Religious moderation

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Religious moderation

 

 Hi guys. It has been quite a long time that I have visited this site. That's because I'm in the process of registering our Philippine atheist group (Pinoy Atheist) in the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC). Anyway, it seems religious believers now a days, are into "Religious Moderation". I think it's just their way to ignoring the issues of problems religion has to offer. For one thing, I think religious moderation was created to divert the issues to the non-believers. Here's a good example. I have recieve this questions from a Christian and just by reading these questions, it seems that the believer is trying to justify that religion has nothing to do with war...hmmmm...and that non-belief is more dangerous that having a religion (by inserting communist issues). So what do you think? Well I'm just soliciting answers since I'm really still not to familiar in dealing with religious moderation. I still need your help. Here are the questions: 1. Where the wars so often cited by militants (the Crusades, etc.) primarily religious in nature, or did their root causes stem from other factors such as economics, nationalism, and territorial expansion - as many experts in the field suggest? Or is the truth somewhere in between?    2. Historically, has terrorism been driven primarily by religion - or by other forces? (See Robert Pape's work on the subject.)    3. Does the historical experience of nontheistic countries challenge the notion that religion is a major factor in causing internal oppression or external military conflict? (Note: I'm not suggesting that nontheistic countries went to war to defend nontheism," as one atheist writer characterized the argument. The question is: Does the absence of religion as a motivator reduce the likelihood of war, as the militants suggest - or not? Suggested countries of study: Cambodia, China/Tibet, USSR.)    4. What is the extent of religion's role in creating individual discontent and unhappiness through ostracism, sexual repression, prejudice, etc. in various world cultures? (I suspect it's substantial, but I'd like more data.)    5. Is Islam the origin for genital mutilation, stoning of adulterous wives, and other abusive practices? (Note: Neither practice is condoned by the Qu’ran, nor both existed as tribal practices before Islam. Historically weaker Prophetic sayings, or 'hadith,' are cited to support them. (See Reza Aslan.)    6. Would the elimination of religion alone eliminate these harmful practices, or would additional actions need to take place?      7. If so, how can such practices are stopped most quickly and effectively - by campaigning to eliminate all religion, or by using moderate religion as a countermeasure against extremism?    8. Can the positive influence of religion - in reducing conflict, bringing personal fulfillment, building communities, etc. - be quantified and measured against the negatives?    9. Do the social problems caused by religion stem from personal religious belief, from organized religious activity, or both?  10. Is all religious activity harmful, or just the fundamentalist variety (which one research project estimates involves roughly one-fifth of all religious populations)?  11. Is it true, as some atheists argue that Buddhism's more peaceful doctrine propagates less violence and war than monotheistic religions with violent sacred texts?  12. Does 'moderate religion' enable fundamentalism to continue? (That's another core militant assumption - also unproven.) Or, does it draw adherents away from fundamentalism and thereby weaken its negative effects?  13. What's the best way to advocate for needed changes - through aggressive attacks on religion or milder persuasion?   14. Do the internal dynamics of religious communities suggest that extremism and fundamentalism are the primary source of religion's negative effects - or do these effects come from something fundamental about religious belief itself?  15. Would the eradication of religion lead to increased trauma, and/or decreased mental and physical health? If so, how should we prepare to address that problem as we work to eradicate religion?------------------------------------------------------- Thank you very much and more power.Pinoy Atheist

 


Hambydammit
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1.  I don't think there's

1.  I don't think there's ever been a war that was solely religious.  Certainly many have been religiously motivated, and it would be rather naive to think that there weren't people who believed it was all about religion at the time.  In fact, I'd say that's where religion is most powerful -- as a focus for those who are being asked to fight and support the war.

2. I'd need a specific definition of terrorism to answer this.

3. I think in some ways, yes.  Specifically, I'd point out the Scandinavian countries and much of Northern Europe.  There are some confounding issues, such as whether or not these countries are strategically important enough to be involved in war as much as volatile areas like the Middle East.  I think the more relevant challenge to moderate theism is that nontheist countries with egalitarian governments tend to experience significantly less societal dysfunction, which may have a secondary influence on the country's likelihood to engage in destructive foreign policy.

4.  I also think the impact is substantial.  I'd go a bit farther and say that religion is the primary source of individual discontent and unhappiness in many parts of the world.  The problem with data is that most of it is secondary.  In other words, we have to extrapolate from other data, since there's not really a way to have a proper control.  We can't exactly place a secular version of the United States next to the current version and compare them.  Opponents will always argue that the confounding issues are the real cause for discontent, but I think a thorough study of psychology and sociology, combined with the rather strong negative correlation between societal dysfunction and religiosity, belie that opinion.

