Sin before sin?
Posted on: April 6, 2008 - 5:21am
Offline
Sin before sin?
Now the entire concept of christianity is based on the how god needed a blood sacrifice of his son in order to subside his wrath against us for eating the forbidden fruit. By sinning and disobeying him, god caused sin to enter the world, as to say the world was without sin prior to that event. How could adam and eve sin, if sin was not yet in the world? This can't be said to be a metaphor, because as i stated christianity is based on this concept.
"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed with no evidence." Christopher Hitchens
- Login to post comments
- Login to post comments
< religious 
if god is all knowing how is free will possible ? 
Wait , it's not funny ..... 
Now I remember why I stopped paying attention to you. You don't know your Bible well enough to defend it properly. In other words, you're a typical defender of your God.
Suffice it to say that your position has no basis in Scripture.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Are you kidding me? Jesus raised Himself. That's what makes His resurrection unique over any other resurrection. Jesus raised Himself, therefore conquering death. Being raised by someone else wouldn't do anything. Then He wouldn't have conquered death. How can you say that my position has no basis in Scripture when you clearly have no clue what the Bible says?
The definition of sin is "to go beyond a set boundary or limit" or "to miss the mark". Sin is going against God. If He says "don't murder" and you murder, that's sin. If He says "don't eat the fruit" and you eat the fruit, that's sin. The potential to sin was there because God gave them free will. They could choose to follow Him or choose to not follow Him. They went beyond the set boundary by eating the fruit, they went against God (they sinned).
"as to say the world was without sin prior to that event."
The world had yet to sin, it wasn't without the opportunity.
So, is God unable to give us free will without evil existing?
The opportunity to do evil comes from free will. If everybody followed God, there would be no evil. God didn't make evil. He gave people a choice. To follow Him or to not follow Him. Evil is a byproduct of not following God. People choosing not to follow Him and engage in evil activity is not His fault.
God gives us free will. What we choose to do with that is on us, not on Him.
You think I don't have a Scriptural position because you don't understand it. Jesus raised Himself from the dead. That's how He conquered death. That's what makes His resurrection unique.
j_day
You had plenty of time to set up an account so that you can post here
Set one up now if you want to continue with this discussion.
EDIT: I didnt mean to sound as if you cant post.
I meant that because you are not registered your posts have to be approved and moderators have to read and post your comments "manually" so please setup a password account
People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.
The only reference to a talking snake is in Genesis. No one else has documented a talking snake. No one currently living has claimed they have heard a snake talk except perhaps individuals in mental facilities. I'll go with the overwhelming evidence that snakes do not talk.
Of course you will. As it is unseen, unknown, and generally experienced by those in intense meditation I'll go with the fantasy dimension until you actually prove it's not.
Note - you have again decided to interpret these verses. The wording suggests strongly that they ate herbs for food. As in many things that are not said to occur in Genesis then I suppose since other people aren't excluded the rest of the world could have been filled with creations of Anu & Ki from Sumerian religions prove that is not true.
I am an Ex-Christian. As sufficient proof exists in the Bible for multiple gods as well as in ancient myths of the Canaanites it is a fair question. As the Jews do not concur with your view God is triune in fact they see such belief as idolatry it should be interesting to see you find Jewish writing supporting God is a triune. If you can't find such writing by Jewish non-Christian writers you have to explain the "us" in Genesis another way. Making the claim of the trinity here is not supported by the religion from which Christianity was derived. It is a major difference between your belief and that of Judaism. You can't make the claim of a trinity until you show how the Jews were in error and why after thousands of years of Jewish teaching monotheism the Christian Trinity is correct.
The Bible says plants on day 3 and Sun on day 4. I said this is problematic. You said The Sun is a product of God and not more powerful than him. You also said God can make the plants live as he breathed life into man.
Smoke and mirrors is my version of saying BS as it all is unsubstantiated. Please prove all of this please, not with Bible references either. Try using our dimension of reality for a change.
Of course you don't see a problem its that tunnel vision you have.
