the ten commandments

pm9347
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the ten commandments

hello everybody, i thought i hop on in to deliver some really good rules to live by ,

I am the Lord your God    
You shall have no other gods before me  
You shall not make for yourself an idol  
You shall not make wrongful use of the name of your God    
Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy    
Honor your father and mother    
You shall not murder    
You shall not commit adultery    
You shall not steal    
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor    
You shall not covet your neighbor's house    
You shall not covet your neighbor's wife

 

really sorry for some of my text im a little new at this, ...pat


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the ten commandants that i

the ten commandants that i posted , and the indivual ones that people made up , all seem to follow a common thread, and that is to use these rules to live with peace to your fellow man / woman (trying to be pc)  im not a scholar, i dont pretend to have amassed massive knowledge and spew it out to come up with the all in one stumper that can save all athiest everywhere. im a simple, basic man, who came to this site for two reasons 1. to learn why athiest dont believe when the answer seems so avabile  2. to deliver the word of god to those who wont listen. if anyone has some  websites to recommend to learn more on both sides of the fence im all ears, to the new guy welcome with the first post , hi back and glad you stopped by, ill continue to validate my points with the tools i currently have with me until more arrive,


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KSMB wrote:pm9347

KSMB wrote:

pm9347 wrote:

hello everybody, i thought i hop on in to deliver some really good rules to live by ,

I am the Lord your God    
You shall have no other gods before me  
You shall not make for yourself an idol  
You shall not make wrongful use of the name of your God    
Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy    
Honor your father and mother    
You shall not murder    
You shall not commit adultery    
You shall not steal    
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor    
You shall not covet your neighbor's house    
You shall not covet your neighbor's wife

You seem blissfully unaware of the actual ten commandments. These are the inferior commandments from Exodus 20. Moses gets angry at the israelites for worshiping a gold calf and smashes the stone tablets those were on. Great quality of tablets from god, and Moses needs anger management classes. Anyway, in Exodus 34, Moses gets a new pair of tablets with clearly superior commandments, billed as "the words that were on the first" (Exodus 34:1). Enjoy your new commandments to live by pm9347. You don't even have to thank me for bringing this to your attention.


1. Thou shalt worship no other god (For the Lord is a jealous god). (this is a particularly nasty version. See Exodus 34:12-16 for a gruesome display of divine intolerance)

2. Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.

3. The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep in the month when the ear is on the corn.

4. All the first-born are mine.

5. Six days shalt thou work, but on the seventh thou shalt rest.

6. Thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, even of the first fruits of the wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.

7. Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leavened bread.

8. The fat of my feast shall not remain all night until the morning.

9. The first of the first fruits of thy ground thou shalt bring unto the house of the Lord thy God.

10. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in its mother's milk.

could you tell me the version or name of the text you got that from??.......


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pm9347 wrote:KSMB

pm9347 wrote:

KSMB wrote:

pm9347 wrote:

hello everybody, i thought i hop on in to deliver some really good rules to live by ,

I am the Lord your God    
You shall have no other gods before me  
You shall not make for yourself an idol  
You shall not make wrongful use of the name of your God    
Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy    
Honor your father and mother    
You shall not murder    
You shall not commit adultery    
You shall not steal    
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor    
You shall not covet your neighbor's house    
You shall not covet your neighbor's wife

You seem blissfully unaware of the actual ten commandments. These are the inferior commandments from Exodus 20. Moses gets angry at the israelites for worshiping a gold calf and smashes the stone tablets those were on. Great quality of tablets from god, and Moses needs anger management classes. Anyway, in Exodus 34, Moses gets a new pair of tablets with clearly superior commandments, billed as "the words that were on the first" (Exodus 34:1). Enjoy your new commandments to live by pm9347. You don't even have to thank me for bringing this to your attention.


1. Thou shalt worship no other god (For the Lord is a jealous god). (this is a particularly nasty version. See Exodus 34:12-16 for a gruesome display of divine intolerance)

2. Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.

3. The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep in the month when the ear is on the corn.

4. All the first-born are mine.

5. Six days shalt thou work, but on the seventh thou shalt rest.

6. Thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, even of the first fruits of the wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.

7. Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leavened bread.

8. The fat of my feast shall not remain all night until the morning.

9. The first of the first fruits of thy ground thou shalt bring unto the house of the Lord thy God.

10. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in its mother's milk.

could you tell me the version or name of the text you got that from??.......

 

Did you read? He said where - Exodus 34:1

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pm9347 wrote:could you tell

pm9347 wrote:

could you tell me the version or name of the text you got that from??.......

I already said that! Exodus 34, read the whole thing, I did. The 1st commandment listed is abbreviated from the nastyness of Exodus 34:12-16. The archaic English indicates KJV...


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pm9347 wrote:the ten

pm9347 wrote:

the ten commandants that i posted , and the indivual ones that people made up , all seem to follow a common thread, and that is to use these rules to live with peace to your fellow man / woman (trying to be pc)  im not a scholar, i dont pretend to have amassed massive knowledge and spew it out to come up with the all in one stumper that can save all athiest everywhere. im a simple, basic man, who came to this site for two reasons 1. to learn why athiest dont believe when the answer seems so avabile  2. to deliver the word of god to those who wont listen. if anyone has some  websites to recommend to learn more on both sides of the fence im all ears, to the new guy welcome with the first post , hi back and glad you stopped by, ill continue to validate my points with the tools i currently have with me until more arrive,

Here is the reason I do no to believe, I never believed, I have been a life long atheist, why you ask? simple, after having many friends of many different religions, jewish, christians, hindus, buddhist (and I was like 8 at this time) I asked, why so many gods and why has god never shown himself/herself/themselves to us like it/they did in ancient history. Why would any of them be real, why does all the evidence show a universe far older than the 6000 years that christians claim, and some jews, yet the hindus claim over a few billion years old (they are far closer than the christians). Yet we all have the same value system when it comes to our own society, no stealing, lying, killing, unless of course it is some one of a different religion/tribe/society? because it can all be explained naturally without the need of a god. You can try to spread the word, but you better be able to defend them, even a simple man better understand what he is talking about otherwise he should keep his mouth shut, ignorance is not something you should be proud of and display. Most things can be explained, and even the things that can't, shouldn't be automatically an evidnece for the supernatural, for all the supernatural is something unexplained. With that said, lightening was thought to be due to a god, chrisitan, jewish, thor, the thunder bird, etc, etc, etc, yet later it was explained to be a natural phenomena. So many ancient superstitions that have been explained naturally, all without the need for a god. I have no need for a god, I have faced death, and never requested or wanted a god, I have seen loved ones sick and never prayed to a god, I have been in harms way and never looked for a god. I know when I die I will die, no heaven no hell. I simply die, and my offsprings live on, and I lived through them. I do not fear death, nor do I look forward to it either, I enjoy my life, my family and my friends, I live by the law of the land, and all of this no need for a god.

If you need a god, that's fine, but trying to make others believe in your delusion, well that's a wee bit much really. It's offensive (to me personally) since I am not asking you to stop believing, and as such you should have enough respect not to try to convert, however I do understand your religion is only good in numbers (need that 10 percent donation). The fact that god doens't answer the prayers of millions of suffering people (think about the 1 million ethopian christians that died of starvation in the 80's I guess they didn't pray hard enough, or with enough faith maybe?) and that one preson that does get answered is evidence of his power (yeah great power 1 in a million get answered, yeah lets not use that power) and that others of different religions pray and have pretty much the same outcome, makes me it obvious that prayer is ineffective. With that said, pray to a sock, or some other object, in the end the result is the same, one of three things will happen, you will get it, you get it later or you don't get it at all.

