What could oppose God's will?

dassercha
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What could oppose God's will?

NOTHING!!!!! Could oppose God's will!!!!! -- Bill Hicks on Satan.

Well, theists? I think a good question has been asked...

 

 

 


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I give you good odds that

I give you good odds that the theist answer involves free will.


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From what I have seen, Buffy

From what I have seen, Buffy could oppose god's will and get laid at the same time.

The concept is just one more of the incongruities required for the faulty hypothesis of an all power god. At least the Greeks explained such problems by gods working at cross purposes.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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I don't know.  But I'm a

I don't know.  But I'm a huge Bill Hicks fan. 


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And the correct answer is,

And the correct answer is,  "God done it" ! [ GAWED ]

                 Yep, INDEED , now what ? 

      Well for one,   KILL ALL religious DOGMA !

                                


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God's will is....

paradoxical no matter what we try to understand about it. In a sense, God cannot have a will because he is unchanging as pure being. If he had desires they would imply he could be affected by them which would imply he can change. But he cannot. In another sense, the holy spirit can be thought of as interfacing with man's will to achieve God's ultimate will which was set in motion before the creation of the universe.  All of these are really mental models that try to explain how God works. Yet we can also think of God as the master of plan B. No matter what we do, God has a "personal will" for our life whenever we would like to follow it. And yet it is paradoxical because it impossible to deviate from God's ultimate will. (In a sense though that statement has no meaning (by way of practical application.))

 

 


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JustAnotherBeliever

JustAnotherBeliever wrote:

paradoxical no matter what we try to understand about it. In a sense, God cannot have a will because he is unchanging as pure being. If he had desires they would imply he could be affected by them which would imply he can change. But he cannot. In another sense, the holy spirit can be thought of as interfacing with man's will to achieve God's ultimate will which was set in motion before the creation of the universe.  All of these are really mental models that try to explain how God works. Yet we can also think of God as the master of plan B. No matter what we do, God has a "personal will" for our life whenever we would like to follow it. And yet it is paradoxical because it impossible to deviate from God's ultimate will. (In a sense though that statement has no meaning (by way of practical application.))

 

 

 

Well, in the Bible God seems to change all the time. After all, he made  man with the neat little plan that he would live in the garden forever, and then was surprised and even angry when man messed up. He then encouraged man to fornicate and multiply, though, after a few generations he decided that this isn't what he really wanted, and man had grown too boisterous, so he murders just about every living thing on the planet. Afterwards, he decides that this was not a very good idea, so he promises never to do it again. Then, he gives them a strict set of rules to follow in a very strict way, and lo and behold, a few thousand years later he changes his mind and decides that the rules didn't really have to be followed to the letter, and in fact he was willing to be lenient.

If God has no will, why does he desire people to worship him? How can a "pure and unchanging" being, with zero desires, wish to be pampered and ass-kissed by imperfect beings?


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Exactly...

Yes, you have hit it right on the head. Those concepts do not go together very well. Noone knows what happened to cause those texts to be written. They appear to more than fable, but somehow don't appear to be consistent with what we know as reality. The best guess answer is that these are teaching parables. Somehow the writer was inspired by special revelation (you might call insanity). Although some may take them literally, it is not necessary to.

The reason for the required worship is best explained that knowing we are a very irrational race, that we will put value (worship) on things that do not have intrinsic value, it is best to worship God himself for "our" own good. Not for his.  Hence the 1st and 2nd commandment. (Which are impossible to do by the way ). The rest of them may be possible in some way to attempt to fulfill. But still only in deed and not in thought.

 


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JustAnotherBeliever

JustAnotherBeliever wrote:

Yes, you have hit it right on the head. Those concepts do not go together very well. Noone knows what happened to cause those texts to be written. They appear to more than fable, but somehow don't appear to be consistent with what we know as reality. The best guess answer is that these are teaching parables. Somehow the writer was inspired by special revelation (you might call insanity). Although some may take them literally, it is not necessary to.

The reason for the required worship is best explained that knowing we are a very irrational race, that we will put value (worship) on things that do not have intrinsic value, it is best to worship God himself for "our" own good. Not for his.  Hence the 1st and 2nd commandment. (Which are impossible to do by the way ). The rest of them may be possible in some way to attempt to fulfill. But still only in deed and not in thought.

 

 

I fail to see why "they appear to be more than a fable", because that's sure what the bible myths look like to me.

So you are implying that God does not actually desire worship?


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yes and no

The best, but not satisfactory, explanation I can give is that God doesnt not desire anything or need anything...he is totally self sufficient and complete...pure being..."I am who I am."

