How has theism/theists damaged your life? What other personal experiences have you had with theism?

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How has theism/theists damaged your life? What other personal experiences have you had with theism?

This is a big question i've been thinking a lot about myself lately.  I'd like to hear what the RRS community has to say about this question. I couldnt seem to find anywhere on RRS if this thread already existed so if I missed it I apologize.  Ill start this off with what I can think of right off.

 

1. Prevented me from learning something more useful in life...instead of learning math and science I was pushed into a book of myths which really do me no good in my chosen field of today.

2. Weak relations with close family members

3. Source of intense argument and uncessary verbal violence and abuse

4. Constant worry at a young age that I was going to hell and a deep fear of death (in short elevated stress levels)

5. Prevented me from having a healthy social life because of my slowly developing atheism

 

Other experiences I can think of pertaining to theism are as follows which initially put me on the path to atheism

1. A preacher once said “There are some very moral people who are in hell.”

 

2. When I was very young, about 7 or 8, I asked my mother the question where did god come from? The answer was “You don’t ask questions like that”. Thus started my journey to search for an answer and exploring my questioning nature.  I didnt let my curoisty be destroyed by these adults who always seemed to push my questions aside. 

   

3. I have a cousin who has a genetic disorder, downs syndrome.  It is very easy to determine that something is wrong with his genes just by talking and looking at him.  This disorder is repeatable and genetic tests have identified its concrete cause for a long time.  If genetic disorders can happen then why could a genetic malfunction not be the cause of someone being a homosexual, I asked myself? 

 

4. Someone close to me started going back to church long ago only because her mother died.  She said it was a sign from god to do so.  I asked myself Why would god have to be so cruel to get someone to believe in him? He is god surely he could think of a better way.

 

5.  Christians/thesists sometimes say that god determines when people die.  I knew one of the sweetest kindest girls I have ever met whose parents and her brother were all killed in the same year in separate accidents.  If god is that cruel to someone like that, I’m not sure how anyone would want anything to do with him. 

 

Doubt is the root of all wisdom. - Unknown

Knowing will come from the practice of understanding - Myself


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I'm a little loath to

I'm a little loath to answer, because I hate feeding the christian "you're atheist because someone hurt you' theme. But these happened after I de-converted anyway.

  • Also had a sub standard science/ overall education due to attending religious schools where everything was poisoned with biblical wisdom. Actually had a teacher who said, 'I don't care if you walk out this class at the end of the year not knowing how to do a sum, as long as I have given you jesus.'
  • Intense fear of hell and unnecessary stress and worry at young ages
  • Wasting a lot of time doing stupid religious stuff.
  • Having friendships deteriorate or completely end when I became atheist, having theists insult me just for it, and having my great christian friends tell lies about me.
  • Having to live a lie because coming out as atheist to my family scares me to death. In turn this makes me bitter towards my parents for indoctrinating me and has led to me just wanting to get away from them.

Maybe I'll add some more stuff later..

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

dudeofthemoment wrote:
This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.

Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.


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Theists keep denying me ,

  Theists keep denying me , you know , me GAWED  .... Me Jesus  ... me Christ .... me Buddha        


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I spent a significant

I spent a significant portion of my life attributing personal circumstances in life to superstition.

My intellectual growth was exchanged for incalculable hours, days all wasted on a ridiculous myth.

Theism has destroyed any chance for a meaningful relationship with any of my family members. 

- I had a mother who used to say this often to me throughout childhood...

"I pray to god that if you're not going to grow up to serve him, he should just go ahead and take you home now".

I think about that whenever someone gets offended by theism being likened  to mental illness.

 

 

 

"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
George Orwell


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 When I was a kid, I was

 When I was a kid, I was put into Sunday school, which just convinced me that adults were crazy.

Turns out I was right! So I don't know if that harmed me, or just gave me a heads-up.

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HisWillness wrote: When I

HisWillness wrote:

 When I was a kid, I was put into Sunday school, which just convinced me that adults were crazy.

Turns out I was right! So I don't know if that harmed me, or just gave me a heads-up.

 

I think you're lucky that you discovered this when you were a kid.  I didn't have the "nerve" to de-convert until I was in college.  It was the experience of meeting so many new and diverse kinds of people that made me open my eyes.  Growing up in a small town kinda polarized my view of the world, and I just didn't know any better.

My wife finally now has accepted her de-conversion... it took her some time to see my point of view, and while it didn't really harm our marriage (she wasn't really an "active" Catholic), I could see that it would eventually become an issue, once we had kids of our own.  During that time, I would still get roped into going to church with her and her parents.  She basically was going because they were going...  And it was at one of these sermons, while everyone was standing, kneeling, sitting, standing, sitting, kneeling, praying, etc, I leaned over to her and said "You know, this really resembles a cult."  She snapped her head with a shocked look on her face, and whispered, "You know, you're right."  That was her moment of revelation.