Hence the reason I don't believe, even through suffering, pain and death, is that it can all be explained, via a natural explaination, and even if there isn't an answer now, the answer will be found later, and chances are (since so far it has been that way) it will be a natural explanation. Because once the supernatural can be explained, it becomes natural, the super part is gone. That's it for me, have a good day.


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PM,Again you are missing the

PM,

Again you are missing the point.

Not everyone believes in your god. On top of that, many of the "rules" you say are universal, by nature cause division(because of the sectarian book you pull them from), even amongst people of the same label because not everyone interprets their god the same way.

On top of that people outside your label, and people with no religion can do decent things and are capable of not harming others and do not assign those "NO DUH" statements to your god.

We have government laws written by humans that are universal. That is why we can arrest a Muslim, Jew or atheist for murder. That is why we can arrest an Christian or Buddhist for theft. Because WE, dispite our differances, CAN agree that there are things in society we don't want happening.

You merely have it stuck in your head that your god is the author of morality. We don't care. We do care that people who believe in your god want to gang tag government property with their sectarian logo and claime that their god owns our government.

Why not just obey the laws on the books? Why do you need a religious symbol on government property? Are there a lack of churches where you live?

"Don't steal", "Don't murder", are evolutionary traits that have nothing to do with magical bearded man in the sky. People of all labels and long before the Hebrews had laws against those sorts of things. Neither Christians or Jews invented morality.

I am quite sure if you got caught stealing from your neighbor in ancient Egypt, you would be punished, but that did not mean Ra, the sun god was real or that Ra told the Egyptians not to steal.

 

You don't need a god to be good, you just think you do.

 

 

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pm9347 wrote:1. to learn why

pm9347 wrote:
1. to learn why athiest dont believe when the answer seems so avabile
You should ask yourself the question: why do I believe?  Answer with honesty and see if it's anything other than fear, blind faith and\or tradition.

 

As for why I don't believe: 1. There is no evidence supporting the existence of any divine deity I've ever heard of.  2. There is no need for any divine deity I've ever heard of.  3.  I've seen a lot of harm done by irrational beliefs, especially in divine deities we neither need nor have evidence for.

"I've yet to witness circumstance successfully manipulated through the babbling of ritualistic nonsense to an imaginary deity." -- me (josh)

If god can do anything, can he make a hot dog so big even he can't eat all of it?


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pm9347 wrote:1. to learn why

pm9347 wrote:

1. to learn why athiest dont believe when the answer seems so avabile 

Ok, Kingdo...I mean pm9347, I'll tell you what the answer is that you are seeking.

I was raised in a Southern Baptist Church.  I went every Sunday morning, evening, and Wednesday evening.  And I truly believed.  I read and studied the bible, went to summer bible camp, etc., etc.  I grew up believing in the bible.  Then, in my 20's I got into an argument over whether salvation could be lost or not.  Well if you just check out the bible it has verses that hint at opposing views.  So I put my bible down and started to think critically about the bible and what really made sense.

And that's all it takes from someone to become atheist.  To put your bible down and think on your religion with intellectual honesty.

So there is your answer to No. 1.  People that actually think about what the bible says instead of just accepting it blindly.

pm9347 wrote:

2. to deliver the word of god to those who wont listen.

We've already heard that crap.  A thousand times.  And we did listen.  That's why we don't believe it.  We listened very carefully.

"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci


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the second set

pm9347 wrote:

KSMB wrote:

pm9347 wrote:

hello everybody, i thought i hop on in to deliver some really good rules to live by ,

I am the Lord your God    
You shall have no other gods before me  
You shall not make for yourself an idol  
You shall not make wrongful use of the name of your God    
Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy    
Honor your father and mother    
You shall not murder    
You shall not commit adultery    
You shall not steal    
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor    
You shall not covet your neighbor's house    
You shall not covet your neighbor's wife

You seem blissfully unaware of the actual ten commandments. These are the inferior commandments from Exodus 20. Moses gets angry at the israelites for worshiping a gold calf and smashes the stone tablets those were on. Great quality of tablets from god, and Moses needs anger management classes. Anyway, in Exodus 34, Moses gets a new pair of tablets with clearly superior commandments, billed as "the words that were on the first" (Exodus 34:1). Enjoy your new commandments to live by pm9347. You don't even have to thank me for bringing this to your attention.


1. Thou shalt worship no other god (For the Lord is a jealous god). (this is a particularly nasty version. See Exodus 34:12-16 for a gruesome display of divine intolerance)

2. Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.

3. The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep in the month when the ear is on the corn.

4. All the first-born are mine.

5. Six days shalt thou work, but on the seventh thou shalt rest.

6. Thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, even of the first fruits of the wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.

7. Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leavened bread.

8. The fat of my feast shall not remain all night until the morning.

9. The first of the first fruits of thy ground thou shalt bring unto the house of the Lord thy God.

10. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in its mother's milk.

could you tell me the version or name of the text you got that from??.......

i read the second set of commandants using differernt versions for example kjv, niv, etc. and was not aware that a 2nd set existed , but i see some similarites in both sets and differences , first set seems directed to all, and second set  seems directed to israel  itself , but good stuff , thanks for the info , it does strengthen ones faith


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the second set

double post


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pm9347 wrote:i read the

pm9347 wrote:

i read the second set of commandants using differernt versions for example kjv, niv, etc. and was not aware that a 2nd set existed , but i see some similarites in both sets and differences , first set seems directed to all, and second set  seems directed to israel  itself , but good stuff , thanks for the info , it does strengthen ones faith

You would say anything strengthens your faith wouldn't you

I mean,

Quote:
3. The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep in the month when the ear is on the corn.

What the hell?

Quote:
4. All the first-born are mine.

Wow that's seems friendly.

Quote:
8. The fat of my feast shall not remain all night until the morning.

What does any of this even mean?!

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

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This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.

Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.


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hazindu wrote:pm9347

hazindu wrote:

pm9347 wrote:
1. to learn why athiest dont believe when the answer seems so avabile
You should ask yourself the question: why do I believe?  Answer with honesty and see if it's anything other than fear, blind faith and\or tradition.

 

As for why I don't believe: 1. There is no evidence supporting the existence of any divine deity I've ever heard of.  2. There is no need for any divine deity I've ever heard of.  3.  I've seen a lot of harm done by irrational beliefs, especially in divine deities we neither need nor have evidence for.

i feel that there are natual reasons to explain gods existence look around you and you can see it .


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Look around you and you will

Look around you and you will see Allah, I just know it. Why can't you see it?

Are you getting it yet?

Look at the following pattern:

"Allah did it"

"God did it"

"Yahwey did it"

"Vishnu did it"

 Those all have two things in common.

1. They are all claims

2. None have any evidence to back them up.

You are mistaking your emotional reaction to nature as being justification for believing magical claims. I see "awe" in nature, but I don't assign it to a magical being.

For all that "awe" you see there is tons of destruction too. Tsunamis, cancer, ecoli, anthrax, black holes, meteors. If life is so "pretty" all the time that it has to be caused by a being, then why cant you go into space without a space suit?