 But from what we try to understand from scripture, the holy spirit "enjoys" our worship.  The anthropomophic view we get from scripture is that he desires worship. Its a mental model that we use try to understand and relate God to each other. But it does not adequately describe God very well. Jesus is the personalization of God. Everything God would do if he were a man. After he died he could send the holy spirit (kind of like obi wan kenobi did for luke skywalker). Hence, Gods only way to have man relate to him was to become a man.


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MattShizzle wrote:I give you

MattShizzle wrote:

I give you good odds that the theist answer involves free will.

Except, of course, that angels, not having souls, don't get free will in Judeo-Christian theology. So I'm kinda hoping the theist answer *does* include free will, because that then forces them to admit that Satan's a loyal servant of God. Eye-wink

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JustAnotherBeliever

JustAnotherBeliever wrote:

Hence the 1st and 2nd commandment. (Which are impossible to do by the way ).

What makes you say that?

I am THE LORD thy God, thou shalt have no other gods before Me;

Thou shalt worship no graven image;

What's so hard about those? If you worship ol' I AM WHO AM (not to be confused with our own I AM GOD AS YOU), why's it so hard to not worship anyone else? Been praying to Ba'al lately? Hephaestus? And why do you need a physical representation of the ineffable? If you can't comprehend the fullness of God, how can you expect to accurately represent Him? And if you can't accurately represent him... why would you try? Do you need to have something you can point little kids at to say 'pray to that statue'? I've known quite a number of protestants who seem to manage a pretty good job on the 'no graven images' thing.

Maybe that's part of the problem so many theists have: you have problems trying to contemplate divinity in the abstract, but even God told you that's all He can ever be: an abstract, a concept.

"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid


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BMcD ... that was some right

BMcD ... that was some right nice gawedly atheist gospel there my saved brother, walking above the sea of the peoples delusion .... feeding the mentally fearful guilt ridden spiritually poor with the simple truth, healing the blind and curing the lepers of ugly sickly thinking, awakening the walking dead, and feeding the hungry masses as in the wisdom of sharing a bit of extra food, bread and fish. YES YEAH, as the ONENESS of the christ perfection is in YOU.      LOL  

                                  ..... hey a new word , "Yesyeah" !  *                    *      *

                                             ahhh fuck you spell check, you dumb machine     

   


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yes

much of what you say is true. It its impossible to follow the 1st two commandments, worshipping God the concept alone. We tend to worship (or ascribe value to other things). The knowledge that we cannot follow the law perfectly leads us to the one who is the fulfillment of the law, the messiah.

Apparently angels will is different than mans will. Satan, being the most perfect creation, started to worhip himself. And when he fell he took 1/3 of heaven with him, supposedly, because he was in charge of 1/3 of heaven before he fell. So the ones who were under him went with him. Its not like 1/3 naturally freely chose to go with him.

But other than those, angels naturally tend to do Gods will. As we will, in heaven. Some say satan hates us because we will be over the angels in heaven because we have free will. So we could choose to serve God.

Ironically, to follow someone is to do as they do. So if we follow satan, we do as he does and worship ourselves. If we follow Jesus we do as he does and worship God.

 


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JustAnotherBeliever Hi

 JustAnotherBeliever

 Hi  , maybe you will enjoy some of this site, I did some .... 

   "Atheists for Jesus"

http://www.atheists-for-jesus.com/

   Google "Atheists for Jesus" etc, for other related discussions. The Buddha and Hindus fans are interesting thinkers.  "Buddha and Jesus"  etc etc 

 


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JustAnotherBeliever

JustAnotherBeliever wrote:

much of what you say is true. It its impossible to follow the 1st two commandments, worshipping God the concept alone. We tend to worship (or ascribe value to other things). The knowledge that we cannot follow the law perfectly leads us to the one who is the fulfillment of the law, the messiah.

Apparently angels will is different than mans will. Satan, being the most perfect creation, started to worhip himself. And when he fell he took 1/3 of heaven with him, supposedly, because he was in charge of 1/3 of heaven before he fell. So the ones who were under him went with him. Its not like 1/3 naturally freely chose to go with him.

But other than those, angels naturally tend to do Gods will. As we will, in heaven. Some say satan hates us because we will be over the angels in heaven because we have free will. So we could choose to serve God.

Ironically, to follow someone is to do as they do. So if we follow satan, we do as he does and worship ourselves. If we follow Jesus we do as he does and worship God.

 

 

I appreciate your responses so far!

Few things here:

How stupid was Satan knowing he couldn't win in the end?

Do you believe Satan has the power to create?

Which leads to: how do you explain the hermaphadites/intersexed phenomenon?

Why do you think Yahweh created us biologically to share so many features and characteristics as other mammals? Is he lazy?

Why would this god, so full of love say, if it is not reciprocated, you will burn in eternal hellfire? Imagine saying this to a child of yours.

