prostitution

Medievalguy
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prostitution

Ok, so what is your opinion about prostitution? As you might know, NY Gov. Spitzer is in trouble because of a 1910 law against crossing state lines for prostitution. I bet that law was passed by the same bible thumpers who eventually got prohibition passed. I honestly don't see what is wrong with prostitution as long as the prostitute (male or female) is doing it of their own free will. If two people want to do it, I don't care, it's not my business. I don't see it as "immoral" b/c the whole idea of it being "wrong" comes from the church.


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I still have a rather

I still have a rather prudish view of anything sexual (leftovers from being brought up in a Catholic home). I like to think of sex as something special one saves for special someones, keeping it just a little rare and so making it even more of a sensual treat shared with someone you love. That's nothing more than a personal philosophy but it does leave me unable to really see why anyone would want to be a prostitute.

Still, I can't think of any rational reason to consider prostitution immoral. My moral compass is to measure the suffering. I can't see prostitution, in and of itself, causing suffering. Probably it even relieves some. Care needs to be taken, with an abiding interest in and knowledge of STDs and other blood born disease and to that end some regulation of it as a business may be necessary (which is tangential, sorry).

"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray


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who cares. Clean it up and

who cares. Clean it up and tax it nevada style.


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mr804 wrote:who cares. Clean

mr804 wrote:

who cares. Clean it up and tax it nevada style.

 

Regulation and taxation would be a good idea.  But do you really want the government mucking with your whores, you know officially?

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Octopus_Ink wrote:mr804

Octopus_Ink wrote:

mr804 wrote:

who cares. Clean it up and tax it nevada style.

 

Regulation and taxation would be a good idea.  But do you really want the government mucking with your whores, you know officially?

 

I am going to say yes, yes let the government regulate it, have the mandatory STD/HIV testing monthly, have the government give out free condoms, and have them tax it and take out the pimps and violence, have them drug tested as well, and provide means to improve themselves as well.


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No reason it shouldn't be

No reason it shouldn't be legal, period.


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I'm with the group on this

I'm with the group on this one....

As a father of four, I would hope my little girls would choose another career path...

But as long as they choose this of their own free will, and practiced safely in the profession, I would support their decision.

 

Thats not saying I would like it, but I would be there for them when they needed me.

 

I see no reason it should be any more illegal, than x rated film's....(thats sex for money also.)


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I don't get why it should be

I don't get why it should be illegal either.So a girl can be a huge slut and that's fine,but they can't do it for money?Sex is another commodity.The only reason to criminalise it would be religious ones.

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Loc wrote:I don't get why it

Loc wrote:

I don't get why it should be illegal either.So a girl can be a huge slut and that's finre,but they can't do it for money?Sex is another commodity.The only reason to criminalise it would be religious ones.

 

Just like the "no alcohol on Sunday law" separation of church and state my ass!

 

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Medievalguy wrote:Ok, so

Medievalguy wrote:

Ok, so what is your opinion about prostitution? As you might know, NY Gov. Spitzer is in trouble because of a 1910 law against crossing state lines for prostitution. I bet that law was passed by the same bible thumpers who eventually got prohibition passed. I honestly don't see what is wrong with prostitution as long as the prostitute (male or female) is doing it of their own free will. If two people want to do it, I don't care, it's not my business. I don't see it as "immoral" b/c the whole idea of it being "wrong" comes from the church.

I was gonna start a post about this & you beat me to it! Shocked

Think about it. Why aren't there an equal amount of male prostitutes out there servicing women? Think about that for a lil' while. We're wired differently & I don't care how much our feminist Sociology professors etc. want it to be different.

Plus, if xians took the time to read the Bible, they'd see that men visited "the gals" all day long (don't feel like being a research assistant today--headed to work, just look it up).  Also, for the recored, historically adultery is a married person getting it on with another married person.

 

 

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Definitely agree. It also

Definitely agree. It also seems places where it's legal actually have lower rates of STDs, rape, etc. The prostitutes also face much less violence.

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Did you ever notice how

Did you ever notice how people who campaign strongly against something turn out to be exactly what they campaign against? Like pastors that speak out strongly against homosexuals, turn out to be a big one. Politicians that campaign against corruption are usually very corrupt hypocrites.

 

Same thing is true of Christian churches speaking out against prostitution and brothels to make them illegal. They want sex for money to be illegal not to save our souls but rather to eliminate the competition. They need a monopoly to survive.

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Old joke:Sister

Old joke:

Sister Brigid was teaching her young students one day and she asked each of them what they would like to be when they grew up. She came to a little girl who responded, "When I grow up I want to be a prostitute."

Shocked, good Sister Brigid fainted on the spot. Her students rushed to revive her. When she came around, Sister asked the little girl, "What did you say you wanted to be when you grew up?" The little girl replied, "A prostitute."

