Ranting on holidays and porn...two completely unrelated topics

kellym78's picture

"Hereby it is manifest that during the time men live without a common power to keep them all in awe, they are in that condition which is called war; and such a war as is of every man against every man. For war consisteth not in battle only, or the act of fighting, but in a tract of time, wherein the will to contend by battle is sufficiently known: and therefore the notion of time is to be considered in the nature of war, as it is in the nature of weather. For as the nature of foul weather lieth not in a shower or two of rain, but in an inclination thereto of many days together: so the nature of war consisteth not in actual fighting, but in the known disposition thereto during all the time there is no assurance to the contrary. All other time is peace.

Whatsoever therefore is consequent to a time of war, where every man is enemy to every man, the same consequent to the time wherein men live without other security than what their own strength and their own invention shall furnish them withal. In such condition there is no place for industry, because the fruit thereof is uncertain: and consequently no culture of the earth; no navigation, nor use of the commodities that may be imported by sea; no commodious building; no instruments of moving and removing such things as require much force; no knowledge of the face of the earth; no account of time; no arts; no letters; no society; and which is worst of all, continual fear, and danger of violent death; and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short." Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan, Chapter 13

 

Well, happy New Year...I guess. Sorry if that seems slightly pessimistic, but I can hardly stand the gratuitous platitudes that are seemingly necessary in our society. So, I'm going to do something a little unusual in a belated celebration of this one day turning into another that just happens to have a different number at the end of the date. I'm not going to be responding to the D'Souza's of the world. It's not for lack of material-if anything, it's the overwhelming abundance of drivel that I have to sift through that has caused me to feel completely overwhelmed by this task. There is so much mindless nonsense that gets foisted onto a dumbed-down and apathetic populace that I rue my ability to see that we're all just knee-deep in shit. Sometimes it seems that ignorance truly is bliss.

 

I don't find it surprising at all that so many of the visionaries of our past and present were so prone to melancholy and drug abuse. It seems that the ability to comprehend the sometimes harsh reality of existence on this rock is both wondrous and terrifying. Having to interact with the other members of your species is just the icing on the cake. The senseless violence that we inflict upon each other, knowingly or not, the careless insensitivity with which we disregard those whom we, or those before us, have determined are enemies, is evidence of the solitary existence of which Hobbes spoke. We can only see things from inside our own experience, and it seems that the gap between two people will never truly be reconciled. For those of us who desire more than the typical diet of fast food, shitty news, and reality shows, how shall we numb ourselves?

 

Maybe it's just the season. I never could stand the "holidays". Endless days of forced interaction with people who share some percentage of your genetic makeup and nothing more. Why do we have to invent excuses to do the things that we should be doing every day? Anybody who talks about "Christmas spirit" has obviously never been to a mall during the month of December. Not only is their mythical savior a bunch of mythologized bullshit, but even they cannot help but succumb to total misanthropy while trying to find a parking space at Wal-Mart. At any rate, I'm in a rut right now.

 

Whatever. People will, I'm sure, find some excuse to attack me (and likely every atheist on the planet, so I apologize in advance) for my honesty here, and this is pretty uncharacteristic of me, but for once, I don't fucking care. I have something that I want to address here, and maybe I'll feel better after I just lay it on the table for everybody to see.

 

Ever since the Radar magazine article, the most popular way to attempt to discredit me is to refer to my "other job". I can't look at my Google alerts without seeing something about "lap-dancing Kelly" or some other lame attempt to influence people's opinions of me and my intellect. Well, guess what? I like my job. I see through your façade of propriety and know that you probably get a hard-on thinking about me giving anybody a lap dance. I'm not going to go into details, but as far as I'm concerned, any woman with the assets and attitude to do this job is stupid for not doing it. All the Christophiliacs (that's what I'm naming your disorder and if you don't like it you can fuck off) just can't stand the fact that anybody enjoys and maybe even revels in their sexuality. I'm sorry that you have such a complex about it. Do you pray for forgiveness before or after you masturbate?

 

Philadelphia Weekly recently ran the story on Margaret Downey and FSGP's Tree of Knowledge which included a few blurbs about the RRS, and my boobs, entitled "Taking Christ Out of Christmas". The next week, the same publication ran a segment on me that had nothing to do with religion and just had some of my thoughts on stripping. I hesitated to publicize it because of the complaints and attacks that I'm sure will result, but then I decided otherwise. Especially after I saw that it was one of their most popular online articles, right behind "Taking Christ Out of Christmas". Here's my quote from that article:

"I'm a nude psychologist. Most people who come into the club and spend a lot of money just want to connect to another person. The fact that it's a barely clothed attractive female is a bonus. I don't call myself a dancer, because it always leads to people asking, ‘What kind of dancing?' The kind where I swing around brass poles and rub my ass on people for money. If you have a problem, it's your issue. You should find out why you feel threatened by it. It takes a certain kind of personality to do this. You have to enjoy the attention. People talk about how stripping is degrading; I see it as the exact opposite. When I'm onstage, I'm in power because you can't control yourself. Everyone sells themselves. Whatever it is, you sell a part of yourself that's better than what other people have. I'm just using what I have at my disposal."

 

Attention haters: I don't care if you call me a lap dancer/stripper/slut/big-tittied bitch or whatever else of which your convoluted Christ-tarded minds can think.

 

I had previously written a response to a post on our boards that got lost in a server crash, so I'm going to reprint it here for your viewing pleasure. It was a question about Japan, pornography, and its effects. For anybody who doesn't know, I lived in Japan for three years and just wanted to share my experience, which ended up turning into a rant on porn and feminism. Have fun.