I can think of more, but that should be a start. Thanks in advance! Smiling

 

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 I appreciate your

 I appreciate your responses so far!

Thanks!

Few things here:

How stupid was Satan knowing he couldn't win in the end?

This is one of the great conundrums. Satan knows he's going to "lose". Why does he bother? It could be that he views any small win at all as a win. If he can drag as many as possible with him, then he wins. It's kind of a win-win situation. No matter he has enormous power now and he will be "in charge" of hell perhaps in the future. Satan has the best of jobs. All he has to do is give us what we want. We tempt ourselves by our own desires, so we have ourselves to blame mostly. Technically, we cannot blame him on judgment day.

Do you believe Satan has the power to create?

I dont think satan can create. He may be able to take the form of people as apparently angels can. I dont know why he would. He is the master overseer. Satan does not need to trifle with most of us who are not interfering in any of his master plans.

Which leads to: how do you explain the hermaphadites/intersexed phenomenon?

Any birth defect can be thought of as not as God would have intended the world to be if there was no sin. I don't know what exactly happened during the fall. I'm not saying the adam and eve story actually happened that way but it is at least a metaphor for the way we are, a fallen race. God allows the fall but has a plan to redeem mankind. He apparently allows all this because for us to have free will is of utmost important. Yet free will is still paradoxical.

Why do you think Yahweh created us biologically to share so many features and characteristics as other mammals? Is he lazy?

Some believe that process of evolution is the only way to get mankind where we are today so the planet can have the correct biomass for all ecosystems to exist.  Technically we can picture adam being created from dust, but taking millions of years to do so, and through natural processes. I picture getting it all to work together as being a major pain in the ass for God. But thats just me.

Why would this god, so full of love say, if it is not reciprocated, you will burn in eternal hellfire? Imagine saying this to a child of yours.

This is one of the toughest questions I still struggle with. I have written some random thoughts down that I guess I could post somewhere but its kind of long. In short, I think we dont so much have a problem with the justice of God as much as it being eternal...especially eternal torment which doesnt sound too fair.  I don't think we get thrown into hell kicking and screaming. Hell is a place we choose to go because we would rather be there than being somewhere where we have to serve God 24/7.  I don't know why any of us choose the way we do.  But God will absolutely not force us to serve him for all eternity.

I can think of more, but that should be a start. Thanks in advance! Smiling

Hope I didnt mess up the text in this post...we'll see..I was hesitant to use the quotes function...

 


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JustAnotherBeliever:Hoping

JustAnotherBeliever:

Hoping you didn't glaze over theotherguy post #6. The OT is full of God killing, destroying, especially women & innocent children; changing his mind & on and on, etc. Can you say, "primitive sheepherders vying for limited resources, projecting much"?

Intersexed: how can this be a consequence of the Fall? You have no freewill to choose your orientation in this case. Disease and maladies of all sort can exist to test your faith, sure, but remember Yahweh created adam & eve, not adam & steve. This phenomenon simply cannot exist in your paradigm as I see it. Do you?

 

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How is that not forcing?

How is that not forcing? Would you say slaves were perfectly willing because the Master didn't force them to serve him? They after all could have "chosen" to be beaten and killed instead. "Serve me or be tortured forever" is not reasonable by any sane analysis. If it was really about not forcing anyone to serve, he easily could have come up with any number of non-hellish alternatives. And of course not believing in the Christian god isn't making a choice - it's just not falling for a fairy tale (or believing the wrong one)

Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team


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yes

those are good points. It wouldn't be out of love if you were being forced to serve God to just avoid hell. Unfortunately, this is what we taught as christians. Heaven, the great fire escape. That theology is terrible. I also agree that pascals wager is not logically sound. Noone ever truly came to real faith in God over the threat of hell. It is more of an impediment than an invitation. But on the flip side, there has to be somewhere for those to go who ultimately dont want to be with God. I dont think there will be anyone after death who wished they chose God. I dont think hell will be that bad for many. Hell is punishment and restraint like jail for those who would "need" it. Some people in jail go to jobs during the week. They dont need as much restraint because they are not going to hurt people. Everyones punishment is different. Not everyone in heaven will appreciate it the same way either. My mentors mentor explains it pretty well here. Its short.

 http://bobsiegal.net/index.html?menu.html&0 

its under Answers - God - Why Hell...

I pretty much agree with him on this. I embellish on it in an essay which is pretty disjointed and poorly written that I havent posted anywhere yet..

 


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JustAnotherBeliever

JustAnotherBeliever wrote:

much of what you say is true. It its impossible to follow the 1st two commandments, worshipping God the concept alone. We tend to worship (or ascribe value to other things). The knowledge that we cannot follow the law perfectly leads us to the one who is the fulfillment of the law, the messiah.

