Conversation with Jehovah's Witness [Part II]

Rook_Hawkins's picture

 

(Name withheld),

I hope you and your family are doing well.  I'm going to respond to your points paragraph at a time. I will be as direct and to the point as I can, so please do not mistake my blunt responses for rudeness.  I am just short on time since I am spending so much of it on my book.

Below I will separate your paragraphs from mine.  (This may seem long but I take this subject very seriously. This is, after all, what I do for a living; as a historian it is my job to correct false presuppositions and educate people on current trends in Biblical scholarship and archaeology)

 

<<<Rook,

Your concerns and questions are very valid and I was happy that you’ve given me an opportunity to discuss them with you. In comparison with most people I have this type of conversation with, your very far ahead! You’ve accurately pin pointed the most important of all questions with your line of reasoning. And with all that you wrote, I’d like to answer the glaring question of why and your point about multiple gods. I respect the secular references you included in your email and particularly the statistics the present. I’ll do my best to explain answers using just the bible.>>>


 I would ask that in future e-mails, that you consider reading alternate material outside the Bible to justify positions.  I ask this because it is very easy for people to become so focused on one piece of literature that they become oblivious to a great wealth of incredible knowledge written down by people who are well respected in their fields and by the lay(wo)man.  Also, you have to remember, which perhaps may be difficult for somebody surrounded by a community with faith, that I see the Bible as a Jewish collection of fiction books, epics, pros, sayings and novels, much as if we were to collect a series of very important Greek works and compile them into one, such as the Iliad and Odyssey, the Argonautika, Eurpides' The Bacchae, Aeschylus' Oresteia trilogy, Hesiod's Homeric Hymns, and Plato's Republic. (Of course there are literally hundreds of manuscripts that could be added as well, but time, once again, limits my response)  So using just the Bible does not really explain anything to me on a level which I would be required to believe.  Perhaps it is easy to ignore the fact that every religion that has ever existed claims to have a particular holy book that adheres to their faith, their interpretation of that faith, and how they should proceed with their lives, and how their faith came to be including their God(s).  Realizing this, I cannot hold your holy book over them all because I respect you and love you as a person.  I have lots of friends whom I hold dear to me who believe in all sorts of things - but I would not just take their word for it that their holy book is accurate because they say so. Eye-wink

<<<You are correct in your observation that the bible doesn’t say there are no other gods. However, the bible does refer to one true God. 1 Corinthians 8:5,6 says, "For even though there are those who are called "gods," whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many "gods" and many "lords," 6 there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.">>>


While I truly respect that you have a lot of faith vested in this tradition, this is not validated by archaeology.  Allow me to recommend some very important books for you:

  • Mark S. Smith, The Early History of God
  • Mark S. Smith, The Memoirs of God: History, Memory, and the Experience of the Divine in Ancient Israel
  • Simon B. Parker, Ugaritic Narrative Poetry (SBL Writings from the Ancient World Series)  
  • James B. Prichard (editor), Ancient Near Eastern Texts Relating to the Old Testament (ANET)
  • Israel Finkelstein, Archaeology of the Israelite Settlement
  • Israel Finkelstein, The Bible Unearthed
  • William G. Dever, Did God Have a Wife? Archaeology and Folk Religion in Ancient Israel


This is a small selection which will be adequate to get you started reading.  You'll find that the information is more than enough to disprove the position that the early Israelites were monotheistic.  I'll give you a few pointers from a lot of this research further down as I expose some flaws in your research.

<<<Anything that is worship can pretty much be called a god Rook.>>>


This is correct.  Amazing how the God that slaughters innocent women and children in the Old Testament is really looked at as a higher being.  If a human were to do that same thing, they'd be given the death penalty and scourned for ages, much as Hitler was.  But Yahweh (or as you would call him, Jehovah) has a much higher death count.  If we were to count up the total of people God killed directly, or ordered to be killed directly in the Bible from the start of Genesis to Revelations, the number is a startling 2,270,365!  
 