5. Not even remotely.  Since Islam started well into the Common Era, and the Old Testament condones and even commands all of these things, we can see that this is so.  I am not aware of a culture before that which institutionalized them to the extent that Islam did.

6. I think religion is part of a larger problem, namely the belief that some things are true despite being contrary to the evidence.  There would certainly need to be more done.  Primarily, I think teaching all children good critical thinking skills would make a big difference.

7. I don't think it's practical to try to end all religion.  I think the best approach is actually to attack moderates in particular on logical and philosophical grounds.  Fundamentalists will not see reason, but moderates facilitate fundamentalists, making the insanity possible.  Please read THIS ESSAY.

8. I don't think there is much in the way of positive influence in these areas.  Reason and science alone provide the strongest arguments for the things you mention.

9.  Whether it's the chicken or the egg, chickens lay eggs.  I think religion originated around the same time that we started developing human culture, so I'm not really sure it's even a relevant question.

10.  Again, please reference my essay.  I believe moderates facilitate and implicitly condone fundamentalists, and are at least equally culpable.

11.  It appears to be true.

12. You know my opinion by now.

13.  I think both are necessary.

14.  It seems pretty clear that there is a personality type, known as the Authoritarian, that tends strongly towards religion.  My guess is that religion's negative effects are a manifestation of this personality type.

The Authoritarian Specter  

The Authoritarian Specter by Robert Altemeyer (Hardcover - Nov 15, 1996)

15. I believe that most people believe in belief more than they believe in god.  The reality is that I've hardly ever met an atheist who was worse off since deconversion.  Surely, there would be some who freaked, but I think the percentage would be really small.

 

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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deludedgod
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My principle concern with

My principle concern with religious moderatism is that it trades literal, absurd propositions propogated by fundamentalists for vague and nonsensical propositions, and by this virtue, somehow think what they believe is more "sophisticated".

Note here that there is a clear difference between "absurd" and "nonsense". A proposition can be absurd and still be meaningful. The proposition "the moon is made of green cheese" is absurd, but it is not nonsense.

To wit, the fundamentalist belief in literal fire-and-hell brimstone and so and so forth, is absurd. It steals concepts from physicality and makes non sequitur assertions that are categorically in error. It is a literal belief, and an absurd one. On the other hand, the gentler sounding "hell is seperation from God" is not absurd, but rather meaningless. To judge whether a claim is absurd is to know that the claim makes a coherent statement which can be acted upon in such a manner that one can assign truth values to that assertion. With respect to the vague metaphysical propositions that are endorsed by religious moderation, no such process can be done. The claim "hell is seperation from God" is little more than metaphysical poetry, which does not actually make coherent, concrete, evaluable statements about the nature of reality. We have a word (actually, several) for these sorts of assertions. We say they are vapid. Therefore, what irks me most is that they try to pass off such ideas as being more sophisticated than their fundamentalist and literalist counterparts. If by sophistication, we mean paring down an idea until the meaning has been stripped from it and it is reduced to nonsense which cannot act upon, then I suppose it is. However, this is not presumably what we mean by sophistication.

For another case, consider the oft-heard proposition: "All faiths are equally valid". Whilst this may sound like a call for tolerance, it is still a proposition which shoots itself in the foot? Why? Because numerous different religious metaphysical propositions make assertions about the nature of reality that are in direct contradiction and competition with other religious metaphysical propositions, also staking their claims to truth. Hence, another thing that irks me about religious moderatism is that they are more concerned with their aforementioned appeals to vague metaphysical statements as well as tolerance of their other ocunterparts as opposed to actually attempting to make meaningful statements that can be evaluated. THe fact is, if we have a group of mutually contradictory statements about the nature of reality, then by virtue of basic axioms, there will exist a set of sentences contained therein that are false. Therefore, it is a non sequitur to assert they are all equally valid, or that they all deserve an equal amount of respect.

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

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Hambydammit
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Quote:For another case,

Quote:
For another case, consider the oft-heard proposition: "All faiths are equally valid".

