Deductive Argument in Support of Atheism

AtheistAviB
AtheistAviB's picture
Posts: 71
Joined: 2007-06-07
User is offlineOffline
Deductive Argument in Support of Atheism

P1) There are things which are unproven/unable to be proven.
P2) To believe in something that is not proven is illogical.
P3) Illogical beliefs are inconsistent with a valid worldview.
P4) It is best to abstain from belief in that which is unproven/unprovable.
P5) God is unproven/unprovable.
_______________________________________________________________
P6) Therfore, it is best to abstain from belief in God as it is illogical

 


Recrudescent
Posts: 8
Joined: 2008-02-25
User is offlineOffline
As an atheist, I agree with

As an atheist, I agree with the general spirit of your argument, but I'll offer some critiques just so you can think about sharpening it up. It looks logically valid, but, of course, that doesn't necessarily make it nomologically sound. What complicates the argument is the cryptic meaning of some of the phrases, but since this is a larger problem present in all natural languages, I won't dwell on it too much. Nevertheless, you should watch out for the dual use of "unproven" and "unable to be proven" in the second premise, where you only talk about what is "not proven," which leaves open the possibility that believing in something that can be proven is logical, thereby ruining the argument. You highlight this distinction in all the other premises except this one, so it's not a big deal, but you should be consistent throughout.

It's easy to agree with the first premise. The second premise is the most "explosive," if you will. There are lots of implications and consequences in that statement. I'm not sure how I feel about it at first glance; it's something that requires much thought and analysis. String theory - the leading candidate for the Theory of Everything in physics right now - has also not been proven empirically, but I wouldn't say that it's illogical to believe in String theory. Why? Because there are plenty of great reasons to legitimize String theory, among them the explanation for the weakness of gravitational effects in our universe. The greater point is that even if something has not been proven outright, there may be other sufficient and redeeming qualities that an idea may have to qualify as logical or reasonable. Just from a cursory overview of the argument, the second premise seems to be the Achilles Heel. But again, include unprovable and this issue goes away.

Third premise....seems all-right. Nothing polemical there, if we ignore the problems of natural languages I mentioned above. Otherwise there are big problems, like what exactly do you mean by 'valid worldview'? You don't define this. Fourth premise....could suffer from the problems I talked about in the second paragraph, but doesn't because you made sure to include both unproven and unprovable. 

"The greatest conquests, the ones that leave no regrets, are those wrested from ignorance." - Napoleon


daedalus
daedalus's picture
Posts: 260
Joined: 2007-05-22
User is offlineOffline
Hmmm. I don't think it

Hmmm. I don't think it works.

 

I believe what you said is true, but it is unprovable that god is unprovable...

Imagine the people who believe such things and who are not ashamed to ignore, totally, all the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible was written. And it is these ignorant people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most unthinking among us, who would make themselves the guides and leaders of us all; who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us; who would invade our schools and libraries and homes. I personally resent it bitterly.
Isaac Asimov


Tanath
Tanath's picture
Posts: 70
Joined: 2008-02-13
User is offlineOffline
Recrudescent wrote:String

Recrudescent wrote:

String theory - the leading candidate for the Theory of Everything in physics right now - has also not been proven empirically, but I wouldn't say that it's illogical to believe in String theory.

 

I think that depends on what you mean by "believe." If you consider it the most likely explanation, then that may not be illogical. If you assume it is true and base your beliefs on that, then that would be illogical. You must be willing to consider the possibility of being wrong. Personally, I'd agree that it's the best candidate, and likely the truest theory we have, but it could very well be flawed, so I don't assume it's true.

----
Faith is not a virtue.


