Kelly, I LOVE YOU , for what it's worth,

Always  , I will never forget the good luck of knowing you ....

.... as the sea doo god smiles upon you,

that wonderful you ,

yeah the season is cold, and religion is old

but hey , there's sea doo god, coming as always next season,  to the rescue .....

Summertime Blues,

yeah the blues suck, I hate playing the blues, but I do too .... and damn me

Misantropes unite!

I think it's for the most part knowingly. Which is why we have assassination, cannibalism, torture, rape, genocide, and a few other lovely examples of the altruism in society.

Alcohol comes to mind. Though I try to find interesting things to do.

Dont you just feel the sheer loving spirit of good old holiday? I do... and those people better learn to drive or they sure are going to feel it in their neck especially with a nice case of whiplash... I mean can't we all just get along?

You know we do   Though we don't ad hominem you to disprove you; because of such things. Hell I don't even know why any of us need to disprove you in anything.

First off I'd like to say, Good for you, Kelly! My fiancee is also a dancer. She doesn't do it as a job, but simply because she enjoys it. So every once in a while when she feels the need she will call up a club that knows her and schedules a time. It took me a little while to get used to her "strutting her stuff" for other guys, but we talked about it and I came to see it from her point of view. One condition I did make was that if she did dance I had to go with her. I trust no one else with her safety. She has had a very abusive past and I will go to any length to keep her safe and still let her enjoy herself as much as possible. She also has a sister who goes with her when she dances, they only go together or not at all. They are close enough that they could be twins. Now that is a sight to behold

For the record, when I was a theist, afterwards.

I actually really enjoyed this article.

I can still remember when strip clubs somehow repelled me. I used to be one of the ones that avoided them because I thought it was degrading to women. I finally attended one for my older brother's bachelor party, and it was extremely eye-opening.

"Oh! They WANT me to look at their boobies!"

It was the most stupidly obvious revelation of my life, you could probably say. One trip to a strip club cured me, not because my love of boobies became overpowering or anything, but because I realized the atmosphere in a strip club (a good one) is totally unlike anything I had imagined. There is really no place on earth like the inside of a really classy strip joint. It's not all about the boobies; it's about the atmosphere. (Okay, for some customers it's just about the boobies).

In short, I'd wager that if anyone thinks stripping is degrading to women, they've probably never been inside a strip club.

Kelly, I'm constantly puzzled by people who claim to be freethinkers or libertarians, or some such, who will drone on for hours about everyone's personal rights, only to advocate censorship or outlawing something that they're not personally comfortable with.

What part of this is difficult to understand? Unless I superglue sandpaper to the inside of my palms, I'm very unlikely to be injured by going to a strip club. Likewise, the stripper is only going to benefit from the steady stream of money flowing out of my pockets.

It's not just Japan that's comfortable with porn (although the blurry naughty bits is a puzzle to me...) Late night German TV is a thing to behold. Really. For that matter, America seems uniquely puritanical with regard to the female figure. Have you ever seen the collections of funny commercials from other countries? They almost always involve boobs.

Some strippers do drugs. Some Wall Street investors do, too. I'm happy to say that my girlfriend and I go to strip clubs, and we've never been abducted, never had drugs slipped into our martinis, and never felt degraded. We're friends with a couple of the girls at the club here. They're nice people. They appreciate the money, and it's kind of fun for them to have people they know. They can be a little goofy with us in ways they can't with a complete stranger. It's fun.

Yes, we look at our friends' boobs and give them money. It's fun. What in the world could possibly be wrong about it? I can't actually think of anything good about our collective boobophobia. Look on the internet sometime for Mardi Gras Flashing pictures. There are thousands of girls whose pictures are all over the world. Maybe millions of people see their boobs. Does this mean they can't go out to dinner tonight? Will they no longer love their boyfriends?

Only if they are bothered by it. If they're bothered by it, it's not because everyone is judging them. It's because they're judging themselves. The whole attitude of women "lowering" themselves by being naked is insane. Just insane. If women ever wanted to put themselves back under the thumb of men, the easiest way to do it would be to take away their right to dress (or not) however they want.

In the rest of the world, there is art on public display praising the beauty of women. Here, the country goes into a collective shit fit over a nipple and a wardrobe malfunction.

Ok, now for my most Un-PC statement of the rant. I've noticed that most of the women who bitch and scream about women being too "loose" with their clothing or their morals don't have the figures to do it themselves. I really, really hate that. I have scrawny arms, a beer gut, and a bald head, but you don't see me crying that I can't get model girlfriends, or that I can't do underwear ads. I developed my brain instead.