I know she's still timid to say she's an atheist, but she knows it.  Like what was mentioned on this site about the definition of atheism, I think it's too "strong" for her, even though she fits the definition.  I suppose it's the social demonization of that word that just doesn't sit well with her.  To be honest, it still hasn't settled with me either Eye-wink

 


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One thing that I've learned

One thing that I've learned since I've broken away from christianity is that I'm not even aware of all the ways that theism has impacted me.  I'm constantly discovering thought patterns, situations, etc that make me realize just how much my early religious upbringing has affected me.  Here are some of the things that I am aware of:

 

1.  Relations with the opposite sex:  Sex is bad, so of course being in situations where you might possibly be tempted to have sex is bad.  This meant that I was discouraged from dating, going to dances, etc while in HS.  This carried on to college where I dated one girl the entire time even though (in hindsight) we weren't a good match.  I'm married now, and thankfully I met a woman who was patient with my early fumblings and lack of social skills in a variety of romantic areas.

 

2.  Strained relations with my family:  Oddly enough, while I have broken away from the catholic church my brother has been drawn toward it, so much so that he is giving serious thought to becoming a monk.  I can barely talk to him now without telling what an idiot he is.  Of course, my parents are all for it, so they don't help.

 

3.  My science background is limited:  I went to private, catholic schools k-8.  When I went to public HS I found that I was quite far behind my peers in math and science.  Fortunately I have pretty solid language skills that helped me compensate.  I'm now an English teacher, but I often wonder if I would have gone in a different direction if my education hadn't been so lopsided early on. 

 

These are the big ones, but, as I've said, I'm constantly discovering things about myself and my personality that were shaped by my early religious upbringing.

I dare do all that may become a man-Who dares more is none


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D20DM wrote:1. Relations

D20DM wrote:

1.  Relations with the opposite sex:  Sex is bad, so of course being in situations where you might possibly be tempted to have sex is bad.  This meant that I was discouraged from dating, going to dances, etc while in HS.  This carried on to college where I dated one girl the entire time even though (in hindsight) we weren't a good match.  I'm married now, and thankfully I met a woman who was patient with my early fumblings and lack of social skills in a variety of romantic areas.

 

Agreed! In my school girls had to have their knees covered, I think there was also a rule about neckbones but that wasn't as strictly enforced. Then there was the famous 6 inch rule-pretty self explanatory. Girls and boys stay at least six inched away. Combined with the usual abstinecne stuff, and I think I have some messed up intimacy and relationship issues. Me and girls doesn't really work. I've barely started to wrap my head around the notion of pre-martial sex, and I'm kinda uncomfortable with physical contact at times. Glad you found a good woman though!

 

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

dudeofthemoment wrote:
This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.

Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.


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D20DM wrote:Agreed! In my

D20DM wrote:

Agreed! In my school girls had to have their knees covered, I think there was also a rule about neckbones but that wasn't as strictly enforced. Then there was the famous 6 inch rule-pretty self explanatory. Girls and boys stay at least six inched away. Combined with the usual abstinecne stuff, and I think I have some messed up intimacy and relationship issues. Me and girls doesn't really work. I've barely started to wrap my head around the notion of pre-martial sex, and I'm kinda uncomfortable with physical contact at times. Glad you found a good woman though!

 

 

This may be the one issue that theists (Christians specifically) use to convince everyone else that atheists are evil Eye-wink  "They're atheists only because they want to forn-i-cate with everyone else!"

What we find liberating, they see as the "lazy" path, or blatant defiance towards god.  We all know that Christians like sex just as much as an atheist, so they just need to grow up.  They get all bent out of shape because they felt they had to wait until they said "I do" in front of some guy in a robe, before it was "OK" in god's eyes.  Whatevah...

 

 


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ryandinan wrote: This may

ryandinan wrote:

 

This may be the one issue that theists (Christians specifically) use to convince everyone else that atheists are evil Eye-wink  "They're atheists only because they want to forn-i-cate with everyone else!"

What we find liberating, they see as the "lazy" path, or blatant defiance towards god.  We all know that Christians like sex just as much as an atheist, so they just need to grow up.  They get all bent out of shape because they felt they had to wait until they said "I do" in front of some guy in a robe, before it was "OK" in god's eyes.  Whatevah...

 

 

I'll admit, I still find pre-martial sex hard to fathom. It's amazing how drilled into me it was. It's like a mental block. Sex=marriage. Might be a while before I get over that one. Funny thing is, I know christians who are fornicating. I'm still the moraless atheist though

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

dudeofthemoment wrote:
This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.

Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.


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Well, I didn't need to go

Well, I didn't need to go through any 'de-conversion', and my family is by and large atheistic (even a ways into my ancestry, the early generations of my family were largely entreprenuers and hard workers from Europe, coming over to North America to get their hands dirty. As my grandparents still occasionally say, "Church? Good grief - who's got bloody time for Church when there's a parcel of land to keep in shape and food to put on the table?&quotEye-wink.

On the other hand, I've experienced all kinds of financial damage in terms of refusal for or non-preferential career promotion simply because I didn't accept invites to Church gatherings/mass from an employer or supervisor. It's not what you know in the world of business, it's whether or not you know about Jesus (in my own experience).

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"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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I personally dislike

I personally dislike religion because it interferes to much with people's daily lives. I can't go a day without arguing with someone at my high school about the existence of God, or how I'm going to hell, etc. It's irritating. They never want to even understand the awesomeness that is life, but just to die... It's very depressing. I'm just glad both my parents are atheists. That's helped a lot, getting me through the day.

Cheers!

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I was harassed at a prior

I was harassed at a prior job - leaflets on my desk, emails quoting scripture, a few attempts to prevent me from getting my work done - after it was discovered that I had a girlfriend.

That girlfriend left me soon after her extended family started pressuring her to get Christian counseling.

Prior to all that, my family pretty much turned their back on me for daring to work at a women's clinic that provided abortion services.

Plus all the leftovers of being raised in a Catholic home: Self-repressed sex, fear of dying, irrational fear of hell, etc.

Chris Hitchens is right. Religion poisons everything.

"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray


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shasocastris wrote:I

shasocastris wrote:

I personally dislike religion because it interferes to much with people's daily lives. I can't go a day without arguing with someone at my high school about the existence of God, or how I'm going to hell, etc. It's irritating. They never want to even understand the awesomeness that is life, but just to die... It's very depressing. I'm just glad both my parents are atheists. That's helped a lot, getting me through the day.

Cheers!

 

shasocastris & Kevin

 

If you wouldn't mind sharing, could you possibly tell me a bit about what it was being raised atheist?  As a fairly new father (a 3 year old boy and 8 month old girl), my wife and I are a bit uncertain what to do about the subject of religion, once they hit an age where they start asking questions, or getting flak from other kids/teachers at school.  "Why don't we go to church like Tommy, daddy?" "Why do people believe in god?"  "Do you believe in god?"  "Why not?  Tommy's dad does."

I'm not sure how to answer these questions, when they may not be ready to understand the science and reasoning behind atheism.  On the flip side, I want them to be educated about religions, while avoiding the easy trap of becoming indoctrinated in a religion, simply because their minds are young and susceptible to believing that kind of "stuff".  After all, it's much easier for a child's mind to accept a magical god, as it requires no knowledge or understanding of science or logic.

Just curious if you can give any insight, and if you think your parents approached it in a good way.

I happened to be raised Baptist from a very young age (Baptized at 5 years old, because I thought that's what they wanted me to do).  I do remember that my mom slowly stopped taking us to church, as she lost interest in the church... and eventually quit altogether, when I was around 9 or 10.  I never really asked why we stopped.  The only time I would go to church after that, was if I happened to stay at a friends house over the weekend, and I would end up going with them.  I just went because... never got anything out of it.  In fact, it was torture.  But I never stopped believing in god, until I was around 19 (in college).

I'd like to spare my kids this difficult transition, if possible, while making sure they don't mock, or look down on anyone that does happen to believe in god.... to have respectful disagreement Eye-wink

 

Thanks!


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Theistic Malfeasance

For me, little directly. The usual harassment and condecending BS...

But, long after I had solidified myself as an atheist, my grandmother passed away. It fell on me to go through her things and divide them amongst the family. This was the lady who had raised me. She had been a tough old bird, very backwoods, very old fashioned but cool in her own way. What can you say about someone who delivered two of her own babies alone, worked as a logger, a moonshiner and I suspect as a few other things less savory (hey, no one is BORN old)... I loved her very much.

Her personal things were few, she had spent the last year in a hospital, and she never had much to begin with. I did the usual nostalgic trip through the old photos, carefully packed her prized knick knacks and collectables for my sisters. Then I found the stuff that pissed me off, folded up in her old wornout bible. It seems that she had been spending much of her meager money on televangelistic scams. She had the little prayer cards, the magic pictures of jesus (you know, the ones where the eyes seem to follow you) the prayer cloths (strips of cheap fabric) and all those damned form letters thanking her for her love donations (to half a dozen of these bastards) and assuring her that all her problems, family, health, financial whould be fixed if she just sent off for their next piece of bogus shit, and of course, enclosed a generous donation. This woman lived entirely on Social Security. I burned the crap in her old wood stove, packed up the rest and left.

