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Whats Love got to do with it...?

Posted on: March 24, 2008 - 5:57pm

jabwocky

Posts: 30

Joined: 2007-05-12

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Whats Love got to do with it...?

I have read numerous posts here lately, including Kelly’s 'hate' article, I guess I just wanted to sort of post a response to some of this.#1- One must separate Faith from Religion, one is manmade, therefore it is fallible, while the other one can be described as our 'belief system' I believe in God, you believe in the absence of God. I have faith that I will live forever with God, you have faith in the fact that you become dust.#2- Love is an emotion, where do emotions come from? I believe we are all made with a built-in ‘vacuum’ no, not a Hoover.. it’s only a figure of speech.. we are born ‘missing’ something in our lives, we are constantly looking to fill that void, and I believe only the Love of God can fill it, I read other posts on here about those that have a void, when they leave God, or the church, “how do I fix this” they say.. there is a way, fill it with something else, Jesus repeatedly says “eyes to see, ears to hear” for this very reason, God will allow you to fill that void with anything you want, and even make it appear to be right to you, but is it?#3 You don’t believe that God is who He is, but if He was, couldn’t He do anything He wanted? He gave us freewill, if we choose not to accept Him, would he not be capable of making us believe we were correct? And also would one be capable of knowing they made the wrong choice? If God is an all powerful, all knowing God, what could he not do? Have you been on this planet long enough to know everything? I am not that vain.. I know that there are still places on this planet, let alone this universe that nobody has seen or been to.I was recently sent this e-mail, very interesting content, I’m sure you can tear it apart if you want, but that is not the reason for me posting it, (there were other stories relayed to him, this is just one):The next story came about twenty minutes later. It’s a man this time, and he begins, “I’m not a very mystical guy.” I figured he was about to refer to the exercise where we listened to God, and I sort of smiled inside. When did talking to God become mystical? He continued, “But I did what you said and just got silent. And God said, Take Amy to St. John. Amy’s my wife, and God wants me to take her to the Bahamas.” I said, “Wow. Great,” thinking that was the end of the story. But he goes on, “After you finished I turned to the guy next to me and said, ‘I think God wants me to take my wife to St John.’ He said, ‘I have two tickets for St John and God has told me for awhile they are not for me but I’m supposed to give them to someone. So, you have two tickets for St. John.’”They had just met.How completely God is that?And this fellow, he was pretty blown away. “That is crazy!!” I just smiled and said, “Way to go. Enjoy the trip!”It’s not crazy. Just wild, and beautiful, and pretty normal…when you walk with God. I liken it to somebody standing outside a building, and telling people that there is nothing going on inside, “I went in there when nobody was at the reception desk, and nobody was there, so nothing is going on inside, in fact, I’m pretty sure nothing happens there..”#4- Related note: I have seen many post here that ‘I used to be a Christian’ but I would venture to argue that point also, if your definition of Christian is like that of so many others, I’m sure you were, but just saying, or knowing that Christ is the Son of God, does not make one a Christian, I believe in the existence of Satan, but I do not claim to be a follower.. Christ himself (I know the Bible again.. whoa..) said that “unless you are Born Again”. So I would have to say that anybody NOT born again is not really a Christian.. and a person born again, having received the Holy Spirit, would never be able to state that the Trinity does not exist. I would say, if there were one or two things that happened every now and then, you would have just cause to argue the point against Gods existence, but having hundreds or thousands of things happening everyday around the world it would be very difficult to say that they are ALL smoke and mirror tricks, (eyes to see ears to hear).One must remember outside of the existence of God, miracles cannot exist, they are not allowed in a scientific environment. I would have to guess that each of you knows at least one person, if not many, that “unexplainable” things have happened to.#5- Although I ramble, it comes down to Love, Love for others, Love of God for us, our love for God, there are many things that are outside the scope of science, that are unexplainable, that have no reason behind it, you can explain anything you want, anyway you want, does it make it true? No. and I’m in a worse boat, explain the existence of God? Without his actual presence here to prove it? It does say in the Bible that his signature is written for all to see so that there can be no excuse..I live on a 300 acre ranch in the middle of nowhere, and I am incapable of denying his existence, I see it daily all around me, in all the living things, even in the flowers and grass, is this all a mistake? Something that just came to be? When I die, do I turn to dust, do I cease to exist, I do not believe so, I thing we continue on, on the path we have CHOSEN. RUSH (the band) said it best even when the said, “if you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice” there are sides, and it’s not lots of sides, it 2 sides, and I write not for those of you who want to choose despair, and darkness , but those that still want looking for love and light, and goodness..My only wish is that you make a decision based on knowledge of ALL the facts, those cannot be gleamed by talking to one side of a debate, one must listen to both sides. Make it your quest to find the TRUTH, and you will find it, then make your decision. My_2_Cents…

Posted on: March 24, 2008 - 6:05pm #1

MattShizzle

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Multiply this several

Multiply this several times:

Posted on: March 24, 2008 - 6:28pm #2

jabwocky

Posts: 30

Joined: 2007-05-12

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Matt,I rest my case, you are

Matt,

I rest my case, you are a perfect example, thank you for insightful response, it means so much that the first response was so well composed. Truly hilarious too, I can see you put a lot of time into it, well at least you probably taxed your brain..

My_2_Cents...

Posted on: March 24, 2008 - 6:35pm #3

jcgadfly

Posts: 6791

Joined: 2006-07-18

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jabwocky wrote: I have read

jabwocky wrote:

