The Pledge and the Star Spangled Banner

digitalbeachbum's picture

I did not put my hand over my heart during the pledge of allegiance this past celebration. I did not put my hand over my heart during the singing of the Star Spangled Banner. For this I was given glaring stares and reprimanded by others.

My reply was, "I've already taken the pledge several thousand times before and during my life in the military. I do not need to continue to randomly take the pledge over and over and over again. I've already proved that I'm an American and I'm a patriot (even though often cynical to the politics involved)."

"I do not and I am not required to put my hand over my heart while singing the Star Spangled Banner. It is optional and it is suggested that you do so and also face the flag or the music if no flag is present. If I were in the military you bet I would do so, especially if I were in uniform. But since I am neither in the military nor am I in uniform I choose not to do so."

Now I know I'm being picky here. It is purely an issue with the words used in the 36 US Code 301 which states specifically the word 'should' ranther than say 'required' or 'must'.

I present the following article as support for my view.

http://blog.oxforddictionaries.com/2014/03/must-should-ought/

I'm not one to start fights. I don't want to fight others. I'm no less an American for not saying the pledge at every gathering of people who think that actually saying the pledge at the meetings is patriotic. The Pledge of Allegiance is an act which can be a lie. It doesn't have any substance. It is words. It actually means nothing. A terrorist could lie and take the pledge and the next day be bombing innocent people.

The same goes for the Star Spangled Banner. I don't care much for singing and in public I usually mumble the words. When I was in the USMC I used to scream the words for motivation because Parris Island could be very depressing for a young man of 19 years. Now I don't need to scream and jump and raise my hands. It doesn't mean I am against democracy. It doesn't mean I'm not an American.

There are exceptions.

I believe in a parade, if you are standing there and the flag passes by in review, then you should salute if you wish (military or prior) or put your hand over your heart.

I believe in a ceremony, where you are being sworn in for government or for military, lawn enforcement, civial service, etc. You should put your hand over your heart or salute as needed.

In closing I believe both acts are just more dogma we feed our egos with and the next time you see some one doing or not doing said acts which one of those people are being the honest person and who is lying?

 

Vastet's picture

I always saw the whole thing

I always saw the whole thing as a very primitive tribal throwback. I do tend to sing Oh Canada, more because I enjoy the tune than anything else, but I never bought into the religious-like adherence to rituals and gestures.

Any nation that is particularly obsessed with such things has some very real problems that are being ignored in a very 1984esque manner. It's basically no different than the mandatory hate hour or whatever it was called in the book. Meant to distract everyone from real problems by stirring up patriotic fervour.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.

iwbiek's picture

a few years ago here in

a few years ago here in slovakia, a particularly nasty fucking nationalist party was in the coalition government and pushed throuh legislation that every schoolroom had to diplay these bullshit placards showing the slovak flag, the words to the slovak national anthem, and the preamble of the slovak constitution. of course, each school was responsible for furnishing those things out of their own budgets. i hate those fucking things and frequently say so, both in front of students and administrators. of course, they all agree with me, but shrug fatalistically. as for the nazi piece of shit who authored that law, his justification was how impressed he was with the patriotism of students while on a visit to the US (snicker).


you can’t fucking legislate patriotism. slovaks are notoriously ambivalent about their country because of the rampant (but slowly improving) corruption and the history of foreign domination. this cunt thinks he can force students to be proud with an ugly fucking billboard taking up valuable wall space in classrooms. worse yet, when a supposedly more liberal, enlightened government came to power a couple years later, many people called for the repeal of this legislation, and the new government flat out refused to consider it. at least slovakia doesn't have a pledge of allegiance...yet...

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson

Brian37's picture

Vastet wrote:I always saw

Vastet wrote:
I always saw the whole thing as a very primitive tribal throwback. I do tend to sing Oh Canada, more because I enjoy the tune than anything else, but I never bought into the religious-like adherence to rituals and gestures. Any nation that is particularly obsessed with such things has some very real problems that are being ignored in a very 1984esque manner. It's basically no different than the mandatory hate hour or whatever it was called in the book. Meant to distract everyone from real problems by stirring up patriotic fervour.

The pledge and Star Spangled Banner are not laws like a country's constitution and are strictly voluntary. I agree it is ok to like it from a "this sounds nice I like the tune" or "My country has some good things in it". But condemning somebody for not partaking in them is out of 1984. I hate it when our politicians have upon occasion, been asked why they don't wear an American flag pin. Really? 

Yes when you sell dogmatic patriotism it becomes on par with, oppressive theocracies. 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37

digitalbeachbum's picture

Vastet wrote:I always saw

Vastet wrote:
I always saw the whole thing as a very primitive tribal throwback. I do tend to sing Oh Canada, more because I enjoy the tune than anything else, but I never bought into the religious-like adherence to rituals and gestures. Any nation that is particularly obsessed with such things has some very real problems that are being ignored in a very 1984esque manner. It's basically no different than the mandatory hate hour or whatever it was called in the book. Meant to distract everyone from real problems by stir ring up patriotic fervour.