If we made a chart, it would look like this (Steve Wells Skeptics Annotated Bible Check him out: www.skepticsannotatedbible.com):

 

Number Killed

Cumulative Total

Lot's wife for looking back

Gen.19:26, BT

1

1

Er who was "wicked in the sight of the Lord"

Gen.38:7, BT

1

2

Onan for spilling his seed

Gen.38:10, BT

1

3

For dancing naked around Aaron's golden calf

Ex.32:27-28, 35, BT

3000

3003

Aaron's sons for offering strange fire before the Lord

Lev.10:1-3, Num.3:4, 26:61, BT

2

3005

A blasphemer

Lev.24:10-23, BT

1

3006

A man who picked up sticks on the Sabbath

Num.15:32-36, BT

1

3007

Korah, Dathan, and Abiram (and their families)

Num.16:27, BT

12+

3019+

Burned to death for offering incense

Num.16:35, 26:10, BT

250

3269+

For complaining

Num.16:49, BT

14,700

17,969+

For "committing whoredom with the daughters of Moab"

Num.25:9, BT

24,000

41,969+

Midianite massacre (32,000 virgins were kept alive as part of God's war plunder)

Num.31:1-35, BT

90,000+

131,969+

God tells Joshua to stoned to death Achan (and his family) for taking the accursed thing.

Joshua 7:10-12, 24-26, BT

5+

131,974+

God tells Joshua to attack Ai and do what he did to Jericho (kill everyone).

Joshua 8:1-25, BT

12,000

143,974+

God delivered Canaanites and Perizzites

Judges 1:4, BT

10,000

153,974+

Ehud delivers a message from God: a knife into the king's belly

Jg.3:15-22, BT

1

153,975+

God delivered Moabites

Jg.3:28-29, BT

10,000

163,975+

God forces Midianite soldiers to kill each other.

Jg.7:2-22, 8:10, BT

120,000

283,975+

The Spirit of the Lord comes on Samson

Jg.14:19, BT

30

284,005+

The Spirit of the Lord comes mightily on Samson

Jg.15:14-15, BT

1000

285,005+

Samson's God-assisted act of terrorism

Jg.16:27-30, BT

3000

288,005+

"The Lord smote Benjamin"

Jg.20:35-37, BT

25,100

313,105+

More Benjamites

Jg.20:44-46

25,000

338,105+

For looking into the ark of the Lord

1 Sam.6:19

50,070

388,175+

God delivered Philistines

1 Sam.14:12

20

388,195+

Samuel (at God's command) hacks Agag to death

1 Sam.15:32-33

1

388,196+

"The Lord smote Nabal."

1 Sam.25:38

1

388,197+

Uzzah for trying to keep the ark from falling

2 Sam.6:6-7, 1 Chr.13:9-10

1

388,198+

David and Bathsheba's baby boy

2 Sam.12:14-18

1

388,199+

Seven sons of Saul hung up before the Lord

2 Sam.21:6-9

7

388,206+

From plague as punishment for David's census (men only; probably 200,000 if including women and children)

2 Sam.24:13, 1 Chr.21:7

70,000+

458,206+

A prophet for believing another prophet's lie

1 Kg.13:1-24

1

458,207+

God delivers the Syrians into the Israelites' hands

1 Kg.20:28-29

100,000

558,207+

God makes a wall fall on Syrian soldiers

1 Kg.20:30

27,000

585,207+

God sent a lion to eat a man for not killing a prophet

1 Kg.20:35-36

1

585,208+

Ahaziah is killed for talking to the wrong god.

2 Kg.1:2-4, 17, 2 Chr.22:7-9

1

585,209+

Burned to death by God

2 Kg.1:9-12

102

585,311+

God sends two bears to kill children for making fun of Elisha's bald head

2 Kg.2:23-24

42

585,343+

Trampled to death for disbelieving Elijah

2 Kg.7:17-20

1

585,344+

Jezebel

2 Kg.9:33-37

1

585,355+

God sent lions to kill "some" foreigners

2 Kg.17:25-26

3+

585,358+

Sleeping Assyrian soldiers

2 Kg.19:35, 2 Chr.32:21, Is.37:36

185,000

770,358+

Saul

1 Chr.10:14

1

770,359+

God delivers Israel into the hands of Judah

2 Chr.13:15-17

500,000

1,270,359+

Jeroboam

2 Chr.13:20

1

1,270,360+

"The Lord smote the Ethiopians."

2 Chr.14:9-14

1,000,000

2,270,360+

God kills Jehoram by making his bowels fall out

2 Chr.21:14-19

1

2,270,361+

Ezekiel's wife

Ezek.24:15-18

1

2,270,362+

Ananias and Sapphira

Acts 5:1-10

2

2,270,364+

Herod

Acts 12:23, BT

1

2,270,365+



Scary, no?  That is your God.  This is the God that you feel best describes you and best fits you.  Out of the billions of things that we humans have called God, this is the one you have decided is real, and will spend your whole life worshiping.  Is that right?  And people think I'm not normal for not believing in this beast?  But believing in this megalomaniacal being, that is your choice, of course. 