Again, you merely like what you believe and are simply falling for the emotional trap you have been sold.

When I look at trees I don't see Jesus anymore than you see Osirus as being the cause. I see DNA and evolution. No magical fictional being  needed to be impressed with nature.


 

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pm9347 wrote:hazindu

pm9347 wrote:

hazindu wrote:

pm9347 wrote:
1. to learn why athiest dont believe when the answer seems so avabile
You should ask yourself the question: why do I believe?  Answer with honesty and see if it's anything other than fear, blind faith and\or tradition.

 

As for why I don't believe: 1. There is no evidence supporting the existence of any divine deity I've ever heard of.  2. There is no need for any divine deity I've ever heard of.  3.  I've seen a lot of harm done by irrational beliefs, especially in divine deities we neither need nor have evidence for.

i feel that there are natual reasons to explain gods existence look around you and you can see it .

Yep - Just look around you.

Floods, tsunamis, tornadoes (just got an all clear minutes ago - storm tracked south), hurricanes, earthquakes, wars about whose god is better, wildfires caused by lightning.

That son of a bitch Yahweh is all over the place.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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pm9347 wrote:i feel that

pm9347 wrote:

i feel that there are natual reasons to explain gods existence look around you and you can see it .

Could you please be more specific?  I look around all the time, and stand in awe of nature, but I've yet to see anything that couldn't of come naturally from an universe of black holes and hydrogen.  btw, emotional appeals and appeals to ignorance do not constitute evidence.

"I've yet to witness circumstance successfully manipulated through the babbling of ritualistic nonsense to an imaginary deity." -- me (josh)

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don't have to anwser!

pm9347 wrote:

the ten commandants that i posted , and the indivual ones that people made up , all seem to follow a common thread, and that is to use these rules to live with peace to your fellow man / woman (trying to be pc)  im not a scholar, i dont pretend to have amassed massive knowledge and spew it out to come up with the all in one stumper that can save all athiest everywhere. im a simple, basic man, who came to this site for two reasons 1. to learn why athiest dont believe when the answer seems so avabile  2. to deliver the word of god to those who wont listen. if anyone has some  websites to recommend to learn more on both sides of the fence im all ears, to the new guy welcome with the first post , hi back and glad you stopped by, ill continue to validate my points with the tools i currently have with me until more arrive,

I find it a hell of a lot easier not to believe in god or his word, that way i don't have to answer to the most egotistical being that ever existed and his clergy cronies, they're wicked.

"The longer you live the higher you fly,
the smiles you'll give and the tears you'll cry,
all you touch and all you see,
is all your life will ever be."
-Pink Floyd, The Dark Side of the Moon.


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pm9347 wrote:the ten

pm9347 wrote:
the ten commandants that i posted , and the indivual ones that people made up , all seem to follow a common thread, and that is to use these rules to live with peace to your fellow man / woman (trying to be pc)  im not a scholar

They're the same rules that make societies work that haven't heard of the abrahamic god too.  Why would that be?  Maybe because they're the best rules and ideas to follow for a functioning society?  You're just trying to steal them away and falsly claim them as being your sugar daddy in the sky's creation.  The ten commandments are no better than any other set of rules.  In fact, they're worse.  They fail on so many levels.  They miss a lot of things out, and the only form of punishment for 7 of them is death.  No ifs, no buts, no leniancy what so ever.

pm9347 wrote:
i read the second set of commandants using differernt versions for example kjv, niv, etc. and was not aware that a 2nd set existed , but i see some similarites in both sets and differences , first set seems directed to all, and second set  seems directed to israel  itself , but good stuff , thanks for the info , it does strengthen ones faith

Why am I not surprised?  Try reading the bible for yourself rather than just having it cherry picked on your behalf by your pastor.  You'll learn a lot.


 

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pm9347 wrote:Honor your

pm9347 wrote:

Honor your father and mother

Jesus violates this commandment:

 

o "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple" (Luke 14:26).
o "I am come to set man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household" (Matt. 10:35-36).
o "Woman, what have I to do with thee?" (To his mother) (John 2:4).

 

People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.


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pm9347 wrote:You shall not

pm9347 wrote:


You shall not bear false witness

Jesus lied:

 

John 7:8-10, "Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet unto this feast: for my time is not yet full come. When he had said these words unto them, he abode still in Galilee. But when his brethren were gone up, then went he also up unto the feast, not openly, but as it were in secret." Jesus broke his promise [word] by going up secretly after saying he wouldn't.

 

Quote:
Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy    

Jesus worked on the Sabbath day:

"And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done those things on the sabbath day. But Jesus answered them, 'My Father worketh hitherto, and I work'. Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he had not only broken the sabbath...."(John 5:16-18 )

 

Jesus broke two commandments at once by stealing and breaking the sabbath:


"And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn." (Mark 2:23)

 

Jesus encouraged stealing: 


 And when they drew nigh unto Jerusalem, and were come to Bethphage, unto the mount of Olives, then sent Jesus two disciples, saying unto them, 'Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an ass tied, and a colt with her: loose them, and bring them unto me'." (Matthew 21).

 

Quote:
You shall not commit adultery


   god condones and orders adultry:


"But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves" (Num. 31:18)


"Go take unto thee a wife of whoredoms, and children of whoredoms, for the land hath committed great whoredom departing from the Lord." (Hosea 1:2)


"This is what the Lord says: 'Out of your own household I am going to bring calamity upon you. Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight. You did it in secret, but I will do this thing in broad daylight before all Israel" (2 Sam. 12:11-12).

 

People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.


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pm9347 wrote:You shall not

pm9347 wrote:

You shall not steal   

god orders stealing:

"...and ye shall spoil the Egyptians" (Ex. 3:22).

"...and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord God" (Ezek. 39:10).

"As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies" (Deut. 20:14).

 

People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.


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have to go to work

i keep checking the boards and im reading the respones, however i have to go to work in the morning and  i work a 12 hour day , ill be on again tommorow, late but ill be here, ive read the last posts and i will respond to them tommorow...


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pm9347 wrote:the ten

pm9347 wrote:

the ten commandants that i posted , and the indivual ones that people made up , all seem to follow a common thread, and that is to use these rules to live with peace to your fellow man / woman (trying to be pc)

pm9347 the common thread might have something to do with the fact that it is what you requested in your original challenge:

pm9347 wrote:

...come up with 10 rules that all humanity should live by so that we can get all get along...

I'm sure that the rules made up by individual posters would just as surely have possessed the common thread of being ten guidelines for a great defensive chess strategy if you had requested it, too. Anyhow, sorry but your observation is valueless.

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Hm.Y'know, the original 10

Hm.

Y'know, the original 10 commandments don't really make any provisions against rape. That's rather interesting.

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Kevin R Brown

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Hm.

Y'know, the original 10 commandments don't really make any provisions against rape. That's rather interesting.

That's most likely because most of the ten commandments are vague or general, while rape has very specific rules of conduct.  Check out Deuteronomy 22:28.  A passage like that in the middle of the list would just kill the flow of things.

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A more general point is that

A more general point is that the commandments say nothing about any physical abuse or injury short of killing, thus allowing rape and torture and generally beating someone up, it's apparently ok as long as they don't actually die.

To allow this sort of thing, while including trivial 'thought crimes' like coveting your neighbour's wife, man-servants, cattle, all treated as property, shows a totally distorted view of the relative seriousness of various actions. Including what by any contemporary standard are not really 'sins'. while not covering serious abuses on other people such as rape and torture, makes the whole idea of treating this list as some standard of behaviour totally absurd, and shows severe lack of moral understanding.

Any religion putting this list up forfeits any claim to moral authority. 

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George Carlin's recommendation

Dryndal wrote:

 

Anyway. I would like to recommend a film on this subject. Actually it's a part of a comedy show (so it's the same genre basicly Sticking out tongue)... Here's the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyWEBbFwU1o&feature=related

 

Thats just how i feel about this issue...

 

Greetz...

Welcome.

I agree with you, George Carlin covered it in this routine. All we need is 3 commandments.

1-Thou shall always be honest & faithful to the provider of thy nookie

2-Thou shall try really hard to not kill anyone unless they pray to a different invisible man than you do.

3-Thou shall keep thy religion to thyself.

 

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


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im back

well ive been working , and caught up on sleep, (cant ever get enough)so back to debate , the ten commandants  both sets cover gen rules to live by to ensure health and community in a time when none of that existed, for those of you that say it doesnt cover  other crimes read the rest of the old testament to find rules on living like numbers , dueotrony, etc, these rules show help creat coexistence, jesus goes on in the new testament and expands on these rules because of hundredes of years tradition, was making us miss the point,


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ok , some natural proof of

ok , some natural proof of god exsitence , i was going to refer all to st. thomas aquinas 5 rational proofs of gods existence but i have to be honest , it gave me a headache, im new to the idea of logic , but if your still interested , sit down with a bowl scoops and some salsa , and read on , well onto it then , im sure some of you might have heard this already, but our enviroment shows an intelligence designed it , we all live in a very narrow 50 mile wide area of habitat , if you go higher then 50 miles you will freeze, the earth sits at  exactly the right distance from the sun to warm us, the size of the earth is perfect allowing gravity to hold mostly nitrogen and oxygen and us for that matter here , our planet is comprised mostly of salt water, yet we drink fresh water as the condensation cycle causes water for us to drink,finally the earth sits at an angle so its heated and cooled at the right time all year. almost like we are all in a hugh teraium, made just for us to live in, check out basic 1st year college physical science, but look at it from a builders point of view , (just suspend athiestic thinking for a moment ) all of this  was made by accident??? its very complex to have just happened,


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pm9347 wrote:well ive been

pm9347 wrote:

well ive been working , and caught up on sleep, (cant ever get enough)so back to debate , the ten commandants  both sets cover gen rules to live by to ensure health and community in a time when none of that existed, for those of you that say it doesnt cover  other crimes read the rest of the old testament to find rules on living like numbers , dueotrony, etc, these rules show help creat coexistence, jesus goes on in the new testament and expands on these rules because of hundredes of years tradition, was making us miss the point,

Quote:
both sets cover gen rules to live by to ensure health and community in a time when none of that existed,

Reading history is fun !!  You should give it a shot.. 

 

Also, please show me the specific passage that forbids having sex with children.  I'd consider that one of the more horrific crimes one could commit, wouldn't you ?

After all if such specific things as "shellfish" and "picking up sticks on the sabbath" can be forbidden, finding the verse on buggering children should be a snap.  Perhaps you could get your local "priest" or "pastor" to help you find it.

"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
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pm9347 wrote:ok , some

pm9347 wrote:

ok , some natural proof of god exsitence , i was going to refer all to st. thomas aquinas 5 rational proofs of gods existence but i have to be honest , it gave me a headache, im new to the idea of logic , but if your still interested , sit down with a bowl scoops and some salsa , and read on , well onto it then , im sure some of you might have heard this already, but our enviroment shows an intelligence designed it , we all live in a very narrow 50 mile wide area of habitat , if you go higher then 50 miles you will freeze, the earth sits at  exactly the right distance from the sun to warm us, the size of the earth is perfect allowing gravity to hold mostly nitrogen and oxygen and us for that matter here , our planet is comprised mostly of salt water, yet we drink fresh water as the condensation cycle causes water for us to drink,finally the earth sits at an angle so its heated and cooled at the right time all year. almost like we are all in a hugh teraium, made just for us to live in, check out basic 1st year college physical science, but look at it from a builders point of view , (just suspend athiestic thinking for a moment ) all of this  was made by accident??? its very complex to have just happened,

None of this is an accident in any imaginable way and neither was it designed.  The Earth is not at all even remotely perfect for life (50 miles? WTF? Humans live more than 5000 miles distant North to South).  Aquinas' proofs fail miserably.

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pm9347 wrote:ok , some

pm9347 wrote:

ok , some natural proof of god exsitence , i was going to refer all to st. thomas aquinas 5 rational proofs of gods existence but i have to be honest , it gave me a headache, im new to the idea of logic , but if your still interested , sit down with a bowl scoops and some salsa , and read on , well onto it then , im sure some of you might have heard this already, but our enviroment shows an intelligence designed it , we all live in a very narrow 50 mile wide area of habitat , if you go higher then 50 miles you will freeze, the earth sits at  exactly the right distance from the sun to warm us, the size of the earth is perfect allowing gravity to hold mostly nitrogen and oxygen and us for that matter here , our planet is comprised mostly of salt water, yet we drink fresh water as the condensation cycle causes water for us to drink,finally the earth sits at an angle so its heated and cooled at the right time all year. almost like we are all in a hugh teraium, made just for us to live in, check out basic 1st year college physical science, but look at it from a builders point of view , (just suspend athiestic thinking for a moment ) all of this  was made by accident??? its very complex to have just happened,

Please look at this thread,where almost your exact arguement is used.You'll find lot's of answers http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/13994

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

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pm9347 wrote:ok , some

pm9347 wrote:

ok , some natural proof of god exsitence , i was going to refer all to st. thomas aquinas 5 rational proofs of gods existence

All of which had been shown to fail miserably, based on unsupported assumptions and lack of knowledge of the true nature of the Universe as has been developed since his time by scientific enquiry.

Quote:
but i have to be honest , it gave me a headache, im new to the idea of logic ,

you need more than logic, you need the knowledge based on careful study of reality, looking at ALL the evidence, not just seizing  on scraps of 'evidence' which can be interpreted to support your already firm belief in God.

Any attempt to explain our existence as thinking beings by assuming we were 'created' by a much greater conscious being is logically faulty, because you then have to explain how that greater being was created. If you assume such a being somehow didn't need to be created, then you are being logically inconsistent.

Quote:

but if your still interested , sit down with a bowl scoops and some salsa , and read on , well onto it then , im sure some of you might have heard this already, but our enviroment shows an intelligence designed it , we all live in a very narrow 50 mile wide area of habitat , if you go higher then 50 miles you will freeze, the earth sits at  exactly the right distance from the sun to warm us, the size of the earth is perfect allowing gravity to hold mostly nitrogen and oxygen and us for that matter here , our planet is comprised mostly of salt water, yet we drink fresh water as the condensation cycle causes water for us to drink,finally the earth sits at an angle so its heated and cooled at the right time all year. almost like we are all in a hugh teraium, made just for us to live in, check out basic 1st year college physical science, but look at it from a builders point of view , (just suspend athiestic thinking for a moment ) all of this  was made by accident??? its very complex to have just happened,

We now know that there are almost certainly billions (at least) of planets in the universe, at all different distances from their stars, so it would be incredibly unlikely that none of those had conditions suitable for life, and obviously there was at least one, and here we are. Your argument is invalid at a very basic level, sorry.

