Free will doesn't exist

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Free will doesn't exist

(Apologies if this has already been done)

Free will  is a integral part of the christian faith. Christians often cite it to demonstrate the great love of their god. "God could have made you love him, but he doesn't want mindless robots,so you have free will.'' or "It hurts god when you don't serve hime,but he gave you free will because he loves you." Now that is all well and fine. Such god might deserve some respect right?  The problem is, the christian god doesn't actually give free will. An example of free will would be:

"If you serve me,thats good.If you don't,that's ok too."

But what we get is:

"If you serve me,thats good.If you don't, you'll suffer eternally."

Now, how is that in any way free will? Where is the choice? "Love me or I'll punish you eternally."  The  christian god would be no better than King Nebuchadrezzar when he demanded everyone bow to the statue of him or be thrown into the fiery furnace.

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

dudeofthemoment wrote:
This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.

Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.


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Is rape not rape if the

Is rape not rape if the rapist points a gun at you and politely asks you to undress?


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On the non existence of free

On the non existence of free will :

1)ask a christian if he be lives in free will.
2)ask him if he be lives in god.
3)ask him to become a atheist for no apparent reason
4)if christian didn't abandon his faith remained him that he has no free will if he is following patterns of behavior and training (Hes a god robot ZOMG !!!1One).

I get amused by the irrational idea of free will or Any thing so absurd if a human follows some logic (even a christian) he has no free will since he cant ch use differently and YES bound by reason is included in this restriction.

The only free will would be pure randomness Laughing out loud


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fluffz wrote:Is rape not

fluffz wrote:

Is rape not rape if the rapist points a gun at you and politely asks you to undress?

Only if he's very charming about it. I could see, for example, Hugh Grant getting away with something like that.

In any case, I'm wont to sort of disagree with the premise of this topic. Severely negative consequences don't negate the ability to choose between two different things unless you presuppose determinism, in which case the consequences issue is irrelevant (because a choice isn't really being made). So I agree with you that free will does not exist, but I do not agree with your argument. If that makes any sense.


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 In any case, I'm wont to


 

In any case, I'm wont to sort of disagree with the premise of this topic. Severely negative consequences don't negate the ability to choose between two different things unless you presuppose determinism, in which case the consequences issue is irrelevant (because a choice isn't really being made). So I agree with you that free will does not exist, but I do not agree with your argument. If that makes any sense.

I understand what your saying,as I thought of this myself. However, I see it has while there is a choice to be made, the consequences are so dire nobody would make willingly make that choice(if it was proven you'd go to hell). Hence it's not really a choice.It made sense to me at least.

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

dudeofthemoment wrote:
This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.

Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.


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Freewill in this context is

Freewill in this context is irrational in the lens of the bible. I used to think that the "free" part was akin to no consequence, however I have changed my view on what it means. In the bible freewill means that you are given a choice just as you have with modern law. You are free to steal, but you have to pay some consequence if you are caught. However, the punishment for stealing is jail time.

This type of punishment serves several purposes. First, it protects society by putting a criminal somewhere they can be out of the general population. Second, there is some loss of freedom (punishment) on a more personal level which may act as deterrent for future crimes and Finally, the chance of rehabilitation. Sending someone to hell as punishment is a ridiculous concept when compared to the only paradigm we have in society of the prison system. There is no rehabilitation and what society is protected by putting sinners in hell? If god existed, I would think that it could come up with a better system of freewill than what the bible offers. I know many will say that we aren't as wise as god so of course our systems are flawed and his are perfect, whatever that means. We are offered two choices, blind acceptance that god's ways are perfect or we can question them with our own flawed human minds. 

BTW, I like your analogy of Nebuchanezzar and think it is so true. Your arguement just re-enforces the cohersion tactic of the bible god.

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Loc wrote:(Apologies if this

Loc wrote:

(Apologies if this has already been done)

Free will  is a integral part of the christian faith. Christians often cite it to demonstrate the great love of their god. "God could have made you love him, but he doesn't want mindless robots,so you have free will.'' or "It hurts god when you don't serve hime,but he gave you free will because he loves you." Now that is all well and fine. Such god might deserve some respect right?  The problem is, the christian god doesn't actually give free will. An example of free will would be:

"If you serve me,thats good.If you don't,that's ok too."

But what we get is:

"If you serve me,thats good.If you don't, you'll suffer eternally."

Now, how is that in any way free will? Where is the choice? "Love me or I'll punish you eternally."  The  christian god would be no better than King Nebuchadrezzar when he demanded everyone bow to the statue of him or be thrown into the fiery furnace.