I wish people would just accept the fact that people are different, and let everyone use what they have.

You know you have won an arguement when the other people start resorting to circumstantial ad hominems. Keep up the good work.

I have a friend that fits that description. She actually owns one of those "I hate pretty people" T-shirts you sometimes find in goth-oriented stores. She bitches about girls in skimpy clothing acting "slutty", but as soon as "her guys" (She's one of those girls who insists she only has guy friends, and insists on referring to them as "my guys" ) start treating her as if she is sexy at all, the story is completely different.

She'd get pissed if anyone called her on it, but if she had the body for it, she'd dress just as loosely, and I'm sure she knows it.

But other than being a self-conscious crybaby, she's pretty cool. 

Nicely done, Kelly.  Human being reduced to nothing more than bags of chemicals, and life support systems for genitalia.  Wonderful!

Er... what?

I found nothing in the article that seems to match up at all with that comment...

That's what I thought, but whatever. Assholes are assholes, and I wish I were male so that the chemical interactions in my brain would cause me to tell he/she to suck my genitalia.

K...I'll explain...

Family members (people) as bags of chemicals.

If women choose to be identified, objectified as nothing more than a life support system for tits and snatch, they are entitled to so degrade themselves.

Geez...you intellectuals...

K... now I'll explain...

This wasn't meant to treat people as nothing more than bags of chemicals. It was a stylistic way of saying that she has nothing in common with her family members other than the fact that they are related. I personally thought it was completely obvious.

I think you were just scrutinizing the article for something you could throw rocks at. 

You obviously completely missed the point. If a woman makes the choice to be a stripper/lapdancer because she is proud of her sexuality, then between the two of you, YOU are the only one who thinks she is being degraded. She could really give a shit what you have to say about it. If you stop viewing yourself as the moral center of the universe for a minute, you may realize that this means that she is NOT degrading herself.

At best, one could say that people like you are trying to degrade her. She would probably appreciate it if you would knock that shit off.

An attempt at cleverness (?) from the person who just proved (twice!) his terrible reading comprehension.

Has anyone besides me noticed that the vast majority of people who are interested in "liberating" women from "degradation" propose doing so by telling women that they're not smart enough to decide on their own what they want to do?

Has it never occurred to any of you that it's kind of degrading for a woman to have a man tell her how she really feels?

(Hint: Sorry, woman.  You're not smart enough to know how you really feel.  Trust me.  You're being degraded.)

That excuse doesn't work. Adrianne Curry:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lp0umBVWSk

43 seconds in. 

37. His disciples said, "When will you appear to us, and when will we see you?"

Jesus said, "When you strip without being ashamed, and you take your clothes and put them under your feet like little children and trample then, then [you] will see the son of the living one and you will not be afraid."

From the Gospel of Thomas.  Sorry couldn't resist it.

 Kelly wrote:

Anybody who talks about "Christmas spirit" has obviously never been to a mall during the month of December.

Arrgh yes I am so agreeing with you, something that serves the sole purpose of making perfectly healthy happy individuals suddenly feel and act like the world is crashing down on them, it's evil I tells Ya!

I don't think you need telling, but I'll say it anyway cause I feel it, you're alright Kelly don't let it get you down.

hi Kelly,

I thought you made quite a few good points.  There's just one statement I had a question about: "Not stereotypical at all--totally accurate. There is no concept of eternal damnation outside of the unfortunate people who have been sucked into christianity."

Is this really true?  Before xtianity we had judiasm, the Hades of the Greeks, and many other "hell type" concepts.  The concept of an "under" or "nether" world has been around for a long time, heck, I think xtianity stole it from paganism, and then islam from xtianity and judiasm. I do know that the jewish hell was not eternal-was the hades one and some of the others not either? Just wondering.

Actually, are they really unrelated? People tend to read porn on their time off work, which is usally the holidays.

 I was speaking specifically about the Japanese, but while we're here...the Israelites really had no "hell". It was referred to as "sheol" but it was more of just ending, ceasing to exist, than torture. Otherwise, I agree, there were lots of hells before the christian one.

Eloise, if at all possible could you not agree with Kelly again?  I'm worried about her head, she's likely to bang it hard if you keep making her fall out of her chair like that.   

The question of whether or not an activity is degrading to a person or a group does not relate to whether or not it feels degrading to the people engaged in it. Rather, it relates to how that activity effects broad perception of them. Strippers are widely seen as being dishonest, intellectually inferior, and devoid of other marketable assets. This is not surprising. Chasing easy money by exploiting the weaknesses of others is not seen as a redeeming quality in our society, and the willingness to take off your clothes for precisely that purpose would certainly seem to suggest a failure of other methods of obtaining income.

