Why would anyone want to believe something ike that!

Dissident1's picture

The christian model of salvation has, for all of christian history, been about man's defiance of god's will and a hero-saviour that appeases that god's wrath over this defiance. It is relatively simplistic, and straightforward. The god was a parent who issued directives at man the child, the child defiantly disobeyed the father-god's directive, and god smacked the child for disobedience. The father-god has been smacking the child-man ever since. Then one day the parent-god sends a special child-man down and smacks him around for a bit. This child-man gets smacked around in order to stop god from smacking around his brothers. Therefore, all you have to do is to believe that this special child-man existed and put your faith in that special child-man and father-god will stop smacking you around.

Today's believers like to qualify that by saying it was planned that way from the very beginning. The father-god started out with a plan to have defiant children that would disobey him so that he could smack them around and give them a saviour-hero that he would smack around so that the saviour-hero could give him an out from smacking all his child-men around. Yet, he would continue to smack those child-men around unless the believed in and served the will of the saviour-hero who bore the brunt of god's need to smack his child-men around.

It is so bloody absurd.

What is even more absurd is, people support the idea that this is a true and accurate picture of reality because they actually want to believe that it is so. They actually argue that it is beautiful to know that a parent-god allowed for someone else to get the spanking that the parent-god was going to give to them. They say that they actually wouldn't want to believe that their wasn't a parent-god smacking his child-men around, or that there wasn't a special child-man who was a saviour-hero who took the beating for their benefit.

Why?

I can only conclude that it is because people like violence and like to see kids getting beat. Perhaps that is why so many god-fearing parents end up beating their own children to death. They are just imitating what their own parent-god would do.

I am become death, destroyer of worlds

Holy_Spirit_is_Welcome's picture

A+ for creativity

After a harty laugh, because I haver never heard a misinterpretation quite like that before, I must help clarify:

God is holy, loving, just, merciful, infinite and unchanging.

-His love for humanity comes from his loving nature. 

-Man's sin (defined as disobedience to God's perfect will) conflicts with his holy nature.

-Punishment for Man's sin is in accordance with his just nature.

-Having sent Jesus to take the punishment for all humanity is his merciful nature, and it solves the problem of satisfying his just nature.

-This brings man back to God's loving nature.

Because God is infinite, a finite human cannot reconcile an infinite God's just nature, and therefore cannot appease him with mere good works, but rather faith in him which produces good works.

Because of his unchanging nature, there is no other alternative, now or to come, for a man to receive salvation.

Although, I do offer an A+ to you for creativity, the content has deceptive flaws as compared to the original plan of salvation found in the Bible.

Susan's picture

-Punishment for Man's sin

-Punishment for Man's sin is in accordance with his just nature.

Yeah, no doubt all those god fearing xians in New Orleans really deserved to lose what little they had (including family members). 

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Vastet's picture

Holy_Spirit_is_Welcome

Holy_Spirit_is_Welcome wrote:
After a harty laugh, because I haver never heard a misinterpretation quite like that before, I must help clarify:

There is no misinterpretation. You must not know christianity to suggest that it is.

Holy_Spirit_is_Welcome wrote:
God is holy, loving, just, merciful, infinite and unchanging.

I might note that you forgot to mention jealous and vengeful. Which makes the christian god impossibly contradictory.

Holy_Spirit_is_Welcome wrote:
-His love for humanity comes from his loving nature.  -Man's sin (defined as disobedience to God's perfect will) conflicts with his holy nature.

Maybe the god should have made us better then, instead of blaming us for his failure.

Holy_Spirit_is_Welcome wrote:
-Punishment for Man's sin is in accordance with his just nature.

What punishment do you speak of?

Holy_Spirit_is_Welcome wrote:
-Having sent Jesus to take the punishment for all humanity is his merciful nature, and it solves the problem of satisfying his just nature.

Ridiculous.

Holy_Spirit_is_Welcome wrote:
-This brings man back to God's loving nature. Because God is infinite, a finite human cannot reconcile an infinite God's just nature, and therefore cannot appease him with mere good works, but rather faith in him which produces good works.

If god wants to be believed in then he should show himself.

Holy_Spirit_is_Welcome wrote:
Because of his unchanging nature, there is no other alternative, now or to come, for a man to receive salvation. Although, I do offer an A+ to you for creativity, the content has deceptive flaws as compared to the original plan of salvation found in the Bible.

You obviously have no idea what you're talking about.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.

deludedgod's picture

God is holy, loving, just,

God is holy, loving, just, merciful, infinite and unchanging.

You have obviously never read the Bible

-His love for humanity comes from his loving nature.

The condradiction is inherent. Judging by the stories of the scripture, I think the word for God is filicidal. The idea that God created us, an event in which we had no choice, then enforced that we worship him, and follow his precise law, and he gives us "free will" but it really isn't because if we don't follow his commands verbatim we will be tossed into hell, which means he is essentially a despot. He created his children to be his slaves. Do you realize how utterly ridiculous the proposition of Abrahamic religion is?  