"Oh thank goodness," the relieved nun replied "I thought you said a Protestant."

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MattShizzle wrote:Definitely

MattShizzle wrote:

Definitely agree. It also seems places where it's legal actually have lower rates of STDs, rape, etc. The prostitutes also face much less violence.

 

I was officemates with a guy from Iran about 20 yrs ago who told me back in pre-fucked up Islamic revolution Iran, prostitution was legal and regulated by the government.  And like the Shiz said above, apparently rape was practically non-existent.  Don't know if any of it was true or not(never bothered to research it), but I didn't see that my officemate had any reason to make it up.


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Come to think about it, I

Come to think about it, I have no idea why there are no male prostitutes! It seems so logical, there are assholes out there that try to sleep with as many women as possible, why not do it and get PAID!?!?! It's like a win win situation! It just doesn't make any sense.


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There are at least several

There are at least several subdivisions of prostitutes. From what I've read the ones involved with the organization that serviced Mr. Spitzer were paid thousands of dollars an hour. I'm pretty sure that most of them are totally in it for themselves. Over the last 15 or so years I've come into contact with literally thousands of prostitutes that are at the bottom of the "food chain". Almost all were/are drug addicted and fairly damaged mentally. They kind of remind me of zombies, walking dead. Very sad.

What goes on between consenting adults, and harms no one, even if it involves payments should be legal. I think some regulation would be a good thing though, for health and safety. If sex could be obtained legally maybe it would cut down on sexual slavery and the walking wounded. I just wish there was a solution to fixing the broken prostitutes that are only in it to feed a drug addiction or doing it against their will.

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Madmen fed on fear and lies, To beat and burn and kill"
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No Surprise

Wow, what a shocker that a group of people who have thoughts all are in favor of legalizing prostitution.

If anyone ever questions me as to why I think it should be legal I simply respond with "Why should it be illegal to sell something that's free to give away?"

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan


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Medievalguy wrote:Come to

Medievalguy wrote:
Come to think about it, I have no idea why there are no male prostitutes! It seems so logical, there are assholes out there that try to sleep with as many women as possible, why not do it and get PAID!?!?! It's like a win win situation! It just doesn't make any sense.
Where do you get the idea there are no male prostitutes?

Far fewer, certainly (especially excluding male prostitutes who service gay male customers). I'm not certain why this is. Perhaps a little bit of women being culturally inclined to be less sexually active and more guarded about who she chooses. Perhaps a bit of women not really needing to pay for sex with far more choices in willing men about than men have of willing women (though it sure would be nice to have professionals about who knows how to really bring pleasure to a woman >.>; ).

I wonder if, in cultures far less uptight about sex than the one I live in here in the USA and where prostitution isn't illegal (how many would that be?), if there is a greater population of males in the business? For that matter, is there anywhere in the world where males legally can be in that business?

"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray


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Sorry, you're right, I

Sorry, you're right, I missed typed. I don't think I can go back and edit my posts after I post them. I mean that I don't know why there aren't MORE male prostitutes, not "no". Sticking out tongue


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Loc wrote:So a girl can be a

Loc wrote:

So a girl can be a huge slut and that's finre,but they can't do it for money?Sex is another commodity.

Translation: You can use sex to get a car, tv, or maybe even just a free meal but apparently cash is where the line is drawn?!


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shelleymtjoy

shelleymtjoy wrote:
Translation: You can use sex to get a car, tv, or maybe even just a free meal but apparently cash is where the line is drawn?!
Me: "Why is being paid for sex a bad thing?"

Them: "It cheapens what should be beautiful."

Me: "That's odd, it sounds to me like payment makes it more expensive."

Them: *blank look*

I love irony.

"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray


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I don't have a problem with

I don't have a problem with prostitution. wouldn't be my first choice for a career but i'd probably find it preferable to starving while i watch my my children die in poverty covered in maggots or something...

I've read a lot of books about the nevada system.  For example, Albert's "Brothel: Mustang Ranch and Its Women." The condom requirement is pretty thoroughly implemented and the STD rates are so much lower than that in the general population.  Not that there weren't problems - as I recall the women were basically prisoners in the brothels - but i think legalization is a step in the right direction.

 


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I always thought it was

I always thought it was funny that paying people to have sex in front of a camera in the porn industry is fine, yet prostitution is illegal. Gambling in most states is now legal and leads to a self-destructive lifestyle that is much worse than prostitution could ever be. I say legalize it because any regulation of the "industry" makes it safer for everyone involved. Unfortunately the puritan heritage of our country cannot remove itself from what grown ups want to do behind closed doors.

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Medievalguy wrote:Come to

Medievalguy wrote:

Come to think about it, I have no idea why there [aren't more] male prostitutes! 