 

The incompatibility of christianity and free will has always been proposed to be differently.

 

God is all knowing- this means he knows what you will do before you do it. If he KNOW'S, you have no choice but to act in the way that he knows you will.


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Free Will

It may be hard to believe; yet, despite how the protestant churches claim today, the reformation leaders DID NOT BELIEVE IN FREE WILL. Thus, Baptists, Lutherans, Presbyterians, and others have their roots in leaders who did not even hold this belief.

 

Yet, don't take my word for it. Read the works of John Calvin, Martin Luther, and others. I would suggest "Bondage of the Will" by Martin Luther.

 

The book of Romans claims that man's will is not free to choose God Romans 3:10-13. Therefore, histroically, the protestant faith, which claims to attempt to return to the teaching of the New Testament, never, ever claimed to believe in the notion of free will that is in so many churches today. I am just saying, be careful with this critique, there are many, many churches today who do not believe in free will. Here is one main one.

 

www.desiringgod.org

 

I am not telling you to embrace these beliefs; yet, I just did not want you to be ignorant of the fact that many Christians reject the notion of free will.


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Loc wrote:I understand what

Loc wrote:
I understand what your saying,as I thought of this myself. However, I see it has while there is a choice to be made, the consequences are so dire nobody would make willingly make that choice(if it was proven you'd go to hell). Hence it's not really a choice.It made sense to me at least.

I don't think so. I've met more than a few people who have said that they would rather go to hell than bow down to a tyrannical god. In fact, I would imagine that more than a few people on this very website would agree with that sentiment.

Sort of like those three guys who refused to bow down to Nebuchadnezzar's statue. It's kind of ironic that you picked that example as an analogy of the lack of free will. Of course, the three guys were saved from the horrible fate that was supposed to await them, but that doesn't really matter because they didn't know they would be saved before hand.


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LosingStreak06 wrote:Loc

LosingStreak06 wrote:

Loc wrote:
I understand what your saying,as I thought of this myself. However, I see it has while there is a choice to be made, the consequences are so dire nobody would make willingly make that choice(if it was proven you'd go to hell). Hence it's not really a choice.It made sense to me at least.

I don't think so. I've met more than a few people who have said that they would rather go to hell than bow down to a tyrannical god. In fact, I would imagine that more than a few people on this very website would agree with that sentiment.

Sort of like those three guys who refused to bow down to Nebuchadnezzar's statue. It's kind of ironic that you picked that example as an analogy of the lack of free will. Of course, the three guys were saved from the horrible fate that was supposed to await them, but that doesn't really matter because they didn't know they would be saved before hand.

I know that,I too would say the same thing. However, i meant if heaven and hell were clearly revealed to us as existing, which they  aren't. Since their is a extremly slim chance of christianity being true,others and I are willing to take that stance. What I meant was that if everyone was born with the undeniable knowledge of their(heaven's and hell's) existence,who in their right mind would pick hell?Hence they are forced to serve god,therefore no free will.

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

dudeofthemoment wrote:
This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.

Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.


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Loc wrote:I know that,I too

Loc wrote:

I know that,I too would say the same thing. However, i meant if heaven and hell were clearly revealed to us as existing, which they  aren't. Since their is a extremly slim chance of christianity being true,others and I are willing to take that stance. What I meant was that if everyone was born with the undeniable knowledge of their(heaven's and hell's) existence,who in their right mind would pick hell?Hence they are forced to serve god,therefore no free will.

I'm not sure I really enjoy that particular line of thinking. Essentially, you are saying that people who say that they would rather go to hell than serve the Christian god are lying. Unless you are suggesting that the *only* reason that these people detest the Christian god is because they dislike the fact that he refuses to reveal himself, then they must be lying, because that would be the only real difference. From what the ones I have spoken with have expressed, it's more of a matter of not wanting to bow down to a being that authorized and promoted the atrocities depicted in the Bible. You are calling these people either mad or liars.


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LosingStreak06 wrote:I'm not

LosingStreak06 wrote:

I'm not sure I really enjoy that particular line of thinking. Essentially, you are saying that people who say that they would rather go to hell than serve the Christian god are lying. Unless you are suggesting that the *only* reason that these people detest the Christian god is because they dislike the fact that he refuses to reveal himself, then they must be lying, because that would be the only real difference. From what the ones I have spoken with have expressed, it's more of a matter of not wanting to bow down to a being that authorized and promoted the atrocities depicted in the Bible. You are calling these people either mad or liars.

I'm not sure if we're seeing things very differently here, but I honestly don't get how I'm calling them liars.That wasn't my intention.

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

dudeofthemoment wrote:
This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.

Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.


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Loc wrote:LosingStreak06

Loc wrote:

LosingStreak06 wrote:

Loc wrote:
I understand what your saying,as I thought of this myself. However, I see it has while there is a choice to be made, the consequences are so dire nobody would make willingly make that choice(if it was proven you'd go to hell). Hence it's not really a choice.It made sense to me at least.

I don't think so. I've met more than a few people who have said that they would rather go to hell than bow down to a tyrannical god. In fact, I would imagine that more than a few people on this very website would agree with that sentiment.

Sort of like those three guys who refused to bow down to Nebuchadnezzar's statue. It's kind of ironic that you picked that example as an analogy of the lack of free will. Of course, the three guys were saved from the horrible fate that was supposed to await them, but that doesn't really matter because they didn't know they would be saved before hand.

I know that,I too would say the same thing. However, i meant if heaven and hell were clearly revealed to us as existing, which they  aren't. Since their is a extremly slim chance of christianity being true,others and I are willing to take that stance. What I meant was that if everyone was born with the undeniable knowledge of their(heaven's and hell's) existence,who in their right mind would pick hell?Hence they are forced to serve god,therefore no free will.

This is kind of a conundrum for theists. If god shows himself then faith is not required and we worship it as robots. If heaven and hell are exposed as real we would follow out of fear of punishment or hope for reward.

I would still pick hell because I could not be happy in heaven knowing that most people were in hell guilty of the only "unforgivable" sin, the lack of belief. This is one of the primary reasons I stopped believing. A christian friend told me once that he didn't know how he could be happy in heaven when most people, even people he loved, were suffering in hell. The bible says that there will be no tears in heaven so he just believes that god will somehow make it happen. The standard apologetic answer is exactly that of freewill. If someone chooses not to believe they have to face judgement, but there is another contigency in that people who have never heard of <insert savior's name here> face the same punishment as those who reject the notion. I fail to see the fairness in this with my mere mortal mind. Perhaps someone can enlighten me and correct my ignorance.   

"Always seek out the truth, but avoid at all costs those that claim to have found it" ANONYMOUS


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Is it just me or does The

Is it just me or does The Matrix: Reloaded have a great example of the lack of man's freewill? The scene is where Neo and the Oracle are sitting on the park bench and she offers Neo some candy. He looks at her surprised and say she all ready knows if he will take it or not. He took the candy of course. The oracle is all-knowing so it was destined to happen. He was going to take the candy, otherwise there would have been no offer.

I thought about this concept I have heard some christians talk about in that god does not make itself known to everyone and only a select few. However, some christians say that god makes itself known to everyone in some way in order for us to accept or reject it. This seems to be a contradiction, because either god attempts to woo all of us or just those that will accept the candy. I think Brian37 said something like, "if god knows what we'll do how can we have freewill?" I didn't get this concept until I watched this movie again. If god doesn't offer up the candy because it will rejected then we don't really have freewill, do we? It seems that this is just an example of fate. Am I crazy or does this make some sense?

"Always seek out the truth, but avoid at all costs those that claim to have found it" ANONYMOUS


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Cali_Athiest2 wrote:Is it

Cali_Athiest2 wrote:

Is it just me or does The Matrix: Reloaded have a great example of the lack of man's freewill? The scene is where Neo and the Oracle are sitting on the park bench and she offers Neo some candy. He looks at her surprised and say she all ready knows if he will take it or not. He took the candy of course. The oracle is all-knowing so it was destined to happen. He was going to take the candy, otherwise there would have been no offer.

I thought about this concept I have heard some christians talk about in that god does not make itself known to everyone and only a select few. However, some christians say that god makes itself known to everyone in some way in order for us to accept or reject it. This seems to be a contradiction, because either god attempts to woo all of us or just those that will accept the candy. I think Brian37 said something like, "if god knows what we'll do how can we have freewill?" I didn't get this concept until I watched this movie again. If god doesn't offer up the candy because it will rejected then we don't really have freewill, do we? It seems that this is just an example of fate. Am I crazy or does this make some sense?

Maybe it makes sense in a crazy way. I understand tough.It's fun to tell christians you can't help being a atheist because it's god's will.He knew you would turn out to be one, so you are actually following his plan.So their attempts to convert you are in direct conflict with his all knowing plan.It can get them in a knot.

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

dudeofthemoment wrote:
This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.

Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.


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Cali_Athiest2 wrote:This is

Cali_Athiest2 wrote:

This is kind of a conundrum for theists. If god shows himself then faith is not required and we worship it as robots. If heaven and hell are exposed as real we would follow out of fear of punishment or hope for reward.