<<<In as much as the worshiper attributes to it might greater than his own and venerates it. A person could let his own belly be his god.>>>


But at least he would be able to see his belly.
 

<<<Romans 16:18 says, "For men of that sort are slaves, not of our Lord Christ, but of their own bellies; and by smooth talk and complimentary speech they seduce the hearts of guileless ones." But there is a difference in speaking of the supreme God. Psalms 86:8 makes this clear as is says, "There is none like you among the gods, Oh Jehovah neither are there any works like yours." So while the Bible doesn’t say there is only one god, it certainly makes a distinction between God (the supreme God) and gods.>>>

 

Only in the english translation of the text.  The translators of many of the versions of the Bible, specifically the KJV (they use less manuscripts), the NIV (severely altered to reflect more modern english), the NLT (modern translation which is not much different than the NIV), and the Message (horrible, horrible translation) have colored over the negative and often contradictory nature of the Bible.  This is why reading any english translation of any ancient source is bad.  Scholars will tell you that the only way to read a text and understand it is in its original language.  So much context gets lost between Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek when translated into english, and worse yet the english words themselves bring about connotations that do not exist in the ancient languages. 

In this particular instance, several very important things must be established.  (1) When were the books of the Hebrew Bible written down (because we would have to determine at what point the influence of culture affected the writers), (2) by whom were they written, (3) what was written, (4) when did it become "official", (5) why were they considered official, etc...Are you starting to see the problem of assuming and taking for granted the authority of the Bible yet?

(1) Scholarship now is almost completely unanimous in our understanding that the books of the Bible date to the Persian Period, with perhaps some traditions predating that period.  Several books of the Hebrew Bible (what you know of as the Old Testament) are considered to be Hellenistic in nature.  You can review this link which will take you to my article on Biblical Languages and Dating.  Also check out the following resources:

  • John Van Seters, Abraham in History and Tradition (1975),
  • Thomas L. Thompson, The History of the Patriarchal Narratives (1973),
  • Niels Peter Lemche, Early Israel (1985),
  • Thomas L. Thompson, The Mythic Past: Biblical Archaeology and the Myth of Israel (1999),
  • Niels Peter Lemche, The Israelites in History and Tradition (1998)


(2) Every book in the Hebrew Bible is completely pseudonymous.  Nobody knows who wrote them.  The names of the books (such as the prophets) do not reflect the syntax and Semitic style of language in which we would expect from the prophets themselves writing at the time the books purport them to have been written.  I suggest you read up on new revisions in theological and textual perspectives since the days of Wellhausen’s very important “Documentary Hypothesis” and the great advancements since the 1970’s by the illustrious Copenhagen School. 

 

(3) I would once more have you read (or relate back to) my article on Biblical Languages and Dating for more information.

 

(4) Interestingly enough, there is not one record of codification and canonization of the Hebrew Bible until one hundred years prior to the Council of Nicea in the very beginning of the third century around 200 CE.  Before this point, the Old Testament did not exist, and as the Dead Sea Scrolls show us, many apocryphal books were written during the period between the Hellenistic Age and the time of canonization, and even after (including the authorship and canonization of the Mishnah, the Midrash, the Talmud, the Toldoth Jesu, and various other Jewish prophetic works).  Jewish scribes and authors freely adapted the narratives of earlier ancient Near Eastern cultures (Genesis is an example of literary borrowing between several sources, but more on this below) and their own traditions to invent and create new texts.  This is well attested by scholars, not just today, but in antiquity, including two prominent Jewish scholars, Josephus and Philo, who also created and adapted narrative freely. 

 

(5) Why certain books, a very small few over the vast hundreds that were written, were chosen for the canon is a question that rests solely when we consider the plight of the Jews themselves during the period of canonization.  The Christians, now growing exponentially in the third century, were starting to canonize their scriptures, some no older than the ones the Jews were using in their synagogues.  Because of the very strong controversy between the Catholics (“universal church&rdquoEye-wink and Orthodox Christians and the Jews who were not being blamed for the death of the Christian savior, Jesus Christ, the Jews felt an obligation to set a canon for themselves.  Later, the Christians adopted the Greek form of this which tradition called the Septuagint (although the letter to Aristaeas in the Hellenistic period is known to be spurious now, and no scholars believe the tale behind the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible previously), because many Christians had converted from populations that spoke Greek, specifically in the Eastern church, and more importantly, Greek was considered to be an Elitest language.  Latin came later, around the time of Jerome, and was adopted later by the Church.  All of our earliest codices are in Greek, such as the Vaticanus, the Siniaticus, the Alexandrinus, etc… But I digress; the choice of certain books came from how best to preserve Jewish traditions, and many were chosen that were anti-Hellenistic in nature.  The Christians went quite the opposite.