AtheistAviB
AtheistAviB's picture
Posts: 71
Joined: 2007-06-07
User is offlineOffline
Recrudescent wrote:As an

Recrudescent wrote:

As an atheist, I agree with the general spirit of your argument, but I'll offer some critiques just so you can think about sharpening it up. It looks logically valid, but, of course, that doesn't necessarily make it nomologically sound. What complicates the argument is the cryptic meaning of some of the phrases, but since this is a larger problem present in all natural languages, I won't dwell on it too much. Nevertheless, you should watch out for the dual use of "unproven" and "unable to be proven" in the second premise, where you only talk about what is "not proven," which leaves open the possibility that believing in something that can be proven is logical, thereby ruining the argument. You highlight this distinction in all the other premises except this one, so it's not a big deal, but you should be consistent throughout.

It's easy to agree with the first premise. The second premise is the most "explosive," if you will. There are lots of implications and consequences in that statement. I'm not sure how I feel about it at first glance; it's something that requires much thought and analysis. String theory - the leading candidate for the Theory of Everything in physics right now - has also not been proven empirically, but I wouldn't say that it's illogical to believe in String theory. Why? Because there are plenty of great reasons to legitimize String theory, among them the explanation for the weakness of gravitational effects in our universe. The greater point is that even if something has not been proven outright, there may be other sufficient and redeeming qualities that an idea may have to qualify as logical or reasonable. Just from a cursory overview of the argument, the second premise seems to be the Achilles Heel. But again, include unprovable and this issue goes away.

Third premise....seems all-right. Nothing polemical there, if we ignore the problems of natural languages I mentioned above. Otherwise there are big problems, like what exactly do you mean by 'valid worldview'? You don't define this. Fourth premise....could suffer from the problems I talked about in the second paragraph, but doesn't because you made sure to include both unproven and unprovable. 

 

I completely see your point in regards to the issue of something being proven or unproven. Perhaps I should have specified, but I was working under the notion that proven in this case does not necessitate it be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt (as I did not write such stringent parameters for logical belief.

Again I concede your point in relation to "valid worldview"; however, I merely meant a system of beliefs of the world wherein each is supported by evidence and/or proof.


AtheistAviB
AtheistAviB's picture
Posts: 71
Joined: 2007-06-07
User is offlineOffline
AtheistAviB

AtheistAviB wrote:

Recrudescent wrote:

As an atheist, I agree with the general spirit of your argument, but I'll offer some critiques just so you can think about sharpening it up. It looks logically valid, but, of course, that doesn't necessarily make it nomologically sound. What complicates the argument is the cryptic meaning of some of the phrases, but since this is a larger problem present in all natural languages, I won't dwell on it too much. Nevertheless, you should watch out for the dual use of "unproven" and "unable to be proven" in the second premise, where you only talk about what is "not proven," which leaves open the possibility that believing in something that can be proven is logical, thereby ruining the argument. You highlight this distinction in all the other premises except this one, so it's not a big deal, but you should be consistent throughout.

It's easy to agree with the first premise. The second premise is the most "explosive," if you will. There are lots of implications and consequences in that statement. I'm not sure how I feel about it at first glance; it's something that requires much thought and analysis. String theory - the leading candidate for the Theory of Everything in physics right now - has also not been proven empirically, but I wouldn't say that it's illogical to believe in String theory. Why? Because there are plenty of great reasons to legitimize String theory, among them the explanation for the weakness of gravitational effects in our universe. The greater point is that even if something has not been proven outright, there may be other sufficient and redeeming qualities that an idea may have to qualify as logical or reasonable. Just from a cursory overview of the argument, the second premise seems to be the Achilles Heel. But again, include unprovable and this issue goes away.

Third premise....seems all-right. Nothing polemical there, if we ignore the problems of natural languages I mentioned above. Otherwise there are big problems, like what exactly do you mean by 'valid worldview'? You don't define this. Fourth premise....could suffer from the problems I talked about in the second paragraph, but doesn't because you made sure to include both unproven and unprovable. 

 

I completely see your point in regards to the issue of something being proven or unproven. Perhaps I should have specified, but I was working under the notion that proven in this case does not necessitate it be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt (this being the precise reason why I did not write such stringent parameters for logical belief).