-Man's sin (defined as disobedience to God's perfect will) conflicts with his holy nature. \

This is another way of saying that God is so vindictive that he enforces ruthless, dictatorial jurisprudence upon his creations. If I were God, I would have better things to do. This is clearly absurd.

 -Punishment for Man's sin is in accordance with his just nature.

 You are merely restating that God is despotic and insane

 -Having sent Jesus to take the punishment for all humanity is his merciful nature, and it solves the problem of satisfying his just nature

Do you realize how ridiculous that is? Instead of forgiving sins, God has to sacrifice himself to himself for no reason whatsoever. The Jesus story merely proves the violent, physcotic nature of Abrahamic faith.

 -This brings man back to God's loving nature

Watching a man having his flesh stripped off and nailed to a cross has that effect on people

 Because God is infinite, a finite human cannot reconcile an infinite God's just nature, and therefore cannot appease him with mere good works, but rather faith in him which produces good works.

You have no idea what you are talking about. The concept was used countless times throughout history as a method of subjugating the ignorant. It has no basis in reality

 Because of his unchanging nature, there is no other alternative, now or to come, for a man to receive salvation

You are insane 

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

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Holy_Spirit_is_Welcome's picture

I am still learning

I am still learning obviously, but so far, I have found a few resounding truths:

-I don't know anything about science short of a fourth grade education because I am not an atheist.

-I as a Christian need to be corrected by an atheist because he knows much more than I do about my religion and the Bible, and his views are not going to be biased.

-If I want to prove something, I need not use unflawed logic, but merely contort the meaning of my apponent's statement, use words like "obviously" and then tell him how crazy/stupid/ignorant he is an how right I am.

Comments?

deludedgod's picture

-I don't know anything

-I don't know anything about science short of a fourth grade education because I am not an atheist.

Actually, some of hte most brilliant scientist now and through history were religious. You are twisting my words. I said you know nothing of science because you have clearly demonstrated that you know nothing about science. 

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

Books about atheism

Hambydammit's picture

Holy, you've not learned

Holy, you've not learned much since our discussion.  I documented how you had twisted my words, added new words, and avoided addressing my points, and then, per your pseudo-request, created a whole new thread devoted to a question you asked.  You ignored all of that and went on to new atheists, hoping they'd cut you more slack than me.

Your routine is getting old.  First, you make an unfounded or contradictory claim.  Next, an atheist points out the baseless nature or the inherent contradiction.  Then, you claim that us mean old atheists are besmirtching your name and calling you stupid -- without, of course, addressing anything anyone said.

I have no idea what you know or don't know.  I do know what you type on these threads, and I do know quite a bit about logic and science.  I can, using my brain, put these two pieces of the puzzle together and see if they match.

Science and your opinions don't match.  Logic and your opinions don't match.

Admit it, deal with it, ignore it, revel in it... but don't call us mean and abusive simply because you don't like to have it pointed out.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
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Holy_Spirit_is_Welcome's picture

_

So Hamby, where is that expose you promised me on how to ask proper questions?

You are right when you say you do not know how much I know.  I am writing on this site to gain an understanding of how the typical atheist behaves and thinks.  Most everyone is cooperating exceptionally.  The point is that I have a co-worker who is an ex-atheist, now agnostic, searching for the truth.  His heart is not like stone refusing to consider the possibility that he and the rest of the complex world were created by a God of some kind, and not from mere time, chance, and mishap.  As I learn the arguments that you athiests make and the stories attached to those arguments, you are informing me of what areas I need to study exactly, therefore better preparing me as a Christian. Thank you.

"You have rejected me, but when you are in trouble, you cry to me for help.  Go and cry to the gods you made! There should be enough of them to save you,"

Jeremiah 2:27b-28a

Holy_Spirit_is_Welcome's picture

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Vastet's picture

Holy_Spirit_is_Welcome

Holy_Spirit_is_Welcome wrote:
I don't know anything about science short of a fourth grade education because I am not an atheist.

No, you don't know about science because you don't know about science. It has nothing to do with atheism.

Holy_Spirit_is_Welcome wrote:
I as a Christian need to be corrected by an atheist because he knows much more than I do about my religion and the Bible, and his views are not going to be biased.

Bias is irrelevant. The bible says what it says. If you don't know what it says, then you don't know your religion as well as we do. Which is hardly surprising. Most christians don't in my experience.

Holy_Spirit_is_Welcome wrote:
If I want to prove something, I need not use unflawed logic, but merely contort the meaning of my apponent's statement, use words like "obviously" and then tell him how crazy/stupid/ignorant he is an how right I am.

Typical theist dodge.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.

Hambydammit's picture

The man who doesn't like to

The man who doesn't like to do his own research asked:

Quote:
So Hamby, where is that expose you promised me on how to ask proper questions?

 

Here's where I answered.

 

Care to look at the date I posted that forum topic?

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism