ATHEISTS! I need your help!
Offline Hey guys
I have this friend of mine who is a Christian that thinks he knows everything right. He's smart and all, but when it comes to religion, he's always right no matter what. And everytime I debate with him, he always tries to put me down, he's always trying to make me look stupid. Even though I disprove his arguments, he keeps turning it around and bringing up other things like "ohh why is the majority of the world Christian", and "atheists are fucking stupid", and stupid shit like that. He's a good guy and all, but when he argues about this he's a total fuckhead.
He started talking to me on MSN yesterday and this is how the convo went: http://arach.net.au/~jlipari/argument.doc
Every single argument we have always ends up with, "well how can everything always exist, there had to be a start".
What are some points I can throw at him that will really make him go, "fuck hes right, hes got a good point". I want him to feel stupid!
Please guys, any suggestions to what I can throw in his face?
Thanks heaps
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I didn't read the document but from this one question he needs to explain several things.
First, he needs to clarify what he means by "always". "Always" is time referential. I can't see how anyone can say that time hasn't "always" existed as this would require a time before time. Such a thing is self contradictory.
Second, he needs to clarify what he means by a start and why his god doesn't require one if other things do. Also, along this line, if there is no such thing as before the beginning then the start is the beginning and it makes no sense to ask what came before it. I think that the first cause arguments makes an unsupported assumption that there is such a thing as before the universe. this is not to say that I think it is okay to assume that the universe came from nothing, just saying that there is no reason to think that there is any such thing as before the universe.The universe could very well have existed eternally, or for all of time, in some form or another and to speak of before time is incoherent.
Lastly, he is actually suggesting what he is arguing against. he is suggesting that his god, which would be everything in any relevant sense, has always existed. So how can he argue that everything could not have always existed? He is arguing against his own position.
“Philosophers have argued for centuries about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, but materialists have always known it depends on whether they are jitterbugging or dancing cheek to cheek" -- Tom Robbins
Mmm yeah, I've actually said that to him a few times. I've asked him who created god, and he replies with "no one, he always existed", and I reply with, well why can't the universe have always existed. Yet he just can't comprehend it, he doesn't want to believe it, he wants to believe theres something else. But he does so, with no evidence at all, he doesn't know the answer, so hes making one up, but is taking everyones word for it because there are so many others that believe the same thing he does.
In his eyes, he sees the God creation story, to be more accurate than just to say, "the universe always existed", he sees this as irrational, when in fact he doesn't realize what he just said. He just said "a big invisible magical man in the sky made it all you idiot!"
Baah, it makes me so angry!
Yes. This is why I usually try not to propose alternate explanations with those who use this type of argument, but instead try to simply show the flaws in the proposed argument. You don't need to give an alternate explanation to show that his argument does not lead to establishing the existence of a god. You simply need to show that his argument does not necessarily support his conclusion.
In truth, his god explanation probably is just as rational as saying the universe always existed, but it is nowhere near as rational as saying we simply have no way of knowing at this point in time how the universe came to be or if such a question even makes sense. The major point is that the existence of the universe is in no way establishes his god which is what those employing this type of argument are trying to do.
“Philosophers have argued for centuries about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, but materialists have always known it depends on whether they are jitterbugging or dancing cheek to cheek" -- Tom Robbins
Tell him to go sacrifice a goat to his pagan god like a good little primitive.
First off, the majority of the world is not christian. True there are more people that claim christianity than any other religion, however only 1 in 3 make this claim. Well, then you have to ask what constitutes a christian. Many don't count catholics as true christians and they represent about half. By disenfrachising half of the worlds christians they reeally become a minority.
Secondly, according to standard scientific law, matter cannot be created nor destroyed, so matter must have always existed? Science never claims absolute truth where religion most always does. The problem is people do not understand science in America.
I won't even touch on the name calling because it is a tactic of a weak mind. We all resort to it from time to time and it is counter-productive to rational debate.
"Always seek out the truth, but avoid at all costs those that claim to have found it" ANONYMOUS
The major problem with this debate is our currently rather limited knowledge, which opens up the way to plenty of crackpot philosophical ideas and illogical conclusions, as it has throughout human history. What we do know is that our universe did have a start - approximately 13.7 billion years ago is our best estimate. The Big Bang Theory is undergoing some revisions now under the weight of M-theory. Just what is the singularity? How did it come about? Do we even need one to explain the creation of this universe? Are there extra dimensions? These are just some of the questions that need to be answered scientifically before we know how our universe came into existence, and as long as they remain unanswered, I'm afraid you and your friend will keep arguing for a long time. Well, you'll still argue after that too, of course, because historically religion seems to have precariously survived the onslaught of scientific discoveries that challenged the conventional wisdom of faith.