Except that my point is: I have known people who have been successful in following those two commandments. Why do you need more than the concept?

Quote:

Apparently angels will is different than mans will. Satan, being the most perfect creation, started to worhip himself. And when he fell he took 1/3 of heaven with him, supposedly, because he was in charge of 1/3 of heaven before he fell. So the ones who were under him went with him. Its not like 1/3 naturally freely chose to go with him.

But other than those, angels naturally tend to do Gods will. As we will, in heaven. Some say satan hates us because we will be over the angels in heaven because we have free will. So we could choose to serve God.

BZZZZZZZT!

Actually, according to the Bible, Satan has not, in fact, Fallen. There is no incidence of Satan failing to obey God's directives, even in the Christian text. Satan tests Job... at God's direction, and after asking God if he's sure Job's virtuous... or if his thankfulness for his blessings is mere avarice and brown-nosing. Satan tests Christ, but when directly commanded (presumably by the Divine Will in Christ) to knock it off, he does so. The term 'Satan', is itself not a name, but a job description. It's a position. Satan. Adversary. Prosecutor. The job, of course, is to test Man, to give obediance to God some value by presenting the alternative. After all, if there's no alternative, no other choice to make, what good is it to be good? The value of virtue, from a theological viewpoint (especially considering that pre-Christian Judaism had no afterlife, and certainly no 'hell' or eternal punishment) lies in the fact that it is a sacrifice of what you *could* be doing to please yourself, instead.

This is one of the really big issues I have with people who espouse the typical modern Christian mindset: You don't read the goddamn books.

Angels aren't accorded free will, according to J/C theology. And yet, there's the Fall. The Fall, btw, as described in The Book of Enoch, was led not by Satan, not by Lucifer (a name that didn't even come about until the latin translations of the Old Testament for Christian congregations), but by Azazel. It also had nothing to do with worshipping oneself. Azazel, and a number of other members of the angelic host, were tasked with overseeing Man directly on Earth. Existing within the physical realm for a time, they grew lustful of the daughters (and sons) of Man, and took some of them for their own, giving rise to the Nephilim, a race of giants. God saw what they had done, and forever cursed them to wander the earth as disembodied spirits of malice.

That's the story of the Fall. And it still runs into the problem of Free Will, because angels still don't get any, being created specifically as servitors. The only internally consistent conclusion is: God willed them to 'Fall' as yet another test/challenge for Man to overcome. The more you look for an internally consistent image of God in the J/C/I traditions, the more only three options appear:

A)God's a sadist.

B)God's insane.

C)Both.

"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid


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thats interesting...

I had never really seen the book of enoch before...its not really encouraged reading since it might not be inspired. It appears to have been written relatively late considering the subject matter  is suppose to take place way earlier. Since nobody here really believes in inspired scripture I guess would explain it as the earlier the date of writing to the time of the action, the more reliable to work is suppose to be. Thats partially why the book of judas and mary are not recognized as scripture. Although they are being latched onto lately by pseudo chrisitians more and more.

I always wonderend where they got the name azazel for denzel washington in fallen....thanks for the info..that was a good movie by the way...

I still think angels had some kind of will even though not "totally free" as we would call it.  But that may be just an anthropomorphic way to look at it. I dont presume to understand how an angels will works. Its just a mental model that we use. eg, I dont understand how God is both transcendant and immanent but apparently he is.


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JustAnotherBeliever

JustAnotherBeliever wrote:

paradoxical no matter what we try to understand about it. In a sense, God cannot have a will because he is unchanging as pure being. If he had desires they would imply he could be affected by them which would imply he can change. But he cannot. In another sense, the holy spirit can be thought of as interfacing with man's will to achieve God's ultimate will which was set in motion before the creation of the universe.  All of these are really mental models that try to explain how God works. Yet we can also think of God as the master of plan B. No matter what we do, God has a "personal will" for our life whenever we would like to follow it. And yet it is paradoxical because it impossible to deviate from God's ultimate will. (In a sense though that statement has no meaning (by way of practical application.))

 

 

 

Paradoxically you both contradicted yourself and said nothing meaningful in one paragraph....

Imagine the people who believe such things and who are not ashamed to ignore, totally, all the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible was written. And it is these ignorant people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most unthinking among us, who would make themselves the guides and leaders of us all; who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us; who would invade our schools and libraries and homes. I personally resent it bitterly.
Isaac Asimov


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JustAnotherBeliever wrote:I

JustAnotherBeliever wrote:

I had never really seen the book of enoch before...its not really encouraged reading since it might not be inspired. It appears to have been written relatively late considering the subject matter  is suppose to take place way earlier. Since nobody here really believes in inspired scripture I guess would explain it as the earlier the date of writing to the time of the action, the more reliable to work is suppose to be. Thats partially why the book of judas and mary are not recognized as scripture. Although they are being latched onto lately by pseudo chrisitians more and more.