I have read numerous posts here lately, including Kelly’s 'hate' article, I guess I just wanted to sort of post a response to some of this.#1- One must separate Faith from Religion, one is manmade, therefore it is fallible, while the other one can be described as our 'belief system' I believe in God, you believe in the absence of God. I have faith that I will live forever with God, you have faith in the fact that you become dust.#2- Love is an emotion, where do emotions come from? I believe we are all made with a built-in ‘vacuum’ no, not a Hoover.. it’s only a figure of speech.. we are born ‘missing’ something in our lives, we are constantly looking to fill that void, and I believe only the Love of God can fill it, I read other posts on here about those that have a void, when they leave God, or the church, “how do I fix this” they say.. there is a way, fill it with something else, Jesus repeatedly says “eyes to see, ears to hear” for this very reason, God will allow you to fill that void with anything you want, and even make it appear to be right to you, but is it?#3 You don’t believe that God is who He is, but if He was, couldn’t He do anything He wanted? He gave us freewill, if we choose not to accept Him, would he not be capable of making us believe we were correct? And also would one be capable of knowing they made the wrong choice? If God is an all powerful, all knowing God, what could he not do? Have you been on this planet long enough to know everything? I am not that vain.. I know that there are still places on this planet, let alone this universe that nobody has seen or been to.I was recently sent this e-mail, very interesting content, I’m sure you can tear it apart if you want, but that is not the reason for me posting it, (there were other stories relayed to him, this is just one):The next story came about twenty minutes later. It’s a man this time, and he begins, “I’m not a very mystical guy.” I figured he was about to refer to the exercise where we listened to God, and I sort of smiled inside. When did talking to God become mystical? He continued, “But I did what you said and just got silent. And God said, Take Amy to St. John. Amy’s my wife, and God wants me to take her to the Bahamas.” I said, “Wow. Great,” thinking that was the end of the story. But he goes on, “After you finished I turned to the guy next to me and said, ‘I think God wants me to take my wife to St John.’ He said, ‘I have two tickets for St John and God has told me for awhile they are not for me but I’m supposed to give them to someone. So, you have two tickets for St. John.’”They had just met.How completely God is that?And this fellow, he was pretty blown away. “That is crazy!!” I just smiled and said, “Way to go. Enjoy the trip!”It’s not crazy. Just wild, and beautiful, and pretty normal…when you walk with God. I liken it to somebody standing outside a building, and telling people that there is nothing going on inside, “I went in there when nobody was at the reception desk, and nobody was there, so nothing is going on inside, in fact, I’m pretty sure nothing happens there..”#4- Related note: I have seen many post here that ‘I used to be a Christian’ but I would venture to argue that point also, if your definition of Christian is like that of so many others, I’m sure you were, but just saying, or knowing that Christ is the Son of God, does not make one a Christian, I believe in the existence of Satan, but I do not claim to be a follower.. Christ himself (I know the Bible again.. whoa..) said that “unless you are Born Again”. So I would have to say that anybody NOT born again is not really a Christian.. and a person born again, having received the Holy Spirit, would never be able to state that the Trinity does not exist. I would say, if there were one or two things that happened every now and then, you would have just cause to argue the point against Gods existence, but having hundreds or thousands of things happening everyday around the world it would be very difficult to say that they are ALL smoke and mirror tricks, (eyes to see ears to hear).One must remember outside of the existence of God, miracles cannot exist, they are not allowed in a scientific environment. I would have to guess that each of you knows at least one person, if not many, that “unexplainable” things have happened to.#5- Although I ramble, it comes down to Love, Love for others, Love of God for us, our love for God, there are many things that are outside the scope of science, that are unexplainable, that have no reason behind it, you can explain anything you want, anyway you want, does it make it true? No. and I’m in a worse boat, explain the existence of God? Without his actual presence here to prove it? It does say in the Bible that his signature is written for all to see so that there can be no excuse..I live on a 300 acre ranch in the middle of nowhere, and I am incapable of denying his existence, I see it daily all around me, in all the living things, even in the flowers and grass, is this all a mistake? Something that just came to be? When I die, do I turn to dust, do I cease to exist, I do not believe so, I thing we continue on, on the path we have CHOSEN. RUSH (the band) said it best even when the said, “if you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice” there are sides, and it’s not lots of sides, it 2 sides, and I write not for those of you who want to choose despair, and darkness , but those that still want looking for love and light, and goodness..My only wish is that you make a decision based on knowledge of ALL the facts, those cannot be gleamed by talking to one side of a debate, one must listen to both sides. Make it your quest to find the TRUTH, and you will find it, then make your decision. My_2_Cents…

Loathe as I am to follow the eloquence of Matt's kitty...

1. How can faith in a man-made god not be man-made? Also, if something is a fact it needs no belief behind it ("the fact that you become dust&quot Eye-wink . This is in addition to your incorrect definition of atheism - atheism is not the belief there is no god.

2. Man, how long has it been since I've heard the God-shaped hole argument? Emotions are the results of chemistry in the brain produced as responses to stimuli.

3. I think this a record - the combining of Pascal's Wager and the "absolute knowledge" argument into an amorphous mass with some "god is omnipotent but he can't violate freewill" contradiction thrown in.

4. Ah, our old friend the NTS fallacy. They only followed the process described in the Bible but they're not "true christians". Oh, I didn't see the part about where they had to do it your way...

5. And a misconception of science followed by circular logic and the design argument.

I'd love to listen to both sides of the argument - where's yours?

Damn, I should've left it up to Matt's kitty. Now my head hurts.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin

Posted on: March 24, 2008 - 6:35pm #4

Cali_Athiest2

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jabwocky wrote: #4-

jabwocky wrote:

#4- Related note: I have seen many post here that ‘I used to be a Christian’ but I would venture to argue that point also, if your definition of Christian is like that of so many others, I’m sure you were, but just saying, or knowing that Christ is the Son of God, does not make one a Christian, I believe in the existence of Satan, but I do not claim to be a follower.. Christ himself (I know the Bible again.. whoa..) said that “unless you are Born Again”. So I would have to say that anybody NOT born again is not really a Christian.. and a person born again, having received the Holy Spirit, would never be able to state that the Trinity does not exist. I would say, if there were one or two things that happened every now and then, you would have just cause to argue the point against Gods existence, but having hundreds or thousands of things happening everyday around the world it would be very difficult to say that they are ALL smoke and mirror tricks, (eyes to see ears to hear).

Actually, we are mostly aware what it means to be a christian. I myself accepted jesus as my savior at 18 and baptised before my 19th birthday. I think you'll find those of us that say we were christians, we mean the whole shabang not just believed in god. I lost my faith like many here and no the trinity does not exist, but that's ok the holy spirit likes to rape young women anyways. Why is it so hard to believe someone can lose their faith?

"Always seek out the truth, but avoid at all costs those that claim to have found it" ANONYMOUS

Posted on: March 24, 2008 - 6:55pm #5

Renee Obsidianwords

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jabwocky wrote: I have read

jabwocky wrote:

I have read numerous posts here lately, including Kelly’s 'hate' article, I guess I just wanted to sort of post a response to some of this.#1- One must separate Faith from Religion, one is manmade, therefore it is fallible, while the other one can be described as our 'belief system' I believe in God, you believe in the absence of God. I have faith that I will live forever with God, you have faith in the fact that you become dust.

The word "faith" is man made in the sense that it is a word attached to a way a person believes in something they cannot know actually exists. And as for an atheists "faith" in becoming dust after death...that IS a proven fact.

jabwocky wrote:

#2- Love is an emotion, where do emotions come from? I believe we are all made with a built-in ‘vacuum’ no, not a Hoover.. it’s only a figure of speech.. we are born ‘missing’ something in our lives, we are constantly looking to fill that void, and I believe only the Love of God can fill it, I read other posts on here about those that have a void, when they leave God, or the church, “how do I fix this” they say.. there is a way, fill it with something else, Jesus repeatedly says “eyes to see, ears to hear” for this very reason, God will allow you to fill that void with anything you want, and even make it appear to be right to you, but is it?

ReneeObsidianwords wrote:

Please explain further this born trait we all share: the shared feeling of 'missing' something. The question about love is something that has been explored and written about for a very long time. Love is made up of feelings that vary from person to person so I can see how you can use phrases like" I believe" when explaining your view about god and love. Does a person born into a family of muslims not seek a love from their god?

jabwocky wrote:

#3 You don’t believe that God is who He is, but if He was, couldn’t He do anything He wanted? He gave us freewill, if we choose not to accept Him, would he not be capable of making us believe we were correct? And also would one be capable of knowing they made the wrong choice? If God is an all powerful, all knowing God, what could he not do? Have you been on this planet long enough to know everything? I am not that vain.. I know that there are still places on this planet, let alone this universe that nobody has seen or been to.