 

Technarch wrote:

Not to stereotype or anything, but Japan tends to be less raised on puritanical beliefs of eternal damnation based on disobeying some moral code, despite its adherence to social norms and custom.

 

Not stereotypical at all--totally accurate. There is no concept of eternal damnation outside of the unfortunate people who have been sucked into christianity.

 

Technarch:

Though some might argue that a restrictive social code lends to repressed feelings that are expressed more readily in art.

 

Also agreed. Japan is a perfect case in point.

 

Technarch:

Or perhaps everyone is repressed, but religion tends to stifle various expressions of repression due to a stated repurcussion of some kind.

 

I'm sure that everybody IS repressed at least slightly in some way. Some of that is necessary for a functional society without mass chaos. Most is unnecessary and harmful.

 

Technarch:

Anyway, Japan has lots of porn. The normal porn only goes as far as the limits of physics, but drawn porn tends to go further. Hermaphrodite tentacle rape gangbangs, sex with animals, monsters, and demons, scat and gore wherein some imaginative artist gets to draw whatever the hell they imagine. Now this is great from an expressive standpoint- the id, in all its creative glory, showing anything it wants without fear of protestors carrying signs and saying "BURN IN HELL FOR THY TRANSGRESSION." So assume that America doesn't have this moral stigma of "If I draw whatever I think about, I may go to Hell."

 

The hentai shit gets crazy, but businessmen read it on the trains in front of everybody. I can remember sitting next to a guy on the shinkansen (bullet train) who was reading a porn mag. The weird thing is that porn is on public access TV late night weekends, but they can't show genitalia--they blur it out. They can, however, show money shots, and that makes the whole experience weird. Stuff coming out of a big blurry object? O_o

 

Technarch:

Now America has all the porn it can imagine. Is this a bad thing? Feminists may argue that such musings are inherently degrading to women and therefore wrong. So do you ignore feminism, or do you support feminism and say "don't draw degrading porn?" This is based on a scenario of say, 1000% more porn than there is now. Do you reject this flood of porn based on some societal code, or do you accept it as the right to express whatever the hell you want to create as long as you can ignore it?

 

People have the right to express themselves in whatever way they choose, especially in anime or drawn art, as long as they are not infringing upon the rights of another person. The whole feminism/porn issue is incredibly irritating to me (Obviously, I have had to listen to that shit ever since I started dancing a long-ass time ago.) Not all women enter the sex-industry to support a drug habit or because their father sexually abused them. Not all women are degraded by their jobs. Some enjoy it. Like all jobs, although I only have experience in dancing and not at all in porn, it has its ups and downs. Personally, I would feel degraded working at Wal-mart for 6.25 an hour.

 

The issue at stake is freedom of choice, which is an incredibly serious issue. The Religious Right or the uber-feminists (NOW, for example, makes me want to not be a woman just so I can say that they do not represent me) would have that freedom removed. I would not have the choice to do a job that I don't find degrading and would be forced to do one that I DO find degrading. One could even argue that stripping, in particular, has helped women due to the sheer number of women whose college degrees were paid for solely because of that industry.

 

Therefore, they would be infringing upon MY rights, and those of many other women, if they had their way and shut down porn and strip clubs. In an ideal world, would it be necessary to strip to make enough money to live--maybe not. But, in an ideal world, we wouldn't want roofers sweating to death in 100 degree heat either. It would be like Star Trek where everybody pursues their passions and nobody is forced into menial labor positions. (Don't hold your breath.)

 

(This is getting really fucking long...)

 

My position on "feminism" is that it entails the belief that a woman can choose what she wants to do--and that should include working in the sex industry. The whole movement was about CHOICE--how ironic that they want to take choices away from other women now.

 

Technarch:

This is an assertion, being More Atheism = More porn. Or, lack of being told "you'll burn in hell" means lack of fear from creating whatever kind of porn you want.

 

Not necessarily true. Most sex industry workers believe in god, but their god approves of their job, or at least excuses it. You can also go here for stats on christian porn consumption.

 

Technarch:

So, assuming more porn is created, of whatever kind, which does not have to adhere to any social code such as Feminist ideals, then, would you be ok with more porn? Would you mind? Or would you prefer it conform to some social expectation first? Would you object on grounds of it being addictive or disruptive, such as preventing efficient work or stable family raising or social interaction or causing bruises after prolonged use?

 

I think it should be entirely up to each individual. Some women may be uncomfortable with a partner who watches porn or frequents strip clubs. That's fine. The answer is not outlawing either--it's not being with somebody whose values differ from yours in important areas. Anything can be addictive--let's outlaw WoW before porn, please. Sticking out tongue I must admit that when I first moved to Japan, the sight of a billboard ad for a porn movie with a topless woman on it (dressed in a nun's habit *lol*) was shocking, but it's only because I am unaccustomed to it. Everybody else was walking by it with their kids like it was nothing. I had to think about my gut reaction to that ad and digest it for a while, and this was after I had been a dancer for two years. It was good for me, and it would benefit others to really consider the true origin of their opposition to porn.

 

Overall, I would say, after living there for three years, that part of Japan's porn obsession is related to being a little too tightly wound on the conformity front, but that overall, they are not any worse off for it. You can buy porn out of vending machines on street corners and see it on public TV. Their society isn't falling apart at the seams. The status of women is slightly more like that of 1950's America, but they are slowly progressing, just as we did. As a matter of fact, some women may use the sex industry as their ticket to freedom--whether that is a bad relationship or getting an education.

 

Everybody sells some aspect of themselves--your intelligence, skills, brute strength, looks, whatever-- it helps some and it hurts some, but so does every other industry on the planet.