Then again, by definition, faith is belief in something for which there is no evidence, or evidence to the contrary.  Since there is necessarily a flaw in any logical proof of a faith, we can say that all faiths are equally valid.  Rather, they are all equally invalid.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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Nordmann
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Always answer questions with

Always answer questions with questions. Answering religiously motivated questions using the parameters set by the questioner leads to answers riddled with qualifications, rendering them worthless as a medium for getting your point through to people who, of necessity, suspect qualification and tune out when it appears.

 

The answer to "1. Were the wars so often cited by militants (the Crusades, etc.) primarily religious in nature, or did their root causes stem from other factors such as economics, nationalism, and territorial expansion - as many experts in the field suggest? Or is the truth somewhere in between?" is therefore

Are you suggesting that religions are not as adept at starting wars as some have suggested but are brilliant at hijacking them to their own ends?

"2. Historically, has terrorism been driven primarily by religion - or by other forces? (See Robert Pape's work on the subject.)"

Historically has religious expression included and accommodated terrorism, and hasn't it often facilitated, promoted and enabled such violence in its name? (See Robert Pape's work on this subject too.)

"3. Does the historical experience of nontheistic countries challenge the notion that religion is a major factor in causing internal oppression or external military conflict? (Note: I'm not suggesting that nontheistic countries went to war to defend nontheism," as one atheist writer characterized the argument. The question is: Does the absence of religion as a motivator reduce the likelihood of war, as the militants suggest - or not? Suggested countries of study: Cambodia, China/Tibet, USSR.)"

Does the historical experience of theistic countries endorse the view ("notion" is a dismissive term) that religion is at the least a facilitating factor in causing internal oppression and/or military conflict, both external and internal? (Note on your note: The question is: Does the presence of religion as a motivator accelerate the likelihood of war? Suggested countries of study: Iran, Iraq, Israel, Former Yugoslavia, Germany, France, Ireland, USA.)

"4. What is the extent of religion's role in creating individual discontent and unhappiness through ostracism, sexual repression, prejudice, etc. in various world cultures? (I suspect it's substantial, but I'd like more data.)"

How on earth are you failing to find data to verify just how substantial it is ?

"5. Is Islam the origin for genital mutilation, stoning of adulterous wives, and other abusive practices? (Note: Neither practice is condoned by the Qu’ran, nor both existed as tribal practices before Islam. Historically weaker Prophetic sayings, or 'hadith,' are cited to support them. (See Reza Aslan.)"

Is Islamic faith used as a justification for barbarism? Are Islamic authorities (sic) doing enough to prevent such wanton cruelty? If not, why not?

"6. Would the elimination of religion alone eliminate these harmful practices, or would additional actions need to take place?"

Would it not be great if the elimination of religion could at least be tried? Do you not agree that such practices are less likely to occur as ingrained behavioural norms in secular countries where civil law has been established without reference to religious input? Is this not at least one of the critical factors you are alluding to?

"7. If so, how can such practices are stopped most quickly and effectively - by campaigning to eliminate all religion, or by using moderate religion as a countermeasure against extremism?"

Why do you think that terrorism motivated by faith-based irrationality can be 'countered' by faith-based irrationality moderated in any way? If you hold such an absurd view does that not simply demonstrate the utter improbability of irrational thought being eleiminated through a "campaign"? Or are you thinking in religious terms, where "campaigning" is a strategy used to proselytise and propagate irrationality and you think everyone stoops to that level?

"8. Can the positive influence of religion - in reducing conflict, bringing personal fulfillment, building communities, etc. - be quantified and measured against the negatives?"

Why do religious people tend to ascribe the credit for humanitarian and sociable behaviour to their own initiatives? Does the presence of such behaviour globally not serve as proof that it owes little or nothing to religious faith and everything to the human condition as it exists at this point in the evolutionary process to which it is subject?

"9. Do the social problems caused by religion stem from personal religious belief, from organized religious activity, or both?"

Is not the point of religious organisation to encourage individuals' personal religious belief to conform to pre-decided uniform doctrine and codes? How many people can claim to hold a personal religious belief that has not been informed in some measure by organised religious doctrine and codes? By separating these aspects in your question are you trying to create and exaggerate a dichotomy where none in fact exists? If so, why?

"10. Is all religious activity harmful, or just the fundamentalist variety (which one research project estimates involves roughly one-fifth of all religious populations)?"

Is not all religious belief fundamentally irrational? Is adherence to irrationality not harmful whether it is represented by people applying literal truth to Iron Age texts or by any other means of displaying scorn for scientifically deduced fact? Has any research project ever quantified how many religious people have invested faith in irrational presumptions?