"Oh Canada" is a good tune. If I remember correctly it was originally written in French.

I remember doing the pledge every morning at catholic school... I look back on it now and makes me think of nazi kids in the youth movement.

digitalbeachbum's picture

iwbiek wrote: you

iwbiek wrote:

you can’t fucking legislate patriotism 

Tell that to the Republicans

digitalbeachbum's picture

Brian37 wrote: The pledge

Brian37 wrote:

The pledge and Star Spangled Banner are not laws like a country's constitution and are strictly voluntary. I agree it is ok to like it from a "this sounds nice I like the tune" or "My country has some good things in it". But condemning somebody for not partaking in them is out of 1984. I hate it when our politicians have upon occasion, been asked why they don't wear an American flag pin. Really? 

The United States Code is a consolidation and codification by subject matter of the general and permanent laws of the United States

http://uscode.house.gov/

Brian37's picture

iwbiek wrote:a few years ago

iwbiek wrote:
a few years ago here in slovakia, a particularly nasty fucking nationalist party was in the coalition government and pushed throuh legislation that every schoolroom had to diplay these bullshit placards showing the slovak flag, the words to the slovak national anthem, and the preamble of the slovak constitution. of course, each school was responsible for furnishing those things out of their own budgets. i hate those fucking things and frequently say so, both in front of students and administrators. of course, they all agree with me, but shrug fatalistically. as for the nazi piece of shit who authored that law, his justification was how impressed he was with the patriotism of students while on a visit to the US (snicker).
you can’t fucking legislate patriotism. slovaks are notoriously ambivalent about their country because of the rampant (but slowly improving) corruption and the history of foreign domination. this cunt thinks he can force students to be proud with an ugly fucking billboard taking up valuable wall space in classrooms. worse yet, when a supposedly more liberal, enlightened government came to power a couple years later, many people called for the repeal of this legislation, and the new government flat out refused to consider it. at least slovakia doesn't have a pledge of allegiance...yet...

Iwbiek wrote:
you can't fucking legislate patriotism.

Don't look now but you are kissing your sister. I AGREE! Make love to me you sexy earlobe lover! Fat statues turn me on.

You stupidly think that complexity is the key to understanding humanity. I wont argue that it is not. IN CONTEXT! I will argue the age of the planet and our finite nature, and the fact that you'd love that I would have less breath's and a shorter time on earth as EVIDENCE, that religion is poison, and "patriotism" is simply a different word for religion.

If we were patriotic to our own camps of thought, and upon our first dissent here, which did happen, both of us would be entitled to do harm to the other by force of law. Patriotism is relegated to nationalism, but it is still the same concept of following and loyalty religion has. You have not killed me and I have not killed you, and we are still here. 

Do yourslelf a huge favor, consider the prospect of the word "patriotism" and "religion" as both the idea of group think.

I am not holding my breath that we will become friends. I am quite sure we can, despite the fact we hate each other, live without the desire beyond verbally bitch slapping each other.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37

iwbiek's picture

don't be stupid. i don't

don't be stupid. i don't hate you.

Brian37's picture

iwbiek wrote:don't be

iwbiek wrote:
don't be stupid. i don't hate you.

Ok, you have a funny way of showing it.

Ok, can I put that in my sig? 

Look dude, we will never be roommates but all this started when you suggested I talked to Bob and he didn't give you the answer you wanted. 

I am NOT asking the forced end of Buddhism anymore than Christianity or Islam or Hinduism. I am suggesting, that while they are all complex, which they are, what has not changed in our species history is that we are the same species. I would suggest is that humans get lost in that complexity which ends up distracting humans that we are the same species.

I know we need secular historians to wade through the soap opras  and fairy tales humans create. But the ride still ends, rich or poor, regardless of boarders or status. 

I do hate you, not your intent, not your evolutionary empathy. And don't tell me you want to hang out with me tomorrow because that would be a lie. I don't hate your intent. Even from the start of our beef, I knew it was comming from a place of good intent. I simply got pissed that you thought your title meant shit to me. 

The "hate" is merely personality. I love the freedom we have here. I love that you can bitch me out and I can bitch you out and nobody dies. 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37

Brian37's picture

 The problem when you

 The problem when you pulled the "teacher" card was the same authoritarin bagage my well intended parents had. Both my mom and dad were sold the script that boys don't cry and do what you are told and sink or swim. Before we met, I had long diched scripts and who does what. My mom did a nobel thing, and I don't falt her for that, but I do blame humanity for script thinking. My mom is still alive, and she has completely changed. She still loves me as I do her , and we still squabble over mundane personality differences. But she is not the authoritarian she was when I grew up. 

 

So when you said you were a teacher, it was to me like Newton shouting "HEY ASSHOLE, I GOT PYSICS RIGHT, JUST IGNORE MY FETISH FOR ACHEMY"  (Buddhism in your case)

 

I am sure you are NOT WRONG about everything. I am sure that your title is not an entitlement. 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37

iwbiek's picture

"teacher" is not a title.