All such arguments have been thoroughly addressed elsewhere on this site as well by many writers who were at least as clever as Aquinas and much better informed due to the progress in science  and mathematical and logical analysis since his time.The Universe is a mix of randomness and order, and complexity emerges from the combination of random processes ('accidents') limited by basic physical laws and and what already exists.

For example, the solar system was initially highly chaotic with lumps of rock and other material going round the Sun in very erratic orbits, which meant they kept colliding with each other and either shattering into smaller fragments or sticking together, until the only major chunks left were those moving in nearly circular orbits.  Such orbits as we see now are which are the only ones which can last for a long time without crossing that of another planet and eventually risk colliding with it. Even so, none of the planets go in perfectly circular orbits. But still that is an example of how a really random mess of rocks can settle into what we see as a (relatively) ordered and tidy pattern.

We have many such examples at all levels from the cosmic to the atomic of order and pattern coming from initially random stuff, it only requires a flow of energy so it doesn't violate the Laws of Thermodynamics.  No separate conscious 'designer' required.

You should read more widely.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

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AmericanIdle wrote:pm9347

double post


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AmericanIdle wrote:pm9347

AmericanIdle wrote:

pm9347 wrote:

well ive been working , and caught up on sleep, (cant ever get enough)so back to debate , the ten commandants  both sets cover gen rules to live by to ensure health and community in a time when none of that existed, for those of you that say it doesnt cover  other crimes read the rest of the old testament to find rules on living like numbers , dueotrony, etc, these rules show help creat coexistence, jesus goes on in the new testament and expands on these rules because of hundredes of years tradition, was making us miss the point,

Quote:
both sets cover gen rules to live by to ensure health and community in a time when none of that existed,

Reading history is fun !!  You should give it a shot.. 

 

Also, please show me the specific passage that forbids having sex with children.  I'd consider that one of the more horrific crimes one could commit, wouldn't you ?

After all if such specific things as "shellfish" and "picking up sticks on the sabbath" can be forbidden, finding the verse on buggering children should be a snap.  Perhaps you could get your local "priest" or "pastor" to help you find it.

i would guess that the rule for not having sex with children would be found in the same place as the homosexual rule , or possibly sex with animals if its sexually immoral dont do it , you might not get an exact rule for it , but you should get the idea,


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Thomathy wrote:pm9347

double post


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Thomathy wrote:pm9347

Thomathy wrote:

pm9347 wrote:

ok , some natural proof of god exsitence , i was going to refer all to st. thomas aquinas 5 rational proofs of gods existence but i have to be honest , it gave me a headache, im new to the idea of logic , but if your still interested , sit down with a bowl scoops and some salsa , and read on , well onto it then , im sure some of you might have heard this already, but our enviroment shows an intelligence designed it , we all live in a very narrow 50 mile wide area of habitat , if you go higher then 50 miles you will freeze, the earth sits at  exactly the right distance from the sun to warm us, the size of the earth is perfect allowing gravity to hold mostly nitrogen and oxygen and us for that matter here , our planet is comprised mostly of salt water, yet we drink fresh water as the condensation cycle causes water for us to drink,finally the earth sits at an angle so its heated and cooled at the right time all year. almost like we are all in a hugh teraium, made just for us to live in, check out basic 1st year college physical science, but look at it from a builders point of view , (just suspend athiestic thinking for a moment ) all of this  was made by accident??? its very complex to have just happened,

None of this is an accident in any imaginable way and neither was it designed.  The Earth is not at all even remotely perfect for life (50 miles? WTF? Humans live more than 5000 miles distant North to South).  Aquinas' proofs fail miserably.

sorry i guess i should clarify myself better , i forget that other people are reading this are trying to understand my points, i meant 50 miles up or down. for example your standing on the ground and if you went 50 miles up in the sky, as for the planet being perferct for life  i disagree, no where else in the entire universe has intelligent life been found, every planet we have found so far couldnt sustain life , yet here on this planet we exist, and i agree with aquinas proofs  he shows gods existence rationally even if it gives me a headache,


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Loc wrote:pm9347 wrote:ok ,

double post


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Loc wrote:pm9347 wrote:ok ,

Loc wrote:

pm9347 wrote:

ok , some natural proof of god exsitence , i was going to refer all to st. thomas aquinas 5 rational proofs of gods existence but i have to be honest , it gave me a headache, im new to the idea of logic , but if your still interested , sit down with a bowl scoops and some salsa , and read on , well onto it then , im sure some of you might have heard this already, but our enviroment shows an intelligence designed it , we all live in a very narrow 50 mile wide area of habitat , if you go higher then 50 miles you will freeze, the earth sits at  exactly the right distance from the sun to warm us, the size of the earth is perfect allowing gravity to hold mostly nitrogen and oxygen and us for that matter here , our planet is comprised mostly of salt water, yet we drink fresh water as the condensation cycle causes water for us to drink,finally the earth sits at an angle so its heated and cooled at the right time all year. almost like we are all in a hugh teraium, made just for us to live in, check out basic 1st year college physical science, but look at it from a builders point of view , (just suspend athiestic thinking for a moment ) all of this  was made by accident??? its very complex to have just happened,

Please look at this thread,where almost your exact arguement is used.You'll find lot's of answers http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/13994

ill check it out thanks, 


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BobSpence1 wrote:pm9347

BobSpence1 wrote:

pm9347 wrote:

ok , some natural proof of god exsitence , i was going to refer all to st. thomas aquinas 5 rational proofs of gods existence

All of which had been shown to fail miserably, based on unsupported assumptions and lack of knowledge of the true nature of the Universe as has been developed since his time by scientific enquiry.

Quote:
but i have to be honest , it gave me a headache, im new to the idea of logic ,

you need more than logic, you need the knowledge based on careful study of reality, looking at ALL the evidence, not just seizing  on scraps of 'evidence' which can be interpreted to support your already firm belief in God.

Any attempt to explain our existence as thinking beings by assuming we were 'created' by a much greater conscious being is logically faulty, because you then have to explain how that greater being was created. If you assume such a being somehow didn't need to be created, then you are being logically inconsistent.

Quote:

but if your still interested , sit down with a bowl scoops and some salsa , and read on , well onto it then , im sure some of you might have heard this already, but our enviroment shows an intelligence designed it , we all live in a very narrow 50 mile wide area of habitat , if you go higher then 50 miles you will freeze, the earth sits at  exactly the right distance from the sun to warm us, the size of the earth is perfect allowing gravity to hold mostly nitrogen and oxygen and us for that matter here , our planet is comprised mostly of salt water, yet we drink fresh water as the condensation cycle causes water for us to drink,finally the earth sits at an angle so its heated and cooled at the right time all year. almost like we are all in a hugh teraium, made just for us to live in, check out basic 1st year college physical science, but look at it from a builders point of view , (just suspend athiestic thinking for a moment ) all of this  was made by accident??? its very complex to have just happened,

We now know that there are almost certainly billions (at least) of planets in the universe, at all different distances from their stars, so it would be incredibly unlikely that none of those had conditions suitable for life, and obviously there was at least one, and here we are. Your argument is invalid at a very basic level, sorry.