ReneeObsidianwords wrote:

So you prefer to fill in any ignorance you have to the unknown with a supernatural man? Interesting.

jabwocky wrote:

I was recently sent this e-mail, very interesting content, I’m sure you can tear it apart if you want, but that is not the reason for me posting it, (there were other stories relayed to him, this is just one):The next story came about twenty minutes later. It’s a man this time, and he begins, “I’m not a very mystical guy.” I figured he was about to refer to the exercise where we listened to God, and I sort of smiled inside. When did talking to God become mystical? He continued, “But I did what you said and just got silent. And God said, Take Amy to St. John. Amy’s my wife, and God wants me to take her to the Bahamas.” I said, “Wow. Great,” thinking that was the end of the story. But he goes on, “After you finished I turned to the guy next to me and said, ‘I think God wants me to take my wife to St John.’ He said, ‘I have two tickets for St John and God has told me for awhile they are not for me but I’m supposed to give them to someone. So, you have two tickets for St. John.’”They had just met.How completely God is that?And this fellow, he was pretty blown away. “That is crazy!!” I just smiled and said, “Way to go. Enjoy the trip!”It’s not crazy. Just wild, and beautiful, and pretty normal…when you walk with God. I liken it to somebody standing outside a building, and telling people that there is nothing going on inside, “I went in there when nobody was at the reception desk, and nobody was there, so nothing is going on inside, in fact, I’m pretty sure nothing happens there..”

ReneeObsidianwords wrote:

Only responding to your thoughts for now.

jabwocky wrote:

#4- Related note: I have seen many post here that ‘I used to be a Christian’ but I would venture to argue that point also, if your definition of Christian is like that of so many others, I’m sure you were, but just saying, or knowing that Christ is the Son of God, does not make one a Christian, I believe in the existence of Satan, but I do not claim to be a follower..

ReneeObsidianwords wrote:

Explain what you mean by this, I am confused by your attempt to parallel a belief in christ by believing he is the son of god to the existence of satan making one a follower...doesn't make sense.

jabwocky wrote:

Christ himself (I know the Bible again.. whoa..) said that “unless you are Born Again”. So I would have to say that anybody NOT born again is not really a Christian.. and a person born again, having received the Holy Spirit, would never be able to state that the Trinity does not exist. I would say, if there were one or two things that happened every now and then, you would have just cause to argue the point against Gods existence, but having hundreds or thousands of things happening everyday around the world it would be very difficult to say that they are ALL smoke and mirror tricks, (eyes to see ears to hear).One must remember outside of the existence of God, miracles cannot exist, they are not allowed in a scientific environment. I would have to guess that each of you knows at least one person, if not many, that “unexplainable” things have happened to.

ReneeObsidianwords wrote:

I am curious about all of these unexplainable things you propose all of us have had happen to us or the people we know. Do you have a few examples?

jabwocky wrote:

#5- Although I ramble, it comes down to Love, Love for others, Love of God for us, our love for God, there are many things that are outside the scope of science, that are unexplainable, that have no reason behind it, you can explain anything you want, anyway you want, does it make it true? No. and I’m in a worse boat, explain the existence of God? Without his actual presence here to prove it? It does say in the Bible that his signature is written for all to see so that there can be no excuse..I live on a 300 acre ranch in the middle of nowhere, and I am incapable of denying his existence, I see it daily all around me, in all the living things, even in the flowers and grass, is this all a mistake? Something that just came to be? When I die, do I turn to dust, do I cease to exist, I do not believe so, I thing we continue on, on the path we have CHOSEN. RUSH (the band) said it best even when the said, “if you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice” there are sides, and it’s not lots of sides, it 2 sides, and I write not for those of you who want to choose despair, and darkness , but those that still want looking for love and light, and goodness..My only wish is that you make a decision based on knowledge of ALL the facts, those cannot be gleamed by talking to one side of a debate, one must listen to both sides. Make it your quest to find the TRUTH, and you will find it, then make your decision.

ReneeObsidianwords wrote:

What decision are you asking your readers to make? To go buy a ranch and sit outside and open up your eyes and ears to hear the call of god? Love , light and goodness mean different things to different people, there is no one way to give love, to spread light and to share goodness, some of us choose to not give credit to an invisible man. Why is that so hard for theists to understand?

Slowly building a blog at ~

http://obsidianwords.wordpress.com/

Posted on: March 24, 2008 - 7:02pm #6

JillSwift

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jabwocky wrote:Matt,I rest

jabwocky wrote:

Matt,
I rest my case, you are a perfect example, thank you for insightful response, it means so much that the first response was so well composed. Truly hilarious too, I can see you put a lot of time into it, well at least you probably taxed your brain..
My_2_Cents...

I don't know what you expected. Everything you said up there is old ground. Some of it so old that it was being dismissed as old ground before you or I were so much as a "twinkle in the eye" of our fathers. Before our fathers were twinkling the eyes of their fathers, even.

Let me example this:

jabwocky wrote:

I have faith that I will live forever with God, you have faith in the fact that you become dust.

That our consciousness is naught more than an emergent result of a complex system that will stop functioning (and thus we stop existing) isn't faith. It's evidence-based reasoning. The mind is the result of the brain as evidenced by changes to the brain resulting in changes to the mind. The changes can be mechanical (brain injury, stroke, restricted hemo-profusion) or can be chemical (psychotropics, antidepressants, anesthesia). This is repeatable and predictable. Thus, no brain, no "I".

How can that possibly be described as "faith"?

"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray

Posted on: March 24, 2008 - 8:22pm #7

MattShizzle

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My pissed off cat with the

My pissed off cat with the "Not this shit again" title is my standard response to stupid arguments that have been repeatedly posted and already refuted on here. Does the Bible say something condemning checking previous internet posts to make sure what you are planning on posting hasn't already been done to death and thus avoiding making a royal ass of yourself?

Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team

Posted on: March 24, 2008 - 8:50pm #8

Dray

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He speaks the truth

MattShizzle wrote:

My pissed off cat with the "Not this shit again" title is my standard response to stupid arguments that have been repeatedly posted and already refuted on here. Does the Bible say something condemning checking previous internet posts to make sure what you are planning on posting hasn't already been done to death and thus avoiding making a royal ass of yourself?

Its true, i've only been reading up on the forums for a couple months and I didnt read a single new argument in the OP. Not even halfway through the first paragraph I felt the presence of the NTSA cat on its way.

Posted on: March 24, 2008 - 9:56pm #9

MattShizzle

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I still wonder if there's an

I still wonder if there's an "asshat academy" where they teach the same tired old arguments to proselytizers, like we never heard them before.

Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team

Posted on: March 24, 2008 - 9:58pm #10

MattShizzle

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Dray wrote: Not even

Dray wrote:

Not even halfway through the first paragraph I felt the presence of the NTSA cat on its way.

You felt her presence? Wow, could Miss Callie be the next "god" in the "atheist pantheon?" - ie Flying Spaghtti Monster, Invisible Pink Unicorn, etc.

Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team

Posted on: March 24, 2008 - 10:19pm #11

latincanuck

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jabwocky wrote: I have read

jabwocky wrote:

I have read numerous posts here lately, including Kelly’s 'hate' article, I guess I just wanted to sort of post a response to some of this.#1- One must separate Faith from Religion, one is man made, therefore it is fallible, while the other one can be described as our 'belief system' I believe in God, you believe in the absence of God. I have faith that I will live forever with God, you have faith in the fact that you become dust.

Ok first off, I do not need faith to know that once I die, my body will decay and become dust.....eventually.......after a long period of decay, unless I go with creamation which I will become ashes. However NO WHERE is this faith, this is knowledge, once we die, we become dust/ashes. Now there is NO evidence that you will live forever after death....this is a belief system, this requires faith because it has no evidence to back it up. Do you see the difference here? Probably not based on your argument, but I do hope you can see the difference. Next part god is man made, we have hundreds of thousands of gods from different culture at all different times of history, be it religion wise or belief-wise it's man made.

#2- Love is an emotion, where do emotions come from? I believe we are all made with a built-in ‘vacuum’ no, not a Hoover.. it’s only a figure of speech.. we are born ‘missing’ something in our lives, we are constantly looking to fill that void, and I believe only the Love of God can fill it, I read other posts on here about those that have a void, when they leave God, or the church, “how do I fix this” they say.. there is a way, fill it with something else, Jesus repeatedly says “eyes to see, ears to hear” for this very reason, God will allow you to fill that void with anything you want, and even make it appear to be right to you, but is it?

Love is a chemical reaction caused in the brain by stimuli. Now with this explained, we can show with different forms of experiments, one of course is drugs, extacy is one such drug that can cause the user to experience intense periods of europhoria and intense feelings of love towards others. The void that many feel after leaving religion is the feeling of belonging, I for example a life long atheist (aka I have never believed in god, I grew up atheist) have never had this feeling of void from god, I have always surrounded myself with friends and family, who I know love me no matter what. Most people when they leave religion have a huge fear of being abandoned by their friends and family, this is of course can cause distress and a feeling of loneliness and a void in their life. God again is irrelevant, once they fill that void with family and or friend or have a feeling of belonging to a group or to society as a whole, that feeling usually goes away.

#3 You don’t believe that God is who He is, but if He was, couldn’t He do anything He wanted? He gave us freewill, if we choose not to accept Him, would he not be capable of making us believe we were correct? And also would one be capable of knowing they made the wrong choice? If God is an all powerful, all knowing God, what could he not do? Have you been on this planet long enough to know everything? I am not that vain.. I know that there are still places on this planet, let alone this universe that nobody has seen or been to.I was recently sent this e-mail, very interesting content, I’m sure you can tear it apart if you want, but that is not the reason for me posting it, (there were other stories relayed to him, this is just one):The next story came about twenty minutes later. It’s a man this time, and he begins, “I’m not a very mystical guy.” I figured he was about to refer to the exercise where we listened to God, and I sort of smiled inside. When did talking to God become mystical? He continued, “But I did what you said and just got silent. And God said, Take Amy to St. John. Amy’s my wife, and God wants me to take her to the Bahamas.” I said, “Wow. Great,” thinking that was the end of the story. But he goes on, “After you finished I turned to the guy next to me and said, ‘I think God wants me to take my wife to St John.’ He said, ‘I have two tickets for St John and God has told me for awhile they are not for me but I’m supposed to give them to someone. So, you have two tickets for St. John.’”They had just met.How completely God is that?And this fellow, he was pretty blown away. “That is crazy!!” I just smiled and said, “Way to go. Enjoy the trip!”It’s not crazy. Just wild, and beautiful, and pretty normal…when you walk with God. I liken it to somebody standing outside a building, and telling people that there is nothing going on inside, “I went in there when nobody was at the reception desk, and nobody was there, so nothing is going on inside, in fact, I’m pretty sure nothing happens there..”

The idea is trying to define god, what god are you talking about, christian god has interfered with humans so many times in ancient times yet fails to even show himself once in the last 2000 years, yet the 2000 years before he did a lot of showing himself to people that lets admit science was the least thing on their mind and knowledge about the scientific natural world was well....pretty non existent. Yet our modern times, god didn't do any of this great miracles that he has done in the past......I wonder why....could be he is just a made up story of man kind to explain natural phenomenas they couldn't explain themselves naturally? So which god are you speaking about here? As for the story above about the tickets, I going to call horseshit on this one, I have heard so many variations on this story it's ridiculous, it never has happened to anyone, it is always somebody's brothers, friend, cousin twice removed, basically no one that you can actually verify that this happened to.

#4- Related note: I have seen many post here that ‘I used to be a Christian’ but I would venture to argue that point also, if your definition of Christian is like that of so many others, I’m sure you were, but just saying, or knowing that Christ is the Son of God, does not make one a Christian, I believe in the existence of Satan, but I do not claim to be a follower.. Christ himself (I know the Bible again.. whoa..) said that “unless you are Born Again”. So I would have to say that anybody NOT born again is not really a Christian.. and a person born again, having received the Holy Spirit, would never be able to state that the Trinity does not exist. I would say, if there were one or two things that happened every now and then, you would have just cause to argue the point against Gods existence, but having hundreds or thousands of things happening everyday around the world it would be very difficult to say that they are ALL smoke and mirror tricks, (eyes to see ears to hear).One must remember outside of the existence of God, miracles cannot exist, they are not allowed in a scientific environment. I would have to guess that each of you knows at least one person, if not many, that “unexplainable” things have happened to.

I can attest to this, I have seen many born again christian become atheists. Now unexplainable things, well when it comes from personal experiences I personally take it with a grain of salt. I can give you many a person that has claimed to have been cured by cancer with faith and prayer and god, yet they always fail to mention that they had also gone to the doctor. Trust me, if they claim miracles, be very skeptical about it, because something is always missing...usually the truth and proper perspective. #5- Although I ramble, it comes down to Love, Love for others, Love of God for us, our love for God, there are many things that are outside the scope of science, that are unexplainable, that have no reason behind it, you can explain anything you want, anyway you want, does it make it true? No. and I’m in a worse boat, explain the existence of God? Without his actual presence here to prove it? It does say in the Bible that his signature is written for all to see so that there can be no excuse..I live on a 300 acre ranch in the middle of nowhere, and I am incapable of denying his existence, I see it daily all around me, in all the living things, even in the flowers and grass, is this all a mistake? Something that just came to be? When I die, do I turn to dust, do I cease to exist, I do not believe so, I thing we continue on, on the path we have CHOSEN. RUSH (the band) said it best even when the said, “if you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice” there are sides, and it’s not lots of sides, it 2 sides, and I write not for those of you who want to choose despair, and darkness , but those that still want looking for love and light, and goodness..My only wish is that you make a decision based on knowledge of ALL the facts, those cannot be gleamed by talking to one side of a debate, one must listen to both sides. Make it your quest to find the TRUTH, and you will find it, then make your decision. My_2_Cents…

I also live in the middle of nowhere on 10 acres my neighbor to the left has 370 acres, to the right 200 acres and in front of me nearly 600 acres, I see no evidence of god, I see evidence of the natural world and how wonderous and beautiful it is, none of it I see, is a mistake (why do all freaking theists make this statement about the natural world that is devoid of a god) it is the product of this environment and the evolution throughout billions of years to get to this point and 100,000 years from now it will be different than it is now. That my friend is far more wonderous and far more beautiful that god did it, that is the biggest cop-out, a complete lack of interest in understanding how it is and how it came to be, simply I don' t know therefore god must have done it. There are three sides to everything, but lets not get into semantics, from my view yours is despair and darkness, mine is enlightenment and hope. But that's a matter of opinion now, such is yours. Then again there is the truth, what it is however is a matter of opinion. So that is my 2 cents and I hope you understand one thing, I have heard your side many times by far far far more knowledgeable people from the theistic community and yet the naturalist explaination of the world is far more superior that god did it.