 

LC

Christianity: A disgusting middle eastern blood cult, based in human sacrifice, with sacraments of cannibalism and vampirism, whose highest icon is of a near naked man hanging in torment from a device of torture.


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Quote:If you wouldn't mind

Quote:
If you wouldn't mind sharing, could you possibly tell me a bit about what it was being raised atheist?  As a fairly new father (a 3 year old boy and 8 month old girl), my wife and I are a bit uncertain what to do about the subject of religion, once they hit an age where they start asking questions, or getting flak from other kids/teachers at school.  "Why don't we go to church like Tommy, daddy?" "Why do people believe in god?"  "Do you believe in god?"  "Why not?  Tommy's dad does."

I'm not sure how to answer these questions, when they may not be ready to understand the science and reasoning behind atheism.  On the flip side, I want them to be educated about religions, while avoiding the easy trap of becoming indoctrinated in a religion, simply because their minds are young and susceptible to believing that kind of "stuff".  After all, it's much easier for a child's mind to accept a magical god, as it requires no knowledge or understanding of science or logic.

Just curious if you can give any insight, and if you think your parents approached it in a good way.

I happened to be raised Baptist from a very young age (Baptized at 5 years old, because I thought that's what they wanted me to do).  I do remember that my mom slowly stopped taking us to church, as she lost interest in the church... and eventually quit altogether, when I was around 9 or 10.  I never really asked why we stopped.  The only time I would go to church after that, was if I happened to stay at a friends house over the weekend, and I would end up going with them.  I just went because... never got anything out of it.  In fact, it was torture.  But I never stopped believing in god, until I was around 19 (in college).

I'd like to spare my kids this difficult transition, if possible, while making sure they don't mock, or look down on anyone that does happen to believe in god.... to have respectful disagreement

...Whew. This is a tough one. A disclaimer, first:

I'm probably the last guy on the planet to ask for parental advice. Children aren't part of my future plans, at least for the time being, largely because I'm a pretty shit leader and worse examplary figure (though part of it also stems from personal fears that the world is going to be a much different place, and not for the better, in just a few years).

So, that being said...

I think Harris nails it right on the head when he says, "Nobody is raised to 'be an atheist'; some people simply aren't raised to be religious,". My parents didn't discuss religion in any way, shape or form when I was young. We lived rurally, and there was just shit to be done. We grew our own food, assisted some of our extended family in raising livestock and I, personally, had medical issues (born with a gaping hole in my diaphragm, so my organs were in positions of disarray at birth. Emergency surgery prevented any serious complications, but also caused ulcers that haunted my down the road until they were finally laid to rest in my elementary years) to be taken care of. I had an absolutely vivid imagination from an early age, and while I consider this a real boon to my existence now, it caused my unending torment in the form of nightmares and an associated deep-seated fear of the dark (something of a problem when one lives in a rural community and often commutes between family member's houses during the night on errands).

My first 'introduction' to everyone's good friend Jesus Christ (that I recall. I'm sure I must've heard Christian ramblings before, but probably just dismissed them), perhaps with fateful coincidence, happened to be when I was at a sleepover at a friend's house. We were walking from some corrals where we'd been playing with some of the livestock to his house, after the sun had unexpectedly set. I became a big fraidy-cat and insisted he turn-on the flashlight he had because the trees were scary, and he told me not to worry about the dark because his dad told him Jesus protected the farm. Of course, he wasn't an adult with real 'knowledge' about Jesus - just a fellow child largely ignorant of what he'd been taught. So he pulled a picture of Jesus out of his pocket to show me.

To say the least, the photo of a bearded guy in a robe didn't exactly breed confidence in me. I asked if my friend had seen the Jesus guy around. He said he hadn't. I asked him what if he'd been eaten by the monster, and couldn't protect the farm anymore. My friend slowed-down and asked me 'the big one', "...Monster?"

I described in vivid detail my monster (I'm sure everyone has their own personal childhood monster. Err... right?). The big, terrible, black thing with a big hat and long coat that tried to get me through my window some nights. Enter the sudden, somewhat hysterical, random pieces of speculation: What if the monster followed me from home, where my bed couldn't protect me? What if it had eaten Jesus? What if now that Jesus was gone, the trees could come and get us? Worse yet: what if the monster was still outside, with us, and it wanted to eat us next?

One backwards glance at some trees in the distance, and one perfeclty benign motion of a branch later, and any faith my friend had in Jesus apparently vanished: we both ran screaming to his house.