 

Atheist Books

   Kelly, I LOVE YOU ,

   Kelly, I LOVE YOU , for what it's worth,

Always  , I will never forget the good luck of knowing you ....

.... as the sea doo god smiles upon you,

that wonderful you ,

yeah the season is cold, and religion is old

but hey , there's sea doo god, coming as always next season,  to the rescue .....

Summertime Blues,

yeah the blues suck, I hate playing the blues, but I do too .... and damn me

  

munky99999's picture

Quote: Having to interact

Quote:
Having to interact with the other members of your species is just the icing on the cake.

Misantropes unite!

Quote:
The senseless violence that we inflict upon each other, knowingly or not,

I think it's for the most part knowingly. Which is why we have assassination, cannibalism, torture, rape, genocide, and a few other lovely examples of the altruism in society.

 

Quote:
how shall we numb ourselves?

Alcohol comes to mind. Though I try to find interesting things to do.

Quote:
Not only is their mythical savior a bunch of mythologized bullshit, but even they cannot help but succumb to total misanthropy while trying to find a parking space at Wal-Mart.

Dont you just feel the sheer loving spirit of good old holiday? I do... and those people better learn to drive or they sure are going to feel it in their neck especially with a nice case of whiplash... I mean can't we all just get along?

 

Quote:
Ever since the Radar magazine article, the most popular way to attempt to discredit me is to refer to my "other job". I can't look at my Google alerts without seeing something about "lap-dancing Kelly" or some other lame attempt to influence people's opinions of me and my intellect. Well, guess what? I like my job. I see through your façade of propriety and know that you probably get a hard-on thinking about me giving anybody a lap dance.

You know we do Smiling  Though we don't ad hominem you to disprove you; because of such things. Hell I don't even know why any of us need to disprove you in anything.

First off I'd like to say,

First off I'd like to say, Good for you, Kelly! My fiancee is also a dancer. She doesn't do it as a job, but simply because she enjoys it. So every once in a while when she feels the need she will call up a club that knows her and schedules a time. It took me a little while to get used to her "strutting her stuff" for other guys, but we talked about it and I came to see it from her point of view. One condition I did make was that if she did dance I had to go with her. I trust no one else with her safety. She has had a very abusive past and I will go to any length to keep her safe and still let her enjoy herself as much as possible. She also has a sister who goes with her when she dances, they only go together or not at all. They are close enough that they could be twins. Now that is a sight to behold Laughing

 

I am diagonally parked in a parallel universe.

Zombie's picture

For the record, when I was a

For the record, when I was a theist, afterwards. Eye-wink

Archeopteryx's picture

I actually really enjoyed

I actually really enjoyed this article.

I can still remember when strip clubs somehow repelled me. I used to be one of the ones that avoided them because I thought it was degrading to women. I finally attended one for my older brother's bachelor party, and it was extremely eye-opening.

"Oh! They WANT me to look at their boobies!"

It was the most stupidly obvious revelation of my life, you could probably say. One trip to a strip club cured me, not because my love of boobies became overpowering or anything, but because I realized the atmosphere in a strip club (a good one) is totally unlike anything I had imagined. There is really no place on earth like the inside of a really classy strip joint. It's not all about the boobies; it's about the atmosphere. (Okay, for some customers it's just about the boobies).

In short, I'd wager that if anyone thinks stripping is degrading to women, they've probably never been inside a strip club.

A place common to all will be maintained by none. A religion common to all is perhaps not much different.

Hambydammit's picture

Kelly, I'm constantly

Kelly, I'm constantly puzzled by people who claim to be freethinkers or libertarians, or some such, who will drone on for hours about everyone's personal rights, only to advocate censorship or outlawing something that they're not personally comfortable with.

What part of this is difficult to understand? Unless I superglue sandpaper to the inside of my palms, I'm very unlikely to be injured by going to a strip club. Likewise, the stripper is only going to benefit from the steady stream of money flowing out of my pockets.

It's not just Japan that's comfortable with porn (although the blurry naughty bits is a puzzle to me...) Late night German TV is a thing to behold. Really. For that matter, America seems uniquely puritanical with regard to the female figure. Have you ever seen the collections of funny commercials from other countries? They almost always involve boobs.

Some strippers do drugs. Some Wall Street investors do, too. I'm happy to say that my girlfriend and I go to strip clubs, and we've never been abducted, never had drugs slipped into our martinis, and never felt degraded. We're friends with a couple of the girls at the club here. They're nice people. They appreciate the money, and it's kind of fun for them to have people they know. They can be a little goofy with us in ways they can't with a complete stranger. It's fun.

Yes, we look at our friends' boobs and give them money. It's fun. What in the world could possibly be wrong about it? I can't actually think of anything good about our collective boobophobia. Look on the internet sometime for Mardi Gras Flashing pictures. There are thousands of girls whose pictures are all over the world. Maybe millions of people see their boobs. Does this mean they can't go out to dinner tonight? Will they no longer love their boyfriends?

Only if they are bothered by it. If they're bothered by it, it's not because everyone is judging them. It's because they're judging themselves. The whole attitude of women "lowering" themselves by being naked is insane. Just insane. If women ever wanted to put themselves back under the thumb of men, the easiest way to do it would be to take away their right to dress (or not) however they want.

In the rest of the world, there is art on public display praising the beauty of women. Here, the country goes into a collective shit fit over a nipple and a wardrobe malfunction.