Now, you could argue that stripping shouldn't be degrading to women, but arguing that it does not degrade women (either specifically or generally) is a position founded in abject ignorance.

I understand the desire to show off. It's part of why I sing karaoke, but it's one thing to show off a skill to the public for free and another thing to dishonestly exploit your audience's sexual desires for profit.

To relatives, if genes is all you have in common with them, I would suggest that someone, somewhere, screwed up.

The holidays are a time (arbitrarily, as are many others) set aside to interact with your friends and relatives. Most people cherish this time, and for most adults, it is unforced.

Christmas, particularly, can be difficult for atheists, but I actually quite enjoy it, rampant commercialism and all. The key thing to remember is that axial tilt is the reason for the season.

I disagree that such activity is inherently "degrading". It may be if you care what people think about you, but I don't. They are incapable of "stripping me of my self-esteem or self-worth" as the definition of degrade states. Is it a result of my current inability to obtain more lucrative employment--sure. But, no matter what job I had, I couldn't work as little as I do and live. I couldn't make my own schedule which is necessary for me. There are multiple reasons why this job works for me right now.

I am speaking of myself and myself only. I have already stated that if one feels degraded by the job, then it isn't for her. I don't think that you could possibly call me ignorant in reference to a job that I have done, and I presume you haven't. 

I see nothing dishonest in taking money from a willing clientele.

I don't care for my relatives because I never had a close relationship with them and I have no desire to. Most of them are ignorant rednecks with whom I have nothing in common.

I can interact with my friends and whomever else I choose whenever I choose--I don't have to wait for christmyass to do it.

It's easy to confuse this issue because everybody feels so strongly about it. Let's look at it objectively, ok?

de·grade /dɪˈgreɪd or, for 3, diˈgreɪd/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[di-greyd or, for 3, dee-greyd] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation verb, -grad·ed, -grad·ing. –verb (used with object)

4,5, and 6 don't apply to women stripping. 1, 2, and 3, all have something in common -- they all mean lowering something that is dependent on other people. Rank, character, etc... all require other people. I can't very well be virtuous if I'm on an island by myself. There's nobody to commit a crime against.

Character, morality, etc, are not set in stone. (Unless you're a theist.) They vary depending on the situation, the culture, the people involved, etc.

In other words, the most you can say about stripping is this:

"Stripping degrades those women who believe stripping degrades women, and stripping degrades women in the eyes of those who believe stripping degrades women."

Or, put another way:

"Stripping does not degrade those women who believe stripping does not degrade women, and stripping does not degrade women in the eyes of those who do not believe that stripping degrades women."

It's going around your ass to get to your elbow, but the fact is, degradation is in the eye of the beholder and the participant. You don't get to tell people what they "really" feel, just because you really feel that way.

 Now, you might object that belief does not necessarily mean truth, and sometimes there are external realities.  However, you're going to run into the same thing again.  You're just putting off the inevitable.

It's true that stripping degrades one's chance of, say, running for president.  Your individual belief about your chances doesn't alter the public's perception of them, so you can objectively say that stripping degrades women.

Only you can't.  Some women don't believe being president is a good thing.  Some men don't believe it.  I, for one, would trust a stripper over a president any day.

You see, anything you can come up with... drug use, prostitution, employment ceiling, marriage desirability... anything... there are those who don't see those things as necessarily good or bad.  In the end, it's always going to come down to what someone believes about something that isn't objectively good or bad outside of those beliefs.

   I Love girls ! cool Eloise

.... Jesus said, "When you strip without being ashamed, .... "

 and Kelly , check out this girl, she seems  cool,  

http://www.kellieeverts.com/

she strips for god ! .... no, not god of abe .... ?

giggles on ya ....

Hambydammit, your definitions are good, but your analysis is somewhat flawed.

 It's not about what someone believes. More particularly, it's not about what the stripper, her friends, or the small segment of society that find nothing wrong with stripping believe.

 It's about what society, as taken from the consensus of the masses, believes. And the masses see stripping as degrading in both the specific and the general to women.

You can argue that society shouldn't feel this way. You can agitate for a change in this perception, but you cannot argue that stripping is not degrading to women in the context of american, north american, or even global society.

If you think that's the definition of "degrade," your dictionary needs help. Degradation isn't something you feel. It's something that happens to you, and it's all about the esteem of others. You may not care about degrading yourself or your gender in the eyes of others, but you cannot honestly argue that it's not happening.