"teacher" is not a title. teacher is a job. i never once used the fact that i am a teacher to leverage my opinion, which anyone else observing our conversations over the years would know. i merely mentioned i'm a teacher once or twice and you ran with it, like you run with everything irrelevant. i did mention i'm pursuing a phd in religious studies as shorthand for "i know what i'm talking about in this area better than you do." by the way, asshole, a title does not equal entitlement. i didn't inherit my humble academic credentials. i worked damn hard for every degree i have, and i'm working harder than i've ever worked for this one. so pardon me if i think my opinion on religions deserves a little more respect than the average person's. just as dawkins is more qualified to talk about evolutionary biology than i am, and he got there through hard work, i'm more qualified to talk about religions, especially indian religions, than you. or dawkins, for that matter.


i have no "buddhism fetish." you're the one who keeps bringing buddhism into things. i haven't brought it up on my own initiative in years. same thing with being a teacher. the way you talk, it's like i'm throwing it in everybody's face in every thread, but i actually haven't mentioned it myself in god knows how long. these are all just your usual bullshit excuses to keep your hysteria going. if you would finally drop these topics, it's a good chance nobody on this site would ever hear "teacher" or "buddhism" from me ever again. nobody has, except where you keep bringing it up.


i'm not trying to bury any hatchet with you, brian, because there is no hatchet as far as i'm concerned. i don't hate you because i don't have it in my nature to hate text on a screen, which is all you are to me.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson

Brian37's picture

 Right, teacher is a "job"

 Right, teacher is a "job" but you treated it like a title, not me. Neurosurgeon is also a job, but Ben Carson's denial of evolution doesn't make him right because he is a neurosurgeon. 

No "hysteria". "Hysteria" is what you are doing. You wanted special treatment because you find some pretty things in Buddhism, which wasn't even my argument, then you hid beind your job as a dodge to my argument.

 

I am sorry it bothers you that I don't give any special treatment to any human invented club or holy book. Sagan's Pale Blue dot speech should explain my position. The entire Cosmos series with Neil Tyson, will also add to that. The God Delusion also. Victor Stinger's books which I have mentioned before will also do that.

Arguing that ANY human invented club is requred is absurd. The fact humans think they need it only means they think they need it. I only agree that we as a species have to deal with reality. 99% of all life is now extinct, and in the future all life including humans will go extinct. The fact religion exists now only proves humans have vivid imaginations.

Religion exists as a result of gap filling, a placebo, a false perception. For the same reason a dog will bark at it's reflection in the mirror thinking it is another dog. Not appealing to those who are in religion, no. Humans don't like being told maybe they got it wrong. That is also the unfortunate reality we live in. So the only human thing humans can do is allow the claims to be made, but also allow for those claims to be challenged.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37

Vastet's picture

And yet more projections,

And yet more projections, red herrings, strawmen, and lies by Brian. It's really funny how he insists iwbiek lorded his profession over everyone despite the fact that never happened.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.

Beyond Saving's picture

Vastet wrote:And yet more

Vastet wrote:
And yet more projections, red herrings, strawmen, and lies by Brian. It's really funny how he insists iwbiek lorded his profession over everyone despite the fact that never happened.

Yeah, I think I remember iwbiek bringing it up once or twice and it was relevant to the topic. Kind of like me mentioning my business after being here for about five years in a thread with a person embarking on opening retail and asking for advice. Ever since Brian mentions it every thread as if I've ever said, "My argument is right because I have $x." Though apparently Nick Hanauer is right just because he is richish.

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X

digitalbeachbum's picture

Brian37 wrote: Sagan's Pale

Brian37 wrote:

Sagan's Pale Blue dot speech should explain my position. The entire Cosmos series with Neil Tyson, will also add to that. The God Delusion also. Victor Stinger's books which I have mentioned before will also do that.

I gotta derail your derail. Stop hijacking my blog for your own personal arguments that have nothing to do with my original post. Take it some where else.

And no need to reply, but what the fuck is that type of evidence for an argument? 

"Bongo's Funny Red Dog and Episode 5, 10, 21, 47 and 92 of the Addams Family show will explain my position." WTF. How much more obscure can you possibly be?

 

Vastet's picture

digitalbeachbum

digitalbeachbum wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

Sagan's Pale Blue dot speech should explain my position. The entire Cosmos series with Neil Tyson, will also add to that. The God Delusion also. Victor Stinger's books which I have mentioned before will also do that.

I gotta derail your derail. Stop hijacking my blog for your own personal arguments that have nothing to do with my original post. Take it some where else.

And no need to reply, but what the fuck is that type of evidence for an argument? 

"Bongo's Funny Red Dog and Episode 5, 10, 21, 47 and 92 of the Addams Family show will explain my position." WTF. How much more obscure can you possibly be?

 

*Spits coffee everywhere*

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.