After that, any further mention of God or Jesus when I was young I just associated with the sleepover incident. When I was so naive, I just considered such figures of faith inconsequential next to the monsters luring in the dark and my all-important night light that likely drove my parents nuts. As I matured, the association resulted in Jesus being ruled just as fantastical as my supernatural tormentors, and worthy of the same amount of my time and energy. Then came my later understanding of measuring the world through evidence and my rational reasons for maintaining an atheistic view of the world.

So, in hindsight... you should encourage your children to be afraid of monsters that live in the dark, because that sort of irrational belief will trump any theological one? Sticking out tongue

I warned you not to read here for advice.

Seriously, though, my parents took no active role in 'promoting' atheism to me. We were an atheistic family largely on practical grounds, so promoting any kind of belief or non-belief simply wasn't on the agenda. I don't know if this was a good thing ora bad thing; I just know how I wound-up.

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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My father is atheist,

My father is atheist, ex member of a Communist Party, so his opinion on the religion was pretty clear at the time. I remember the middle 90's, he said something like: "You will find your way when you will grow up". But he and my mother divorced before i grew up.. and my mother married a sicilian fanatic chatolic (someone like Bin Laden, but in the chatolic wing) who forced me to baptism in 1998, in Rome. But since a few months in the past i am officially de-baptized, un-baptized? (im not even sure i can translate it), which is possible thanks to some complicated and extreeeeeeeeemly long bureaucratic procedures allowed by the Italian laws on privacy, it isn't a cerimony.. just a mark on the archives. Technically.. i entered a church 2 times in my life: Baptism and "de-baptism". I never believed in god, honestly.


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I had to go to "Sunday"

I had to go to "Sunday" school on Saturday morning....missed all my favorite cartoons.  It sucked!

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theevolvedone wrote: 3. I

theevolvedone wrote:

3. I have a cousin who has a genetic disorder, downs syndrome.  It is very easy to determine that something is wrong with his genes just by talking and looking at him.  This disorder is repeatable and genetic tests have identified its concrete cause for a long time.  If genetic disorders can happen then why could a genetic malfunction not be the cause of someone being a homosexual, I asked myself? 

 

Urhm.  I'm surprised no one talked about this.  We have a number of homosexuals on the board.  I once wondered about the causes of homosexuals myself once.  So I studied the information that had been gathered by specialists studying it. 

I'm very big into evolution so this type of thing was within my field of interests.  The conclusion that I came to is that homosexuality is not a genetic malfunction.  Rather it appears that it is simply a genetic variation in...what around 8% of humanity that actually assists in the overall survival of the human species in some way.  How exactly, I'm not sure.  And it may not even help in a society as technologically advanced as a lot of the countries are now-a-days.  However, back when we lived in tribes it was beneficial to have a few extra adults around to help out that were not producing more children to take care of.  Thus why the genetic trait that creates homosexuals exists within our species.

I also came to the conclusion that trying to eliminate homosexuality will remove a possible important human genetic variation.  That is the last thing we would want to do if we wanted to ensure the best possible chance of the survival of humanity.

 

"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci


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Even though I was raised in

Even though I was raised in catholic family, I never really was a good Catholic even when I believed in god. I found going to church boring and so i just turned auto-mode on, and just do whatever I had with my mind flowing somewhere else.

Even though i am atheist for a 4-5 years now and i never felt any religion abuse. I still hate all the religions and religious people very much, i just can't do anything else, i don't know why.

Actually I can't even tell how i became an atheist. It just happened and i can't tell the exact time when i de-converted.

I must have became from bad Catholic, to atheist and then to militant atheist.


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Fanas wrote:I still hate all

Fanas wrote:

I still hate all the religions and religious people very much, i just can't do anything else, i don't know why.

I must have became from bad Catholic, to atheist and then to militant atheist.

 

Fanas,

If you hold that much anger towards those of religious faith, perhaps you need to re-evaluate if you've suffered any negative effects from being raised Catholic.  If anything, you should be sympathetic towards them, as you were once in their shoes.

I do understand that sometimes conversations between atheists and theists can get heated, but that's not the same thing as simply hating them for their stranglehold on their religious belief.

I do think that most religious people want to be good, and actually are decent people.  It's just that their motivation - the fear of being dealt god's wrath - is fundamentally flawed... in our opinion.

The only time religious people bother me, is when they try to push it on me, or when I see crazy shit like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUeoem1gR3s


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Religion theism is a big

 Religion theism is a big reason why they have allowed the recent murder of a million plus Iraq's etc .... after all, there is an "after life", so no biggy  .....    Kill that god, not people. Their God's Israel and the chosen ones is another killing idea ..... and atheist Jesus still weeps (me) ..... Theism (religion) is OBVIOUSLY devil shit ..... of wrong thinking.      

