Blind Faith verses Revealed Faith.
Offline The reason why Atheism and Christianity finds it so difficult to find a common ground for discussion is that Atheism is a Blind Faith wheras Christianity is a Revealed Faith. Individually neitehr can be proven. The criteria each uses is so completely different that it is like talking apples and oranges. This conversation was started in a Live Chat so I will clip it here:
bibledoor: I am age challenged. LOL. 48 but somehow the younger dudes are more adept. hherbzilla: haha. ain't that the truth! bibledoor: I attended an Atheist / Christian debate on Saturday. THe guy defending Christianity was in his 80's. This gives me hope. Has anyone heard of "Dave Hunt" * Rook Hawkins joined the room. bibledoor: Rook trying to connect with you. Whitefox is my handle.http://bibledoor.no-ip.org/pdf/eng_chicken_or_the_egg_sm.pdf
This article is my proof from science for God. It is very ineresting how science proves its own falacy. jcgadfly: and yet you're depending on science to prove God? bibledoor: No just showing by quoting it how absurd it can be. These guys published in 3 major papers their findings that the Egg was first and gave their scientific reasons why. jcgadfly: Oh...I thought you had to resort to science to prove God because religion has done such a poor job of it bibledoor: That is becasue Religion requires "Revealed Faith" wheras Science requires "Blind Faith". The two are incompatible. Both are illusive. Rook Hawkins: How does science require blind faith? bibledoor: You will get a chuckle if you read the article. jcgadfly: not sure where you get science being blind faith. all those experiments with repeatable results achilles308: sounds like someone has no understanding of the meaning of science Rook Hawkins: Indeed jcgadfly: tends to make that false Rook Hawkins: Gee...Here is an idea...if you want to test if air exists, you can stop breathing for a while and hold your breath and see what happens after 5 minutes bibledoor: Rook: Science is faith in something you didn't see. Religion is faith in something revealed by a God that no-one has seen. Rook Hawkins: Science - the value of testing a hypothesis. Bible...you can see the results of science jcgadfly: rather than wating for your God to decide to reveal stuff, science takes the risk and looks for itself Rook Hawkins: Like I saidyou can't see air, but want to prove that it is there? Stop breathing bibledoor: I am refering specifically to the science of origins. Rook Hawkins: it doesn't matter what science you're talking about you can still see results in ANY science Visit the natural history museaum and look at the transitional fossils bibledoor: No one saw it. But science beleives it. Wheras No one has seen God but they believe him. jcgadfly: where is the faith different then? Rook Hawkins: go to a lab where they are preparing pharmeceutical medicines - it is entirely based on the fact that evolution happens jcgadfly: God depends on people not knowing bibledoor: The only proof Christianity has is the Revelations of "the word of God" that is why I call it revealed faith. Faith in the possiblilty that God revealed himself. hherbzilla: yes - if that's a live question jcgadfly: "Blessed are they who have not seen (don't know) and believe hherbzilla: hear you bibledoor: Never proved it between species, just within species regarding evolution. Gods Word reveals that God set bounderies between Species. "According to their kind" etcetra. But I admit to evolution within a species. We just have to look at dog breeding as an example. * Rook Hawkins left the room. (After this the chat room froze.)
jcgadfly: where is the faith different then?
God says "Come let us reason together, though your sins be as scarlet you shall be white as snow."
www.truthiswhatmatters.com & www.bibledoor.com
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The prophecy in that document was calculated after the fact. Are there any that were figured out before the actual event occurred?
From a soliology point these end times verses and the entire bible is interesting and "revealing" of our human nature. Making religion dogma out of it is also "revealing" of our stupidity etc. The end times have come and gone many times.
End time ideas are many and varied.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End_times
Preterism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End_times#Preterism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preterism
That "god of abe" is a lousy communicator, what a stupid bad god
When ya get down to the nitty gritty, God of abe worship is akin to devil and idol worship, and oh so truely "sinful" (wrong). "Jesus" would be upset at you religious dogma "fools" and "hypocrites".
This all troubles me deeply ......
Atheism Books.
Fair enough. Thanks for the clarification.
But the Jews have been in and out of Jerusalem many times. They were in Jerusalem between the prophesies of Jeremiah and when they were kicked out by Hadrean. They were allowed by Muslim rulers back into Jerusalem from about 640 to about 1100, when the Crusaders sacked Jerusalem and killed the Muslims and Jews. Does a prophesy really mean anything if the description of the event happens several times throughout history?
But during Jesus' lifetime, it was. God had already wiped out all life on earth once, in the flood. So that part of the prophecy doesn't mean much, either, as it had been established that God was more than willing to wipe out life on earth and start over.
It doesn't appear to refer to nuclear war, anyway. It seems to say that with all the earthquakes, war, famine, pestilence, and whatnot, everything on earth would die off if it went on long enough. "Except those days be shortened..." means that (as I read it), if it went on, everything would die. In a nuclear holocaust, the world would be destroyed within a matter of hours, not days; and the survivors would die no matter what. So, it seems that people are reading the whole nuclear ability into it.