This is why scholars are not so easily ready to jump on the conclusions of the faithful.  When you understand the history, it becomes much less likely that what you are holding dear to your being is the true reality behind the formation of the Bible. 

 As mentioned sparsely above, a group of tablets were uncovered at Ugarit almost ninety years ago.  They revealed to the world of scholarship that the Hebrew Bible was not the only compilation of texts that mention specific Canaanite Gods and Goddesses.  However, it also showed several names that were near and dear to the Hebrew Bible which sparked a new outlook on the origins of Israelite religious practices.  In the texts found at Ugarit, there are four “tiers” or “levels” of what Mark S. Smith calls the “household”.[1]  He gives the following description of the household of the Gods:

 

Level 1: The Elder God El and his consort, or wife, Athirat

Level 2: The Children: Athtart and Athtar, Shapsu and Yarih, Shahar and Shalim, Resheph; and the warrior-God Baal.

Level 3: Kothar

Level 4: Divine workers, messengers, servants, and keepers (also known as angels)

 

The four tiers or levels correspond with the importance in the household.  Just as a family has a father and mother at the head, El and Athirat reign supreme over the second tier, the Divine Children.   The Children of El and Athirat represent celestial events.  Athtart and Athtar represent the evening and morning stars respectively, Shapsu and Yarih are the sun and the moon, Shahar and Shalim are considered dawn and dusk.  Resheph is most probably Mars.  Baal, on the other hand, is only partly related to the others, perhaps by marriage.  The third and fourth levels are the lesser Gods who work within the household, such as Kothar who is considered to be a Divine craftsman.[2]   

 

These traditions are shared by many of the Canaanite peoples, although the names of their Gods in their own distinctive pantheon were different.  The Akkadians for example had a household that resembled the following:

 

Level 1: The begetter Apsu and his consort Mummu-Tiamat, so-called, “she who bore them all”

Level 2: The begotten sons and grandsons: Lahmu and Lahamu, Anshar and Kishar, and Anu

Level 3: Nudimmud or Ea—also known as earth and his wife Damkina (?)

Level 4: Anunnaki (similar to the messengers and angels)


The correspondence does not end or begin simply with texts found at Ugarit.  There are a vast amount of other archaeological evidences found specifically in the hill region of Canaan (if you’re not familiar with this region, any standard biblical atlas will do), hundreds of theophoric inscriptions have been found. One scholar noted that when the inscriptions were looked at critically, during the beginning of the so-called monarchal period, only 25% of the inscriptions are Yahwistic.  “In general, their research seems to indicate…that the popularity of Yahweh may have increased over the years, since the percentage of Yawistic names increased by the end of the monarchy.”[3]  Additionally, he points out that attempting to use theophoric inscriptions does not a priori mean that the whole of society worshipped the deity represented, as many theophoric names represent “personal or familial piety.”  In other words, the inscriptions do not prove the authority of Yahwistic dominance in religious practices.[4]  To the contrary, the inscriptions in Tigay’s study also include names containing Baal, El and Horus.[5]  A quick review of the sources I listed above in this part of my response will more than adequately dispel the myth of a monotheistic early Israelite state. 



<<<Rook, the bible does not mention humans before Adam and Eve. There are no actual records of ancient man, his writing, agriculture, and other pursuits, extending into the past before 4026 B.C.E., the date of Adam’s creation.>>>

 

Only if we look, as you seem to be doing, at the Bible.  However, we are not going to look just at the Bible, as I have suggested, as it is downright willful ignorance to do so.  I would suggest, if you get the chance, to take a trip to the Museum of Natural History and the Academy of Natural Sciences.  Both of these trips will fill any doubts you might have to the abundance of evidence for evolution and the existence of human civilizations. 