Posted on: March 24, 2008 - 10:46pm #12

jabwocky

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, you are missing my point,

You all prove my case, ALL of your arguments are only based on science, yes FAITH is a manmade word, so are all the others in all the languages around the world, but if you ONLY take books that have information that you want to use to prove your point, and discard others as valid, you have proven my point, and yes, much of my post may have been gone over all ready, but I don't have time, neither does anybody here to read every post, not just on this site, but all the others as well, and gee, have you read every book ever written too?My point is, we have a very limited amount of information, we are for a limited amount of time, and to shut out a section of information that is out there and discredit it, simply because you don't care to believe, or you have made up your mind that it isn't correct does NOT make it not correct is my point.The point about dust, yes, our bodies become dust, but there is more.. but not if you don't want it.Cali_Atheist2, my only thought on your post is, yes, one is capable of losing their faith, BUT to say at one point in your life that you truly believed Christ was who he said He said was, and accept as you Lord and Savior and to go to “there is no God, and The HS rapes little girls” is not a rational jump.. I think you will find that Mary was given a choice.. I don’t know, I wasn’t there, I would not be so bold as to make statements based upon somebody’s misguided hate..You either A, didn’t believe it in the first place, B, are Lying.My case is it is awfully difficult to eat a bowl of Vanilla (or any flavor you wish) ice cream, then after it is gone, say that ice cream doesn’t exist.Renee, Well written but as I said, you prove my case, I can’t prove God exists outside of the millions of people that profess a personal relationship with him, but you can’t disprove his existence, nor is it possible for you truly know anything that has happened previous to recorded history, any theory written thousands to millions of years after the fact may be flawed. See dust above..The only answer to that is, have you never in whole life sat back and asked, “is there more to life than this?” I think that is a question everybody has asked themselves, the questions are there, the answer is there, my point is, you find the answer YOU want to find.. but you STILL have not disproved the existence of God, only for you..but that is your choice..if you only look for spotted owls in old growth timber, you won’t find them.. it turns out they live everywhere else, If you only look for God in science, you might not find him, although He is there, he mostly lives everywhere else..Our total amount of ‘ignorance’ would fill volumes if somebody attempted to write them, and I mean all the people on this planet combined, my ‘ignorance’ is based upon my personal experience, which I will take over almost any written word by somebody else, I was once told a bit of advice I’ll always remember, “never believe anything anybody else tells you, find out for yourself” I told him I didn’t believe him… but that is my point also, so much of the information that is tossed around here is hearsay, tossed about as it was written in stone somewhere, it isn’t you even toss around theories as if they were true, doesn’t the word ‘theory’ mean anything to you? So, my conjecture is, we are all ignorant, so what makes my faith so wrong, even though it is different than yours? They are both based on ignorance, mine is based upon my personal experience, as is yours, is either one correct? We will see.. if I’m wrong, no big deal..I live as crazy as I ever did, the only difference is what I believe.. I will admit there is another difference, when I lose my car keys, or anything for that matter, I can ask God where it is, and he tells me.. you probably have to look a little longer..The letter is from a good friend of mine, I’ve heard, and seen stuff like this happen before, but as I said, it was only a small example of something that is not explainable. I contribute it to God, but saying just for the sake of argument it is true, how does one explain it?It is very easy, if one says they are a ‘Christian’ by believing in the existence of Christ as their only basis, and many people are that way, then if one believed in the existence Satan, wouldn’t that make him a Satanist? or whatever..No, you are missing my point, I realize you have made your decision, and decided your fate, good bad or indifferent, I wish that was not true, because unlike you, I do know there is God, it’s not made up, it’s not fake, I know because like the letter posted, I talk to him, and He answers me, if is through the Holy Spirit or however He does it, I don’t know, but plain as day I hear a voice, that answers my questions, and tells me things, I never imagined, it makes my life easier, why would I not want that?You ask why it is so hard for those of us that know God to not believe He is an invisible man? Because we know Him, we know He is real, it is IMPOSSIBLE for me to deny that..We are just as amazed at your lack of knowing that He does exist with all the signs around you that he exists..My_2_Cents…

Posted on: March 24, 2008 - 11:06pm #13

jabwocky

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Matt,That may be true, but

Matt,

That may be true, but I don't sit in here reading all the posts everyday either, and I ahven't read all the posts here either..

A slight bit of courtesy might be nice, but as I said, you only prove my point, I guess you missed it as I tend to ramble, but as I look at this sight, I just feel a lot of hate and anger, I guess if I felt, lived that way, I would be that way too.. I guess that is why I titled my initial post the way I did, and then I probably digressed..

One becomes a part of what one does, feels, and emulates those that they spend a lot of time with, it actually makes me sad to even stay on here and read posts, I wonder how one could enjoy life under the cloud you carry..

Posted on: March 24, 2008 - 11:13pm #14

Dray

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Church of NTSA Cat

MattShizzle wrote:

You felt her presence? Wow, could Miss Callie be the next "god" in the "atheist pantheon?" - ie Flying Spaghtti Monster, Invisible Pink Unicorn, etc.

It could happen. In fact, i think I will set up an altar to the NTSA Cat in my closet tonight.

Also, I cant help but think Jabwocky actually means to say "Jesus loves you and i'll pray for you" when he says "my_2_cents". It is really the only thing missing from the OP.

Posted on: March 24, 2008 - 11:34pm #15

jcgadfly

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"so what makes my faith so

"so what makes my faith so wrong, even though it is different than yours?"

Who said your faith was wrong? We're waiting on you to prove that it's right.

Shame all you have is an intense belief that a man-made God recorded in a man-made book can solve all your problems.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin

Posted on: March 24, 2008 - 11:36pm #16

MattShizzle

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OH, FFS, looks like the OP

OH, FFS, looks like the OP is a good candidate for the asshat avatar. Yeah, making shit up is a valid method of determining truth.

Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team

Posted on: March 25, 2008 - 12:23am #17

JillSwift

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jabwocky wrote:No, you are

jabwocky wrote:

No, you are missing my point, I realize you have made your decision, and decided your fate, good bad or indifferent, I wish that was not true, because unlike you, I do know there is God, it’s not made up, it’s not fake, I know because like the letter posted, I talk to him, and He answers me, if is through the Holy Spirit or however He does it, I don’t know, but plain as day I hear a voice, that answers my questions, and tells me things, I never imagined, it makes my life easier, why would I not want that?