Again I concede your point in relation to "valid worldview"; however, I merely meant a system of beliefs of the world wherein each is supported by evidence and/or proof.


Tanath
Tanath's picture
Posts: 70
Joined: 2008-02-13
User is offlineOffline
daedalus wrote:Hmmm. I don't

daedalus wrote:

Hmmm. I don't think it works.

 

I believe what you said is true, but it is unprovable that god is unprovable...

I beg to differ. If we ignore the fact that what you said was a tautology and presume you simply meant that the nonexistence of [insert deity] can't be proven, I would direct you to this:

http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/07-12-05.html

----
Faith is not a virtue.


Recrudescent
Posts: 8
Joined: 2008-02-25
User is offlineOffline
Tanath wrote:I think that

Tanath wrote:
I think that depends on what you mean by "believe." If you consider it the most likely explanation, then that may not be illogical. If you assume it is true and base your beliefs on that, then that would be illogical. You must be willing to consider the possibility of being wrong. Personally, I'd agree that it's the best candidate, and likely the truest theory we have, but it could very well be flawed, so I don't assume it's true.

Yes, once willing to consider the possibility of being wrong, it is not illogical to believe that String theory is right. I myself don't believe in it outright, but I do recognize its value. I see nothing wrong, however, with people who do fully believe in it while holding certain reservations. Again, there are plenty of good reasons to believe in String theory even though it may not be right.

"The greatest conquests, the ones that leave no regrets, are those wrested from ignorance." - Napoleon


Recrudescent
Posts: 8
Joined: 2008-02-25
User is offlineOffline
AtheistAviB wrote:I

AtheistAviB wrote:
I completely see your point in regards to the issue of something being proven or unproven. Perhaps I should have specified, but I was working under the notion that proven in this case does

not

 necessitate it be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt (as I did not write such stringent parameters for logical belief.

Again I concede your point in relation to "valid worldview"; however, I merely meant a system of beliefs of the world wherein each is supported by evidence and/or proof.

If you want to talk about "I meant this" or "I meant that," then you are merely drawing attention to perhaps the biggest intrinsic problem with the argument: it is imprecise, non-axiomatic, and vague, as I clarified in my first post. Another way of putting it: such a grand and ostentatious argument generally needs more ink. If you want to keep its current length, however, it's best if we ignore problems relating to meaning and natural languages, relying only on hand-waving intuitions and interpretations to form a coherent idea about what the argument says.

"The greatest conquests, the ones that leave no regrets, are those wrested from ignorance." - Napoleon


AtheistAviB
AtheistAviB's picture
Posts: 71
Joined: 2007-06-07
User is offlineOffline
Recrudescent

Recrudescent wrote:

AtheistAviB wrote:
I completely see your point in regards to the issue of something being proven or unproven. Perhaps I should have specified, but I was working under the notion that proven in this case does

not

 necessitate it be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt (as I did not write such stringent parameters for logical belief.

Again I concede your point in relation to "valid worldview"; however, I merely meant a system of beliefs of the world wherein each is supported by evidence and/or proof.

If you want to talk about "I meant this" or "I meant that," then you are merely drawing attention to perhaps the biggest intrinsic problem with the argument: it is imprecise, non-axiomatic, and vague, as I clarified in my first post. Another way of putting it: such a grand and ostentatious argument generally needs more ink. If you want to keep its current length, however, it's best if we ignore problems relating to meaning and natural languages, relying only on hand-waving intuitions and interpretations to form a coherent idea about what the argument says.

 

I have no qualms about adding to the argument, I wrote this up in about 5 minutes so there were bound to be blunders amass.

 

Thanks for the pointers though.


daedalus
daedalus's picture
Posts: 260
Joined: 2007-05-22
User is offlineOffline
Tanath wrote:daedalus

Tanath wrote:

daedalus wrote:

Hmmm. I don't think it works.