I always wonderend where they got the name azazel for denzel washington in fallen....thanks for the info..that was a good movie by the way...

I still think angels had some kind of will even though not "totally free" as we would call it.  But that may be just an anthropomorphic way to look at it. I dont presume to understand how an angels will works. Its just a mental model that we use. eg, I dont understand how God is both transcendant and immanent but apparently he is.

There's nothing apparent about it.  It demands an explanation, doesn't it?  After all, its not as if God itself is telling you this, men are.  Men are telling you "oh, god is this and that, of course! It's apparent!".  Well, no it isn't.  There is a lot to question about the claims of Men.

 

For example, Men voted on the books that would become the Bible. They may not have known about the books of Mary and Judas (in fact, you can look up the history of how the Bible was made - the Council of Nicea.)

 

So, the next time some guy tells you to believe in "something else", think of this story:

 

Quote:

Dozens blinded in India looking for Virgin Mary

By Sarah Herman Last Updated: 2:00AM GMT 16/03/2008

At least 50 people have lost their sight after staring at the sun hoping to see an image of the Virgin Mary, according to reports.

 

A statue of the Virgin Mary. The Virgin Mary apparition was reported above a hotelier's home

Alarmed health authorities in India's Kottayam district have set up a sign dispelling rumours of a miraculous image in the sky and warning of the dangers of looking into direct sunlight.

Forty-eight cases of sight-loss, allegedly caused by photochemical burns on the retina, have been recorded at St Joseph's ENT and Eye hospital in the region since Friday.

Despite warnings, and the potentially harmful effects of their actions, believers are allegedly still flocking to a hotelier's house in Erumeli near where the divine image is said to have appeared.

"All our patients have similar history and symptoms… They have developed photochemical, not thermal, burns after continuously gazing at the sun," Dr Annamma James Isaac, the hospital's ophthalmologist said.

Even churches in the area have disowned the miracle after health officers and doctors approached the clergy.

The house where the miracle is said to have occurred has apparently been the subject of rumors for months.

The hotelier, who has since moved, had claimed that statues of the Virgin Mary in his house have been crying honey and bleeding oils and perfumes.

 

It's like me saying: "There's an image of God in the Sun and you can see it only if you really want to.  The people telling you there isn't are just liars trying to deceive you. etc. "  Sound familiar?  It should, that's what Xians have been telling people for centuries.

 

JAB, I like you.  I suspect you will be an agnostic in 6 months and an atheist in two years.

Imagine the people who believe such things and who are not ashamed to ignore, totally, all the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible was written. And it is these ignorant people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most unthinking among us, who would make themselves the guides and leaders of us all; who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us; who would invade our schools and libraries and homes. I personally resent it bitterly.
Isaac Asimov


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JustAnotherBeliever wrote:I

JustAnotherBeliever wrote:

I had never really seen the book of enoch before...its not really encouraged reading since it might not be inspired. It appears to have been written relatively late considering the subject matter  is suppose to take place way earlier. Since nobody here really believes in inspired scripture I guess would explain it as the earlier the date of writing to the time of the action, the more reliable to work is suppose to be. Thats partially why the book of judas and mary are not recognized as scripture. Although they are being latched onto lately by pseudo chrisitians more and more.

Except, of course, that it's referenced by the authors of the Epistles (including Peter and Jude, who may have been Jesus' and James' brother.), and so obviously forms part of the underpinning of Christian theology, and was held as valid by at least some sects of Jewish scholars.

Quote:

I always wonderend where they got the name azazel for denzel washington in fallen....thanks for the info..that was a good movie by the way...

Yes, yes it was. And actually pretty well in-line with the biblical style of 'demonic possession'. But then, you really can't go wrong w/Denzel.

Quote:

I still think angels had some kind of will even though not "totally free" as we would call it.  But that may be just an anthropomorphic way to look at it. I dont presume to understand how an angels will works. Its just a mental model that we use. eg, I dont understand how God is both transcendant and immanent but apparently he is.

Unless He isn't, at all. Eye-wink

"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid


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JAB:Hey! Just wondering if

JAB:

Hey! Just wondering if you've given any thought to my question in post #17. I'm curious what you think!

das

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dassercha wrote:NOTHING!!!!!

dassercha wrote:

NOTHING!!!!! Could oppose God's will!!!!! -- Bill Hicks on Satan.

Well, theists? I think a good question has been asked...

 

 

 


 


That's uh... That's pretty easily answered by the theist.

"Well, it was part of God's plan for him to do that."
So it's not against God's will, it's against his pretended will.