 

 

<<< Since the Scriptures outline man’s history from the very creation of the first human pair, there can be no such thing as "prehistoric man.">>>

 

Now you’re just being silly.  According to this same logic, the Greeks could be just as equally correct that the first men were created from ants by the Gods who formed them into the great warriors known to Homer as the Myrmidons, Achilles great tribe.  How is that any different than claiming that man came from dirt?  Come now, are we going to take what we learn seriously or are you just going to revert back to mythology when ever the going gets tough?  Please consider this very carefully.

 

<<< Fossil records in the earth provide no link between man and the animals.>>>

 

Also a very silly perspective.  I suggest you read any modern book on evolutionary biology. 

 

<<<There is a total absence of reference to any subhumans in man’s earliest records, whether these be written documents, cave drawings, sculptures, or the like.>>>

 

Of course there is.  Man did not organize a written language until the advent of cuneiform script by the Sumerians in the second millennium BCE.  Before this period, written languages did not exist, especially in any form of school system.  This is precisely due to evolution.  Prior to this point, man only had oral or vocal languages, cave paintings (many which predate ancient civilizations by thousands of years), and music.  Man’s brain had only evolved to a level to incorporate writing around this period.  Please take some time to review the book by famous Neropsychologist Julian Jaynes, who wrote the book The Origins of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind.  The book is very well researched, cited, and expanded for the layman.  The research has to do with the size of the brain, the origin of consciousness in humans for the past 3,000 years, which lead to the development of societies and civilizations, writing, art and better music.  This is not a point against evolution, rather it is a point for it.   

 

<<< Consider this too, that at 2 Peter 3:8 Peter said, "However, let this one fact not be escaping your notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day." So really, when we consider what God’s word the bible tells us – the year 2026 would be 6000 years of man – not even a full week to Jehovah God! Verse 9 of 2 Peter 3 says, "Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance." >>>

 

You know what I see throughout this whole reply?  A great big dodge.  You did not even begin to address the problem of suffering, and I’m already quite a few paragraphs down.  Instead you have focused on alternate and silly conclusions, many which I granted for the sake of argument.  I would really like it if you would go back and address the concerns I gave in the first e-mail.

<<<This leads me into your comment about the world not reflection the perfection of God. The Bible addresses this concern too and it really ties into Jehovah Gods right to rule or sovereignty as we’ve discussed. Here’s an illustration to help answer your question. I have a child who goes to the most renowned school in the world to study law. The law professor teaching my child is the best attorney in the world and accepted as such. But my child decides not to study the way he’s instructed, he does not feel he needs to learn some of the key points the instructor is stressing and ends up being a horrible attorney. Certainly no one would blame the world renowned professor for my child’s failings would they?>>>

You are anthropomorphizing God.  They would blame this lawyer if he was all knowing, all powerful, and all moral, for accepting your son’s application to his school knowing he would fail ahead of time.  What is worse is that if we ignore your attempt at creating a false analogy, this lawyer would also be putting your son to death for not completing the courses with straight A’s.  Please attempt to remember the bad along with what you consider the good when making an analogy.  It is easy, perhaps, to ignore the horrible nature of God when you are trying to convert somebody, but I’m not that gullible or susceptible to that tactic. 

 <<<This introduced sin and death to mankind. As a result all of us sin and die.>>>

 

So God is not all powerful?  If God was all powerful, certainly he would have been able to create a system in which man can escape sin and still have free will.  If he cannot, he is not all powerful, and the Bible is wrong.  You have contradicted yourself.

<<<But although he didn’t cause it he will change it in accord with his original purpose.>>>

His original purpose was for man to sin and die.  Otherwise he is not all knowing and he is not all powerful.  In any event, he is certainly not all moral; not by the standards you have listed here.

<<<To understand why  he must prove his sovereignty we really need to understand the situation as it unfolded and the meaning of his reaction in relation to his original purpose for mankind. When Satan told Eve in Genesis 3 that she would be like God if she ate of the fruit God told her not to eat, Satan just didn’t challenge God in front of Adam and Eve. The Bible tells us that God created the Angels before man, and while it doesn’t give a specific number – there could be hundreds of thousands who watched the scenario unfold. Ask yourself if you were in this situation how would you respond? To get rid of this challenge, to get rid of this question would have required he destroy everyone he created – even Jesus!>>>

Yet God has no problems doing just that with the flood.  How many do you suppose died during the flood?  Hundreds of thousands perhaps?  Do you really want to match wits with me on the subject of morality and your God?  I promise you, I will destroy your perspective of a loving, moral Jehovah, by using your own Bible against you.  This is why I stressed to you over and over that day we talked that your God contradicts any notion of perfection. 