I would still pick hell because I could not be happy in heaven knowing that most people were in hell guilty of the only "unforgivable" sin, the lack of belief.

I hear other atheists say this a lot and I think "What the fuck?" You would choose eternal torture because you could not be happy while other were being tortured?  so you would rather be unhappy that others were being tortured and be tortured along with them, for fucking eternity?

If there was a god, no matter how big of a prick he was or how much you hated him, it would be irrational to the point of idiocy to choose hell over heaven. Eternal torture lasts for a long time, you know, and then for a quite while after that, and then, after lunch break, well, it pretty much goes on forever.

“Philosophers have argued for centuries about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, but materialists have always known it depends on whether they are jitterbugging or dancing cheek to cheek" -- Tom Robbins


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Vessel wrote:Cali_Athiest2

Vessel wrote:

Cali_Athiest2 wrote:

This is kind of a conundrum for theists. If god shows himself then faith is not required and we worship it as robots. If heaven and hell are exposed as real we would follow out of fear of punishment or hope for reward.

I would still pick hell because I could not be happy in heaven knowing that most people were in hell guilty of the only "unforgivable" sin, the lack of belief.

I hear other atheists say this a lot and I think "What the fuck?" You would choose eternal torture because you could not be happy while other were being tortured?  so you would rather be unhappy that others were being tortured and be tortured along with them, for fucking eternity?

If there was a god, no matter how big of a prick he was or how much you hated him, it would be irrational to the point of idiocy to choose hell over heaven. Eternal torture lasts for a long time, you know, and then for a quite while after that, and then, after lunch break, well, it pretty much goes on forever.

Yeah, I guess I would. Eternity is a long time and we have no concept of what an eternity is so it does sound irrational I freely admit. I just question the ability of some to be content when they know that others are suffering so much. The 3 major mono-theistic religions seem to prey on the self-centered nature of human beings to look out for themselves and ignoring the suffering of others. I call the irrational fear of hell as buying "fire insurance" btw. Basically I do not see the point of hell in the first place. I am just unable to see the need for a place of unending torment because I don't have an infallible mind.

A christian friend of mine has even asked rather or not they could be happy in heaven while others suffer so this is not a unique point of view. Their view was that somehow god will make them happy and forget about their loved ones in agony. I guess I am just too empathetic to think I myself could be happy while even people I regarded as an "enemy" suffered. Oh well, the worst torture would be listening to all the christians who thought they didn't belong there bitchin about it.

My point was just like I stated originally, that like the first matrix mankind wouldn't accept the program because our nature seems to be defined by suffering. If we are given "perfection" what is there to strive for? What would've made satan and his followers want to rebel if they had everything they could want? If mankind where given the same option is there a point there would be a coup? This is just some of the shit I think about.

"Always seek out the truth, but avoid at all costs those that claim to have found it" ANONYMOUS


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LosingStreak06 wrote:fluffz

LosingStreak06 wrote:

fluffz wrote:

Is rape not rape if the rapist points a gun at you and politely asks you to undress?

Only if he's very charming about it. I could see, for example, Hugh Grant getting away with something like that.

Ofcourse, that's a self refuting argument as it would no longer be rape! Eye-wink
 

On the topic of free will, I don't see the need to try and argue against free will.
You go to a shop and have to make a decision between which sweet you like, you make a choice, that's free will in action.
That's what free will is.
I think people who point out metaphysical determinism are kind of missing the point.
When we talk about 'decisions' and 'choices' we're not talking about physical events.
We use language in all sorts of ways.
Decisions and choices aren't existing things, the same way tables and chairs are, or the same way that physical events are.
When you remember why you use words like 'decision' and 'choice' you remember what free will is and how we have it.

So many people seem to want to deny free will because of how some Christian apologists try and use it as an excuse for bullshit.
The fact is, even if we have free will their argument is bullshit, so you can attack their argument directly without having to attack free will.
Obvious counter examples include:
"If your child was walking off a cliff, would you drag them away to stop them killing themselves? But that would be violating free will - a sin so morally repugnant that God would see you burn in hell before he violated your free will!"

"Well, I know that I don't want to burn in hell, so I certainly won't be going there off my free will. If I end up there, God has definately violated my free will!"

The example above with the gun-threat/rape was also pretty good.


 


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He He I would chose hell

He He I would chose hell freely since I have a hell fetish LOL XP Seriously I would chose rather hell I have a hell fetish rehear then this empathic thing. However how is god capable of punishing me if I wont to go to hell ? Put me in heaven LOL.

Warning I’m not a native English speaker.

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