Ok, now for my most Un-PC statement of the rant. I've noticed that most of the women who bitch and scream about women being too "loose" with their clothing or their morals don't have the figures to do it themselves. I really, really hate that. I have scrawny arms, a beer gut, and a bald head, but you don't see me crying that I can't get model girlfriends, or that I can't do underwear ads. I developed my brain instead.

I wish people would just accept the fact that people are different, and let everyone use what they have.

 

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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Books about atheism

Bad Arguments

You know you have won an arguement when the other people start resorting to circumstantial ad hominems. Keep up the good work.

Archeopteryx's picture

Quote:

Quote:

I've noticed that most of the women who bitch and scream about women being too "loose" with their clothing or their morals don't have the figures to do it themselves.

 

I have a friend that fits that description. She actually owns one of those "I hate pretty people" T-shirts you sometimes find in goth-oriented stores. She bitches about girls in skimpy clothing acting "slutty", but as soon as "her guys" (She's one of those girls who insists she only has guy friends, and insists on referring to them as "my guys" ) start treating her as if she is sexy at all, the story is completely different.

She'd get pissed if anyone called her on it, but if she had the body for it, she'd dress just as loosely, and I'm sure she knows it.

 

But other than being a self-conscious crybaby, she's pretty cool. 

 

A place common to all will be maintained by none. A religion common to all is perhaps not much different.

totus_tuus's picture

Nicely done, Kelly.  Human

Nicely done, Kelly.  Human being reduced to nothing more than bags of chemicals, and life support systems for genitalia.  Wonderful!

"With its enduring appeal to the search for truth, philosophy has the great responsibility of forming thought and culture; and now it must strive resolutely to recover its original vocation." Pope John Paul II

Archeopteryx's picture

totus_tuus wrote: Nicely

totus_tuus wrote:
Nicely done, Kelly. Human being reduced to nothing more than bags of chemicals, and life support systems for genitalia. Wonderful!

 

Er... what?

 

I found nothing in the article that seems to match up at all with that comment...

A place common to all will be maintained by none. A religion common to all is perhaps not much different.

kellym78's picture

That's what I thought, but

That's what I thought, but whatever. Assholes are assholes, and I wish I were male so that the chemical interactions in my brain would cause me to tell he/she to suck my genitalia.

totus_tuus's picture

K...I'll

K...I'll explain...

Quote:
Endless days of forced interaction with people who share some percentage of your genetic makeup and nothing more.

Family members (people) as bags of chemicals.

Quote:
My position on "feminism" is that it entails the belief that a woman can choose what she wants to do--and that should include working in the sex industry. The whole movement was about CHOICE--how ironic that they want to take choices away from other women now.

If women choose to be identified, objectified as nothing more than a life support system for tits and snatch, they are entitled to so degrade themselves.

Geez...you intellectuals...

 

"With its enduring appeal to the search for truth, philosophy has the great responsibility of forming thought and culture; and now it must strive resolutely to recover its original vocation." Pope John Paul II

Archeopteryx's picture

  K... now I'll

 

K... now I'll explain...

Quote:

Quote:
Endless days of forced interaction with people who share some percentage of your genetic makeup and nothing more.

Family members (people) as bags of chemicals.

This wasn't meant to treat people as nothing more than bags of chemicals. It was a stylistic way of saying that she has nothing in common with her family members other than the fact that they are related. I personally thought it was completely obvious.

I think you were just scrutinizing the article for something you could throw rocks at. 

Quote:

Quote:
My position on "feminism" is that it entails the belief that a woman can choose what she wants to do--and that should include working in the sex industry. The whole movement was about CHOICE--how ironic that they want to take choices away from other women now.

If women choose to be identified, objectified as nothing more than a life support system for tits and snatch, they are entitled to so degrade themselves.

You obviously completely missed the point. If a woman makes the choice to be a stripper/lapdancer because she is proud of her sexuality, then between the two of you, YOU are the only one who thinks she is being degraded. She could really give a shit what you have to say about it. If you stop viewing yourself as the moral center of the universe for a minute, you may realize that this means that she is NOT degrading herself.

At best, one could say that people like you are trying to degrade her. She would probably appreciate it if you would knock that shit off.

 

Quote:

Geez...you intellectuals...

 

An attempt at cleverness (?) from the person who just proved (twice!) his terrible reading comprehension.

A place common to all will be maintained by none. A religion common to all is perhaps not much different.

Hambydammit's picture

Has anyone besides me

Has anyone besides me noticed that the vast majority of people who are interested in "liberating" women from "degradation" propose doing so by telling women that they're not smart enough to decide on their own what they want to do?

Has it never occurred to any of you that it's kind of degrading for a woman to have a man tell her how she really feels?

(Hint: Sorry, woman.  You're not smart enough to know how you really feel.  Trust me.  You're being degraded.)

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism

darth_josh's picture

kellym78 wrote: That's what

kellym78 wrote:
That's what I thought, but whatever. Assholes are assholes, and I wish I were male so that the chemical interactions in my brain would cause me to tell he/she to suck my genitalia.

That excuse doesn't work. Adrianne Curry:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lp0umBVWSk

43 seconds in. 

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Eloise's picture

37. His disciples said,

37. His disciples said, "When will you appear to us, and when will we see you?"

Jesus said, "When you strip without being ashamed, and you take your clothes and put them under your feet like little children and trample then, then [you] will see the son of the living one and you will not be afraid."

From the Gospel of Thomas.  Sorry couldn't resist it. Sticking out tongue

 

 Kelly wrote:

Anybody who talks about "Christmas spirit" has obviously never been to a mall during the month of December.

Arrgh yes I am so agreeing with you, something that serves the sole purpose of making perfectly healthy happy individuals suddenly feel and act like the world is crashing down on them, it's evil I tells Ya!