And wouldn’t God have known in advance that Satan would tempt Adam and Eve?  He knew before he created all those angels and heaven and earth that Satan would tempt man.  And he knew that man would fall.  So really your argument is moot.  And again, if he didn’t, he is not God.  If you would suppose, as you have in the past, that God willing chose to ignore the future, then your God is incompetent and a should be held accountable for not creating a better system, when he had the information in front of him.  Instead, your God acted as George Bush Jr. did.  He knew of a possible threat ahead of time, but he chose to go on vacation and ignore the problem instead of doing what a responsible, sensible, moral being would do.   

<<<Think of it. If he had zapped (for lack of a better term) Adam and Eve on the spot what you have believed about his right to rule if you were watching? Perhaps doubt would have crept into your mind!>>>

Certainly God could have thought of a way to fix the problem, knowing it would happen ahead of time, before he created anything.  Right now, you have made God into the nutty professor instead of the responsible, decent, moral, perfect being you claim him to be.  Good job on making your God out to be incompetent.  What is interesting is, I bet you didn’t even realize how bad you were making him look before I pointed it out to you. 

Allow me to make the appropriate analogy.  You are an owner of a business.  You receive a warning from the FBI that one of your employees, Stan, is going to attempt to kill two of your other coworkers, both subordinates, Adam and Eve.  The FBI entrusts you to handle the situation and cooperate.  Keep Stan away from Adam and Eve, and when he tries something, stop it.  (for the sake of keeping this analogy appropriate, you are all powerful and cannot be killed, so Stan is not a threat)  Instead, however, you ignore the warning, and take a long lunch.  When you come back, you see Stan has already killed Adam and Eve, and has corrupted a great deal of your other employees.  When you fire Stan, he takes half of your employees with you.  Do your actions reflect a moral, rational, all perfect being?  Or do they reflect the actions of a lazy, incompetent, fool?  If anything, the Genesis account makes Jehovah look like a complete tool.  He is constantly fixing his own mistakes….some perfect being. 

<<< And so Jehovah acknowledged the challenge and has let man rule themselves independent of him to see if it is really so that they’re better off without him.>>>

That’s a fine bit of speculation.  But it seems that God has his hands in everything in the Hebrew Bible.   

<<<Rook, did you ever have a classmate who knew a better way to do a math problem then the teacher. He might have even got some of his classmates to think he was smarter then the teacher, convincing other students that the teacher didn’t know what he was doing. What happened if the teacher sends him right to the principal’s office? The other students will still doubt the teacher. A skilled teacher will let the student come to the front of the class and present his way of solving the math problem. When he fails to solve the problem, all the students  in the class would know that the teacher is right, qualified to teach them math.>>>

What if the student did have a better way to do the problem?  What if the teacher was incompetent and could not think of a better solution?  Would not a wiser teacher want to learn and educate themselves if indeed the child did present a better equation?  Instead, you have presented a teacher who is arrogant, self-conscious, and egotistical. 

I hope this conversation has been a learning experience for you.

 

Looking forward to our next conversation,

 

Rook



[1] Mark S. Smith, The Memoirs of God (2004), p. 101-102

[2] ibid.

[3] Robert Karl Gnuse, No Other Gods: Emergent Monotheism in Israel (1997), p. 107.  Gnuse is referring to the studies of Tigay and another scholar, J. Fowler, who published his study of theophoric names in his book Theophoric Personal Names in Ancient Hebrew: A Comparative Study (1988). 

[4] Gnuse makes it clear that the more probable explanation for the variety of names is that they represent a growing trend of monotheistic practices among the early Israelites.  Although probably true, Gnuse would probably place the transition in the so-called Monarchal period, where I would be hesitant to place such an important transition in such a specious and hotly debated period of time.  Perhaps another later study, done by somebody more knowledgeable and with more experience than I, will grant us a possible answer. (op. cit.)

[5] Gnuse also points out that in areas around Israel, many societies did not use favorite deities as parts of their names.  He used the example of Asherah in Ugarit, where she was very popular; yet the corresponding theophoric names are not nearly as much as those that resemble the ones found in the hill country with Yah or Yaho.  This, concludes Gnuse, further shows the irrelevancy of Fowler’s and Tigay’s studies, suggesting that it is most probable that a lot of people within the Israelite just liked to use certain names more.  (p. 107-108)

 

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HeyZeusCreaseToe's picture

Long enough?