"11. Is it true, as some atheists argue that Buddhism's more peaceful doctrine propagates less violence and war than monotheistic religions with violent sacred texts?"

Do you need to ask that question? If so, would a "yes" answer surprise or dissapoint you? And if that is so, then should you ask yourself why any rational person would adhere to a religion where violent sacred texts contribute to the ethos they are told they should aspire to?

12. Does 'moderate religion' enable fundamentalism to continue? (That's another core militant assumption - also unproven.) Or, does it draw adherents away from fundamentalism and thereby weaken its negative effects?

Does attempting to make irrationality "reasonable" and socially acceptable not simply facilitate those whose equally irrational precepts are used to justify barbarism? Isn't the best way of tackling the issue not a complete shift away from irrationality as an acceptable basis for believing anything and therefore deprive those who commit violence using faith as a justification the comfort of presuming that their views have ideological validity, if not legal validity?

"13. What's the best way to advocate for needed changes - through aggressive attacks on religion or milder persuasion?"

Are you not using the term "religion" here a little too loosely (to the point of meaninglessness)? Should you not distinguish between those who propagate such irrational views, those who through ignorance subscribe to such views, and those who have simply adopted such views through the osmosis of social interaction? Is there not room therefore for both "aggressive" and "mild" tactics of persuasion in securing these "needed changes", as well as many other techniques depending on how the irrational position is defended?

"14. Do the internal dynamics of religious communities suggest that extremism and fundamentalism are the primary source of religion's negative effects - or do these effects come from something fundamental about religious belief itself?"

Why are you still supposing that religion might have "positive effects"? Are any of these effects not achievable without recourse to a dependency on irrational superstitions, unfounded beliefs and dogma?

"15. Would the eradication of religion lead to increased trauma, and/or decreased mental and physical health? If so, how should we prepare to address that problem as we work to eradicate religion?"

Are you seriously suggesting that religion itself is not a cause for trauma? Or that religion has not contributed in many ways to the detriment of people's health, both physical and mental? Does your last question not contain the obvious (and best) answer to itself just in the last two words?

 

 

 

 

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Luminon
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..

1. Where the wars so often cited by militants (the Crusades, etc.) primarily religious in nature, or did their root causes stem from other factors such as economics, nationalism, and territorial expansion - as many experts in the field suggest? Or is the truth somewhere in between?
1. I believe the wars exists for all sorts of reasons, even multiple for an one war. Various reasons for the same war are held by various people. Common people goes to war, because of religion, ideology, or because of being deceived. Rulers initiates war for conquest, expanding their power and looting. Military makes war to empty the warehouses off an old machinery and ammo, and to fill it with some modern, and to try new weapons. And it's all just one war.

2. Historically, has terrorism been driven primarily by religion - or by other forces? (See Robert Pape's work on the subject.)
2. Terrorism is caused by injustice. Take the word 'jihad', for example. In islamic tradition, it has a good sense. It means something like a personal quest, a war against evil in self and in others, a struggling against poverty, or even going on an university.  Being a martyr is not entirely necessary for the idea of jihad. When a man goes on jihad, he must obtain a blessing from his mother, otherwise he'd be taintned, expelled from community, and if he'd die as a martyr (terrorist) he wouldn't go to paradise. If the islamic mothers would be properly educated and not threatened by invaders (like christianic crusaders or USA army), they wouldn't give their sons a blessing to go on terroristic kind of jihad and extremists would run off recruits and social support. War against terrorism can be won only by charity.

   3. Does the historical experience of nontheistic countries challenge the notion that religion is a major factor in causing internal oppression or external military conflict? (Note: I'm not suggesting that nontheistic countries went to war to defend nontheism," as one atheist writer characterized the argument. The question is: Does the absence of religion as a motivator reduce the likelihood of war, as the militants suggest - or not? Suggested countries of study: Cambodia, China/Tibet, USSR.)
3. Religion itself doesn't mean necessarily an agressivity of a country or culture. However, it can be a good tool for controlling the masses towards the interests of power and conquest. Just like communism, capitalism, nazism, and so on.

   4. What is the extent of religion's role in creating individual discontent and unhappiness through ostracism, sexual repression, prejudice, etc. in various world cultures? (I suspect it's substantial, but I'd like more data.)
4. Organized religion reflects the intents of it's organizators. If the organizators, the people in control of it, would have a good will, they wouldn't be there, they would let the religion free the people, not tighten their ideologic slavery. Often the organizators themselves are caught in the ideology. I believe it doesn't give a sense to you, let's shorten it: "fight the system!"