Being a Xain is being a Pauline , and anti Jesus. Jesus was a gnostic atheistic buddhist philosophy that basically lost. My atheistic Jesus is against Xain voodoo Paul.   


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ryandinan wrote:Fanas

ryandinan wrote:

Fanas wrote:

I still hate all the religions and religious people very much, i just can't do anything else, i don't know why.

I must have became from bad Catholic, to atheist and then to militant atheist.

 

Fanas,

If you hold that much anger towards those of religious faith, perhaps you need to re-evaluate if you've suffered any negative effects from being raised Catholic.  If anything, you should be sympathetic towards them, as you were once in their shoes.

I do understand that sometimes conversations between atheists and theists can get heated, but that's not the same thing as simply hating them for their stranglehold on their religious belief.

I do think that most religious people want to be good, and actually are decent people.  It's just that their motivation - the fear of being dealt god's wrath - is fundamentally flawed... in our opinion.

The only time religious people bother me, is when they try to push it on me, or when I see crazy shit like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUeoem1gR3s

 

Well i know what they are doing, so i hate in advance.

Actually if you are teaching your child to become religious then i already hate you.

Works something like that. Because child abuse is not a good thing.


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Fanas wrote: Well i know

Fanas wrote:

 

Well i know what they are doing, so i hate in advance.

Actually if you are teaching your child to become religious then i already hate you.

Works something like that. Because child abuse is not a good thing.

 

Smiling

Fanas, I never said I wanted to teach my kids to become religious.  I DID say I want them to be educated about religion.  Very different things.  Look at Rook Hawkins here.  He's an atheist, but very educated on the Bible and other religions.

Besides, I wouldn't go as far as to say that raising your children with a religion is child abuse.  It would totally depend on the intent of the parent(s).  I think that the vast majority of religious parents do so, because they truly feel it's the right thing to do for their kids... not some sort of punishment.  Little do they realize, the unfair restraints it places in their lives, their way of thinking, and their entire worldview.  I think a better term to use would be "ignorant brainwashing".  The parents are brainwashed, so they don't know any better.  They're asleep.


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ryandinan wrote:Fanas

ryandinan wrote:

Fanas wrote:

 

Well i know what they are doing, so i hate in advance.

Actually if you are teaching your child to become religious then i already hate you.

Works something like that. Because child abuse is not a good thing.

 

Smiling

Fanas, I never said I wanted to teach my kids to become religious.  I DID say I want them to be educated about religion.  Very different things.  Look at Rook Hawkins here.  He's an atheist, but very educated on the Bible and other religions.

Besides, I wouldn't go as far as to say that raising your children with a religion is child abuse.  It would totally depend on the intent of the parent(s).  I think that the vast majority of religious parents do so, because they truly feel it's the right thing to do for their kids... not some sort of punishment.  Little do they realize, the unfair restraints it places in their lives, their way of thinking, and their entire worldview.  I think a better term to use would be "ignorant brainwashing".  The parents are brainwashed, so they don't know any better.  They're asleep.

 

Someone could feel that raping your children is the right thing to do, but that doesn't make it so.


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Watcher wrote:  Rather it

Watcher wrote:

  Rather it appears that it is simply a genetic variation in...what around 8% of humanity that actually assists in the overall survival of the human species in some way.  How exactly, I'm not sure. 

This mutation enables the human species to throw some truly fabulous weddings.

 

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


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Fanas wrote: Someone could

Fanas wrote:

 

Someone could feel that raping your children is the right thing to do, but that doesn't make it so.

 

Fanas,

If you want to draw an analogy such as that, and actually believe it's a good one, then I'm just going to do you a favor, and pretend you never said it.

Educating my kids about religion (which is different than raising them to be religious), is not a bad thing - certainly not even in the same universe as rape.  I think that most people would agree, that just because you don't agree with the subject matter, doesn't mean you shouldn't consider learning what it is all about.  Since religion is permanently etched into the history of mankind - regardless if in 300 years religion is nearly gone - people will still be learning about it - just like how we study Greek and Roman mythology now.  You didn't believe that stuff  growing up, but I'm sure you found it interesting.  Same thing.

 

 

 


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..