Just an aside: even before WWII, there were people writing about the possible nuclear destruction of the entire planet. One very fun one is Triplanetary, by E.E. Doc Smith. This was published in 1934. Not that it matters, because 1934 is still well after the prophecy. I just thought I'd mention.
Do you mean Revelation 13:16-18?
In that, it is a single mark. And, it's been possible for many, many years. In fact, there have been many times in history when trade was regulated, and people needed the mark of a king to buy and sell. This practice is well-established. Currently, it's impossible to do business in most countries without the mark of the government.
So, what this seems to say is that there will be one world ruler. And, near as I can tell, though some might like to rule the world, it hasn't happened yet, and it doesn't look probable in the near future.
In fact, that prediction was much more likely to come true when it was made, back when Rome ruled much of the known world.
I politely disagree. Our generation is hardly the first to be arrogant, and selfish, and greedy. I'd say we're no more selfish or greedy than any other age in the past. Certainly no more so than Rome.
And self-love is safe love.
Excellent! Now we're getting somewhere, Specific predictions for a specific timeframe. Matthew 24:34 says, "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."
This is the prophesy to which I refer in my last post. Jesus talks about the catastrophes and bad weather and whatnot, and then he says, "It will happen within this generation."
Did that come true?
My ex-wife was convinced the end times were going to occur around Jan 1, 2000. I know it's only 8 years later, but things look no more grim than they did back when she thought that.
I guess I just don't read these things the way you do. They don't look very convincing to me, in that they read like Nostradamus, or Hal Lindsey. Vague statements, with nothing specific. And the one specific prophecy, the one that states outright that "all these things be fullfilled" in the generation to whom Christ spoke, that one didn't come true.
"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers
I read that book and there is absolutely nothing in it that would indicate foreknowledge of the future.
The language throughout the bible, including verses that are not claimed "prophecies" use exaggerated language to conflate the importance and it is a tactic of emotional appeal.
Name me one period in history where these things have not happened. Wars have always been a part of human history and land between nations have been disputed and wared over. Famine disease and earthquakes have always happened.
Saying, "This is going to be like nothing you have seen before" is a literary emotional tactic to conflate the importance of the character by the writer.
The Epic "Song of Rolland" Does the same thing when it describes the death of a patriot the others in the army 10,000 strong fell to their knees and wailed and wailed at his side over his loss.
What we do not see are DATES! 1948 or 1967 nor do we see words like Hammas or Nukes.
What sickens me is that you would use this scare tactic of |" THE SKY IS FALLING" to get people to join your club. You want to rush the end of the world, you want to make it happen.
And lets pretend PRETEND only, that your fiction was fact. I find your dim glim horrific world view of what Jesus says EXTREMELY SICK AND IMMORAL.
What kind of sick genocidal maniac God wants people to slaughter each other over his name? If you had two sons would you let them duel at 20 paces to compete for your love?
But it isn't even as simple as a duel is it? Not only will we froth in an orgy of violence worldwide, he will watch us starve and die horrible diseases. What about the billions of children in all this? Are you telling me that this final battle in which MOST of humanity, according to you, BILLIONS OF CHILDREN, not born into families believing in your god, will witness and be victim to your fatalistic "end times".
Are you telling me that God cant or wont be compassionate enough to his detractors as to not allow them to suffer? We don't treat people on death row the way your God is saying disentors will suffer. If he can "POOF" make the earth, then he should be able to "POOF" make us go away without suffering.
And according to you Israel becomes a nation, but what happens to Jews who die not accepting Jesus? That is sick too. You are using Jews to start a "final battle", but they don't get past the velvet ropes? According to your book. Not to me because I find the entire story of "end times" quite sick and fatalistic.
I am glad such a sicko isn't real. I am horrified that so many take Allah vs Jesus so seriously they, and people like you and your Muslim counterparts with their 12th Imam, will convince people that this is happening.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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WTF?!?!? NO! No, it doesn't sound like the Western Church, or why we left the church. It sounds like a pussy-ass, vaguery that could mean anything at anytime, in any context which means it is meaningless. Except for what YOU think it means.
This is religion in a nutshell. YOU making up the meaning from psuedo-intellectual phrases. You pretend they are important and so you struggle to find the meaning behind them - as if there is meaning behind them.
God-damn, I'm glad I'm not a Xian anymore - for fear of looking like this guy. What a waste of a life: to try to convince people that his Extreme Book Club is the greatest thing going, has all the answers and is magical. Any Sci-Fi book is better and has just as much meaning.
It is so sad that a bunch of charlatans 2000 years ago are still pulling the wool over peoples eyes. If this guy hadn't come across Christ-inanity, he would have been selling magnets, crystals, kaballah bracelets or some John Frum piece of crap.
It's sad to see people so dellusional and gullible - and arrogant as well (as he if knows the truth - what is he, God?! :roll
Imagine the people who believe such things and who are not ashamed to ignore, totally, all the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible was written. And it is these ignorant people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most unthinking among us, who would make themselves the guides and leaders of us all; who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us; who would invade our schools and libraries and homes. I personally resent it bitterly.