All such arguments have been thoroughly addressed elsewhere on this site as well by many writers who were at least as clever as Aquinas and much better informed due to the progress in science  and mathematical and logical analysis since his time.The Universe is a mix of randomness and order, and complexity emerges from the combination of random processes ('accidents') limited by basic physical laws and and what already exists.

For example, the solar system was initially highly chaotic with lumps of rock and other material going round the Sun in very erratic orbits, which meant they kept colliding with each other and either shattering into smaller fragments or sticking together, until the only major chunks left were those moving in nearly circular orbits.  Such orbits as we see now are which are the only ones which can last for a long time without crossing that of another planet and eventually risk colliding with it. Even so, none of the planets go in perfectly circular orbits. But still that is an example of how a really random mess of rocks can settle into what we see as a (relatively) ordered and tidy pattern.

We have many such examples at all levels from the cosmic to the atomic of order and pattern coming from initially random stuff, it only requires a flow of energy so it doesn't violate the Laws of Thermodynamics.  No separate conscious 'designer' required.

You should read more widely.

why is my arument invalid ?? you said yourself there are millions of planets with no life as of yet  but here we are. wouldnt you think that, alone may bring up questions as to how we got here. and if your thinking it was luck , odds would prove you wrong once again. and how can we have order in the universe. without someone directing the order or at lease starting the order , you just proved st . thomas aquinas 1st. proof of evidence of god.


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intelligence

pm9347 wrote:

as for the planet being perferct for life  i disagree, no where else in the entire universe has intelligent life been found, every planet we have found so far couldnt sustain life , yet here on this planet we exist,

No one said finding other intelligent life in the universe would be easy. The universe is huge, never mind our own galaxy! let's say a civilization on the other side of this galaxy just sent its first radio wave transmissions out into space right now. since they're on the other side of the Milky Way, we'll assume that they are at least 90,000 light years away (one light year is the time light travels 6 trillion miles in one year) now since they just sent those transmissions, it will take them 90,000 years for their transmissions to reach us. You and I will not know about their existence in this lifetime.

 

Your rationale about Earth being the only world with intelligent beings is narrow sided and invalid. Plus, the fact that we don't know everything about how life can come to be in this universe also proves you wrong. you are right about not finding intelligence at the time, but looking at the astronomical level, you're bound to be wrong. ( we barely scanned a fraction of the universe for intelligence, and like my example, it took take a LONG TIME before we notice anything.) And maybe some of those planets we've found sustain life right now, maybe not in the past in which we see, but those light waves will come around eventually, like 90,000 years from now.

"The longer you live the higher you fly,
the smiles you'll give and the tears you'll cry,
all you touch and all you see,
is all your life will ever be."
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pm9347 wrote:his prayer

pm9347 wrote:

his prayer record may not seem good to you , but ask the woman they pulled out of the wreckage in the china eathquake if prayer works, you might get another answer

Oh fuck ME.

60,000 die. One lives. Therefore God exists.

Gah!

*Goes to find something to blow up*

Nobody I know was brainwashed into being an atheist.

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pm9347 wrote:ok, give it a

pm9347 wrote:

ok, give it a try , come up with 10 rules that all humanity should live by so that we can get all get along and prosper,  oh and how do you all quote someone in your replys ?? it might help me clarify my points easier

 

I would not be so arrogant as to list ten things which all people should live by. I am but one person, with one life and one set of experiences. How can I possibly fathom the conditions and situations of every human being ever to live? Confining so many conditions, so many people, so many situations, to 10 rules is a gross oversimplification.

If this were not true, lawyers would be totally out of a job.

 


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pm9347 wrote: why is my

pm9347 wrote:

 why is my arument invalid ?? you said yourself there are millions of planets with no life as of yet  but here we are. wouldnt you think that, alone may bring up questions as to how we got here. and if your thinking it was luck , odds would prove you wrong once again. and how can we have order in the universe. without someone directing the order or at lease starting the order , you just proved st . thomas aquinas 1st. proof of evidence of god.

Nobody I know was brainwashed into being an atheist.

Why Believe?


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pm9347 wrote:AmericanIdle

pm9347 wrote:

AmericanIdle wrote:

pm9347 wrote:

well ive been working , and caught up on sleep, (cant ever get enough)so back to debate , the ten commandants  both sets cover gen rules to live by to ensure health and community in a time when none of that existed, for those of you that say it doesnt cover  other crimes read the rest of the old testament to find rules on living like numbers , dueotrony, etc, these rules show help creat coexistence, jesus goes on in the new testament and expands on these rules because of hundredes of years tradition, was making us miss the point,

Quote:
both sets cover gen rules to live by to ensure health and community in a time when none of that existed,

Reading history is fun !!  You should give it a shot.. 

 

Also, please show me the specific passage that forbids having sex with children.  I'd consider that one of the more horrific crimes one could commit, wouldn't you ?

After all if such specific things as "shellfish" and "picking up sticks on the sabbath" can be forbidden, finding the verse on buggering children should be a snap.  Perhaps you could get your local "priest" or "pastor" to help you find it.

i would guess that the rule for not having sex with children would be found in the same place as the homosexual rule , or possibly sex with animals if its sexually immoral dont do it , you might not get an exact rule for it , but you should get the idea,

So what you're saying is.. you don't even know the bible well enough to tell me where I might find this verse.  It's your own sacred scripture.

Allow me....It doesn't exist !  Your make-believe god was so opposed to shellfish that he decreed a specific prohibition against it.  Your ten commandments are so precious that they forbid that you coveting your neighbor yet nowhere do they suggest that it would be wrong to rape an innocent child.

These aren't great rules to live by.  They're a cruel joke if you expect that these 10 (idiotic) commandments are somehow all-encompassing or that they could make better people.  No one needs a commandment from some make-believe deity to tell them not to kill.  Good people don't need that commandment.. They just know not to, which by the way makes a non-believer infinitely more superior to the bible believer in terms of morality.

Sometimes I get really frustrated by people that just seem to feed on ignorance like it was candy.

And by the way, "Go and sin no more" is no more a commandment not to rape a 3 yr old than "they were all in one accord" describes the disciples travelling through the desert in a Honda, before you try to make crap up..  

Additionally, there were far better commandments to live by centuries before the ten commandments supposedly came about.

Oh, and forcing innocent children to have sex hasn't the slightest correlation to two adults engaging in any kind of consenting relationship, sexual or otherwise, whether male or female.

 

"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
George Orwell


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pm9347 wrote:ok , some

pm9347 wrote:

ok , some natural proof of god exsitence , i was going to refer all to st. thomas aquinas 5 rational proofs of gods existence but i have to be honest , it gave me a headache, im new to the idea of logic , but if your still interested , sit down with a bowl scoops and some salsa , and read on , well onto it then , im sure some of you might have heard this already, but our enviroment shows an intelligence designed it , we all live in a very narrow 50 mile wide area of habitat , if you go higher then 50 miles you will freeze, the earth sits at  exactly the right distance from the sun to warm us, the size of the earth is perfect allowing gravity to hold mostly nitrogen and oxygen and us for that matter here , our planet is comprised mostly of salt water, yet we drink fresh water as the condensation cycle causes water for us to drink,finally the earth sits at an angle so its heated and cooled at the right time all year. almost like we are all in a hugh teraium, made just for us to live in, check out basic 1st year college physical science, but look at it from a builders point of view , (just suspend athiestic thinking for a moment ) all of this  was made by accident??? its very complex to have just happened,

 

Stop you idiot !

first :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzGIq81cGmY

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/mzGIq81cGmY&hl=en"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/mzGIq81cGmY&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>


You just contradicted geology and meteorology ! Who designed the sculpture in the video ! You can see it on Google earth and see the process with formed the sculptor can be seen ! Clouds Who designed the cloud patterns ? You are a moron if you disagree explain the designers shown in this video you cant !