I don't think you need telling, but I'll say it anyway cause I feel it, you're alright Kelly don't let it get you down. Smiling

 

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skepticchick's picture

hi Kelly,   I thought you

hi Kelly,

 

I thought you made quite a few good points.  There's just one statement I had a question about: "Not stereotypical at all--totally accurate. There is no concept of eternal damnation outside of the unfortunate people who have been sucked into christianity."

Is this really true?  Before xtianity we had judiasm, the Hades of the Greeks, and many other "hell type" concepts.  The concept of an "under" or "nether" world has been around for a long time, heck, I think xtianity stole it from paganism, and then islam from xtianity and judiasm. I do know that the jewish hell was not eternal-was the hades one and some of the others not either? Just wondering.

Zombie's picture

Actually, are they really

Actually, are they really unrelated? People tend to read porn on their time off work, which is usally the holidays. Laughing out loud

Morte alla tyrannus et dei

kellym78's picture

skepticchick wrote: hi

skepticchick wrote:

hi Kelly,

 

I thought you made quite a few good points. There's just one statement I had a question about: "Not stereotypical at all--totally accurate. There is no concept of eternal damnation outside of the unfortunate people who have been sucked into christianity."

Is this really true? Before xtianity we had judiasm, the Hades of the Greeks, and many other "hell type" concepts. The concept of an "under" or "nether" world has been around for a long time, heck, I think xtianity stole it from paganism, and then islam from xtianity and judiasm. I do know that the jewish hell was not eternal-was the hades one and some of the others not either? Just wondering.

 I was speaking specifically about the Japanese, but while we're here...the Israelites really had no "hell". It was referred to as "sheol" but it was more of just ending, ceasing to exist, than torture. Otherwise, I agree, there were lots of hells before the christian one.

Sapient's picture

Eloise wrote: 37. His

Eloise wrote:

37. His disciples said, "When will you appear to us, and when will we see you?"

Jesus said, "When you strip without being ashamed, and you take your clothes and put them under your feet like little children and trample then, then [you] will see the son of the living one and you will not be afraid."

From the Gospel of Thomas.  Sorry couldn't resist it. Sticking out tongue

 

 Kelly wrote:

Anybody who talks about "Christmas spirit" has obviously never been to a mall during the month of December.

Arrgh yes I am so agreeing with you, something that serves the sole purpose of making perfectly healthy happy individuals suddenly feel and act like the world is crashing down on them, it's evil I tells Ya!

I don't think you need telling, but I'll say it anyway cause I feel it, you're alright Kelly don't let it get you down. Smiling

 

Eloise, if at all possible could you not agree with Kelly again?  I'm worried about her head, she's likely to bang it hard if you keep making her fall out of her chair like that.  Eye-wink 

- Brian Sapient


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Remarkable

The question of whether or not an activity is degrading to a person or a group does not relate to whether or not it feels degrading to the people engaged in it. Rather, it relates to how that activity effects broad perception of them. Strippers are widely seen as being dishonest, intellectually inferior, and devoid of other marketable assets. This is not surprising. Chasing easy money by exploiting the weaknesses of others is not seen as a redeeming quality in our society, and the willingness to take off your clothes for precisely that purpose would certainly seem to suggest a failure of other methods of obtaining income.

Now, you could argue that stripping shouldn't be degrading to women, but arguing that it does not degrade women (either specifically or generally) is a position founded in abject ignorance.

I understand the desire to show off. It's part of why I sing karaoke, but it's one thing to show off a skill to the public for free and another thing to dishonestly exploit your audience's sexual desires for profit.

To relatives, if genes is all you have in common with them, I would suggest that someone, somewhere, screwed up.

The holidays are a time (arbitrarily, as are many others) set aside to interact with your friends and relatives. Most people cherish this time, and for most adults, it is unforced.

Christmas, particularly, can be difficult for atheists, but I actually quite enjoy it, rampant commercialism and all. The key thing to remember is that axial tilt is the reason for the season.

kellym78's picture

I disagree that such

I disagree that such activity is inherently "degrading". It may be if you care what people think about you, but I don't. They are incapable of "stripping me of my self-esteem or self-worth" as the definition of degrade states. Is it a result of my current inability to obtain more lucrative employment--sure. But, no matter what job I had, I couldn't work as little as I do and live. I couldn't make my own schedule which is necessary for me. There are multiple reasons why this job works for me right now.

I am speaking of myself and myself only. I have already stated that if one feels degraded by the job, then it isn't for her. I don't think that you could possibly call me ignorant in reference to a job that I have done, and I presume you haven't. 

I see nothing dishonest in taking money from a willing clientele.

I don't care for my relatives because I never had a close relationship with them and I have no desire to. Most of them are ignorant rednecks with whom I have nothing in common.

I can interact with my friends and whomever else I choose whenever I choose--I don't have to wait for christmyass to do it.

 

Hambydammit's picture

It's easy to confuse this

It's easy to confuse this issue because everybody feels so strongly about it. Let's look at it objectively, ok?

de·grade /dɪˈgreɪd or, for 3, diˈgreɪd/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[di-greyd or, for 3, dee-greyd] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation verb, -grad·ed, -grad·ing. –verb (used with object)

1.to lower in dignity or estimation; bring into contempt: He felt they were degrading him by making him report to the supervisor.
2.to lower in character or quality; debase.
3.to reduce (someone) to a lower rank, degree, etc.; deprive of office, rank, status, or title, esp. as a punishment: degraded from director to assistant director.
4.to reduce in amount, strength, intensity, etc.
5.Physical Geography. to wear down by erosion, as hills. Compare aggrade.
6.Chemistry. to break down (a compound, esp. an organic hydrocarbon).

