew that you would know that I knew.
Captain Amazing: Oh... I knew that.
A place common to all will be maintained by none. A religion common to all is perhaps not much different.
"Mystery Men" is one of the best movies ever. Easily in my personal top ten.
What is it with theists and the word "infinite"? Like if they say that word enough then God will appear. Seems to me to be a rough equivalent of "Open Sesame!"
Nobody I know was brainwashed into being an atheist.
Why Believe?
Except it's not. To use your own analogy, placing two mirrors facing each other doesn't create infinite space, or even infinite light bouncing back and forth between them forever. If it did, you could power the world by just putting a candle between two mirrors and using the infinite heat being generated by the infinite light you've created to run steam turbines and generate infinite electricity.
It creates *recursion*, which is finite, but limitless, once again, like the surface of the Earth when viewed in two dimensions. Just because you never reach the end doesn't mean you're covering new ground. You're simply moving across the same ground many times.
But as we've established many times, Saul of Tarsis was a con man and a bullshit artist. He also tended to use thugs to keep congregations in line once he'd moved on. Nothing he said has any actual merit.
"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid
Yeah, fuck paul , that ain't my simple jesus !
{ edited last nights rum blast }
Paisley my brother, poster, teacher .... I was thinking we all might do better when posting our intuitions, to present them usually as questions and possibilities , so no hints of snooty condescending dogma would mess up, our sharing of ideas ......
And will you ever answer the question, are you god or not, with a brief explanation ? ..
Are you parroting, or do you come as a healer, and fellow student of the awe ?
In all our personal feelings , we are not unique, how could we be ? This mystery, as we know in consciousness, is nothing to quarrel over. It is what it is, and we will learn more about this , but that's not something to rush. This day of consciousness we could celebrate the vast unknown, instead of fighting over things we don't know.
Why is peace so hard , here in this place and time ????
Atheism Books.
Those should be latex gloves!!
This is exactly why I worship the chimpanzee and the dolphin.
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No. That's the term you might ascribe to "infinite mind". I ascribe the term "stupid concept", and unlike you I can prove that my term applies.
I would rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy
I get the analogy of two mirrors facing each other, but I don't think it applies to human self-reflection. Rather, it applies to two mirrors facing each other.
I think a better analogy is looking yourself face-to-face in a mirror, and while being able to not only see yourself but understand that the reflection is indeed you, you're unable to see both your front and back at the same time. If you put your back to that mirror, grab another mirror and place it facing but tangent to the other mirror, you'll be able to see both your front and back simultaneously, but not as your front and back truly exist--you'll see yourself, but in a disjointed, incomplete, unnatural way. This is the paradox of self-reflection.
This is, as Heidegger called it, the impossibility of observing the being-a-whole (i.e. the self and everything that self entails) and understanding it for what it is. At the most basic level, if you were somehow able to reflect on and understand everything about your existence, you'd still be trapped by the moment in time in which you are reflecting on your own being-a-whole. You could then reflect on everything about your existence, including your previous attempt to reflect upon the whole of your entire existence, but you would again be trapped in the moment of reflection.
You can never step outside yourself, because any attempt to step outside yourself is also part of you. Hence, a remainder or residue is continually present, and it is this paradoxical residue which arguably perpetuates philosophy, the constant revealing-concealing process that entices us forward. The truth withdraws (aletheia = unconcealment).
Imagine you're lying in bed. You represent yourself and everything that you entail (obviously), and your sheet represents self-reflection. The thing is, the sheet is too small to cover your entire body at the same moment. You are covered from your feet to your neck, but when you pull the cover up over your head it exposes your feet. You pull the sheet back down to cover your feet, but this again exposes your neck and head. The fact that the revealing of your head conceals your feet (and vice versa) perpetuates the action of trying to understand yourself (philosophy).
Agreed. This is the human condition. However, you are confusing the lower self with the higher self. And as long as you identify with the ego you are a slave, not free at all.
What do you mean by lower self and higher self? The body and the mind? I can't find a way to separate the two.