Second :

Crystals explain crystals they form complexity with simple reactions.
 

 

 

Warning I’m not a native English speaker.

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Ok life on planet earth and others

Ok for 1 billion years, life on this planet was non existant....after that for 2 billion years life was pretty much cell based, amoeba based lifeforms....for the past 1 billions years we have had mammals, fish, lizards etc live on this planet, for the past 100,000 years modern man has existed......think about that for a bit, it took roughly 4 billion years for us to get to our present state, and everything wasn't perfect, we are just the product of this enviorment.

The earth's distance variation from the sun is about 3 million miles, what keeps the planet warm isn't just the sun (although it is a good part of it), but greenhouse effect, as well as geological events (remember the earth has an internal heat source) which many planets actually do have, some are just hotter than others.

Now for life on other planets, it is foolisht to believe that no life can exists except on planet earth.  Scientists are starting to find many planets that are similar to earth in distance and size. The other thing you want to keep in mind, is that our part of the galaxy has 10 billion solar systems, the universe has roughly 100 billion galaxies each with 10 billion solar systems (some have more other less but this number is nice and round to work with). Now how many solar systems is that, that's 10 followed by 20 zeros

1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

The chance of life in this galaxy 1 in 10,000,000,000 so if you really look at what we have and know, there is a 1 in 10 billion chance of life in the universe so there is a good possiblity there is life on other planets, we may never find them, ever (you know it's a large large universe) but you cannot say that there is no life, just because we haven't found it doesn't mean it's not there, the numbers are there to back up the idea.


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Epic Fail


Aquinas wrote:
1 - FIRST MOVER: Some things are in motion, anything moved is moved by another, and there can't be an infinite series of movers. So there must be a first mover (a mover that isn't itself moved by another). This is God.

Aquinas didn't have a clue about sub atomic particles, quantum mechanics et al...
You will note that Aquinas also runs afoul of the fallacious tendency to place an arbitrary point of reference and call it 'god'.

Aquinas wrote:
2 - FIRST CAUSE: Some things are caused, anything caused is caused by another, and there can't be an infinite series of causes. So there must be a first cause (a cause that isn't itself caused by another). This is God.

Cause + Time interval = Effect.
The key to this eqation is the interval of time, between cause and effect, it must be there, else effect and cause are in essence the same.
Since time 'began' with the transition event known as the 'big bang', there was no before...thus no cause, because there could be no interval of time...

Aquinas wrote:
3 - NECESSARY BEING: Every contingent being at some time fails to exist. So if everything were contingent, then at some time there would have been nothing -- and so there would be nothing now -- which is clearly false. So not everything is contingent. So there is a necessary being. This is God.

All things are mortal, thus there must be an immortal being...
This falsely presupposes an immortal 'being' ands fails to link cause and effect... non sequitor...A circular argument, patently false.

Aquinas wrote:
4 - GREATEST BEING: Some things are greater than others. Whatever is great to any degree gets its greatness from that which is the greatest. So there is a greatest being, which is the source of all greatness. This is God.

This one is just silly... but like #3, it presupposes a 'greatest being' along an arbitrary and ambiguous quality of 'greatness' and circles back to reference the initial proposition... Fail

Aquinas wrote:
5 - INTELLIGENT DESIGNER: Many things in the world that lack intelligence act for an end. Whatever acts for an end must be directed by an intelligent being. So the world must have an intelligent designer. This is God.

The old 'purpose begets design' fallacy...
Purpose is an arbitrary designation, and may be argued that most things have no 'purpose' at all. But again, this is merely an exercise in chasing one's philosophical tail... circular, self referencing, thus... it fails.

Conclusion, Aquinas was a colossal boob.

A bad argument, unlike wine does not get better with age.

Pat... reading bad logical arguments that you admit you don't understand and then regurgitating them on this forum won't gain the respect and admiration of the masses.

Just because something seems to validate your superstitions doesn't make it true...


LC >;-}>

 

 

Christianity: A disgusting middle eastern blood cult, based in human sacrifice, with sacraments of cannibalism and vampirism, whose highest icon is of a near naked man hanging in torment from a device of torture.


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pm9347 wrote:ok , some

pm9347 wrote:

ok , some natural proof of god exsitence , i was going to refer all to st. thomas aquinas 5 rational proofs of gods existence but i have to be honest , it gave me a headache, im new to the idea of logic , but if your still interested , sit down with a bowl scoops and some salsa , and read on , well onto it then , im sure some of you might have heard this already, but our enviroment shows an intelligence designed it , we all live in a very narrow 50 mile wide area of habitat , if you go higher then 50 miles you will freeze, the earth sits at  exactly the right distance from the sun to warm us, the size of the earth is perfect allowing gravity to hold mostly nitrogen and oxygen and us for that matter here , our planet is comprised mostly of salt water, yet we drink fresh water as the condensation cycle causes water for us to drink,finally the earth sits at an angle so its heated and cooled at the right time all year. almost like we are all in a hugh teraium, made just for us to live in, check out basic 1st year college physical science, but look at it from a builders point of view , (just suspend athiestic thinking for a moment ) all of this  was made by accident??? its very complex to have just happened,

A couple of comments on your points:

- If you go higher than 50 miles, you're in orbit, and would need a serious source of thrust to get there.  Claiming we exist in this 50 mile-high Goldilocks zone is proof of god is to discount the effects of gravity.

- The condensation cycle results in fresh water for purely physical/chemical reasons: rocks (of which salt is one) do not evaporate, water does.  Check out http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/postmonth/may05.html for a neat explanation of blood salinity and the environment.

- Please define "the right time" in your statement about the planet's axial tilt.

In short, you have the cart before the horse; it is because of these conditions that we exist in our current state; our current state did not dictate the conditions we required of the planet.

pm9347 wrote:
sorry i guess i should clarify myself better , i forget that other people are reading this are trying to understand my points, i meant 50 miles up or down. for example your standing on the ground and if you went 50 miles up in the sky, as for the planet being perferct for life  i disagree, no where else in the entire universe has intelligent life been found, every planet we have found so far couldnt sustain life ,

You are making a fairly common error in the basis of this argument.  Yes, we have found no other planets so far that have earth-like life on them, let alone intelligent.  This says nothing, however, about life that is NOT like our own, which is a likely probability.  Sulfur and methane are both possibilities for the basis of metabolism.  If a chemical reaction releases heat, a form of life may use it in its metabolic cycle.

Quote:

yet here on this planet we exist, and i agree with aquinas proofs  he shows gods existence rationally even if it gives me a headache,

No, not so rationally.  They're full of circular reasoning, special pleadings and non-sequitirs.  If they were proper arguments, he'd be taught in every high school between Pythagoras and Newton.  Many of his proofs take the form of "Assume god exists.  If god didn't exist, then something that happened couldn't happen.  But it happened, so therefore god exists."  They make a lot of unfounded assumptions (if it is possible for something to be the "prime mover", you also have to prove that this thing is also the ONLY prime mover, which was not done.).