BUT, your question, or should I say, your "point" does destroy those who both believe God is battling the devil and believe nothing can oppose God.  But they have to strictly believe the devil is a threat and enemy of God, and not just a tool for his plan.

It's all just stupid fairy tale stuff anyways.  It'll contradict and they'll make something up to fix it, and so on and so on...
It's pointless really.

All you need to do is ask them to prove God.  Then they can't, and you say, "Then if you believe, then you are by definition irrational."  And explain to them how that's a bad thing.  All that Bible crap is just their embarrasing sorry-ass-shit.


JustAnotherBeliever
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answering post #17

 

Hoping you didn't glaze over theotherguy post #6. The OT is full of God killing, destroying, especially women & innocent children; changing his mind & on and on, etc. Can you say, "primitive sheepherders vying for limited resources, projecting much"?

I agree it is very primitive and the writing reflects the times. I dont have to take a "literal" interpretation to appreciate the teachings. I'd be ok if it was literal but it shouldnt have to be. They were primitive sheepherders!

Intersexed: how can this be a consequence of the Fall? You have no freewill to choose your orientation in this case. Disease and maladies of all sort can exist to test your faith, sure, but remember Yahweh created adam & eve, not adam & steve. This phenomenon simply cannot exist in your paradigm as I see it. Do you?

Why the fall effects us has several different interpretations. It doesnt seem fair but metaphorically if I were in the garden I would have eventually done the same things. To answer the overarching question, the world is not heaven and never will be until there is a total makeover.  Everything that is screwed up he will eventually be made right. Even though we will advance in technology, we will be the same people, same problems. (unless we change our genes somehow) but we dont choose how we are born....thats true.

 

 


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JustAnotherBeliever

JustAnotherBeliever wrote:

 

Hoping you didn't glaze over theotherguy post #6. The OT is full of God killing, destroying, especially women & innocent children; changing his mind & on and on, etc. Can you say, "primitive sheepherders vying for limited resources, projecting much"?

I agree it is very primitive and the writing reflects the times. I dont have to take a "literal" interpretation to appreciate the teachings. I'd be ok if it was literal but it shouldnt have to be. They were primitive sheepherders!

Intersexed: how can this be a consequence of the Fall? You have no freewill to choose your orientation in this case. Disease and maladies of all sort can exist to test your faith, sure, but remember Yahweh created adam & eve, not adam & steve. This phenomenon simply cannot exist in your paradigm as I see it. Do you?

Why the fall effects us has several different interpretations. It doesnt seem fair but metaphorically if I were in the garden I would have eventually done the same things. To answer the overarching question, the world is not heaven and never will be until there is a total makeover.  Everything that is screwed up he will eventually be made right. Even though we will advance in technology, we will be the same people, same problems. (unless we change our genes somehow) but we dont choose how we are born....thats true.

 

Ok, so then what do you do if you have BOTH genitalia and want to be a good Christian? How do you decide what is to be your dominant sex all things being equal? What if that is not God's will?

EDUCATION! EDUCATION! EDUCATION!


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JustAnotherBeliever

JustAnotherBeliever wrote:

The best, but not satisfactory, explanation I can give is that God doesnt not desire anything or need anything...he is totally self sufficient and complete...pure being..."I am who I am."

 But from what we try to understand from scripture, the holy spirit "enjoys" our worship.

And likes to have people suffer for eternity if they don't worship It?

 

That sounds appalling.  It is not worthy of worship.

 

edit: btw, what do you take to be the lesson of this passage from "scripture"?

 

Deuteronomy 13:6-18 (New King James Version)

 

6 “If your brother, the son of your mother, your son or your daughter, the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, secretly entices you, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, neither you nor your fathers, 7 of the gods of the people which are all around you, near to you or far off from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth, 8 you shall not consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him or conceal him; 9 but you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. 10 And you shall stone him with stones until he dies, because he sought to entice you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. 11 So all Israel shall hear and fear, and not again do such wickedness as this among you.
12 “If you hear someone in one of your cities, which the LORD your God gives you to dwell in, saying, 13 ‘Corrupt men have gone out from among you and enticed the inhabitants of their city, saying, “Let us go and serve other gods”’—which you have not known— 14 then you shall inquire, search out, and ask diligently. And if it is indeed true and certain that such an abomination was committed among you, 15 you shall surely strike the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, utterly destroying it, all that is in it and its livestock—with the edge of the sword. 16 And you shall gather all its plunder into the middle of the street, and completely burn with fire the city and all its plunder, for the LORD your God. It shall be a heap forever; it shall not be built again. 17 So none of the accursed things shall remain in your hand, that the LORD may turn from the fierceness of His anger and show you mercy, have compassion on you and multiply you, just as He swore to your fathers, 18 because you have listened to the voice of the LORD your God, to keep all His commandments which I command you today, to do what is right in the eyes of the LORD your God.