Wow man that was an epic response. I see you were able to use your God of Death list. The tone of the response gets increasingly condescending as your refutations carry on. I hope you haven't alienated this lady from responding to you. It seems that it is hard to break out of the attack mode that many theists have warranted on this site. Most of your responses were pretty spot on. If she takes your advice on rewriting her response to address your arguments without referring to the bible, then I suspect you will be waiting for said response for a very long time. She sounds like a nice, albeit severely mislead, person. As for the book list, that is a ton of books for one person to read to respond to an email. I know you are really just providing the references to back up your facts, but if she picked up one "heretical piece of historicity" outside of the bible to find out some facts on Judeo-Christian history I would say that you made a very positive impression.

Sidenote: You talk about the children of Gods, was Yahweh supposedly a child of another God? Or is Yahweh in your Canaanite writings synonymous with El.

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” Yoda

Rook_Hawkins's picture

Actually yes.  The

Actually yes.  The formation of Yahwistic monotheism is a very late happenstance in antiquity.  Early Israelites had a pantheon of Gods that is reflected even in the Hebrew Bible itself.  Remarkably, this Pantheon is also reflected in various other writings as well.  Yahweh was the son of Elyon and Athirat (Biblical Asherah), at least at first.  Eventually, Elyon became El, and then El-Yahweh, and soon El vanished.  Asherah also vanished as well.  More importantly, Baal was known to have the same sort of transformation as Yahweh in the region of Samaria, in the hill country.  Mark Smith really gets into some very good details about it all.

Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server, which houses Celebrity Atheists. Books by Rook Hawkins (Thomas Verenna)

HeyZeusCreaseToe's picture

mmkay

Well I guess I got a few things wrong in my battlestar galactica religion blog response, oh well. Thanks fo d info.

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” Yoda

ronin-dog's picture

That was great. Really

That was great. Really interesting too.

Very hard to discus a topic with someone when they won't get their head out of the bible. I think the main thing is that even if you can start them thinking they might eventually wake up.

Zen-atheist wielding Occam's katana.

Jesus said, "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division." - Luke 12:51

HisWillness's picture

Rook_Hawkins wrote:What if

Rook_Hawkins wrote:

What if the student did have a better way to do the problem?  What if the teacher was incompetent and could not think of a better solution?  Would not a wiser teacher want to learn and educate themselves if indeed the child did present a better equation?

This caught my attention only because I've had the experience of very good teaching in math, and often had "alternative" answers, being the jackass that I am. She may not realize that she's framing the problem of challenging authority, not of legitimacy. The answer that always shut me down wasn't "I'm right and you're wrong, since I'm the teacher" but "Sure, Will, but you're doing the same thing, and my way involves fewer steps." And of course the teacher was right, but demonstrably so, which is what has always been the thing that repelled me from authoritative thinking to the kind of empirical thinking you're asking her to look at.

You're asking her to make a big jump. It's good that you gave her so much material - it ads to the suspense of what her response might be.

Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence

Rook_Hawkins's picture

This is true, yes.  One of

This is true, yes.  One of the things I asked her when I sent her the previous e-mail (see Recent Discussion with Jehovah's Witness) is that, if I, as a mortal,  can think of ways to get around killing people but still solve the problem, why can't this almighty, perfect being?  It never surprises me that, in their oblivious attempts to prove their God, theists will absolutely make their God out to be the biggest retard in the Universe.

Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server, which houses Celebrity Atheists. Books by Rook Hawkins (Thomas Verenna)

greek goddess's picture

Wowww great information!

Wowww great information! Even if you were pressed for time, your email was very thorough.

I do have to agree that the tone becomes more condescending about halfway through, but I think I would do the same thing after awhile. It was a little naive of her to try to use only the Bible in her "refutations," and you were right to call her out on avoiding the questions.

I recently found that JWs aren't supposed to read anything that contradicts their Watchtower propaganda, and they aren't supposed to read the Bible without Watchtower material to interpret it. So I don't know how successful you will be in getting her to pick up a book on the historicity of the Bible or on evolution, but at least you've given her resources - the rest is out of your hands.

Looking forward to the next installment - if there is one, assuming you didn't scare her off.

 

HisWillness's picture

Rook_Hawkins wrote:It never

Rook_Hawkins wrote:

It never surprises me that, in their oblivious attempts to prove their God, theists will absolutely make their God out to be the biggest retard in the Universe.