In most business interactions, there is a clear exchange of value for value. Money is provided in exchange for some good or service. These interactions are seen as dishonest if the value on one side greatly exceeds the value on the other.

In the business interaction of stripping particularly, the only thing of particular value being exchanged is the money. Visible human flesh, even attractive, even in motion, is commonplace and cheap.

This is why the business is seen as dishonest. You're raking in the dough doing nothing special with nothing special. There's got to be a con in that somewhere.

For most people, relation forms the basis of common experience, which most people enjoy. It's fine if you have a problem with your relatives and vice-versa, but my point still stands. Someone, somewhere, screwed up.

It's nice that you get to see the folks you choose to interact with whenever you like. Most people have jobs and far-flung relations that make this difficult. Christmas is a day set aside by law and custom for such interactions, and this is a thing of value in and of itself, setting aside how you might feel about invisible sky-daddies and fairy-tale creatures that provide annual incentives for acceptable juvenile behavior.

And the solstice is cool enough by itself, even without all that.

Dictionaries do not define words based on any inherent meaning. They define words based on how they are commonly used by the majority. It sounds to me like YOU have a definition problem, not vice-versa. 

That's only true if we accept your definition of degredation (the one where you claim the common usage isn't the real meaning). I think young-earth Christians are degrading themselves, but they definitely wouldn't agree. 

Unless the item you're buying is on sale and has been marked down! =D 

There are two kinds of economic exchanges.

1) Trading currency for goods.

2) Trading currency for services.

Stripping is a service. If you don't find it to be a valuable service, then you simply shouldn't invest in it, just like a person who didn't own a car would not pay for a car wash. 

 Soap and water are common place and cheap. Are carwashes dishonest?

Actually, they're presenting the flesh and the sexiness without the man having to do any work for it, or even have any kind of charisma. A man with no skills whatsoever can go into a strip club and still feel like pimp of the year... if he's willing to pay for it. Some gents are willing, while others are not. 

So you're only speculating after all.

It makes sense that a person who feels like they get to tell other people when they are being degraded would feel like they get to tell someone that they have family problems. That's so nosy, it's almost theistic. =P

I don't have anything in common with my family either, and for that reason I really can't stand getting together with the family for the holidays. But that doesn't mean I don't love my family. I get along with them just fine. They're nice people, and I like to think I'm a generally nice person. But we have absolutely nothing in common. If I could skip the family get-together at Christmas, I probably would. I'd rather just stand around in some relative's kitchen eating cookies and talking about how much I wish dad would shut the fuck up about Dr. Phil than sit around a tree with them because "that's what you do on Christmas".

I can't speak for Kelly because I don't know what her family thing is like, and I think its kind of ballsy for you to suggest you know what's "wrong with her" (obviously if she's a stripper, her dad must have ignored her or something, right?).

Plenty of people have nothing in common with their families. That's why it's such a common joke in holiday comedies.

Just because a holiday is viewed as a time set aside for family, and just because it's valuable to people with closer relationships with their families who don't get to see their family often, doesn't mean that Kelly is breaking any kind of rule by not utilizing the holiday in that way.

And if there IS going to be a designated day for gathering together with your family, I think the pretenses are very important. If there was some kind of "family day" where the point was simply to see your family, that would be great. But when you have a religious family, it's not just about the family. It's about togetherness with your family, and it's about the story of Jesus.

My mom and dad make one of their kids read the Christmas story out of the bible every year. Two of their kids now refuse (me being one of them), and only 1 out of their 5 children is still religious at all, but they still do it. They also insist that we pray for meals at all family gatherings, which is incredibly annoying. I'm sure they would be pissed as hell if I put on my The God Who Wasn't There DVD and just started casually watching it while the family was romping around.

I guess what I'm saying is, I know that I'm not there because Jesus was born in a manger or some shit, but mom and dad love it that I'm there for that very reason, which is, frankly, kind of annoying.

I like to wish people a Merry Winter Solstice.

Or if some "clever" xian wishes me a "Happy Jesus's Birthday", I like to wish them a "Happy Amaterasu's Emergence From A Cave!"

That may be the most offensive and ignorant comment I've seen for at least...alright, 2 days, but anyway...I bust my ass at work performing. I assume that actors and actresses are also involved in some con to make all the money that they do for nothing particularly special. What an asshole. You try dancing around all night long in 7 inch heels and spinning around poles and see how quickly you tire out--if you don't fall flat on your face first. As far as doing nothing special with nothing special--last time I checked, the average woman's body looks nothing like mine, not even mentioning the fact that I have 3 children. So, with that said, kindly fuck off.