Well, that's testable. Which is a good thing for a science-minded lot like us, and that's exciting! We could be witness to the first real evidence for the existence of god.

Please, jabwocky, ask him to tell you a little something about me - some fact that is really kind of uniquely me (i.e. name something pinned to my cork-board behind my monitor, what I have hidden in the bottom of my dad's old army trunk, etc.) so you can post it here. I can then verify the veracity of the claim, giving evidence of something like omniscience. That would be solid evidence.

I'm what would be classed a "weak atheist", meaning I where don't believe in any god, I don't claim to know that there is no god. So without that investment you can trust that if you get it right I won't lie about it.

I really look forward to this!

Posted on: March 25, 2008 - 1:51am #18

jabwocky

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How does one reply, or

How does one reply, or attempt to reply to anybody that only answers any written statement, with "prove it", or "you are lying" when I have even stated that it is not proveable, but I have also said to you, prove He doesn't exist, and you can't..

Jill, you need a prophet, He doesn't tell me things about others, I wouldn't ask, I'm not a magician here to do magic tricks, but if you really want to. I'm sure if you try hard enough, you could find a prophet, that would be able to tell you those things, it amazes me how small your minds think, you want it to be the way you want soooo bad, that I bet if I even told you something that was true, you would play it off as some trick, I know of people, some personally that can tell things that will happen in the future, specific events about specific people, and they are right 100% of the time.

I will also add, sorry to have posted such a dead subject, I only put up what I had not read here before, as such, I will not bother you again...

Good luck in your future endeavors, wait a minute, I guess luck would be something you couldn't believe in either?

In that case have a nice day Smiling

My_Last_2_Cents...

Posted on: March 25, 2008 - 2:27am #19

JillSwift

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jabwocky wrote:How does one

jabwocky wrote:

How does one reply, or attempt to reply to anybody that only answers any written statement, with "prove it", or "you are lying" when I have even stated that it is not proveable, but I have also said to you, prove He doesn't exist, and you can't..
Jill, you need a prophet, He doesn't tell me things about others, I wouldn't ask, I'm not a magician here to do magic tricks, but if you really want to. I'm sure if you try hard enough, you could find a prophet, that would be able to tell you those things, it amazes me how small your minds think, you want it to be the way you want soooo bad, that I bet if I even told you something that was true, you would play it off as some trick, I know of people, some personally that can tell things that will happen in the future, specific events about specific people, and they are right 100% of the time.
I will also add, sorry to have posted such a dead subject, I only put up what I had not read here before, as such, I will not bother you again...
Good luck in your future endeavors, wait a minute, I guess luck would be something you couldn't believe in either?
In that case have a nice day
My_Last_2_Cents...

Strangely, I am reminded of Uri Geller.

Posted on: March 25, 2008 - 3:38am #20

AmericanIdle

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Quote:but I have also said

Quote:

but I have also said to you, prove He doesn't exist, and you can't..

Xenu was the dictator of the Galactic Confederacy. He brought billions of people to earth 75 million years ago in DC-8's, stacked them around volcanoes and blew them up w/ hydrogen bombs.

Here is where I'd like u to prove he doesn't exist......** waits **......** whistles **............ You can't ???? Then join me in my worship of Xenu..We shall attach "In Xenu we trust" to our currency and build a Xenu Temple on every street corner.

Hold on... I've got several thousand more deities you're not going to be able to prove don't exist.....OR

We could place the burden of proof on the idiot propagating the deity and not the other way around.. Maybe save us all alot of time, brain cells, follow a reasonable chain of logic and just make way too much sense ?

No one gives a crap that your deity can't be proven to not exist... The responsibility rests solely on the person making any positive claim, ie, "there is a god", not the person doubting any credible evidence for "god"....

Next !!

"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
George Orwell

Posted on: March 25, 2008 - 9:57am #21

Renee Obsidianwords

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The only answer to that is,

"The only answer to that is, have you never in whole life sat back and asked, “is there more to life than this?” I think that is a question everybody has asked themselves, the questions are there, the answer is there, my point is, you find the answer YOU want to find.. but you STILL have not disproved the existence of God, only for you..but that is your choice..if you only look for spotted owls in old growth timber, you won’t find them.. it turns out they live everywhere else, If you only look for God in science, you might not find him, although He is there, he mostly lives everywhere else.."

If you claim there is a god it is up to you to prove its existence. It is not up to the person that doesn't hold your view to disprove gods existence.

I agree that a large majority of humans at one time or another have thought to themselves "is there more to life than this?" however that is teetering closely to an argument from omniscience and I don't know what every single human on earth thinks.

Speaking for myself I spent the better part of my young life asking those questions and investigating and searching for the answer. God was the answer i was given and as I asked more and more questions to my pastor and my parents and my friends none of it made sense. I even asked for clarification from god and waited. And waited. Open mind, open heart waited. Nothing.

I could have made a choice to 'pretend' the answer was given to me so that I could conform to the belief held by all of those around me but I wanted to be true to myself and my own thoughts.

Nobody knows all the answers, I agree with you there. But I would rather live a life as my own then live it for the acceptance of an entity that remains unknown....remember, you say nobody knows all the answers...

Slowly building a blog at ~

http://obsidianwords.wordpress.com/

Posted on: March 25, 2008 - 10:12am #22

jcgadfly

Posts: 6791

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jabwocky wrote:How does one

jabwocky wrote:

How does one reply, or attempt to reply to anybody that only answers any written statement, with "prove it", or "you are lying" when I have even stated that it is not proveable, but I have also said to you, prove He doesn't exist, and you can't..
Jill, you need a prophet, He doesn't tell me things about others, I wouldn't ask, I'm not a magician here to do magic tricks, but if you really want to. I'm sure if you try hard enough, you could find a prophet, that would be able to tell you those things, it amazes me how small your minds think, you want it to be the way you want soooo bad, that I bet if I even told you something that was true, you would play it off as some trick, I know of people, some personally that can tell things that will happen in the future, specific events about specific people, and they are right 100% of the time.
I will also add, sorry to have posted such a dead subject, I only put up what I had not read here before, as such, I will not bother you again...
Good luck in your future endeavors, wait a minute, I guess luck would be something you couldn't believe in either?
In that case have a nice day
My_Last_2_Cents...

You know your god exists but you can't prove it without faith. In other words, you don't know your God exists and you lied. Instead of coming clean, you try to get others to do your work for you with the "prove he doesn't" smokescreen. Others have gone on about shifting the burden of proof so I won't continue.

Please bring on these "correct 100% of the time" people. Chances are their prophecies are gloriously vague, they make sweeping discoveries like "water's wet" or "Atlanta gets hot in August" or they're made after the fact. No other way I can think of to get 100% accuracy. Still, bring them on.