Isaac Asimov
White Fox, you need know my Jesus friend, he was atheist. I would not lie to you. What would I gain worth having ?
Kisses from my atheist jesus to you .... buddha too ! Get free .... and save an xian. Tell them the truth, that YOU don't know jack shit nothing much ..... REPENT NOW ..... 
stop the B.S.
Atheism Books.
My atheism is not a blind faith. My atheism is not faith at all. I have never encountered any evidence that convinces me there is any reason to actively believe in either the existence or non-existence of the divine, your account of biblical prophecy inclusive. First off, you have yet to conclusively demonstrate one of the core premises of your reading of prophecy:
Prove the historical existence of Jesus Christ. Once you do that, we can move on to interpretations of prophecy concerning such an individual. Until then, all your interpretations mean nothing.
"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid
A)Yes, they have found Jericho. No, they did not find 'the walls had fallen outward'. In fact, they found multiple cities, built on top of one another, dating back as far as 9,000 B.C. So there's your 'exception', just to pick one at random.
B)Noah. The ark. A wooden ship w/out iron reinforcements of that size does one thing, and one thing only: Sink. It cannot maintain its form due to the strain of its own weight, warps, leaks, buckles, and finally cracks and heads straight down. There's also the issue of just how much space that provides, contrasted to having to get 2 of every species (and 14 of every 'clean' species), along with enough food, fresh water, etc for them. Then you want us to believe that 8 people repopulated the entire world in under 1,000 years (after all, the Chinese calendar goes back over 4,000 years, too) including all of the ethnic/racial differences? And it still doesn't address the oft-asked question: what about fish? Freshwater fish can't survive in salt water, after all.
Just because archaeologists don't think someplace exists doesn't mean finding it proves everything said about it is true. Or do you believe that the discovery of Troy proves the existence of the god Ares?
"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid
And another exception:
Antarctic ice cores go back over 420,000 years. Every year leaves a stratum, so it's easy just to count each layer. Not that I'd want to count to 420,000.
We have sequences from petrified wood (which, as it turns out, is really just rock) that go back over 12,000 years.
There's absolutely no evidence for a young earth. And, archeologists have found much that is over 6,000 years old. So, I'm not sure where you get that there is "never an exception" to the Bibilical dating system.
My theist friend, I'm not sure from where you are getting your information-- but your source seems incorrect on many points. As I have pointed out before, my biggest beef with theism in general, and Christianity in particular, is that it leads many adherents to irrational thinking, and the belief in untrue things. I'm not talking about believing in God: I'm talking about believing that archeologists haven't discovered anything older than 6,000 years, or that we're not here because of the process of evolution.
By example, most Christians prove their religion is limiting, and delusional. (I single out Christianity only because it's the religion with which I am most familiar.)
Good luck with your search for Truth, Whitefox. I hope you find it, whatever it might be.
"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers
If things were reversed as the neck-bearded man says, the roles of these things in society would also be reversed. We would see no progress in technology and research, haphazard experiments that go nowhere, pilgrims crawling toward the image of an atom symbol on the cut end of a sappy branch. Religion, on the other hand, would become a science. There would be industries springing up based on reaping the rewards of appeasing the gods. We would be looking for the right combination of repentance and burnt offerings to cure gonorrhea, and there'd be weekly publications by the clergy about the efficacy of tithing versus confession in the treatment of plantar's warts.
So, what's the right combination of repentance and burnt offerings?
I need to know.
Fast.
"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers
Some of the ideas that I should follow up on are good. I plan to get back to you. My wifes dad is ina Coma due to advanced stage of Lou Body disease (worse that Altzheimers). Basically there is some stuff going on right now. I hope to read over the threads and please come up with more challenges for me in my absense. I hope to come back in a few weeks.
God Bless to those that want such blessing.
Ray,
God says "Come let us reason together, though your sins be as scarlet you shall be white as snow."
www.truthiswhatmatters.com & www.bibledoor.com
Do you kill atheists..... you should, your bible instructs you too.
hey NickB
"spot on" , as prophet rrs "prozacdeathwish" would say !
Atheism Books.
According to the Bible prophecy, what's the next thing that's supposed to happen, and when and where will it occur?
I would like to clarify that the prophecy of the jews gathering in Israel, states that all the tribes of Israel would return to israel....there are more jews living outside of israel than inside of israel.....so how do we verify that ALL the TRIBES have returned to israel? Toss that prophecy out.
Clamities and nature acting out.....as I posted earlier in another post, show me a time, a year, a decade a century in which nature didn't cause some form of natural disasters, from earthquakes, floods, hurricians/tsunamis, volcanos, famines, diseases (both natural and of course we cannot forget man induced) and droughts, can you please show me a time in history which none of these occurred throughout the world. Because the end of the 19th century was the end of times and there was lots of wars, natural disasters around the world, famine, pestilence etc, etc, etc, all the signs where there. BECAUSE THEY ARE SO VAGUE THEY CAN BE USED AT ANY TIME THROUGHOUT HISTORY!.