 

4,5, and 6 don't apply to women stripping. 1, 2, and 3, all have something in common -- they all mean lowering something that is dependent on other people. Rank, character, etc... all require other people. I can't very well be virtuous if I'm on an island by myself. There's nobody to commit a crime against.

Character, morality, etc, are not set in stone. (Unless you're a theist.) They vary depending on the situation, the culture, the people involved, etc.

In other words, the most you can say about stripping is this:

"Stripping degrades those women who believe stripping degrades women, and stripping degrades women in the eyes of those who believe stripping degrades women."

Or, put another way:

"Stripping does not degrade those women who believe stripping does not degrade women, and stripping does not degrade women in the eyes of those who do not believe that stripping degrades women."

It's going around your ass to get to your elbow, but the fact is, degradation is in the eye of the beholder and the participant. You don't get to tell people what they "really" feel, just because you really feel that way.

 Now, you might object that belief does not necessarily mean truth, and sometimes there are external realities.  However, you're going to run into the same thing again.  You're just putting off the inevitable.

It's true that stripping degrades one's chance of, say, running for president.  Your individual belief about your chances doesn't alter the public's perception of them, so you can objectively say that stripping degrades women.

Only you can't.  Some women don't believe being president is a good thing.  Some men don't believe it.  I, for one, would trust a stripper over a president any day.

You see, anything you can come up with... drug use, prostitution, employment ceiling, marriage desirability... anything... there are those who don't see those things as necessarily good or bad.  In the end, it's always going to come down to what someone believes about something that isn't objectively good or bad outside of those beliefs.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism

   I Love girls ! cool

   I Love girls ! cool Eloise

.... Jesus said, "When you strip without being ashamed, .... "

 and Kelly , check out this girl, she seems  cool,  

http://www.kellieeverts.com/

she strips for god ! .... no, not god of abe .... ?

giggles on ya ....

Hambydammit, your

Hambydammit, your definitions are good, but your analysis is somewhat flawed.

 

 It's not about what someone believes. More particularly, it's not about what the stripper, her friends, or the small segment of society that find nothing wrong with stripping believe.

 

 It's about what society, as taken from the consensus of the masses, believes. And the masses see stripping as degrading in both the specific and the general to women.

 

You can argue that society shouldn't feel this way. You can agitate for a change in this perception, but you cannot argue that stripping is not degrading to women in the context of american, north american, or even global society.

 

I didn't say anything about inherency

If you think that's the definition of "degrade," your dictionary needs help. Degradation isn't something you feel. It's something that happens to you, and it's all about the esteem of others. You may not care about degrading yourself or your gender in the eyes of others, but you cannot honestly argue that it's not happening.

In most business interactions, there is a clear exchange of value for value. Money is provided in exchange for some good or service. These interactions are seen as dishonest if the value on one side greatly exceeds the value on the other.

In the business interaction of stripping particularly, the only thing of particular value being exchanged is the money. Visible human flesh, even attractive, even in motion, is commonplace and cheap.

This is why the business is seen as dishonest. You're raking in the dough doing nothing special with nothing special. There's got to be a con in that somewhere.

For most people, relation forms the basis of common experience, which most people enjoy. It's fine if you have a problem with your relatives and vice-versa, but my point still stands. Someone, somewhere, screwed up.

It's nice that you get to see the folks you choose to interact with whenever you like. Most people have jobs and far-flung relations that make this difficult. Christmas is a day set aside by law and custom for such interactions, and this is a thing of value in and of itself, setting aside how you might feel about invisible sky-daddies and fairy-tale creatures that provide annual incentives for acceptable juvenile behavior.

And the solstice is cool enough by itself, even without all that.

Archeopteryx's picture

JediBear wrote: If you

JediBear wrote:
If you think that's the definition of "degrade," your dictionary needs help. Degradation isn't something you feel. It's something that happens to you, and it's all about the esteem of others.

Dictionaries do not define words based on any inherent meaning. They define words based on how they are commonly used by the majority. It sounds to me like YOU have a definition problem, not vice-versa. 

 

Quote:

You may not care about degrading yourself or your gender in the eyes of others, but you cannot honestly argue that it's not happening.

That's only true if we accept your definition of degredation (the one where you claim the common usage isn't the real meaning). I think young-earth Christians are degrading themselves, but they definitely wouldn't agree. 

 

Quote:

In most business interactions, there is a clear exchange of value for value. Money is provided in exchange for some good or service. These interactions are seen as dishonest if the value on one side greatly exceeds the value on the other.

Unless the item you're buying is on sale and has been marked down! =D 

Quote:
In the business interaction of stripping particularly, the only thing of particular value being exchanged is the money.

There are two kinds of economic exchanges.

1) Trading currency for goods.

2) Trading currency for services.

Stripping is a service. If you don't find it to be a valuable service, then you simply shouldn't invest in it, just like a person who didn't own a car would not pay for a car wash. 

 

Quote:

Visible human flesh, even attractive, even in motion, is commonplace and cheap. This is why the business is seen as dishonest.

 Soap and water are common place and cheap. Are carwashes dishonest?

Quote:
 

You're raking in the dough doing nothing special with nothing special.

Actually, they're presenting the flesh and the sexiness without the man having to do any work for it, or even have any kind of charisma. A man with no skills whatsoever can go into a strip club and still feel like pimp of the year... if he's willing to pay for it. Some gents are willing, while others are not. 

Quote:
 

There's got to be a con in that somewhere.

So you're only speculating after all.