So there are a lot of things different in today's real world compared to the Land of Never Was in the Garden. My point was it had redundant watering. Note - You have again interpreted that mist watering and water being supplied for a river means the same.
____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
I'm going to enjoy this...
Acts 2:32
This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Acts 3:26
Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
Acts 4:10
Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
Acts 5:30
The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
Acts 13:23
Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:
Acts 13:33
God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Galatians 1:1
Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead)
I don't see anything about Jesus raising himself in any of these verses.
Somebody's off on their position and their Bible here and I don't think it's me.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Thank you for not answering me again man . This shows your knowledge and how my arguments are not a challenge to you ( end of sarcasm )
Warning I’m not a native English speaker.
http://downloads.khinsider.com/?u=281515 DDR and game sound track download
I think you misunderstood the question.
It's a 'yes' or 'no' question.
So, again, is God unable to give us free will without evil existing, yes or no?
He likes to dodge questions, this one.
<apologies for the thread jacking - I just had to show that this guy doesn't know what he's talking about.>
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Something that always warms my heart is seeing fundamentalist Christians so vehemently defend their beliefs and then seeing how they can't even agree with one another. The funniest part is when each one of them tells me that "Well, then that other so-called 'Christian' is wrong."
Here's a completely opposite take to free will from another ultra Christian:
So, is God responsible for every action of every human being? According to j_day, no. According to this guy, yes.
So, does God make people do evil things? According to j_day, no. According to this guy, yes.
So, does God create evil people? According to j_day, no. According to this guy, yes.
He even has Biblical 'proof.'
In the beginning the universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move. ~ Douglas Adams
Atheism Books.
Ouch.
So, j_day, how does it feel to get a spanking as an adult?
So my first guess is that you'll go on about the triune nature of the Christian god and say that just because the bible specifically mentions Jesus and god separately here doesn't mean they're to be considered separate entities, and that therefore through the power and mystery of your god, Jesus raised himself from the dead, in spite of the specific wording of those passages to the contrary.
My second guess is that you just won't come back. You'll brew up some personally acceptable excuse like "they just don't want to understand" or "forget it, I've got more important things to do". After all, it'd be too much for us to expect someone to admit that they made a mistake about something, right? I mean, that would only be the honest thing to do.
I hope my guess is wrong and he DOES come back. I'm distinctly curious about how s/he'll respond.
--
maybe if this sig is witty, someone will love me.
How does it feel to get a spanking as an adult?
It's wonderful if it's an attractive woman doing it.
It says "further information and a password have been sent to your e-mail", but I haven't received any e-mail from this site.
You're right. It was a misunderstanding on my part. Awhile ago I was talking with my brother-in-law about something loosely related and he mentioned Jesus raising Himself. What he meant was God raising Himself, and I took it as Jesus raising Jesus, not God the Father raising Jesus.
I guess I need to explain this slower. Free will is a voluntary decision. If you are chained up in a basement, only fed one thing and forced to type on this website, then I see why you don't understand what it is. If you have EVER made a choice on what to eat, what to wear or what internet site to go to, you exercised free will. You made a choice. Free will is making a choice. If you have more than one pair of clothes, you have made a voluntary decision on what to wear that day. You exercised free will. If you have ever bought anything from the store, you exercised free will. If you know how to walk, run and drive, you use free will when you decide how to get from one place to another. To say free will doesn't exist is to say that you have never ever made any type of decision in your entire life. If that's true, it's awesome that this is the only website that you can go to.
You couldn't tell from my answer? For evil not to exist, everyone would have to follow God. Since He gives free will to not follow Him, people have the opportunity to engage in evil behavior.
So the answer would be yes.
People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.
No, I always scan through spam before I delete it. Also, a reason I would find that doubtful is because I've never had a message from a site that I signed up for be marked as spam.
So, he is UNABLE to give us free will without evil existing.
Is he not all-powerful?
Awesome I love adhomingen attacks XD.
Maybe I need to give you some experimental evidence to make you ticking instead of playing semantics with you my friend .
1) Do you think bots have free will ? They are pretty smart and can make decisions however they are programmed and they for are unable to make real voluntary decisions (despite it looking like they are ) because the programmers programmed them .