 

I believe what you said is true, but it is unprovable that god is unprovable...

I beg to differ. If we ignore the fact that what you said was a tautology and presume you simply meant that the nonexistence of [insert deity] can't be proven, I would direct you to this:

http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/07-12-05.html

True. It was meant as a joke, but I was trying to be clever - that's the last time I try that!  Smiling . Maybe if I had left off the reference to God, but referred to his argument being unprovable, it would have been funnier.

Imagine the people who believe such things and who are not ashamed to ignore, totally, all the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible was written. And it is these ignorant people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most unthinking among us, who would make themselves the guides and leaders of us all; who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us; who would invade our schools and libraries and homes. I personally resent it bitterly.
Isaac Asimov


Tanath
Tanath's picture
Posts: 70
Joined: 2008-02-13
User is offlineOffline
daedalus wrote:Tanath

daedalus wrote:

Tanath wrote:

daedalus wrote:

Hmmm. I don't think it works.

 

I believe what you said is true, but it is unprovable that god is unprovable...

I beg to differ. If we ignore the fact that what you said was a tautology and presume you simply meant that the nonexistence of [insert deity] can't be proven, I would direct you to this:

http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/07-12-05.html

True. It was meant as a joke, but I was trying to be clever - that's the last time I try that!  Smiling . Maybe if I had left off the reference to God, but referred to his argument being unprovable, it would have been funnier.

Might be me. I haven't been in a humorous mood lately. Also, a lot is lost in text only communication, so it can be hard to tell sometimes.

----
Faith is not a virtue.


LosingStreak06
Theist
LosingStreak06's picture
Posts: 768
Joined: 2007-05-22
User is offlineOffline
I find there to be little

I find there to be little compelling justification for P4.


daedalus
daedalus's picture
Posts: 260
Joined: 2007-05-22
User is offlineOffline
Then you feel it is rational

Then you feel it is rational to believe in all gods, pixies and unicorns?  If you DO have a cut-off, you are exersizing a reason that is "best". You are inferring to the best explanation, but stopping at a convinient point for yourself. The Smoothie God.

Imagine the people who believe such things and who are not ashamed to ignore, totally, all the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible was written. And it is these ignorant people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most unthinking among us, who would make themselves the guides and leaders of us all; who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us; who would invade our schools and libraries and homes. I personally resent it bitterly.
Isaac Asimov


LosingStreak06
Theist
LosingStreak06's picture
Posts: 768
Joined: 2007-05-22
User is offlineOffline
No, I simply don't feel that

No, I simply don't feel that what is rational is necessarily best. It is not a position that is possible to justify, but that's sort of the whole point.


Tanath
Tanath's picture
Posts: 70
Joined: 2008-02-13
User is offlineOffline
LosingStreak06 wrote:No, I

LosingStreak06 wrote:

No, I simply don't feel that what is rational is necessarily best. It is not a position that is possible to justify, but that's sort of the whole point.

 

Depends on what you mean by "best." I notice you said you don't feel that what is rational is best. The truth may not feel good, but logic is "the best" for determining truth, not feelings. But it seems you would question whether it's best to know the truth. Beliefs inform your actions. Is it not benefical to have as many true beliefs and as few false beliefs as possible? The truth can be hard to accept or deal with, but doing so is better than living in denial.

 

 

----
Faith is not a virtue.


LosingStreak06
Theist
LosingStreak06's picture
Posts: 768
Joined: 2007-05-22
User is offlineOffline
Tanath wrote:Depends on what

Tanath wrote:

Depends on what you mean by "best." I notice you said you don't feel that what is rational is best. The truth may not feel good, but logic is "the best" for determining truth, not feelings. But it seems you would question whether it's best to know the truth. Beliefs inform your actions.

You've misinterpreted me a bit, I think. An appeal to comfort is not exactly what I had in mind. I am fully aware that the truth may feel very bad, and that logic and rational thought are the "best" tools by which we can arrive upon truths.