How does it come, that people are so strongly religional? Is it caused by merging together a politics and Church? A religion, given with a desire for organization, power and rule?
Here's quite a lot of christians, as everywhere, but they're like mostly for themselves. Like they wouldn't be used to merging together a worldly and heavenly things. At schools, almost nobody propagates a religion, I had it in a 1st and 2nd class at Polish school I attended at this time (Poles are strongly religional) but it wasn't very orthodox and dogmatic, but relatively user-friendly, as for children, you know. On the rest of (different) elementary school I haven't noticed any religional influence.
At middle school, I knew guys, which I had no idea they're christians, and if there were even any atheists, they didn't show up at all. I would guess that about 70% of people there had no opinion on the great questions of life and universe, atheistic or not, I would guess they would show up as agnostics or naturalists if anyone would ask them.

A religional discussion at school is a thing unknown to me. Once, on a local small religional festival at the end of the summer, one a neighbour had a talk with me if I'm aware of God (because people around knows that my family is something like suspicious pagans and runaways from religion) but I handled the conversation so, that we would basically agree with each other. Also, I don't remember being ever discriminated by christians or anyone, by my (non-)religional orientation. Probably people doesn't take it so seriously here. (except of Jehova's witnesses, they lurk here just as everywhere on the world)
I was never factically a christian, though I was raised as one, but both parents were long ago oriented towards something like New Age spirituality, so it didn't went from a heart, I guess. Though I attended Sunday school as all kids around, it was mainly because of relationships with neighbours and social contacts for us, kids.

It is terrifying, how creationism and evolution fights for souls of children. I wasn't ever taught the creationism, and there wasn't any strong emphasizing of evolution at schools, just facts about nature, biology and archeology. I just had read books about dinosaurs, I had always at home a big book with nicely illustrated things like cambrium, carbon, jura, pleistocen, paleolit, neolit, various animals, monsters, insects, plants, algae, milliards of years in such a detail. How can a creationistic vague description of "seven days" even face anything like this? How can creationists expect a success, in some cases even achieve it? I guess it's by removing a children's ability to think, by mental and spiritual abuse.  In fact, if there is anything like God, it must be completely in harmony with science, facts and intelligent way of doing things. Revealing a science would be revealing God's creations, thus getting known with God. In Biblic times, there was practically no science and this is why we shouldn't rely on Biblic description of God. World was small and simple, thus God was small and simple-minded.
I don't say it's everything clear with evolution, it on greater scale it doesn't resemble Darwin's model, and abiogenesis is too unprobable to actually work by itself, but it's good as a start.

I don't say the confidence in existence of things greater than we are is foolish - I have experienced enough to have this confidence (or even certainity). I can be wrong or unprecise in interpretation, in details, but not in basic empirical reasons for my confidence, which happened and happens every while, and can't be undone or refuted. Paradigms like mine are sometimes also referred to as a religion. Why not, such a religion may give a great freedom of mind, but organized religion is  slavery. Priests replaced the truth for a dogma.
 

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.


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ryandinan wrote:Fanas

ryandinan wrote:

Fanas wrote:

 

Someone could feel that raping your children is the right thing to do, but that doesn't make it so.

 

Fanas,

If you want to draw an analogy such as that, and actually believe it's a good one, then I'm just going to do you a favor, and pretend you never said it.

Educating my kids about religion (which is different than raising them to be religious), is not a bad thing - certainly not even in the same universe as rape.  I think that most people would agree, that just because you don't agree with the subject matter, doesn't mean you shouldn't consider learning what it is all about.  Since religion is permanently etched into the history of mankind - regardless if in 300 years religion is nearly gone - people will still be learning about it - just like how we study Greek and Roman mythology now.  You didn't believe that stuff  growing up, but I'm sure you found it interesting.  Same thing.

 

 

 

 

You didn't understand me. You could teach your kids about religion as long as you don't indoctrinate them.


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Luminon wrote:How does it

Luminon wrote:

How does it come, that people are so strongly religional? Is it caused by merging together a politics and Church? A religion, given with a desire for organization, power and rule?
Here's quite a lot of christians, as everywhere, but they're like mostly for themselves. Like they wouldn't be used to merging together a worldly and heavenly things. At schools, almost nobody propagates a religion, I had it in a 1st and 2nd class at Polish school I attended at this time (Poles are strongly religional) but it wasn't very orthodox and dogmatic, but relatively user-friendly, as for children, you know. On the rest of (different) elementary school I haven't noticed any religional influence.
At middle school, I knew guys, which I had no idea they're christians, and if there were even any atheists, they didn't show up at all. I would guess that about 70% of people there had no opinion on the great questions of life and universe, atheistic or not, I would guess they would show up as agnostics or naturalists if anyone would ask them.