The main point is that, until we have a complete theory to describe the physical world and everything in it, there may be things out there that violate our normal instincts that we do not know about. Quantum mechanics revolutionized our conceptions of the world, and it's very possible (and likely) that some new theory will come along and do the same thing. Maybe something can come from nothing. For now, who knows? The laws of physics dictate human experiences, not the other way around.
Bottom line: if your friend asks, "who/what created the universe?" and other questions with similar themes, don't venture an answer that more than likely would be philosophical and wrong; just say that it's currently being investigated and that eventually we will have a resolution to that problem. Your friend probably thinks - in line with other religious people - that certainty makes right, or something like that. But you don't have to fall into that trap; he can repeat his mantra about god creating the universe a million times and it still won't make it true.
This is not a question that logic, theology, or philosophy can solve. You two can debate this endlessly, but unless we know the underlying physical theories and mechanisms, it's all hogwash. I'd hate to recite a quasi-Christian precept, but for atheists, patience is a virtue in this scenario.
"The greatest conquests, the ones that leave no regrets, are those wrested from ignorance." - Napoleon
Christians are majority, what christian is he exactly if he wants to go by numbers, then play that game, are Roman Catholics christians to him? If not....take away 1.2 billion, if he is catholic, then take away protestants (as the Roman Catholic church does not recognize them as christians) take awy 624 million and then you can narrow it down even more, from each sect of christianity. Then if you are taking away catholic, then muslims are the next largest number which is about a 1 billion followers, and yet again you can do this by sects, because we all know there is division in islam as well. Majority doesn't exactly rule when it comes to faith since evidence doesn't mean squat to faith.
If your friend is so positive he's right then he has nothing to fear by coming on this board and telling us how right he is. We'll tear his arguments apart word by word.
Nah he didnt come on this board, he told me that over MSN, but always argues with me in person, just won't take anything I say seriously, he thinks hes always right no matter what, and that I'm stupid, and I was the only atheist in my year, and he thought i was crazy, makes me so angry. I even told him to watch Zeitgeist, he loved it, everything except the religion part! He says "we've never heard of all these other jesus gods until today, they just made them all up, theres heaps of archielogical evidence for Jesus, so its full of shit! How am I meant to argue with that, I gave him the evidence, and he just simply doesnt want to believe it! It's like saying, "look up, the sky is blue!", and he'll say, "err your full of shit, the sky has never been blue until today".
Ask him to produce the "heaps of archaeological evidence for Jesus" for you. We'll be happy to help you sort and catalog it all. This will be a landmark discovery for the ages!
These are the answers I'd give:
For all we know, maybe my cat created the universe last Thursday. We can't prove he didn't, after all.
Why don't you just say something like....
Yes I understand science does not have an answer to what caused the big bang. But science never actually says there is no God or it is impossible for a higher being to exist. Science is based on evidence, all the evidence we have tells us that the Universe formed from a single point of highly condensed matter that exploded and began expanding outwards. We have no evidence of a God or a creator of any kind existing.
The question is, is it possible that your God was the catalyst for the big bang? Sure it is, however it is just as possible that the Hindu God was the catalyst, or the flying spaghetti monster.
It is ignorant to say just because we do not know what happened it must be the work of some magical being with super powers. It is even more ignorant to assume beyond all doubt that it must be the magical being that your parents believe in. There is no evidence for your God, your entire belief system is based on a single book, none of which’s contents can be verified. We have historical evidence of the life of commoners 3000 years ago yet when it comes to the supposed Son of God 2000 years ago we have nothing but the bible.
Humans have an overwhelming need to believe in something bigger and greater. 5000 years ago we did not know what the Sun was, so what did the Egyptians do? They said it was a fiery God named Ra. It is human nature to give supernatural explanations for things we do not understand. Today we know the Sun is a big ball of gas and all of those ancient Egyptians who were probably just as adamant and committed as you, were all wrong. What they did is they took something they could not explain and called it God. That is exactly what you are doing and it exactly what people like you have been doing for millennia. If Egypt hadn’t of fallen we would probably be arguing if RA was real right now.