Tanath wrote:
Is it not benefical to have as many true beliefs and as few false beliefs as possible?

This is the line of thought of which I am skeptical. Beneficial to what point? To what purposes?

Quote:
The truth can be hard to accept or deal with, but doing so is better than living in denial.

This is not a conclusion that I have arrived at.


Tanath
Tanath's picture
Posts: 70
Joined: 2008-02-13
User is offlineOffline
LosingStreak06 wrote:Tanath

LosingStreak06 wrote:

Tanath wrote:

Depends on what you mean by "best." I notice you said you don't feel that what is rational is best. The truth may not feel good, but logic is "the best" for determining truth, not feelings. But it seems you would question whether it's best to know the truth. Beliefs inform your actions.

You've misinterpreted me a bit, I think. An appeal to comfort is not exactly what I had in mind. I am fully aware that the truth may feel very bad, and that logic and rational thought are the "best" tools by which we can arrive upon truths.

Tanath wrote:
Is it not benefical to have as many true beliefs and as few false beliefs as possible?

This is the line of thought of which I am skeptical. Beneficial to what point? To what purposes?

Quote:
The truth can be hard to accept or deal with, but doing so is better than living in denial.

This is not a conclusion that I have arrived at.

Being able to accept and deal with things is a sign of maturity. Inability, a sign of immaturity. I'm not accusing you of being immature (at least not yet), but think on that.

How is it beneficial to have few false beliefs, and many true beliefs? Well, many true beliefs constitutes knowledge & information. The more the better. Not having many true beliefs constitutes ignorance, as does having many false beliefs. Surely you don't think ignorance is a good thing?

As I mentioned, your beliefs inform your actions. If your beliefs are flawed, your actions will ultimately be less than desirable in some way. They may be counter-productive/self-defeating, or be detrimental to others, or may allow you to be taken advantage of, etc. Whatever your goals, being better informed makes you more capable of achieving them.

If you think your beliefs don't matter, I would suggest that you haven't thought about it very much.

 

Perhaps you believe in belief, in which case I'd recommend you read Daniel Dennett's "Breaking the Spell: Religion As a Natural Phenomenon."

----
Faith is not a virtue.


LosingStreak06
Theist
LosingStreak06's picture
Posts: 768
Joined: 2007-05-22
User is offlineOffline
Tanath wrote:Being able to

Tanath wrote:

Being able to accept and deal with things is a sign of maturity. Inability, a sign of immaturity. I'm not accusing you of being immature (at least not yet), but think on that.

Again, it isn't a matter of "accepting" or "dealing" with things. It is a matter of whether this is important in the first place. It is very possible that I am "immature" by your standards. The question that I'm asking is, should I really care?

Quote:
How is it beneficial to have few false beliefs, and many true beliefs? Well, many true beliefs constitutes knowledge & information. The more the better. Not having many true beliefs constitutes ignorance, as does having many false beliefs. Surely you don't think ignorance is a good thing?

I don't find any inherent value in "truth" or "knowledge," so it is difficult for me to relate to how having more of those things would be inherently better. I do not believe that ignorance is necessarily a good thing, but that if knowledge is irrelevant, then ignorance is equally irrelevant. If believing in the truth is not inherently beneficial, then carrying false beliefs is an acceptable practice.

Quote:
As I mentioned, your beliefs inform your actions. If your beliefs are flawed, your actions will ultimately be less than desirable in some way. They may be counter-productive/self-defeating, or be detrimental to others, or may allow you to be taken advantage of, etc. Whatever your goals, being better informed makes you more capable of achieving them.

And if I have no goals?

Quote:
If you think your beliefs don't matter, I would suggest that you haven't thought about it very much.

Beliefs that don't matter are hardly worth putting much thought into, no? A bit of a Catch-22.