As far as luck is concerned - Luck is just like answers to prayer. Most of the time, you make your own. The rest just happens.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin

Posted on: March 25, 2008 - 12:16pm #23

lifewhispers

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jabwocky wrote: I have read

jabwocky wrote:

I have read numerous posts here lately, including Kelly’s 'hate' article, I guess I just wanted to sort of post a response to some of this.
#1- One must separate Faith from Religion, one is manmade, therefore it is fallible, while the other one can be described as our 'belief system'

Both faith and religion can be fallible. Religion has been, and always will be, a primitive form of GOVERNMENT. It was intended to be a tool for controlling the ignorant masses. Faith is belief in something for which you have insufficient evidence to establish its truth. Faith is the tool of deceivers and those who would be deceived.

But, that is not to say that faith has no place in our lives. Faith in one's self and faith in the truth can be empowering. Faith in things, like people stopping at red lights can help facilitate smooth traffic flow. For, if you did not have faith in others stopping at red lights, why would you ever go through a green light without stopping?

Faith allows us the freedom to live our lives without having to verify every little thing, before we can believe it. But, faith in things without commensurate evidence to establish their truth simply opens us up to the possibility of being deceived. For example, it is the faithful spouse that is the last to know of their partner's infidelity. It is through faith that a confidence man can deceive you.

jabwocky wrote:

I believe in God, you believe in the absence of God. I have faith that I will live forever with God, you have faith in the fact that you become dust.

But, upon what do you base your beliefs? How can you be certain that you will live forever with God? If life, for you, is eternal, why would death be a part of God's Plan? What purpose would it serve for you to continue living without a body that would allow you to interract with the rest of the Universe? Apart from empty promises from anonymous authors, why would you ever believe such a thing? Do you fear death so much that you simply cannot accept it? How much faith in God does that express? God imposed death upon His Creation. Why do you not have faith that death is the best ultimate end to your life? For one suffering, is not death a release from it?

jabwocky wrote:

#2- Love is an emotion, where do emotions come from?

Emotions are survival mechanisms. Love facilitates procreation and survival. Fear facilitates survival. Those are the only two real emotions. All the others are byproducts of those two.

jabwocky wrote:

I believe we are all made with a built-in ‘vacuum’ no, not a Hoover.. it’s only a figure of speech.. we are born ‘missing’ something in our lives, we are constantly looking to fill that void, and I believe only the Love of God can fill it,

Upon what do you base that belief?

jabwocky wrote:

#3 You don’t believe that God is who He is, but if He was, couldn’t He do anything He wanted?

What makes you think you know who and what God is? Yours is a faith-based belief system. It's not based on evidence. So, apart from your mere choice to believe what others have told you about God, how do you know who and what God is?Until you can answer that question, the rest of your assumptions and hypotheses fall flat.

jabwocky wrote:

He gave us freewill, if we choose not to accept Him, would he not be capable of making us believe we were correct?

So, why would God care whether, or not, we believe in Him?

jabwocky wrote:

And also would one be capable of knowing they made the wrong choice?

Why would there be a "right" and a "wrong" choice with regard to belief in God?

jabwocky wrote:

If God is an all powerful, all knowing God, what could he not do?

Apparently, He cannot communicate with us without the use of a book, the people who wrote the book, and faith on the part of the people who read the book. Except that, the He supposedly communicated directly with those who wrote the book. So, that means that He could communicate directly with any of us; therefore, the book is not necessary. So, why would you not abandon the book in favor of a direct relationship with God? Or, is that just not possible?

jabwocky wrote:

Have you been on this planet long enough to know everything? I am not that vain..

But, you do appear vain enough to believe that your mere faith is enough to establish your religious beliefs to be true. That's pretty vain.

jabwocky wrote:

I know that there are still places on this planet, let alone this universe that nobody has seen or been to.

Your point?

jabwocky wrote:

I was recently sent this e-mail, very interesting content, I’m sure you can tear it apart if you want, but that is not the reason for me posting it, (there were other stories relayed to him, this is just one):The next story came about twenty minutes later.It’s a man this time, and he begins, “I’m not a very mystical guy.” I figured he was about to refer to the exercise where we listened to God, and I sort of smiled inside. When did talking to God become mystical? He continued, “But I did what you said and just got silent. And God said, Take Amy to St. John. Amy’s my wife, and God wants me to take her to the Bahamas.” I said, “Wow. Great,” thinking that was the end of the story. But he goes on, “After you finished I turned to the guy next to me and said, ‘I think God wants me to take my wife to St John.’ He said, ‘I have two tickets for St John and God has told me for awhile they are not for me but I’m supposed to give them to someone. So, you have two tickets for St. John.They had just met.How completely God is that?

Why does it have anything to do with God?

jabwocky wrote:

And this fellow, he was pretty blown away. “That is crazy!!” I just smiled and said, “Way to go. Enjoy the trip!” It's not crazy. Just wild and beautiful and pretty normal when you walk with God.

1 - It's probably not true (but, since when have Christians cared about whether anything is really true?)2 - Even if it was true, it could merely have been coincidence. Or, it could have been some other phenomenon that was not God.3 - It is merely an anecdotal story. It establishes nothing about God - only about the mental contortions believers go through to validate their beliefs to themselves.

jabwocky wrote:

#4- Related note: I have seen many post here that ‘I used to be a Christian’ but I would venture to argue that point also, if your definition of Christian is like that of so many others, I’m sure you were, but just saying, or knowing that Christ is the Son of God, does not make one a Christian, I believe in the existence of Satan, but I do not claim to be a follower..Christ himself (I know the Bible again.. whoa..) said that “unless you are Born Again”. So I would have to say that anybody NOT born again is not really a Christian.. and a person born again, having received the Holy Spirit, would never be able to state that the Trinity does not exist.

The old, "They're not really Christians" bit. It's patently offensive and overwhelmingly arrogant on the part of anyone who uses it. Even Jesus would admonish you for daring to judge others in such a manner. Why? Because, it is patently offensive and arrogant.

jabwocky wrote:

I would say, if there were one or two things that happened every now and then, you would have just cause to argue the point against Gods existence, but having hundreds or thousands of things happening everyday around the world it would be very difficult to say that they are ALL smoke and mirror tricks, (eyes to see ears to hear).

You seem to forget that yours is a faith-based belief system. You will not ever have evidence. For, in the instant that you had evidence that your beliefs were true, your faith would no longer be required. And, it is by faith, not evidence, that you are supposedly "saved." So, your own religious beliefs preclude you from ever knowing anything for certain about them. As a believer, you should never even look for evidence. To search for evidence is to express a lack of faith, or doubt. So, you cannot then expect others to consider anecdotal accounts as evidence.

jabwocky wrote:

One must remember outside of the existence of God, miracles cannot exist, they are not allowed in a scientific environment. I would have to guess that each of you knows at least one person, if not many, that “unexplainable” things have happened to.

It is a non-sequitur to assign all of the unexplained to God.

jabwocky wrote:

#5- Although I ramble, it comes down to Love, Love for others, Love of God for us, our love for God,

Why does God have to be a part of the equation?

jabwocky wrote:

there are many things that are outside the scope of science, that are unexplainable, that have no reason behind it, you can explain anything you want, anyway you want, does it make it true? No.