The fact is from the very beginning of the bible your worship you can see a complete lack of understanding of our universe. What you see are the kind of guesses a person with no concept of the universe would make. For example, the bible describes the universe as a flat piece of earth sitting on pillars with a large dome (sky) covering it that has little lights (stars) attached. The bible then goes on to say that beyond that dome is heaven. The bible even says that humans can build a tower to heaven and they did. These days we know that it is much more complex than that, we know it’s a globe that sits in space and is surrounded by other planets. We also know that we cannot build a tower to heaven, we shoot rockets up through the clouds frequently and all we find is space.
One of the most telling aspects of the story of creation is the reference to the Moon as a lesser light. If we did not understand our Solar system we would obviously assume that the Moon produced light. Today we know that the Moon simply reflects the suns light. So right there on the first page the bible a critical error is made and it doesn’t stop. The bible is riddled with passages that show a lack of understanding of nature, animal life, the cosmos and human physiology. For example the bible suggests that schizophrenics are possessed by demons. If you know nothing about the brain then sure demons are the logical answer. Today we know it is simply a chemical in balance in the brain that can be rectified with drugs.
The bible is a book that was supposedly written by the creator of the universe. A creator that shows no understanding of his own creation, like a man creating a car and saying it runs on magic. You ask why I do not believe?, How about you ask yourself why you believe.
If Jesus was born today he would be institutionalized as a schizophrenic with delusions of grandeur.
I'd like to second that. Any photos of just about anything that points to an actual Jesus would be great. Tacitus isn't a first-hand account, neither is Josephus' (even if it weren't the most ridiculous forgery). Anything at all would be good, actually.
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence
He clearly needs to be better educated in the area of science. As for the (lack of) evidence for Jesus, I'd recommend reading Rook's excellent article here:
http://www.rationalresponders.com/jesus_mythicist_position_revised_2008
Most people tend to just assume that Jesus was real because so many people accept it, and there's a lot of misinformation out there, but when you look into it you find there isn't really much in the way of evidence.
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Faith is not a virtue.
This is going to be awesome! No one's been able to really prove this stuff before. We'll just have to sort through the "heaps", write a nice paper, and I'm smelling Nobel prize.
In terms of actually valid, scientific evidence...
His argument is: if something is presently unknown, the lack of information somehow supports my stance. But he doesn't explain how his position is specifically arrived at. It's an ad ignorantum fallacy, an argument from ignorance.
I've yet to look into it enough to speak with certainty on the subject (though I think Rook's article will be a great place to start). I have heard claims of evidence, but haven't seen any that hasn't been refuted, and there is evidence that suggests he didn't exist. The fact that I haven't seen any evidence that hasn't been refuted doesn't mean it doesn't exist though, so at this point I'm open to the possibility of there being an historical figure that was the original basis for the Jesus myth.
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Faith is not a virtue.
Thanks a million guys!!! I really appreciate it. This is gonna be awesome throwing it in his face!
"ohh why is the majority of the world Christian"
Tell him hes a fucking dumbass and should look at the demographics of the world, 2 billion out of 6.5 billion people are xtian, NOT a majority. Add to that about 1 billion are catholic and the other orthodox or protestant, so tell him he's probably in the minority EVEN amongst xtians, let alone the world. Mention that there are 1.1 billion non-religious, atheist and agnostic in the world, tell him to march his ass over to adherents.com if he doesn't believe it.
"well how can everything always exist, there had to be a start"
Tell him he's a fucking dumbass again and point out to him the 4 fundamental forces of the universe, strong, weak, gravity and electro-magnetic force. Also mention that E=mc^2 means that matter and energy are interchangeable but CANNOT be destroyed or created. Also point out that M-theory has a very good and mathematically sound description of the cause of the big bang. Tell him he should read the bible less and science books more to avoid looking like a retard.
Also point out to him that saying "I don't know gawd must have dun it" is a total nonsequitur.
Studio7manga.com
how can everything always exist, there had to be a start"?
Well how can the god always exist, there had to be something or a someone to start the making/creation of the god - oh wait that would be man. Actually the god was invented/ imagined by the imagination, fears, insecurities, means of order, etc etc of humans. If he claims the god always just existed then he shouldn't claim the universe - matter couldn't always exist. Just because he doesn't know what started it all that doesn't excuse belief in something he cannot explore, test, see, touch, hear outside of his own imagination.
isn't it ironic at how Christians pride themselves in humility
yet are the first to raise the hand when asked a question of
a field they know nothing about?