To deduce that a god exists, you would have to prove (at least; experts, what have I missed?) the following:

- that any of the qualities this god is supposed to have were possible (i.e., prove that omniscience, etc.,  was actually possible as a quality)

- that they were possible for a something to have (i.e., prove that this entity you're talking about was capable of omniscience, etc.)

- that this entity had the necessary qualities (i.e., that this entity actually was omniscient, etc.)

- that this entity you're describing is the entity you're considering (i.e., that this entity you've proven is omniscient, etc., is actually the god you're talking about and not something else)

No one in the history of thought has been able to do this.

Absence of proof is not proof of absence (meaning just because someone hasn't proven a given proposition does not necessarily imply that a proof is impossible), but absence of evidence is evidence of absence (meaning that if there is absolutely no evidence of a claim, the odds of that claim being true are slim to none).  We have no evidence that any god exists, and so therefore it is reasonable to not believe that any god exists.

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pm9347 wrote:BobSpence1

pm9347 wrote:

BobSpence1 wrote:

pm9347 wrote:

ok , some natural proof of god exsitence , i was going to refer all to st. thomas aquinas 5 rational proofs of gods existence

All of which had been shown to fail miserably, based on unsupported assumptions and lack of knowledge of the true nature of the Universe as has been developed since his time by scientific enquiry.

Quote:
but i have to be honest , it gave me a headache, im new to the idea of logic ,

you need more than logic, you need the knowledge based on careful study of reality, looking at ALL the evidence, not just seizing  on scraps of 'evidence' which can be interpreted to support your already firm belief in God.

Any attempt to explain our existence as thinking beings by assuming we were 'created' by a much greater conscious being is logically faulty, because you then have to explain how that greater being was created. If you assume such a being somehow didn't need to be created, then you are being logically inconsistent.

Quote:

but if your still interested , sit down with a bowl scoops and some salsa , and read on , well onto it then , im sure some of you might have heard this already, but our enviroment shows an intelligence designed it , we all live in a very narrow 50 mile wide area of habitat , if you go higher then 50 miles you will freeze, the earth sits at  exactly the right distance from the sun to warm us, the size of the earth is perfect allowing gravity to hold mostly nitrogen and oxygen and us for that matter here , our planet is comprised mostly of salt water, yet we drink fresh water as the condensation cycle causes water for us to drink,finally the earth sits at an angle so its heated and cooled at the right time all year. almost like we are all in a hugh teraium, made just for us to live in, check out basic 1st year college physical science, but look at it from a builders point of view , (just suspend athiestic thinking for a moment ) all of this  was made by accident??? its very complex to have just happened,

We now know that there are almost certainly billions (at least) of planets in the universe, at all different distances from their stars, so it would be incredibly unlikely that none of those had conditions suitable for life, and obviously there was at least one, and here we are. Your argument is invalid at a very basic level, sorry.

All such arguments have been thoroughly addressed elsewhere on this site as well by many writers who were at least as clever as Aquinas and much better informed due to the progress in science  and mathematical and logical analysis since his time.The Universe is a mix of randomness and order, and complexity emerges from the combination of random processes ('accidents') limited by basic physical laws and and what already exists.

For example, the solar system was initially highly chaotic with lumps of rock and other material going round the Sun in very erratic orbits, which meant they kept colliding with each other and either shattering into smaller fragments or sticking together, until the only major chunks left were those moving in nearly circular orbits.  Such orbits as we see now are which are the only ones which can last for a long time without crossing that of another planet and eventually risk colliding with it. Even so, none of the planets go in perfectly circular orbits. But still that is an example of how a really random mess of rocks can settle into what we see as a (relatively) ordered and tidy pattern.

We have many such examples at all levels from the cosmic to the atomic of order and pattern coming from initially random stuff, it only requires a flow of energy so it doesn't violate the Laws of Thermodynamics.  No separate conscious 'designer' required.

You should read more widely.

why is my arument invalid ?? you said yourself there are millions of planets with no life as of yet  but here we are. wouldnt you think that, alone may bring up questions as to how we got here. and if your thinking it was luck , odds would prove you wrong once again. and how can we have order in the universe. without someone directing the order or at lease starting the order , you just proved st . thomas aquinas 1st. proof of evidence of god.

I did not say there were 'millions of planets with no life'. I said there were at least billions of planets, but we don't have any way to know whether any of them have life on them on not.

Now if we had in fact examined billions of planets closely enough to detect life and found nothing, then you could start to raise your objection, but we are only just now making preliminary tests for the possibility of life on Mars, at great expense.

I will spell it out for you:

First, we have only recently developed techniques for detecting planets less than the size of Jupiter around other stars, and  then only for stars relatively close to us, in the cosmic scale of things. We have detected at least one only a couple of times bigger than the Earth which could possibly have liquid water, a minimum requirement for Earth-style life. Given the difficulty of detecting smaller planets, it is unlikely that we will ever actually detect more than a handful of roughly Earth-style planets, but given these discoveries, it seems likely that the proportion of stars with a bunch of planets orbitting them, at various distances and sizes, like our own Solar System, is much higher than was once thought.

So we haven't actually found any planets closely resembling Earth, simply because of the distances involved and the difficulty of detecting a small relatively cold lump of rock close to the much larger body emitting massive amounts of light and heat, but as we have refined our techniques, we are finding more and smaller ones, so there is no good reason to think that there won't be any. After all, our own Sun has bodies all the way from Jupiter down to grains of sand going around it.If you want           

Since on current estimates there are somewhere between 10^22 and 10^24 stars in the Universe (that's 1 followed by 22 to 23 zeroes), even if only 1 in a million has a system of planets similar to ours, that's down to 16 zeroes. If there is a 1 in a trillion chance of life of some form arising on such a planet, that leaves only 10000  planets like Earth with life on them. Look up the Drake Equation on the 'net.

The point being, with these figures, even if the odds pf human type life evolving purely by accident on a suitable planet around any given star were 1 in 1000,000,000,000,000,000,000, that means it's highly likely, to have occurred at least once, and that's all we need to explain our existence without requiring the special intervention of a God.

If you want to dodge by saying that you need a God to create all those stars, why did he fo it in such an incredibly wasteful manner?

We know order can arise from disorder without divine (or even human) intervention - watch a crystal grow. That argument has zero merit.

Any attempt to explain how conscious beings arose by assuming the existence of a more powerful conscious being has not explained anything. You have just invented a bigger problem, to explain how that even more impressive being came into existence. And don't go on about 'He has always existed', that's a much wilder and unsupportable idea than the concept that ordered structure can arise by natural processes, and given enough time and space, there is no inherent limit to what can arise. We actually observe such processes, and have lots of mathematics and computer simulations to show that the emergence of highly complex entities is plausible, ie, consistent with current observations and theories.

Whereas an invisible, eternal, conscious entity, capable of creating the Universe, has no positive evidence for it, and doesn't really fit with actual observations.

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sorry for the absence, im

sorry for the absence, im putting my hardwood floor in this weekend, and even now im sitting on my concrete floor , trying to figure out how this works??  but im reading all the responses, and looking into the arguments , some ive found jut really amazing well thought out responses from people who are really seeking the truth , and others just angry assholes who dont even consider other peoples point of view. ill have the floor in by monday, and ill try give better reasons for gods existence through nature ,and by our current situation, sorry but im really looking foward to the new floor...