Read that a few times while standing in front of a mirror.

jabwocky wrote:

and I’m in a worse boat, explain the existence of God? Without his actual presence here to prove it?

I would argue that, if the miracle of the Universe is not enough to convince you of God, then no miracle could ever do so. I would also argue that those who require, expect, or accept miracles are expressing a LACK of faith in God. Why? Because, it means that they do not have faith that God has Created the Universe in such a way as to perfectly handle any and all circumstances that might ever arise without the intervention of miracles. "Miracles" represent violations of the perfection of the Universe. That is what you ascribe to God - violations of the perfection of the Universe He supposedly Created.

jabwocky wrote:

It does say in the Bible that his signature is written for all to see so that there can be no excuse..

Then, miracles are completely unnecessary, aren't they?

jabwocky wrote:

I live on a 300 acre ranch in the middle of nowhere, and I am incapable of denying his existence, I see it daily all around me, in all the living things, even in the flowers and grass, is this all a mistake?

No, it is a chosen perspective.

jabwocky wrote:

Something that just came to be? When I die, do I turn to dust, do I cease to exist, I do not believe so, I thing we continue on, on the path we have CHOSEN.

What would be the point in a human continuing to live beyond their physical body? Of what value is the physical experience of life to a disembodied soul? Would it not be an entirely new and different life? And, if it is, why should we consider it to be a continuation of this one?

jabwocky wrote:

RUSH (the band) said it best even when the said, “if you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice” there are sides, and it’s not lots of sides, it 2 sides, and I write not for those of you who want to choose despair, and darkness , but those that still want looking for love and light, and goodness..

More patently offensive rhetoric on your part. What makes you think anyone would ever "choose despair and darkness?" What makes you think that abandoning all reason in favor of embracing faith is "looking for love and light and goodness?"

jabwocky wrote:

My only wish is that you make a decision based on knowledge of ALL the facts...

And, what facts do you have to present? So far, all you have presented is faith-based belief. Why would you not take your own advice? The facts do not imply the Christian God.

jabwocky wrote:

...those cannot be gleamed by talking to one side of a debate, one must listen to both sides. Make it your quest to find the TRUTH, and you will find it, then make your decision.

It seems that you have made your decision in spite of the facts, rather than because of them.

Posted on: March 25, 2008 - 1:09pm #24

Cali_Athiest2

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jabwocky

jabwocky wrote:

Cali_Atheist2, my only thought on your post is, yes, one is capable of losing their faith, BUT to say at one point in your life that you truly believed Christ was who he said He said was, and accept as you Lord and Savior and to go to “there is no God, and The HS rapes little girls” is not a rational jump.. I think you will find that Mary was given a choice.. I don’t know, I wasn’t there, I would not be so bold as to make statements based upon somebody’s misguided hate..You either A, didn’t believe it in the first place, B, are Lying.

Your hubris is showing. First I never said the holy spirit rapes young girls. I said the HS rapes young women. I concede that if mary existed she probably had a choice, but would god not know rather or not she was willing to bear the son of man? If god is all-knowing it would not have even gone to Mary in the first place without knowing rather or not she was a willing participant. The whole idea that god would need to test anything is irrational. This was mostly a sarcastic statement anyways, however, there is nothing to prove that a ghost had anything to do with any being coming into existence. Genghis Kahn was supposedly born of a virgin too, but does that mean his birth was any more special than anyone else? IMHO the virgin birth thing is overstated because of a mistranslation from the Hebrew to the subsequent Greek. This is getting off the point though so I digress.

You seem to think that I became an atheist because I hate god, oh how typical your response. Perhaps, I misunderstood your "misguided hate" statement, but it seems to me that you think I am being hateful? This could not be further from the truth. I became an atheist because the bible is just plain silly. Do you believe that Jack had a magical beanstalk leading to a giant's house in the sky? If this story were in the bible would you believe it? I find all the world's religions equally ludicrous, so don't think I am picking on christianity in particuliar.

Apparently you have no problem making bold statements because you seem to think I am lying to you about being a born-again before I became an atheist. I could care less what you think personally. I did believe this once upon a time, but the fact that the bible/quran/vedas/torah all read like fairy tales is a statement I will stand behind and apologize to no one for saying such. The fact is many theists lose their faith and I can send you links to many testimonials to prove it. I also understand many atheists convert to theism as well. However, there is nothing irrational about not believing something without any evidence to back it up.

"Always seek out the truth, but avoid at all costs those that claim to have found it" ANONYMOUS

Posted on: March 25, 2008 - 1:19pm #25

Cali_Athiest2

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JillSwift wrote:jabwocky

JillSwift wrote:

jabwocky wrote:
No, you are missing my point, I realize you have made your decision, and decided your fate, good bad or indifferent, I wish that was not true, because unlike you, I do know there is God, it’s not made up, it’s not fake, I know because like the letter posted, I talk to him, and He answers me, if is through the Holy Spirit or however He does it, I don’t know, but plain as day I hear a voice, that answers my questions, and tells me things, I never imagined, it makes my life easier, why would I not want that?
Well, that's testable. Which is a good thing for a science-minded lot like us, and that's exciting! We could be witness to the first real evidence for the existence of god.
Please, jabwocky, ask him to tell you a little something about me - some fact that is really kind of uniquely me (i.e. name something pinned to my cork-board behind my monitor, what I have hidden in the bottom of my dad's old army trunk, etc.) so you can post it here. I can then verify the veracity of the claim, giving evidence of something like omniscience. That would be solid evidence.
I'm what would be classed a "weak atheist", meaning I where don't believe in any god, I don't claim to know that there is no god. So without that investment you can trust that if you get it right I won't lie about it.
I really look forward to this!

I look forward to it too, but alas god will not answer him. I mean if god proves himself to us why would we need faith. I second that challenge.

"Always seek out the truth, but avoid at all costs those that claim to have found it" ANONYMOUS

Posted on: March 30, 2008 - 6:31am #26

carx

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jabwocky wrote:I believe in

jabwocky wrote:

I believe in God, you believe in the absence of God. I have faith that I will live forever with God, you have faith in the fact that you become dust.

O this is a legendary amount of ling and self deception involved here but
1) You don’t believe this shit really
2) You know what will happen after death and I will prove this with cave man logic.

If you believe in this after life then why are you sad about the concept of your death and other people death ? If you religion and believes are true then you supposed to make a party if a loved one died (Hey they are in the best place ever now with god its celebration time ) and if you are afraid of your own death then you would be a suicide boomer or death. Since we don’t see this type of behavior you are not believing this ship buy simple deduction stop ling to yourself !

Ok lets throw away science puff , knowledge puff and level only memories and reason. Do you remember the time before you were born ? YE a big blackness without any thoughts and time so if we were in this state before we “Hade our body” we will return to this state state with no thinking and no memories. Ok today we name this state NOT EXISTING in this modern age and you have already experienced it.

NA we see you denying you own behavior and porously ling about your past experiences !

Boring learn to accept your own behavior and memories and stop reading super-magic-man

Warning I’m not a native English speaker.

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