A place common to all will be maintained by none. A religion common to all is perhaps not much different.

Archeopteryx's picture

Archeopteryx


Quote:

For most people, relation forms the basis of common experience, which most people enjoy. It's fine if you have a problem with your relatives and vice-versa, but my point still stands. Someone, somewhere, screwed up.

 

It makes sense that a person who feels like they get to tell other people when they are being degraded would feel like they get to tell someone that they have family problems. That's so nosy, it's almost theistic. =P

 

I don't have anything in common with my family either, and for that reason I really can't stand getting together with the family for the holidays. But that doesn't mean I don't love my family. I get along with them just fine. They're nice people, and I like to think I'm a generally nice person. But we have absolutely nothing in common. If I could skip the family get-together at Christmas, I probably would. I'd rather just stand around in some relative's kitchen eating cookies and talking about how much I wish dad would shut the fuck up about Dr. Phil than sit around a tree with them because "that's what you do on Christmas".

I can't speak for Kelly because I don't know what her family thing is like, and I think its kind of ballsy for you to suggest you know what's "wrong with her" (obviously if she's a stripper, her dad must have ignored her or something, right?).

Plenty of people have nothing in common with their families. That's why it's such a common joke in holiday comedies.

 

Quote:

It's nice that you get to see the folks you choose to interact with whenever you like. Most people have jobs and far-flung relations that make this difficult. Christmas is a day set aside by law and custom for such interactions, and this is a thing of value in and of itself, setting aside how you might feel about invisible sky-daddies and fairy-tale creatures that provide annual incentives for acceptable juvenile behavior.

Just because a holiday is viewed as a time set aside for family, and just because it's valuable to people with closer relationships with their families who don't get to see their family often, doesn't mean that Kelly is breaking any kind of rule by not utilizing the holiday in that way.

And if there IS going to be a designated day for gathering together with your family, I think the pretenses are very important. If there was some kind of "family day" where the point was simply to see your family, that would be great. But when you have a religious family, it's not just about the family. It's about togetherness with your family, and it's about the story of Jesus.

My mom and dad make one of their kids read the Christmas story out of the bible every year. Two of their kids now refuse (me being one of them), and only 1 out of their 5 children is still religious at all, but they still do it. They also insist that we pray for meals at all family gatherings, which is incredibly annoying. I'm sure they would be pissed as hell if I put on my The God Who Wasn't There DVD and just started casually watching it while the family was romping around.

I guess what I'm saying is, I know that I'm not there because Jesus was born in a manger or some shit, but mom and dad love it that I'm there for that very reason, which is, frankly, kind of annoying.

Quote:
 

And the solstice is cool enough by itself, even without all that.

I like to wish people a Merry Winter Solstice.

 

Or if some "clever" xian wishes me a "Happy Jesus's Birthday", I like to wish them a "Happy Amaterasu's Emergence From A Cave!"

A place common to all will be maintained by none. A religion common to all is perhaps not much different.

kellym78's picture

JediBear wrote: In most

JediBear wrote:
In most business interactions, there is a clear exchange of value for value. Money is provided in exchange for some good or service. These interactions are seen as dishonest if the value on one side greatly exceeds the value on the other. In the business interaction of stripping particularly, the only thing of particular value being exchanged is the money. Visible human flesh, even attractive, even in motion, is commonplace and cheap. This is why the business is seen as dishonest. You're raking in the dough doing nothing special with nothing special. There's got to be a con in that somewhere.

That may be the most offensive and ignorant comment I've seen for at least...alright, 2 days, but anyway...I bust my ass at work performing. I assume that actors and actresses are also involved in some con to make all the money that they do for nothing particularly special. What an asshole. You try dancing around all night long in 7 inch heels and spinning around poles and see how quickly you tire out--if you don't fall flat on your face first. As far as doing nothing special with nothing special--last time I checked, the average woman's body looks nothing like mine, not even mentioning the fact that I have 3 children. So, with that said, kindly fuck off.

 

Hambydammit's picture

Well, Jedi, I'd refute you

Well, Jedi, I'd refute you some more, but arc and kelly have said most of what I would say, anyway.   If you'd like me to go linguistic on your ass, I will, but frankly, I think your own foot is far enough up it that you don't need any more assistance.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism

Sapient's picture

Whenever a questionable cat

Whenever a questionable cat joins our site, our crack staff researches said person so we know what we're dealing with.  Early research on jedibear turns up some interesting quotes.

Apparently his attitude has gotten him banned from some geek board...

Quote:
Monday, September 24, 2007

 Banned Again
So just in case anyone from classicbattletech.com is wondering why I haven't been around for the last few days, here it is: I was banned. I called PerkinsC delusional because he is, and because I was (and am) under a lot of stress and I briefly forgot the difference between "that's stupid" (a critical review) and "you're stupid" (a personal attack.) One is against the rules, the other isn't. I should have said "That's delusional." and skipped the natural ", you lunatic."

It seems that Jedibear has a history of being banned for this sort of activity.  Jedibear if you want to hang around I suggest you read our own batch of rules

Is it possible jedibear has an axe to grind with a girl he gave a c-note too at the club and didn't go home with him, merely danced on his lap?  Of course, this lap dance from a gorgeous woman is something that jedibear is capable of attaining for free whenever he wants, and he views her lack of willingness to go home with him as a con.  I'm just starting to theorize.  A completely clueless geek could easily walk in a strip club with some sort of false notion that he's actually got a chance with any of the girls in there.  That's the whole point.  It's a fantasy world where men can attain something they are not normally able to attain.  That's not a con, it's one of the oldest, legit, and important businesses in the history of mankind.  The line gets blurred when people falsely assume they can expect anything other than the ride of their life that most likely they'd never get in the real world.  If you don't think that's a legit business arrangement, I'm not sure what would constitute a legit business arrangement. 