Um, there are quite a number of them, actually, and they're usually billed as "escorts".

Don't know if anyone brought this up yet, but sometimes becoming a prostitute is a matter of desperation. Not just "I need to buy drugs" desperation, like heavy-handed moralists will tell you, just a dire money situation for whatever reason. And prostitutes get picked on way more, since the men who pay for sex are often out for something a little less "gentle" than they have with their wives. I'd say it's a really good idea to make the government the pimp, since then the pimp is accountable. Otherwise, it's like drugs: you're paying organized crime.

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double post


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V1per41 wrote:If anyone ever

V1per41 wrote:

If anyone ever questions me as to why I think it should be legal I simply respond with "Why should it be illegal to sell something that's free to give away?"

Just like babies.


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Quote:Sorry, you're right, I

Quote:
Sorry, you're right, I missed typed. I don't think I can go back and edit my posts after I post them. I mean that I don't know why there aren't MORE male prostitutes, not "no". Sticking out tongue

In general, male prostitutes are only going to be useful to other males.  This is a result of our evolution, not of artificial or misguided culture.  Females are the selectors in our species.  Prostitution is essentially a way for males to temporarily become a selector.  When you go to the Bunny Ranch, they bring a bunch of women out, and you choose which one(s) you want, and they will pretty much always do it with you.

Furthermore, across cultures, gays, when given the freedom to do so, tend to have many, many more partners than lesbians, on average.  It appears that even when social norms are not an issue, gender norms tend to persist.  The net result is that where gays are not punished or prosecuted for being gay, prostitution is largely unnecessary, since on average, gays are willing to have sex for free.  This is because natural selection has always favored men who fathered as many babies as possible, and those that were able to successfully attract as many women as possible.

Furthermore, natural selection has always favored women who choose men who are commitment centered and essentially monogamous.  Again, across cultures, women are more turned on by emotional and symbolic displays than by physical images or the promise of commitment free pleasure.  Women, though they do like the physical aspects of sex, are genetically programmed to be more wary of sex than men.  If men choose wrong, they've wasted five minutes (if she's lucky) and a teaspoon or two of fluid.  If a woman chooses wrong, she's in a pretty bad spot for about fifteen to eighteen years.

Even though modern society has eliminated a lot of the actual concern over pregnancy, we are still using the same brains as when we were hunter-gatherers.  We've had somewhere around seven or eight hundred generations since we discovered agriculture.  It takes many thousands for any kind of significant adaptation to show up in significant portions of the population.  In other words, whether they can be as sexually aggressive as men now, women tend to remain sexually discriminating.

Thus, not nearly as many male prostitutes.

 

As far as my personal opinion on prostitution, I honestly have a rather fatalist view of it.  Because women have always selected men who were assertive (read: violent), they have caused a catch-22 for themselves.  Their own offspring are likely to survive better with an assertive, clever, and strong father, but so is everyone else's, and intraspecies competition will be fierce.  Because resources are limited, men's aggressive (violent) tendencies will be magnified because of the need to compete for both mates and food.  The result, as we've seen, is that when men got smart enough to farm, they figured out how to get rich.  When they figured that out, they figured out how to buy their competition's loyalty.  That led to armies.  Armies are made of men, and control populations.  If the men are in control, that leaves the women to be controlled.  As we've seen, ever since we invented civilization, women have been under the thumbs of men.

Though we are more egalitarian now than we have been for much of our 'civilized' history, we are still using the same brains.  The end result is that prostitution is one of the most effective ways for women to control a resource that only they possess.  The one thing we haven't been able to get any good research on is the emotional/physiological effects of prostitution.   The jury's still out as to whether or not long term emotional detachment or sexual dysfunction commonly results, or if there's an artificial guilt complex stemming from socio-religious indoctrination.

Of course, the flip side of this is that there are negative emotional and physiological consequences of joining the Army, and we still do that quite a lot as a species. 

From a cultural/legal point of view, I can't think of any reason why it should be illegal to sell something that you can give away for free.

 

 

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Quote:Just like

Quote:
Just like babies.

Touche...

Although, if someone wants a baby bad enough to buy one, maybe we ought to let them do it.  Feh... the whole adoption thing is so fucked to hell, buying and selling of babies is one of the least of our worries...

But that really is a whole different rant.

 

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Like just about anything

Like just about anything else, prostitution would be so much better off in accountable hands. Of course it should be legal, and regulated, and discussed (openly!)and objectively educated to people. Prohibition needs the same kind of treatment.

...That said, I don't buy the notion that making it legal will somehow 'solve' sex slavery and/or rape problems. The desire to rape someone stems from more than a simple desire for sex, and those profiting from sex slavery aren't going to simply evaporate into thin air because of new social standards (...besides that, I'd like to see some hard evidence that suggests countries with legalized prostitution have fewer rapes to begin with. I don't take 'my friend said' claims at face value).