*tear* so true. I'm going to use my psychic powers to predict her awesome forthcoming argument: God decides when everyone lives and dies, so genocide is just a particularly busy Tuesday. Then the "tough love" argument, which is my favourite ("if God was nice all the time, nobody would take him seriously" ). Daddy issues anyone?

Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence

Rook_Hawkins's picture

greek goddess wrote:Wowww

greek goddess wrote:

Wowww great information! Even if you were pressed for time, your email was very thorough.

Thanks!  I try to be as thorough as possible.  Although I feel I still could have added more information.

Quote:
I do have to agree that the tone becomes more condescending about halfway through, but I think I would do the same thing after awhile. It was a little naive of her to try to use only the Bible in her "refutations," and you were right to call her out on avoiding the questions.

I knew it would happen.  That is why I gave the forewarning at the beginning.  I get stressed because of the ignorance, and I start getting very aggressive.  Believe it or not, I have toned down quite a bit since two years ago.  =)

Quote:
I recently found that JWs aren't supposed to read anything that contradicts their Watchtower propaganda, and they aren't supposed to read the Bible without Watchtower material to interpret it. So I don't know how successful you will be in getting her to pick up a book on the historicity of the Bible or on evolution, but at least you've given her resources - the rest is out of your hands.

When I first informed her of Act's author, she immediately said, "My Bible doesn't say that."  Which of course it doesn't.  If it did, it would mean that the author wasn't Paul, and therefore that would mean that there could be a possible interpretative quality to the narrative which she never would have expected.  It also means it could be wrong.

Quote:
Looking forward to the next installment - if there is one, assuming you didn't scare her off. 

We'll see.  I haven't heard anything back.  My hope is that she at least checks out some of that material before blowing me off completely for her dogmatic perspective.

Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server, which houses Celebrity Atheists. Books by Rook Hawkins (Thomas Verenna)

Wrong

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Rook_Hawkins's picture

UNO-WHO wrote:You guys crack

UNO-WHO wrote:

You guys crack me up. You supposed believers seem to think that that pamphlet you call the Bible is an encyclopedia, and you non-believers seem to think that because everything is not in there that what is in there is not true.

Try to imagine -- if I had chosen to give you the ability -- watching single-cell organisms living in one of earth's oceans arguing the who-what-where-when-why-how of humanity based on a recording of a dozen or so instances of their ancestors having had a brief contact with a human.

And, when was the last time any of you non-believers wasted hours arguing over whether a potter has the right -- moral or legal -- to throw into the dumpster those of his pots that turned out to be seconds and thirds.  The potter also has the right to salvage those pots he choses -- if he so choses.

I'm here. Reach out. I've never and will never trash a pot that acknowledges its situation and genuinely wants help.

Could you perhaps try to phrase things in proper English?  Whatever the hell you just said seems to defy the laws of grammar, somehow.

Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server, which houses Celebrity Atheists. Books by Rook Hawkins (Thomas Verenna)

HeyZeusCreaseToe's picture

I think he was saying...he

I think he was saying...he loves pot and shoddy potters as well. jk, lol.

Have you heard back from her

Have you heard back from her yet? I had a similar exchange of emails between me and a fundamentalist christian. The emails were pretty consistent at the beginning when I was trying to understand her beliefs and she thought she was converting me. After I had a good idea what she believed in I showed her all the contradictions in her beliefs and how her beliefs went against her own logic. The tone of the above email is about the same as the tone of the last one I sent to her. She never replied back after that. I see her occasionally and she is no longer friendly, if she acknowledges me at all. Shortly afterwards I found and understood the truth to my signature.

 

 

You cannot reason a person out of a position he did not reason himself into in the first place. - Jonathan Swift

Rook_Hawkins's picture

boonxeven wrote:Have you

boonxeven wrote:

Have you heard back from her yet? I had a similar exchange of emails between me and a fundamentalist christian. The emails were pretty consistent at the beginning when I was trying to understand her beliefs and she thought she was converting me. After I had a good idea what she believed in I showed her all the contradictions in her beliefs and how her beliefs went against her own logic. The tone of the above email is about the same as the tone of the last one I sent to her. She never replied back after that. I see her occasionally and she is no longer friendly, if she acknowledges me at all. Shortly afterwards I found and understood the truth to my signature.

 

She wrote back but it was not worth adding.  It was a short snippet along the lines of "I'm not here to learn I'm here to explain God's sovereignty."  It was at that point that I knew continuing the conversation would not be worth the time and effort I would be putting into it.

Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server, which houses Celebrity Atheists. Books by Rook Hawkins (Thomas Verenna)