Spending money on some battletech EVE geekazoid game that consumes your life could be viewed as a con as well.  Seriously, spend some time doing something important, not bitching about everything in between your fake battles on a video game that consumes your life.

 

When you have a post that starts out "Worst Day Ever" and it starts out by saying...

Quote:
Sunday, November 04, 2007

 Worst Day Ever
Yesterday is now officially my new Worst Day Ever In EVE. I got podkilled twice and lost an Apocalypse (Battleship), a Mammoth (Cargo Ship,) and other sundry assets (cargo and fittings) totalling in the neighborhood of 200 million ISK. At that point I decided to call it a day...

Sounds like a con to me.  You've allowed yourself to get consumed by a game!   

Ok... so I'm joking a little.  I couldn't ever conceive of a world where I would title a post "worst day ever" and then talk about my performance in a video game.  My worst day ever post would have something more to do with the night I received my most serious death threat due to trying to end the biggest conspiracy on Earth (religion) and had to get the FBI involved.  I recognize you weren't saying this was the worst day of your life, but simply addressing the issue in the way you did puts you and "us" in entirely different worlds.  Worlds so different from each other, that it might become impossible to communicate effectively with each other.

 FWIW: Based on your resume you'd have been the perfect candidate for a developer position here.

Dislcaimers:

1. If you are a geek consumed by a computer game in your mid 20's and you like us, then none of the above pertains to you.

2. Yes, I know I didn't actually address anything he was saying.

- Brian Sapient


Buy popular atheist books and support the Rational Response Squad at the same time on Amazon.

Eloise's picture

JediBear wrote:

JediBear wrote:
In most business interactions, there is a clear exchange of value for value. Money is provided in exchange for some good or service. These interactions are seen as dishonest if the value on one side greatly exceeds the value on the other. In the business interaction of stripping particularly, the only thing of particular value being exchanged is the money. Visible human flesh, even attractive, even in motion, is commonplace and cheap. This is why the business is seen as dishonest. You're raking in the dough doing nothing special with nothing special. There's got to be a con in that somewhere.

The con, the nothing special, commonplace, cheap thing in this equation is money. The only degradation or dishonesty I see in your argument is the notion that money subsumes the worth of anything about Kelly.

ps: sorry if this is shockingly agreeable, Kelly, please watch your head.

Theist badge qualifier : Gnostic/Philosophical Panentheist

www.mathematicianspictures.com

Orangustang's picture

I'm reading The Gospel of

I'm reading The Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and now I have a sneaking suspicion, Kelly, that you were produced in the stripper factory in FSM Heaven. I think that makes you an angel or something. 

The great tragedy of Science - the slaying of a beautiful hypothesis by an ugly fact.
- Thomas H. Huxley

When I do good, I feel good; when I do bad, I feel bad, and that is my religion.
- Abraham Lincoln

RaspK's picture

kellym78

kellym78 wrote:

[snip] 

Excellent argumentation, and I applaud you for your courage and continued effort. Smiling

HeyZeusCreaseToe's picture

Christophiliac is Classic! I

Christophiliac is Classic! I like Christianist personally, but may start using them interchangeably.

There can definitely be a healthy psychological component when interacting with smart women in a club, having a nice convo, and fulfilling a necessary part of your humanity to connect with someone you find attractive. Although I would have to say the best part is having beautiful breasts bounce in front of you for a small fee. I see nothing wrong with it as long as you both understand the situation is a business transaction that does not necessitate the woman subjugating herself completely to the will of the man just because he has money.

 

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” Yoda

HisWillness's picture

 Y'know, I've never been to

 Y'know, I've never been to a strip club. I've never had friends who wanted to go all that badly, since they're all family-types. Not to detract from whatever joy you get from the job, Kelly, but a dancing naked girl isn't enough to make me pay $10 for a beer.

I applaud any woman willing to take the money of suckers who are paying to watch them be naked. Well done, I say. (This from a currency speculator - taking a sucker's money is how I live.) The degraded person there isn't the woman.

It's always about the power dynamic anyway. The real victory of feminism is precisely your ability to do that job and not feel trapped by it. If you did feel trapped, then it certainly would be degrading, but since that's not the case, how is it even a problem?

Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence

EXC's picture

HisWillness wrote: Y'know,

HisWillness wrote:

 Y'know, I've never been to a strip club. I've never had friends who wanted to go all that badly, since they're all family-types. Not to detract from whatever joy you get from the job, Kelly, but a dancing naked girl isn't enough to make me pay $10 for a beer.

I applaud any woman willing to take the money of suckers who are paying to watch them be naked. Well done, I say. (This from a currency speculator - taking a sucker's money is how I live.) The degraded person there isn't the woman.

It's always about the power dynamic anyway. The real victory of feminism is precisely your ability to do that job and not feel trapped by it. If you did feel trapped, then it certainly would be degrading, but since that's not the case, how is it even a problem?

Ya, going to a strip club is  like going to a restaurant where you they just wave the food in front of your face but don't let you eat it.

Porn is like watching a video of other people eating but you just have to imagine you're eating.

But to each his own. I actually think porn, stipping, prostituion should be legal. What I think is terrible is using sex to sell shitty products in public formats. Like the Coors Twins on the billboards, I don't get to have sex with them if I drink Rocky Mountain Goat Piss. Seems like this is bait and switch advertising, it should be banned in public.

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” Seneca