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Quote:That said, I don't buy

Quote:
That said, I don't buy the notion that making it legal will somehow 'solve' sex slavery and/or rape problems.

Well, no.  That's because prostitution and sex slavery are opposite problems.  The 'problem' of prostitution is the problem of whether or not women should be able to willingly sell their sexual services.  The problem of sex slavery is men kidnapping women and forcing them to unwillingly perform sexual services.

Rape (excluding date rape) is usually not sexually motivated.  It is a violent crime usually committed by men with power issues.  Date rape, of course, is a completely different topic, since it so often involves alcohol and more nebulous circumstances.  (It wasn't unwanted while we were dry-humping, but when he put his hands down my pants, that was rape, etc...)  Then there are the cases where it is clearly rape that occurred on a date, and we wonder why it isn't just called "rape" instead of date rape... but that's another rant entirely.

Quote:
(...besides that, I'd like to see some hard evidence that suggests countries with legalized prostitution have fewer rapes to begin with. I don't take 'my friend said' claims at face value).

Countries with legal Prostitution/Rapes per capita/World Rank (#1 is most rapes per capita)

Australia/ 0.78/3

New Zealand/0.21/12

England/0.14/13

Canada/0.73/5

Netherlands/0.1/22

At first glance, this appears to make a damning case for legalized prostitution vs. rape, but there are nasty confounding factors.  Consider these countries which make the list, but fall far below Western countries in per capita rape:

Thailand, Malaysia, Russia, Colombia, Turkey, Japan, Hong Kong, Saudi Arabia.

All of these countries have statistics indicating that rape is almost non-existent, but the legal definition of rape is significantly different than in Western countries.  In Saudi Arabia, for instance, a husband can't possibly rape his wife because any sexual contact between husband and wife is immune from the charge of rape.  Japan, Thailand, Malaysia, and Hong Kong are all implicated in international sex trade, and all show virtually non-existent rape per capita.  Are we to say that because the sex trade clearly reduces rape that we should allow it?  The obvious answer is that the West categorizes and reports rape in significantly more female-friendly ways, so the number of rapes appears higher in more egalitarian countries.

Of course, that still leaves us with no accurate statistical data on the correlation (if it exists) between rape and prostitution.

From what I know of the psychology of rape, I honestly don't think there would be any significant correlation, but that's only an educated guess.

 

 

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As a Canadian citzen I was

As a Canadian citzen I was scratching my head at why you listed Canada as having legalized prostitution. I've always thought it was illegal in Canada because of the sting operations that happen all the time in Calgary to pick up street workers.

After doing some reading, apparently public solicitation and pimping is the only illegal part about it. Operating a brothel is illegal too, but not enforced in most cities as it provides a safer environment than doing housecalls.

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People always seem surprised

People always seem surprised when my facts check out.  That's a constant puzzle to me.

 

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Quote:After doing some

Quote:
After doing some reading, apparently public solicitation and pimping is the only illegal part about it. Operating a brothel is illegal too, but not enforced in most cities as it provides a safer environment than doing housecalls.

...And, without legal public solicitation, brothels and/or pimping, how do you figure prostitution can legally exist?

Calling it 'legal' in Canada is a tough sell. Girls are regularly removed from street corners by police, pimps and johns are regularly stung and there's a general public atmosphere of intolerance. It's not like I can walk over to a prostitute and purchase her services in plain sight of the police without facing serious consequences.  

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"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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Quote:...And, without legal

Quote:
...And, without legal public solicitation, brothels and/or pimping, how do you figure prostitution can legally exist?

As far as I can tell, and I did some pretty serious digging, the loophole is the housecall bit.  If I call somebody and they come to my house and I pay them for sex, or for that matter, if I go to their house, and it's not a business, there is technically not a law against it.  I don't really know much about income reporting, so I guess technically tax evasion might come into the picture, but there it is.

To be honest, I hesitated before including Canada, but I figured as soon as I did, Cpt_Pineapple would bust in here about it.   There is, technically, a way to legally prostitute in Canada, and you know how he loves his technicalities.

 

 

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Hambydammit wrote:People

Hambydammit wrote:

People always seem surprised when my facts check out.  That's a constant puzzle to me.

 

The rambo kitty suggests a shoot first, check facts later image. ~_^


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Quote:The rambo kitty

Quote:
The rambo kitty suggests a shoot first, check facts later image. ~_^

Don't give away all my secret psychological weapons!