   5. Is Islam the origin for genital mutilation, stoning of adulterous wives, and other abusive practices? (Note: Neither practice is condoned by the Qu’ran, nor both existed as tribal practices before Islam. Historically weaker Prophetic sayings, or 'hadith,' are cited to support them. (See Reza Aslan.)
5. I don't know if islam caused these practices, but I'm afraid, that some of them became a part of culture, tradition and people's mentality. For example, female genital mutilation is considered as a fashion (it makes a pussy more "smooth&quotEye-wink and also it's a symbolical making a man more masculine (removing a foreskin, as a resemblance of woman's labia) and woman more feminine (removed clitoris, resembling a male penis).
 
  6. Would the elimination of religion alone eliminate these harmful practices, or would additional actions need to take place?
6. In harsh circumstances people tends to stick more with religion, to be more orthodox. So it's not a matter of removing the religion, but removing the injustice, poverty, diseases and unequality, which plagues 50% of the world. The rest should be fixed with an available basic education.

   7. If so, how can such practices are stopped most quickly and effectively - by campaigning to eliminate all religion, or by using moderate religion as a countermeasure against extremism?
7. see 6.

  8. Can the positive influence of religion - in reducing conflict, bringing personal fulfillment, building communities, etc. - be quantified and measured against the negatives?
8. In organized religion, and in the world full of injustice, hardly. However, religional harm is mainly a side effect of it.
 

   9. Do the social problems caused by religion stem from personal religious belief, from organized religious activity, or both?
9. As the original cause, religion doesn't cause social problems. Social problems causes religion. A healthy person doesn't need a doctor, a happy person doesn't need a priest. Doctors keeps us on an edge of illness, religion keeps us in fear of hell. Both medicine and religion is mostly organized and often misused.

10. Is all religious activity harmful, or just the fundamentalist variety (which one research project estimates involves roughly one-fifth of all religious populations)?
10. Non-organized religion may be free of many problems, which people have associated with religion, and in the same time, helps with personal growth, and if not, it's an individual cause, not of a religion itself. I am OK with an idea of being religional, being in relationship with God, but skipping all old testament and church hierarchy. No ritually-clad intermediaries between God and me, that would be promising.

 11. Is it true, as some atheists argue that Buddhism's more peaceful doctrine propagates less violence and war than monotheistic religions with violent sacred texts?
11. Buddhism is surely peaceful, but still, it's a religion and ideology, and this means limits, it doesn't eliminate a war with self, with own emotions and so-called "bad side". There are tenths of thousands rules a buddhist should obey. This means, that there's a mistake somewhere. We can't solve everything by obeying rules, no matter how many. The only way is to do things with full consciousness, fully knowing of everything we're doing to us, to others, and to the world. Anything, done in full consciousness, is, as a side effect, ultimately good. And it needs only one rule. Buddhism may be less violent, but still, it's less than a human being can become.

 12. Does 'moderate religion' enable fundamentalism to continue? (That's another core militant assumption - also unproven.) Or, does it draw adherents away from fundamentalism and thereby weaken its negative effects?
12. Nope. People can't be at the same time moderately religional and fanatic. I mean, individuals. But fanatic and moderately believing communities can exist separately. Thus a moderate religion itself won't solve fanatism, justice and freedom will.

 13. What's the best way to advocate for needed changes - through aggressive attacks on religion or milder persuasion?13. Firstly, people should be fed, educated, given a shelter, and a medical care. Then they can believe in what they want and nobody will mind it. They will have too much to lose, to go to a bus stop, clad in elegant dynamite vest.


  14. Do the internal dynamics of religious communities suggest that extremism and fundamentalism are the primary source of religion's negative effects - or do these effects come from something fundamental about religious belief itself?14. I don't understand the question. Seems self-explaining to me.

 15. Would the eradication of religion lead to increased trauma, and/or decreased mental and physical health? If so, how should we prepare to address that problem as we work to eradicate religion?
15. Religion may be very deeply rooted in culture, removing a it can destroy the society. I mean cases like Islam, or tribal religions. Our consumer society wouldn't crash with a withdrawal of religion, maybe only some churches, but they could be sold to someone who would use and repair them. As you probably know by time, it's not necessary to remove the religion to solve the problems associated with it.

 

 

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.