 

 

See:  HIS commandments - your Gods.  That is what is RIGHT in the eyes of YOUR lord.

 

Don't you find this despicable?

Imagine the people who believe such things and who are not ashamed to ignore, totally, all the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible was written. And it is these ignorant people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most unthinking among us, who would make themselves the guides and leaders of us all; who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us; who would invade our schools and libraries and homes. I personally resent it bitterly.
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those are tough questions

Ok, so then what do you do if you have BOTH genitalia and want to be a good Christian? How do you decide what is to be your dominant sex all things being equal? What if that is not God's will?

I think whatever you decide, God is big enough to work with it and support your decision. God's will is way bigger than any one choice even though that is a big choice.

And likes to have people suffer for eternity if they don't worship It?

No. If God could have everyone in heaven and still let us have free will, he would do it.

btw, what do you take to be the lesson of this passage from "scripture"?

God must answer to all wrongdoing eventually.  It seems like a lot of overkill to us. But I dont think we should get speeding tickets even. That seems like overkill too. I much prefer to always be let off the hook for whatever I do wrong. So I'm probably not the best one to dispense justice.  If they didnt give out tickets we'd be like the autobahn. It'd be pretty cool unless I crashed and killed myself. Then my family would be petitioning speed laws again. At least thats the lesson to me.

 

 

 

 


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"God is Great / God is NOT

"God is Great / God is NOT Great" ..... Welcome to the problem of babel , linguistics , communication ...... G A W E D , the F O R C E

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This isn't about not getting

This isn't about not getting speeding tickets "God's justice" from the Buybull makes getting the death penalty for tearing a tag off the pillow look rational. Eternal torture for minor offenses isn't just wrong by our analysis - it's wrong by any sane analysis.

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MattShizzle wrote:This isn't

MattShizzle wrote:

This isn't about not getting speeding tickets "God's justice" from the Buybull makes getting the death penalty for tearing a tag off the pillow look rational. Eternal torture for minor offenses isn't just wrong by our analysis - it's wrong by any sane analysis.

Aahh, but Matt, you miss the point: There *are* no minor offenses. There is, indeed, only one offense: Disobedience before God.

And if you defy His Bigness, you must pay, for all time.

 

 

 

 

or at least, for a thousand years, as 'the burning pit' in Revelations was originally termed 'Gehenna', and 'the fire that burns for an Age'.

"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid


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So do you realize the significance of No Angels Falling?

JustAnotherBeliever wrote:

Apparently angels will is different than mans will. Satan, being the most perfect creation, started to worhip himself. And when he fell he took 1/3 of heaven with him, supposedly, because he was in charge of 1/3 of heaven before he fell. So the ones who were under him went with him. Its not like 1/3 naturally freely chose to go with him.

But other than those, angels naturally tend to do Gods will. As we will, in heaven. Some say satan hates us because we will be over the angels in heaven because we have free will. So we could choose to serve God.

Ironically, to follow someone is to do as they do. So if we follow satan, we do as he does and worship ourselves. If we follow Jesus we do as he does and worship God. 

BMcD made a very good point when he told you there is no instance of Satan not following God's orders. There is in fact nothing in the Bible to support a war in Heaven and 1/3 of the Angels under Satan rebeling, it's simply not there. As BMcD told you Enoch has the story of Azazel and the other angels who were watchers that took human women for wives and introduced many things to man that were supposedly secret. It is basically an extension of the few verses of Genesis 6. The book of Enoch was well known in 1st century Judea. Revelation contains much that has it's basis from Enoch. Orthodox Judaism did not include it as canon in the Hebrew Bible because they likely knew it dates to around the time of the Macabees.

However Christians have a severe problem in the fable they tell of Satan's fall as you have no basis at all for this belief. It is not in the Hebrew Bible you call the Old Testament at all. That being the case it suggests a large portion of what you have been taught has basis in pure legend that doesn't even have a figurative story in your Bible. Care to explain why you accept the rest of the myths and probable fiction in light of this?

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JAB:On the intersexed,

JAB:

On the intersexed, you're missing the point. A loving god with such stringent rules on sexuality would not, could not  create such  a phenomenon unless he's a helluva a trickster!!! Think about it! Again, this is not a freewill issue. Disease, mutations that cause suffering and malaise of all sorts--SURE! Not this though--none of that applies here.

 

EDUCATION! EDUCATION! EDUCATION!


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Theist philosophy:Whatever

Theist philosophy:

Whatever science does not explain is religion.

Whatever religion does not explain is faith.

 

No point in having a discussion with this mindset.

 

 

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


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I thought I posted this yesterday...

but it disappeared into the ether...