 

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Quote:As far as I can tell,

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As far as I can tell, and I did some pretty serious digging, the loophole is the housecall bit.  If I call somebody and they come to my house and I pay them for sex, or for that matter, if I go to their house, and it's not a business, there is technically not a law against it.  I don't really know much about income reporting, so I guess technically tax evasion might come into the picture, but there it is.

So, what? You cold call people in the area until you find one that agrees (given that advertising for it is illegal)? The argument that it's 'technically not illegal' is stupid; there's no feasible means of finding a prostitute who doesn't solicit herself as one, and even assuming you did, you'd still get busted if the police found out you were doing it anyway. At that point, I doubt you'd find it very entertaining to try arguing law technicalities with the judge.

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"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

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Hambydammit wrote:In

Hambydammit wrote:

In general, male prostitutes are only going to be useful to other males.  This is a result of our evolution, not of artificial or misguided culture.  Females are the selectors in our species.  Prostitution is essentially a way for males to temporarily become a selector.  When you go to the Bunny Ranch, they bring a bunch of women out, and you choose which one(s) you want, and they will pretty much always do it with you.

It might be hard to back up these hypotheses with data. There really are a good number of male escorts, and they have female clients. The dynamic is certainly different, but making that point immediately to evolution is a bit of a jump. Also that gay men would *need* escorts when they live in a liberal city gives me the impression that you might not be from one.

Hambydammit wrote:
Furthermore, natural selection has always favored women who choose men who are commitment centered and essentially monogamous.

New studies of genetic diversity suggest otherwise. I originally read about the studies in the Smithsonian, so I'll source them properly, but genetic diversity seems to also need a "back-door man" of sorts. "Sneak mating" occurs quite a lot in nature, and there's no reason to believe that it hasn't through the course of history. Wealthy or powerful men have also always had the power of sexual selection.

Sexual behaviour is not as cut-and-dried as you present it.

 

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I never understood why it was illegal

I have never understood why a woman (or man for that matter) can give sex away, but if money is involved both people are committing a crime. The law seems to only be in place because of religious moralities.

What the Gov. of New York did is between him and his family, and no one else should have anything to say about it... at least not legally.

Come to think of it, how many other laws serve no purpose other then to enforce some type of religious based morals... Not being able to buy hard alcohol on Sundays springs to mind.


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Quote:So, what? You cold

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So, what? You cold call people in the area until you find one that agrees (given that advertising for it is illegal)? The argument that it's 'technically not illegal' is stupid; there's no feasible means of finding a prostitute who doesn't solicit herself as one, and even assuming you did, you'd still get busted if the police found out you were doing it anyway. At that point, I doubt you'd find it very entertaining to try arguing law technicalities with the judge.

Like I said, I hesitated to list Canada, but it kept showing up when I found articles about countries where it was legal.  In any case, the primary point I was trying to make is that the data you were asking about is not really available because of the difference in cultural attitudes and legal distinctions regarding rape.  If we believe the data, rape is significantly lower in places that have thriving sex slavery.

 

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Quote:It might be hard to

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It might be hard to back up these hypotheses with data. There really are a good number of male escorts, and they have female clients. The dynamic is certainly different, but making that point immediately to evolution is a bit of a jump. Also that gay men would *need* escorts when they live in a liberal city gives me the impression that you might not be from one.

It's hard to get data with low margins of error, but the historical and cross-cultural trend is crystal clear.  Yes, there are male prostitutes, and even some who service females, but for every one male-for-female prostitute, there are thousands of female-for-male.  Even if we allow for enough error that it's only hundreds, the tendency is undeniable.

I was not using evolution to prove the point.  I was showing that evolutionary theory backs up the data that already proved the point.

I didn't intend to say or imply that gay men need escorts.  In fact, that would kind of defeat my contention that male prostitutes are not as in demand as females.  I was trying to say that one of the reasons male prostitutes are rarer is that gay men don't need them as much as straight men need females.

Quote:
New studies of genetic diversity suggest otherwise. I originally read about the studies in the Smithsonian, so I'll source them properly, but genetic diversity seems to also need a "back-door man" of sorts. "Sneak mating" occurs quite a lot in nature, and there's no reason to believe that it hasn't through the course of history. Wealthy or powerful men have also always had the power of sexual selection.

You've obviously not read my essays on sexual behavior, or followed many of my discussions about it.  I'm pretty sure I ran off one of our mods because I would not let him get away with saying that humans are or have ever been primarily monogamous in practice. 

Everything that you're saying lines up exactly with my position on prostitution.

Just to be clear, my position (and I am pretty sure it's as current as it gets) is that human monogamy arises out of mutual jealousy, not out of sex drive.  Males, when they can, will have multiple mates.  Females, when they can, will often 'trade up' in secret while keeping a husband.