BobSpence
High Level DonorRational VIP!ScientistWebsite Admin
BobSpence's picture
Posts: 5939
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
I don't think you can make a

I don't think you can make a purely deductive argument for non-belief in a God, except for inconsistent or inherently self-contradictory versions.

You need at some point to refer to evidence (or lack of evidence) for the propositions which you are applying the deductive arguments to.

It is valid to deduce that belief in the actual existence of something for which there is little or no empirical evidence cannot justified on other than emotional or psychological grounds.

It is important to distinguish, IMHO, between a position that is not logically justified in terms of other facts, and one which is actually explicitly in conflict with the facts. I would restrict the labels 'illogical' and 'irrational' to beliefs which have strong evidence against them. If there is no evidence either way, I would prefer 'not logical' or 'not rational'. Many, probably most, of the things which give life its meaning and happiness are not 'rational' - we indulge in many activities because it makes us 'feels good', ie encourages various positive feelings. It is entirely rational to do things which make us feel 'happier', as long as they are not likely to cause us trouble later.

This is why I think it may be rational to hold a belief that is not empirically supported, as long as it is not explicitly in conflict with 'reality', if it fits in with other ideas and helps provide a framework for other thoughts, or is found 'useful', even comforting, whatever. I would be uncomfortable with someone who insists that their position is more than this, that this mental convenience and comfort corresponds to some solid external reality.

The risk with holding too strongly to beliefs that may not correspond to reality is that you may find yourself making poor decisions when faced with new circumstances. It surely is more likely that you will make poor decisions if they are based on factually incorrect ideas.

 

 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


Tanath
Tanath's picture
Posts: 70
Joined: 2008-02-13
User is offlineOffline
LosingStreak06 wrote:Tanath

LosingStreak06 wrote:

Tanath wrote:

Being able to accept and deal with things is a sign of maturity. Inability, a sign of immaturity. I'm not accusing you of being immature (at least not yet), but think on that.

Again, it isn't a matter of "accepting" or "dealing" with things. It is a matter of whether this is important in the first place. It is very possible that I am "immature" by your standards. The question that I'm asking is, should I really care?

It is a matter of accepting and dealing with things. We're talking about denial. Should you care? If you don't think your beliefs matter, then no. But is it rational to think your beliefs don't matter? I think not. Your beliefs inform your actions.

LosingStreak06 wrote:
Quote:
How is it beneficial to have few false beliefs, and many true beliefs? Well, many true beliefs constitutes knowledge & information. The more the better. Not having many true beliefs constitutes ignorance, as does having many false beliefs. Surely you don't think ignorance is a good thing?

I don't find any inherent value in "truth" or "knowledge," so it is difficult for me to relate to how having more of those things would be inherently better. I do not believe that ignorance is necessarily a good thing, but that if knowledge is irrelevant, then ignorance is equally irrelevant. If believing in the truth is not inherently beneficial, then carrying false beliefs is an acceptable practice.

I didn't say there was inherent value in truth and knowledge. The value lies in it's utility. Knowledge and ignorance are not irrelevant. Much evil is the result of ignorance.

 

LosingStreak06 wrote:

Quote:
As I mentioned, your beliefs inform your actions. If your beliefs are flawed, your actions will ultimately be less than desirable in some way. They may be counter-productive/self-defeating, or be detrimental to others, or may allow you to be taken advantage of, etc. Whatever your goals, being better informed makes you more capable of achieving them.

And if I have no goals?

Don't be absurd. Even something as simple as picking up an object is a goal. If you're misinformed as to where it is, you wouldn't be very good at picking it up now would you?

LosingStreak06 wrote:

Quote:
If you think your beliefs don't matter, I would suggest that you haven't thought about it very much.

Beliefs that don't matter are hardly worth putting much thought into, no? A bit of a Catch-22.

Funny. I suggest you question which (if any) beliefs don't matter. Wouldn't you think it matters to be right about which beliefs are and aren't important?

----
Faith is not a virtue.