A religional discussion at school is a thing unknown to me. Once, on a local small religional festival at the end of the summer, one a neighbour had a talk with me if I'm aware of God (because people around knows that my family is something like suspicious pagans and runaways from religion) but I handled the conversation so, that we would basically agree with each other. Also, I don't remember being ever discriminated by christians or anyone, by my (non-)religional orientation. Probably people doesn't take it so seriously here. (except of Jehova's witnesses, they lurk here just as everywhere on the world)
I was never factically a christian, though I was raised as one, but both parents were long ago oriented towards something like New Age spirituality, so it didn't went from a heart, I guess. Though I attended Sunday school as all kids around, it was mainly because of relationships with neighbours and social contacts for us, kids.

It is terrifying, how creationism and evolution fights for souls of children. I wasn't ever taught the creationism, and there wasn't any strong emphasizing of evolution at schools, just facts about nature, biology and archeology. I just had read books about dinosaurs, I had always at home a big book with nicely illustrated things like cambrium, carbon, jura, pleistocen, paleolit, neolit, various animals, monsters, insects, plants, algae, milliards of years in such a detail. How can a creationistic vague description of "seven days" even face anything like this? How can creationists expect a success, in some cases even achieve it? I guess it's by removing a children's ability to think, by mental and spiritual abuse.  In fact, if there is anything like God, it must be completely in harmony with science, facts and intelligent way of doing things. Revealing a science would be revealing God's creations, thus getting known with God. In Biblic times, there was practically no science and this is why we shouldn't rely on Biblic description of God. World was small and simple, thus God was small and simple-minded.
I don't say it's everything clear with evolution, it on greater scale it doesn't resemble Darwin's model, and abiogenesis is too unprobable to actually work by itself, but it's good as a start.

I don't say the confidence in existence of things greater than we are is foolish - I have experienced enough to have this confidence (or even certainity). I can be wrong or unprecise in interpretation, in details, but not in basic empirical reasons for my confidence, which happened and happens every while, and can't be undone or refuted. Paradigms like mine are sometimes also referred to as a religion. Why not, such a religion may give a great freedom of mind, but organized religion is  slavery. Priests replaced the truth for a dogma.
 

 

Well, you know Poland is one of more religious European countries, but even there they never reach such heights as in USA. If someone wanted to stop teaching evolution and start teaching creationism they would be simple laughed of.


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Fanas wrote: You didn't

Fanas wrote:
 

You didn't understand me. You could teach your kids about religion as long as you don't indoctrinate them.

 

That is exactly what I'd like to do.

The trouble is, when do you start?  Too young, and I think they'll be confused.  Too late, and they may resent my wife and I for "shielding" them from information.  I don't ever want to shield them from knowledge - even if it is about a subject I don't particularly agree with.  I suppose these questions will answer themselves, if I just let them decide when to ask the *big* questions about life...

 

Sorry I misunderstood you!

 

-Ryan

 

 


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ryandinan wrote:That is

ryandinan wrote:
That is exactly what I'd like to do.

The trouble is, when do you start?  Too young, and I think they'll be confused.  Too late, and they may resent my wife and I for "shielding" them from information.  I don't ever want to shield them from knowledge - even if it is about a subject I don't particularly agree with.  I suppose these questions will answer themselves, if I just let them decide when to ask the *big* questions about life...

 Sorry I misunderstood you!

 -Ryan

Yep, you can safely wait for them to ask about it. You're already teaching them about things and showing them the neato-ness of the world around them so they will naturally come to you when they encounter something they don't understand. When you answer plainly there will be no resentment - the information was given when it was needed. =^_^=

"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray


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A big complaint I have would

A big complaint I have would be that I had to waste so much time and energy freeing myself from the theistic BS my parents tried to push on me when I was younger.  If I would have been able to spend that time thinking about other things, who knows how much wiser I would be now?

Also, though, I had to deal with the standard emotional issues that people have to deal with when freeing themselves from sadistic religions like Christianity... fear of being wrong and being eternally punished for it, etc.  This bothers me less, though, because that was a long time ago and I don't feel that way now.

My biggest complaint, though, would be lack of suitable people to date.  Religious BS messes with the way people think so much, and affects so many people, that it really reduces the percentage of people out there who could be a suitable partner.


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QuasarX wrote:My biggest

QuasarX wrote:

My biggest complaint, though, would be lack of suitable people to date.  Religious BS messes with the way people think so much, and affects so many people, that it really reduces the percentage of people out there who could be a suitable partner.

How true. I think you have to be open to dating a theist, as long as their fairly liberal.Well, I guess they would have to be to date an atheist in the first place. I had the same problem when I was a xtian though. There were few women who matched my stringent requirements for a woman of god. To my later regret and annoyance, I passed up a oppurtunity with a very nice girl once because I felt she wasn't godly enough.

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

dudeofthemoment wrote:
This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.

Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.