I started to type out a bunch of stuff pertaining to this, but then my brain kicked in.  Why don't you just read my essays first, and then if you think I've got something wrong about human sexuality, cite the study.

http://www.rationalresponders.com/what_science_says_about_human_sexuality

http://www.rationalresponders.com/on_myth_sexuality_and_culture

http://www.rationalresponders.com/whats_so_great_about_sex

http://www.rationalresponders.com/female_sexuality_and_origins

 

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Quote:Come to think of it,

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Come to think of it, how many other laws serve no purpose other then to enforce some type of religious based morals... Not being able to buy hard alcohol on Sundays springs to mind.

Careful with that "no purpose" thinking.  There most certainly is a purpose in prostitution laws, and it eventually goes back to the passing down of property.  I'm not saying that the reasons are clear today, or even that they're applicable, but even when a law is clearly religiously motivated, it is not without purpose.  I'd have to do some digging through books I haven't read recently, but I'm pretty sure I could make a case for there being at least two good reasons (from political points of view) to outlaw prostitution.

As for the blue laws prohibiting alcohol sale on Sundays, the reasons for this are less clear, but my own theory on this has to do with what I call the "Pleasure Principle."  He who controls the means to experience pleasure controls everything -- including the minds -- of his subjects.

 

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Wife, prostitute... what's the difference?

DrMarcus wrote:

I have never understood why a woman (or man for that matter) can give sex away, but if money is involved both people are committing a crime. The law seems to only be in place because of religious moralities.

What the Gov. of New York did is between him and his family, and no one else should have anything to say about it... at least not legally.

Come to think of it, how many other laws serve no purpose other then to enforce some type of religious based morals... Not being able to buy hard alcohol on Sundays springs to mind.

The basic biological contract between the sexes: "I will be your semen bag if you pay my rent." Sex-for-security is and has been the societal norm since we crawled up out of the mud and we women developed legs we could spread. Once men figured out that they had some role in the mysterious process of pregnancy and childbirth they wasted no time in finding ways to wrest control of women's reproductive power away from them. The curse of Eve was just the beginning...

Cash-for-cooze is so much more honest and above-board than the "morally righteous" marriage contract, but remains a "crime" due to its giving the control of the pussy to the person it's physically attached to rather than its "legal owner" (husband). Adultery is a sin/crime because it's considered the theft of one man's "property" by another - NOT because it's a betrayal of a husband by a wife. People forget this, or never knew it in the first place, because here in modern times marriage and sex have been romanticized beyond what was originally intended as the codification of which pussy belongs to whom (which never included the woman herself, of course).

Here in America, we use sex to sell everything from cars to hamburgers; but GAWD FORBID we actually sell sex... or use sex to sell sex (the porn industry comes to mind). It's mind-boggling (and infuriating)! However, the never-ending attempts by religionists to criminalize any behavior that gives people sovereignty over their sexuality have kept me busy fighting those efforts for nearly 30 years now; and although there have been a few victories for "my side," it's clear that I've much work left to do... and everyone needs a hobby, right? Eye-wink

"Blue laws" still exist everywhere: no-alcohol Sundays, laws against personal drug use, zoning (strip clubs and dildo stores), prostitution, gambling... pretty much any law proscribing anything related to "vice" has its roots in religion. If it involves physical or otherwise corporeal enjoyment, it's against God and therefore must be punished with all due haste.

 (edit: pussy as property - you beat me to it, dammit hamby! Laughing out loud)

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LOL... a little frustration

LOL... a little frustration there, obnoxious?

The only thing I'm going to take issue with is this:

Quote:
Adultery is a sin/crime because it's considered the theft of one man's "property" by another - NOT because it's a betrayal of a husband by a wife.

Granted, I cannot prove with 100% certainty that culture is a product of our nature, not a corruption of it, but it is certainly a parsimonious explanation.  That being the case, we are forced to consider the option that the ubiquitous proscriptions against adultery represent something more ancient, and thus predating concepts of property ownership.

I suppose we could haggle over the definition of property, but in a pre-agricultural community, before man figured out that sex led to babies, all the evidence suggests that men and women still got jealous of each other's sexual excursions.

What I'm getting at is that our anger at discovering we have been cheated on doesn't come from our conditioning by culture.  It comes from our instincts, and so cannot be blamed entirely on the five or six hundred generations of humans who figured out how to subjugate women with laws.  Out of the 200,000 years or so that humans have been around, 'civilized' property rights and the subjugation of women have been around for oh, about 3% of the time.  There's more to it than society.

 

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Hambydammit wrote:LOL... a

Hambydammit wrote:

LOL... a little frustration there, obnoxious?