And likes to have people suffer for eternity if they don't worship It?

No. If God could have everyone in heaven and still let people have free will, he would do it.

btw, what do you take to be the lesson of this passage from "scripture"?

God has to eventually address all wrongdoing and make it right. I prefer myself to be let off the hook for everything I do wrong. I'm not one to want to dispense out justice. I dont even like speeding tickets. If we didnt have them we would all go fast like the autobahn. It would be great unless I crashed and died in a wreck. Then my family would petition to have speed laws put back in place. God "sees" long term. We see short term. At least, thats the lesson to me.

 

 

 

 

 


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JustAnotherBeliever

JustAnotherBeliever wrote:

 I appreciate your responses so far!

Thanks!

Few things here:

How stupid was Satan knowing he couldn't win in the end?

This is one of the great conundrums. Satan knows he's going to "lose". Why does he bother? It could be that he views any small win at all as a win. If he can drag as many as possible with him, then he wins. It's kind of a win-win situation. No matter he has enormous power now and he will be "in charge" of hell perhaps in the future. Satan has the best of jobs. All he has to do is give us what we want. We tempt ourselves by our own desires, so we have ourselves to blame mostly. Technically, we cannot blame him on judgment day.

Do you believe Satan has the power to create?

I dont think satan can create. He may be able to take the form of people as apparently angels can. I dont know why he would. He is the master overseer. Satan does not need to trifle with most of us who are not interfering in any of his master plans.

Which leads to: how do you explain the hermaphadites/intersexed phenomenon?

Any birth defect can be thought of as not as God would have intended the world to be if there was no sin. I don't know what exactly happened during the fall. I'm not saying the adam and eve story actually happened that way but it is at least a metaphor for the way we are, a fallen race. God allows the fall but has a plan to redeem mankind. He apparently allows all this because for us to have free will is of utmost important. Yet free will is still paradoxical.

Why do you think Yahweh created us biologically to share so many features and characteristics as other mammals? Is he lazy?

Some believe that process of evolution is the only way to get mankind where we are today so the planet can have the correct biomass for all ecosystems to exist.  Technically we can picture adam being created from dust, but taking millions of years to do so, and through natural processes. I picture getting it all to work together as being a major pain in the ass for God. But thats just me.

Why would this god, so full of love say, if it is not reciprocated, you will burn in eternal hellfire? Imagine saying this to a child of yours.

This is one of the toughest questions I still struggle with. I have written some random thoughts down that I guess I could post somewhere but its kind of long. In short, I think we dont so much have a problem with the justice of God as much as it being eternal...especially eternal torment which doesnt sound too fair.  I don't think we get thrown into hell kicking and screaming. Hell is a place we choose to go because we would rather be there than being somewhere where we have to serve God 24/7.  I don't know why any of us choose the way we do.  But God will absolutely not force us to serve him for all eternity.

I can think of more, but that should be a start. Thanks in advance! Smiling

Hope I didnt mess up the text in this post...we'll see..I was hesitant to use the quotes function...

 

 

You realize the reason that these questions are conundrums and difficult to answer is because you are trying to fit it into a larger mythology.

 

There are answers to all those questions and more. Science has more than adequately answered them.  You are still playing with questions about the color of Santa's gloves (red or green?), while other people have moved on and started curing disease and actually helping people - not prayer for their own soul to be saved.....

Imagine the people who believe such things and who are not ashamed to ignore, totally, all the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible was written. And it is these ignorant people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most unthinking among us, who would make themselves the guides and leaders of us all; who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us; who would invade our schools and libraries and homes. I personally resent it bitterly.
Isaac Asimov


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JustAnotherBeliever

JustAnotherBeliever wrote:

but it disappeared into the ether...

And likes to have people suffer for eternity if they don't worship It?

No. If God could have everyone in heaven and still let people have free will, he would do it.

btw, what do you take to be the lesson of this passage from "scripture"?

God has to eventually address all wrongdoing and make it right. I prefer myself to be let off the hook for everything I do wrong. I'm not one to want to dispense out justice. I dont even like speeding tickets. If we didnt have them we would all go fast like the autobahn. It would be great unless I crashed and died in a wreck. Then my family would petition to have speed laws put back in place. God "sees" long term. We see short term. At least, thats the lesson to me.

 

 

 

 

 

 

how do you know this?

 

I bet you are just making it up. "That's the lesson for me" - Wow, how incredibly subjective of you!

 

 

Imagine the people who believe such things and who are not ashamed to ignore, totally, all the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible was written. And it is these ignorant people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most unthinking among us, who would make themselves the guides and leaders of us all; who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us; who would invade our schools and libraries and homes. I personally resent it bitterly.
Isaac Asimov