Well, Jedi, I'd refute you some more, but arc and kelly have said most of what I would say, anyway.   If you'd like me to go linguistic on your ass, I will, but frankly, I think your own foot is far enough up it that you don't need any more assistance.

Whenever a questionable cat joins our site, our crack staff researches said person so we know what we're dealing with.  Early research on jedibear turns up some interesting quotes.

Apparently his attitude has gotten him banned from some geek board...

It seems that Jedibear has a history of being banned for this sort of activity.  Jedibear if you want to hang around I suggest you read our own batch of rules. 

Is it possible jedibear has an axe to grind with a girl he gave a c-note too at the club and didn't go home with him, merely danced on his lap?  Of course, this lap dance from a gorgeous woman is something that jedibear is capable of attaining for free whenever he wants, and he views her lack of willingness to go home with him as a con.  I'm just starting to theorize.  A completely clueless geek could easily walk in a strip club with some sort of false notion that he's actually got a chance with any of the girls in there.  That's the whole point.  It's a fantasy world where men can attain something they are not normally able to attain.  That's not a con, it's one of the oldest, legit, and important businesses in the history of mankind.  The line gets blurred when people falsely assume they can expect anything other than the ride of their life that most likely they'd never get in the real world.  If you don't think that's a legit business arrangement, I'm not sure what would constitute a legit business arrangement. 

Spending money on some battletech EVE geekazoid game that consumes your life could be viewed as a con as well.  Seriously, spend some time doing something important, not bitching about everything in between your fake battles on a video game that consumes your life.

When you have a post that starts out "Worst Day Ever" and it starts out by saying...

Sounds like a con to me.  You've allowed yourself to get consumed by a game!   

Ok... so I'm joking a little.  I couldn't ever conceive of a world where I would title a post "worst day ever" and then talk about my performance in a video game.  My worst day ever post would have something more to do with the night I received my most serious death threat due to trying to end the biggest conspiracy on Earth (religion) and had to get the FBI involved.  I recognize you weren't saying this was the worst day of your life, but simply addressing the issue in the way you did puts you and "us" in entirely different worlds.  Worlds so different from each other, that it might become impossible to communicate effectively with each other.

 FWIW: Based on your resume you'd have been the perfect candidate for a developer position here.

Dislcaimers:

1. If you are a geek consumed by a computer game in your mid 20's and you like us, then none of the above pertains to you.

2. Yes, I know I didn't actually address anything he was saying.

The con, the nothing special, commonplace, cheap thing in this equation is money. The only degradation or dishonesty I see in your argument is the notion that money subsumes the worth of anything about Kelly.

ps: sorry if this is shockingly agreeable, Kelly, please watch your head.

I'm reading The Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and now I have a sneaking suspicion, Kelly, that you were produced in the stripper factory in FSM Heaven. I think that makes you an angel or something. 

Excellent argumentation, and I applaud you for your courage and continued effort. 

Christophiliac is Classic! I like Christianist personally, but may start using them interchangeably.

There can definitely be a healthy psychological component when interacting with smart women in a club, having a nice convo, and fulfilling a necessary part of your humanity to connect with someone you find attractive. Although I would have to say the best part is having beautiful breasts bounce in front of you for a small fee. I see nothing wrong with it as long as you both understand the situation is a business transaction that does not necessitate the woman subjugating herself completely to the will of the man just because he has money.

 Y'know, I've never been to a strip club. I've never had friends who wanted to go all that badly, since they're all family-types. Not to detract from whatever joy you get from the job, Kelly, but a dancing naked girl isn't enough to make me pay $10 for a beer.

I applaud any woman willing to take the money of suckers who are paying to watch them be naked. Well done, I say. (This from a currency speculator - taking a sucker's money is how I live.) The degraded person there isn't the woman.

It's always about the power dynamic anyway. The real victory of feminism is precisely your ability to do that job and not feel trapped by it. If you did feel trapped, then it certainly would be degrading, but since that's not the case, how is it even a problem?

Ya, going to a strip club is  like going to a restaurant where you they just wave the food in front of your face but don't let you eat it.

Porn is like watching a video of other people eating but you just have to imagine you're eating.

But to each his own. I actually think porn, stipping, prostituion should be legal. What I think is terrible is using sex to sell shitty products in public formats. Like the Coors Twins on the billboards, I don't get to have sex with them if I drink Rocky Mountain Goat Piss. Seems like this is bait and switch advertising, it should be banned in public.