Frustration, perhaps... but definitely regret! At the ripe old age of 45, I finally realize that I totally fucked up by not taking advantage of the ability to monetize my "precious gift." I should have at least held out for an apartment, jewelry, gifts, or even skilled labor, if not cold, hard cash! If only I hadn't fallen prey to romantic notions, I might have realized I was sitting, quite literally, on a gold mine! This is a lesson I will NOT let my daughter learn for herself. I've told her, "As soon as you stop saying, 'No', you lose ALL of your power. Forget love, romance and all that bullshit... concentrate on the power and the value of your sexual favors and be miserly with them. NEVER give away something for nothing - anything worth having is worth proving yourself deserving of it. Make him prove he's worthy, and make the test really difficult!"

Hambydammit wrote:

The only thing I'm going to take issue with is this:

Quote:
Adultery is a sin/crime because it's considered the theft of one man's "property" by another - NOT because it's a betrayal of a husband by a wife.

Granted, I cannot prove with 100% certainty that culture is a product of our nature, not a corruption of it, but it is certainly a parsimonious explanation.  That being the case, we are forced to consider the option that the ubiquitous proscriptions against adultery represent something more ancient, and thus predating concepts of property ownership.

I suppose we could haggle over the definition of property, but in a pre-agricultural community, before man figured out that sex led to babies, all the evidence suggests that men and women still got jealous of each other's sexual excursions.

What I'm getting at is that our anger at discovering we have been cheated on doesn't come from our conditioning by culture.  It comes from our instincts, and so cannot be blamed entirely on the five or six hundred generations of humans who figured out how to subjugate women with laws.  Out of the 200,000 years or so that humans have been around, 'civilized' property rights and the subjugation of women have been around for oh, about 3% of the time.  There's more to it than society.

I'm more than happy to concede the point, simply on the grounds that you've obviously studied the issue much more thoroughly than I, in more areas of discipline. Everything I know (or think I know, ha!) is the result of self-education, so I'm in no way an expert or a scholar by any stretch of the imagination.

Hmmm... maybe I should've held out for a formal education. Shit, my skill at fellatio alone would likely have covered 4 years at Yale, dammit!

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Hambydammit wrote:Careful

Hambydammit wrote:

Careful with that "no purpose" thinking.  There most certainly is a purpose in prostitution laws, and it eventually goes back to the passing down of property.  I'm not saying that the reasons are clear today, or even that they're applicable, but even when a law is clearly religiously motivated, it is not without purpose.  I'd have to do some digging through books I haven't read recently, but I'm pretty sure I could make a case for there being at least two good reasons (from political points of view) to outlaw prostitution.

OK. Perhaps I was too cavalier with the statement of 'No Purpose'. But just because someone, somewhere, can find a reason or value behind some law or prohibition, does not mean there is a value to society, and that's more of what I was thinking.

And remember, we are not talking about people having sex, just that no money can pass between the couple in exchange for sex. I can still have sex with a prostitute, get her pregnant, whatever...

I've always wondered... If I offer to have you over to my house for a very expensive dinner, say $1500, and then give you a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, after which, and obviously with no connection, you have sex with a girl I let stay at my house... Is that illegal?


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Hambydammit wrote:Everything

Hambydammit wrote:

Everything that you're saying lines up exactly with my position on prostitution.

Just to be clear, my position (and I am pretty sure it's as current as it gets) is that human monogamy arises out of mutual jealousy, not out of sex drive.  Males, when they can, will have multiple mates.  Females, when they can, will often 'trade up' in secret while keeping a husband.

Absolutely - I think my comments came out of a misread of your post. You seemed to be oversimplifying, but I see now that you were just summarizing for the purpose of the current discussion. My mistake.

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How prostitution is immoral

I think that as a rule prostitution is immoral.  I think there are clear and specific reasons for this. 

 

First of all, I would like to acknowledge that there are male are prostitutes too.

 

Given the notion that the standards for morality are based on the idea of creating and avoiding suffering, I think that it is clear that prostitution DOES cause suffering.

 

First off, there is the risk of disease.  Taking risks that may hurt the people around you is immoral.  Most people who engage in prostitution have sexual relationships outside of the prostitute-john relationship.  Even with govenrment health standards (like in Nevada) there are risks involved.  This is immoral, because the behavior of each of us is dependant on each other.  Disregaurding your own health is immoral treatment to those who love you.

 

Secondly, human beings are pretty clearly wired to create social and emotional bonds around sex.  This means that as you enage in prostitution everyone involved is abusing this capacity for attachment.  This can result in difficulty forming attachments in other parts of your life.  In addition, one is likely to suffer "post coital depression" as a result of these meaningless sexual encounters.  This is more suffering as well.

 

As a counselor, most people I have treated who employ prostitutes do so while they are in another sexual relationship.  They do it because htey want a verity of sex partners and this is a way to do it.  This is decietful and dishonest, and very, very human.  It is, by any measure, immoral however.  Similarly, prostitutes tend to have strong emotional issues, as they have learned to treat their most intimate sense of emotional connection and identity to turn a buck.