2) Ling-Bots if you got into a discussion with one of them do you think they have free will since they are able to have a decent conversation with you like a human ?
3) The best prove ever is to see this free will you again have defined for a reaction or result not a actual concept so lets see , if something is following patterns and is predictable then it is deterministic if something isn’t its random .
Lets test this can you abandon god for no apparent reason ?
IF YES (you are random)
IF NO ( you are a deterministic robot )
Where is this voluntary decision since both answers are decisions/actions/reactions just like a reaction of a hydrogen atom.
Warning I’m not a native English speaker.
http://downloads.khinsider.com/?u=281515 DDR and game sound track download
I figured it was something like that - unfortunately it was after the Scripture bombing.
You still have the problem of a dead God raising himself (if you believe Jesus was God also).
If you don't think of Jesus as God but simply as his son, you're a polytheist but like to hide it behind the term "trinitarianism"
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Well, colour me pleasantly surprised. You beat my expectations. Well done!
--
maybe if this sig is witty, someone will love me.
To say that free will exists also denies the existence of an omniscient God. do you wish to do that.
Can one have free will if God has planned every step of your life (as many Christians claim)? You may not claim this so I'm not really sure where you stand.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
"IF YES (you are random)". Where do you get that from? "Where is this voluntary decision since both answers are decisions/actions/reactions/ just like a reaction of a hydrogen atom."
The voluntary decision is to follow God or not to follow God. Every person can choose to follow God or not to follow God.
Choice 1- follow God
Choice 2- don't follow God
Every person has two options. Your choice of which one of those is going to represent you is free will.
There's a difference between knowing what someone's going to choose and making them choose it. God knows what I'm going to choose, that doesn't mean He makes me choose it. It's not "God knows I'm going to eat pizza tomorrow, so I have to eat pizza tomorrow" it's "I'm going to eat pizza tomorrow, and God knows that's what I'm going to eat."
I think people confuse the word "plan" with the word "control". (not necessarily you, but a lot of people). God has a plan for everyone. That doesn't mean He controls you to make it come true. For example (and it's not perfect, but it gives a better idea of what I'm saying), let's say you are the coach of the Denver Nuggets and you have decided that your players have free will. Allen Iverson has played shooting guard his whole life. He's offense-oriented and really likes taking 25 shots/night. But as the coach, you think it would be better to move him to point guard. The offense would flow better and it would open up opportunities for his teammates. The coaches plan may be for Iverson to play point guard because he knows that he's their best passer and they would play better if he switched positions, however Iverson has free will and can choose to stay at shooting guard if he likes.
God's plan is the most ideal way your life could play out. Michael Jordan was obviously meant to play basketball. He didn't just get there by work ethic, the man was naturally gifted to put the ball into the basket. Imagine if he had never played basketball and pursued baseball right out of high school. Could he still have been productive if he worked hard at it for that long? Probably. He's a natural athlete and if he pursued it for longer than a couple of years, there's a chance he could have been a decent baseball player. But he was meant to play basketball. That's how it is for every person. You could choose to do whatever you want, and still be successful at it. But you will be more successful if you do what you were made to do.
Follow which god? Ummm But I AM god, just like Jesus?Buddha said. Ohhhhh, and that goddess last night was yelling "oh god, oh god" ..... Yup that's me .....
Here's Pat Condell about that devil god of abraham,
"God the psycho"
http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=119389495&blogID=354046291
Interesting essay below video .....
Atheism Books.
I will repeat and expand on my question, in case you missed it.
So, you're saying that God is UNABLE to give humans the ability to choose for ourselves without also creating evil. You might keep saying that evil is an intrinsic and inseparable part of free will but for an omnipotent being, nothing is inseparable.
Or... is he not all-powerful?
Ummm , Hey j , so there really is a HELL ? Do the naughty aliens go there too ? Was Jesus there to to save them too ? Sure why not , Jesus and god can do anything ....
Atheism Books.