 

Finally, there is shame that people feel around the behaviour.  Some would argue that this is a cultural phenomena, but I don't think so.  If you are using sex to make money, then you have basically conceded that you have nothing to offer society that is more valuable than your sexuality.  This is a reasonable source of shame in my book.  Similarly, with the john.  He needs to use money to get sex.  Kind of says something about your reproductive options doesn't it?

 

One must weigh these considerations against the moral consequences of being extremely lonely and sexually frustrated, which is another form of suffering that prostitution may aleviate.  One must also weigh them against the need for money, and the things it can provide.

 

So is prostitution immoral?  Yes.  Are there worse things you could do?  Absolutely.  Does it make you a bad person?  No, but I sure wouldn't want MY daughter to do it.

 

 


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Quote:Given the notion that

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Given the notion that the standards for morality are based on the idea of creating and avoiding suffering, I think that it is clear that prostitution DOES cause suffering.

Simply tossing out "avoiding suffering" as a basis of morality is both simplistic and naive.  I don't know of any competent ethicists who would suggest such a thing.  With only "avoiding suffering" as a motive, I can suggest that genocide is moral, since two minutes in the gas chamber is substantially less suffering than would be suffered by the average human being in fifty years of life.

Obviously, such a statement is ludicrous.  Morality is the interplay of the well-being of one person as weighed against the well-being of another, and reduced suffering is most certainly not the end goal in all situations.

Quote:
First off, there is the risk of disease.  Taking risks that may hurt the people around you is immoral.

Please, stop driving this very instant.  NEVER, EVER get behind the wheel of a car again!  Whether you realize it or not, your chances of dying painfully in a car crash are much higher than your risk of dying painfully from an STD, particularly if you practice safe sex.  Condoms are well over 90% effective in completely preventing the spread of STDs.  Seatbelts, on the other hand, just seek to minimize the damage if you are in a crash.

Quote:
Disregaurding your own health is immoral treatment to those who love you.

Please, for the love of God, NEVER, EVER drink, smoke, or overeat.  Don't eat any processed sugar.  Eat only fresh, unprocessed foods, and never fry.  Don't expose your skin to the sun.  Don't live anywhere near a big city.  The air pollution is a blatant risk to your own health.

Quote:
Secondly, human beings are pretty clearly wired to create social and emotional bonds around sex.

Ah.  I love this one.  The old, "Women can't have sex without wanting a relationship" argument.  The funny thing is, men invented this.  It turns out, it's not as clear cut as you suggest.  Yes, humans do form relationships based on sexual intimacy, but they also, across cultures, throughout history, have sex without forming relationships -- both for money and not for money.

Furthermore, there's little compelling evidence to suggest that the emotional harm from engaging in casual sex (assuming that in any instance it causes emotional harm) is particularly worse than say, working at a demeaning and low paying job for fifty hours a week for twenty years.

Quote:
In addition, one is likely to suffer "post coital depression" as a result of these meaningless sexual encounters.  This is more suffering as well.

You're very good at recounting the public's opinions about prostitution, but you're not producing scientific information.  What does "likely" mean?  Are people in lukewarm relationships also likely to have post coital depression?  If they are, should they stop having sex?  What are the long term consequences of post coital depression?  Are they a primary cause of more serious mental disorders, or are they relatively benign in otherwise healthy people?  What percentage of people suffer from this?  What confounding variables are present in the studies, such as societal stigma and religious belief?

Quote:
As a counselor, most people I have treated who employ prostitutes do so while they are in another sexual relationship.

May I ask what kind of counseling certificate you have?  Or do you have a degree in psychology?

If you have been trained in psychology, why aren't you citing studies and scientific correlations?  You're essentially right, but your absolutist attitude is, well, rather unscientific.  How do you justify this?

(I have to go now.  I'll address the rest later.

 

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Susac wrote:I think that as

Susac wrote:

I think that as a rule prostitution is immoral.  I think there are clear and specific reasons for this. 

I believe your argument is against having non-monogamous sex, not against prostitution. All of the events and detractors you mention happen regardless of money or goods being exchanged.

My point is that paying for sex (and every married man knows we pay for sex one way or another) doesn't increase the chance of hurt feelings, disease, or any other problems.

If I have sex with a woman it's not illegal. If I pay her to have sex with me it IS illegal. If I pay her to have sex with me while we video tape the activity and sell the porn, it's no longer illegal.


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Ok, so what is your opinion

Ok, so what is your opinion about prostitution?  ////   ummm ????

I LOVE IT        kindly help it !  Make it all nice .....     Fuck me GOOD ! 

I will share my fortunes with you ......  and thanks .....