LOL Man I love the way you ignored the test
I made special nice numbers like 1) 2) 3) so you can easy tipe your answers in without quoting like 1) NO 2) NO 3) YES . Whoever you know maybe I need to make a better example because still your magic definition of “Free Will” is just a synonym for result or actions I don’t know if you realize this. Maybe you care to answer the test OK ?
THE TEST :
1) Do you think bots have free will ? They are pretty smart and can make decisions however they are programmed and they for are unable to make real voluntary decisions (despite it looking like they are ) because the programmers programmed them .
2) Ling-Bots if you got into a discussion with one of them do you think they have free will since they are able to have a decent conversation with you like a human ?
3) The best prove ever is to see this free will you again have defined for a reaction or result not a actual concept so lets see , if something is following patterns and is predictable then it is deterministic if something isn’t its random .
Lets test this can you abandon god for no apparent reason ?
IF YES (you are random)
IF NO ( you are a deterministic robot )
Your definition of "Free will " is just a synonym for result , outcome or reaction
Warning I’m not a native English speaker.
http://downloads.khinsider.com/?u=281515 DDR and game sound track download
Actually, look up "free will" in a thesaurus (http://thesaurus.reference.com/) and there are no synonyms. Free will is the existence of at least two options and freely being able to choose one. Result and Outcome are what option you choose. Reaction is how you feel about the options or the outcomes.
1. You answered your own question. They are programmed, therefore they don't really have a decision. The key word is voluntary.
2. Same thing as number one. The quality level of programming doesn't account for free will.
3. If you have free will to follow God, you have free will to not follow God. So the answer would be yes.
This is the last time I explain this, if you don't understand, so be it. Free will is having at least two options and having a voluntary decision to choose one.
Here's an example:
You own a pair of shorts and a pair of pants.
Free will- you get to choose which one you want to wear today
Result/Outcome- you wear pants
Reaction- happy because it's cold outside
Your evidence against free will is bots that don't have it. People aren't bots. You want evidence that free will exists? Examine your life and think back to a voluntary decision you have made. If you have never made a decision of any kind, and you have only had one option for every situation, then I guess free will doesn't exist. However I highly doubt that because you have two options right now: understand what I'm saying and don't respond, or think of some outrageous example of non-humans not having free will and respond. No matter what you choose, you will be exercising free will. Since you'll be exercising it no matter what, it's probably not best to say that it doesn't exist.
I see I’m pushing your buttons (Were is all the hate coming from the theists ? theism = hate
) 
and thanks for answering the test cha-ching atheism time. The problem is I’m understanding the apologists for free will and there are self contradictory , meaningless smoke and mirrors like a square circle you can say it however it’s a impossibility.
A rok has some possible states of existence therefore a rok has free will congratulations.
Actually, look up "free will" in a thesaurus (http://thesaurus.reference.com/) and there are no synonyms. Free will is the existence of at least two options
A rok has some possible states of existence therefore a rok has free will congratulations.
HOW ?????? Howe is this magic step performed ?
HOW ?????? Answer this and you get 2 possibilities randomness or determinism .
You fail look up the word reaction in a dictionary professor and realize your failure reaction means the process between a impute and a outcome like in chemical reaction mister “look up in the dictionary”.
O YES YES YES this is the best result ever I was waiting for it congratulations based on this test you have shown your contradictions . You see the only difference between a human and a bot is the fact that bots are les sophisticated then humans however there are based on similar principals and in the end of the 21 century we will see great AI . In the near future we can model and simulate a human brain and tell reaction X in region A and reaction Z in region B make your decision , where is your “free will” now !?
Actually most Christians can be replaced with bots and no one will notice the difference and in some cases people can swere that the human Christian bechaves like a brainless robot while the ling-bot is the human.
Howe dos it feel knowing that the latest bots can replace you and have the same mental compatibilities like you and would answer even better and smarter then you ? Your inability to get deep into a question is characteristic of a bot , are you a bot ?
Free will like a flat earth is shown in the bible however with the passage of time its going to be only a ridicules memory of the past.
Warning I’m not a native English speaker.
http://downloads.khinsider.com/?u=281515 DDR and game sound track download